Ireland's greatest politian

spanner

guinnessdrinker wrote:

Maybe not a popular choice among some but I think Gerry Adams is a great politician. If only for the simple fact that there would be no peace in the north of Ireland without him. Himself and John Hulme started peace talks way back in 1988 I think it was! Hulme/Adams initiative I think it was called.

I do admire Gerry Adams as a person and as a politican. He is a true socialist unlike some of our current fat cat socialists. He came to my Home town recently. He was really nice, he visited the local activity centre and the GAA club, played a bit of hurling with the lads. He was really personable and made time to speak to everyone. He came to visit and there is not even an election been called yet. Alot different to the current leader who grace you with their presence in a whistle stop tour of the country during elections.

Rocker

spanner wrote:

I totally agree with what you said in this thread. He signed the death warrant for his best man, Rory O'Connor. I would not think he is the best politican that ireland has had because he did not live long enough. But he is the type of politican that we could do with today, a politican who will make the right decisions even if they are unpopular

Two points on this. First he was the second last person in the cabinet to agree to this. It wasn't his idea and he very reluctantly agreed to it in the end. It was only when he was convinced by Cosgrave and Mulcahny that it was vital for the survival of Irish democracy, which it may well have been because the anti-treaty IRA had begun a tactic of executing pro-treaty TDs, that he agreed to it. He also broke down in the Dail when he was defending it. He felt he had to defend it because it fell within his ministries jurisdiction and hence was his responsibility. He was involved in Irish politics for about eight years, which although it isn't that long a time, it's not that short either and it is a good few years more then people like Collins.

pork99

JohnnySideburns wrote:

(unlike that "Cut through rivers of blood" glory hunting American b*stard, you know who I'm talking about!!!!)

Yes they shot the wrong guy in 1922

Hermione*

Rocker wrote:

He was being ironic about the fact that he was always forced to make tough decision that weren't always popular. O'Higgins was a strong supporter of democracy and all his actions show that.

O'Higgins didn't do irony. He had great potential, but this is a man who had a long-standing affair while portraying himself as a devout Catholic. I'm not saying he was bad, but nowhere near great.

ateam wrote:

Maybe if you take away your current political loyalties and prejudiceness, you will see that Bertie Ahern has done great things for this country such as ending unemployment and emigration, improving standards of living dramatically, increasing the number of people going to third level education, the introduction of the smoking ban etc etc. Also, Bertie Ahern was instrumental in the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 and continues to work tirelessly on Northern matters.

Please don't get me started on Bertie Ahern. Please. The man has a pathological fear of decisions.

Rocker

Hermione* wrote:

O'Higgins didn't do irony. He had great potential, but this is a man who had a long-standing affair while portraying himself as a devout Catholic. I'm not saying he was bad, but nowhere near great.

Of course he did irony. Lines like that were a major part of O'Higgins brilliance. Also I wouldn't hold anything against him if he did have an affair, which is very debateable. I don't care what politicians do in their spare time.

nollaig

He had great potential, but this is a man who had a long-standing affair while portraying himself as a devout Catholic

Really? Never heard this. With who? Is like fact or rumour?

spanner

Rocker wrote:

Of course he did irony. Lines like that were a major part of O'Higgins brilliance. Also I wouldn't hold anything against him if he did have an affair, which is very debateable. I don't care what politicians do in their spare time.

one of the best quotes he said of the early 20s that really encapsulated the mood of the time was" we tried to form a governement with mad men screaming in the key hole"

I think his personal comments really do not relate to his political abilities

spanner

nollaig wrote:

Really? Never heard this. With who? Is like fact or rumour?

Its true, documentary on RTE recently with love letters and his family admitting it

spanner

Rocker wrote:

He felt he had to defend it because it fell within his ministries jurisdiction and hence was his responsibility. He was involved in Irish politics for about eight years, which although it isn't that long a time, it's not that short either and it is a good few years more then people like Collins.

I think what you are saying proves the point that he felt a deep sense of duty and when it came down to it he would do what was his duty. Also he established a new police force which was very different from the old model at a time that was very tumultus in Ireland.

racso1975

i would say Oscar Traynor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Traynor only shadow on career is being succeeded by Haughey but he cant help that

delta_bravo

Hogmeister B wrote:

Whoah, don't try too hard to convince us...

this man doesnt need convincing, lemass is the greatest irish politician without doubt

Prufrock

spanner wrote:

I think parnell was a great politican, in the sense he was very cunning and devious. He was well able to manipulate situations to his own end. However he really did not achieve anything tangable.

Nothing tangable? Right. Well he did completely reform the structure of the Home Rule League making it a serious entity in politics compaired to the joke it was beforehand. This gave Irish people a voice in Westminster and gave politicians the platform they needed for future success.

It was also because of him that the first Home Rule bill was introduced.

Mordecai

When Dev was great, he was great - pursuit of sovereignty and independance - but the negatives - Civil War and economics and social conservatism - outweigh his good deeds in my eyes, so I wouldn't support him.
I am a big supporter of Kevin O'Higgins - Balfour Declaration, stability of the state - ending the Civil War, justice system, gardaí - and one particular thing, he personally opposed censorship. Why did he never achieve martyr status? His death seems to have all the necessary ingredients.... Still, it wouldn't be fair to name him as our greatest politician.
That title must go to.......no-one. As a nation, we are most adept at producing flawed politicians who, while doing great things, always tarnish themselves by some other, often partisan things, which split the audience:
witness Haughey, Dev, Parnell, O'Connell, FitzGerald, all the 1916 heads, any republican since 1922 (that may be a controversial stance). Even Good Sir Jack (Lynch)'s reputation has been tinged by the arms crisis.
Flawed characters have been the best characters since Attic drama, so our history can at least always remain interesting.

The Long Fellow

Well certainly Henry Grattan, Grattan's parliament was an important step forward at the time.

O'Connell's work for emancipation was incredible and was the first time anyne had been able to harness the power of the masses of peasant's and use it for political change.
He was absoloutely against violence for the cause, but was brilliant at using such ambivilent language, so that te government got the impression that if it were necessary he might be changed, also he had the government believing (perhaps rightly) that he was the only thing standing in the way of anarchy.
The records of how disciplined the masses were during elections and the lack of drunkeness goes someway to back this up.

one thing that sometimes gets forgotten was that he was a staunch supporter of the crown, and was of the opinion that repeal of the union would infact strengthen relations.

I think the differences that eventually revealed themselves between him and the young irelanders was important.

But certainly he'd be high up my list!

Jackie laughlin

I find this a very strange thread. The choices reflect the politics of the participants and crucially their attitude to political violence. Quite a number of the nominees are reformed killers whose main claim to greatness is that they stopped killing.

I'm trying to think back but apart from the odd biography none of the nominees seems to have left anything resembling theory or vision. On that basis Edmund Burke is a notable omission.

Not a single socialist is mentioned. Any leader of the Labour Party in the 20th century is worth a mention as standing for civilised values and constitutionalism through times dominated by violence, Rome, the Irish bourgeoisie, isolationism, US domination and nowadays neo-liberalism.

Jackie laughlin

Wasn't someone on about Arthur Griffith and republicanism? He was a royalist!

The Long Fellow

O'Connoll was completely and utterly opposed to violence and bloodshed for the cause (except self defence, which never occurred during his period of influence) at time he used this on the government while not directly stating it, but implying that he was the only reason that revolt was suppressed, (well him & the catholic priests who were against a reckless revolt where wining was not even a possibility).

walrusgumble

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Wasn't someone on about Arthur Griffith and republicanism? He was a royalist!

Griffith was misunderstood. if ye can check out his articles in his newspapers. completly against the way the crown treated ireland, on many occassions his lanuage drew the attention of dublin castle and his experience during the boer war definitly changed whatever views he had on britain.. how could ya be loyal to the crown when ya propose boycotting taxes etc to the english piggie bank? (being lazy, self sufficency)

griffith relied on historical precedent when he came up with ideas, ye all know how he was heavily on the hugarian - austrian movement, so he thought i'll have a bit of that. he just thought duel monarchy was probaly the most acceptable solution britain would allow at the time. any way duel monarchy and dev's theory or external association really aint much different.

Griffith went to the gpo on easter monday 1916 with a rifle to volunteer his service. it was refused. he was in the irb. as for his pacifict stance, for himit was just for pratical reasons. he stood by the truce and 1922 constitution because he was a parliamentarian and the people had voted.

Capt'n Midnight

ateam wrote:

She stuck her nose in where it wasn't wanted...Irish presidents are supposed to be above politics and represent the country abroad in a positive manner.

If she hadn't won then the presidency would have been watered down to a purely ceremonial role by now. It's a vital part of our democracy, that the office can have some control of the Dail. It's not to be somewhere where politicians can have a cushy semi retirement.

As a comparison to royalty, we don't want a tourist attraction what we need is a role that can be used as for instance - Juan Carlos and the 1981 coup in Spain .

Garret was a statesman, we have so few of these even if you take the loosest definition of someone who looks beyond the next election. But overall not on the greatest short list, would have been a good president.

hard to tell if should include potential or compare what was done compared to what could have been done if circumstances had been different, "a rising tide lifts all boats" and I'm sick of hearing of how politicians surfing claim to have created the wave.

/puts thinking cap on for a while

walrusgumble

mary robinson was and is a fine politican/public figure.

she was in the thick of a majority of social changes that occurred during the 1970's-1980's eg gay rights, family planning & contraceptives, divorce (i think).

the last chap is dead on. people seem to ignore the president's role in artile 26 of the constitution. one thing is for sure as far as democracy is concerned we should be lucky as not many countries allow bills or laws to be challenged at either stage of the process.

she did well using article 26. just look at the other presidents, (fine men as they were) but sure it nearlly was always guaranteed that a bill would go through, on account of the fianna fail link. look what happened when cearbhall o daeligh (sorry mispelt) resigned.

incidently why were many people so against her over the years? surely it was not cause she was a woman?