The "free fees and books and stuff" thread.

Chinafoot

*Right folks as requested, here are the posts from the Halting Site thread which sparked a debate about the issue of library book and free fees, etc.

In order to keep the thread as coherent as possible I have quoted the original post by Blush in this post so you all know whats happening and where the posts came from.

This is because when posts are moved from another thread they appear in the order in which they were posted, i.e. Blush's post was posted this evening and therefore appears last on this thread and the other posts appear before hers....if you know what I mean *

Blush 01 wrote:

Free fees? Did anyone say balls?

Books? If you're loaded! (Or work really, really hard all summer and know that what you're buying week by week with your wages over said summer is an investment for work after college)

Stuff? MMhm, stuff.

This has sprung from the loins of the Halting Site thread. If Steph would be so good to syphon off the appropriate posts and put them here, that'd be great. If not, you lot are not so lazy that you can't peek in the other thread first, gosh-darn it! There's loads of stuff I won't even touch on. Sleep deprivation does that to you. But I will rant a bit. I'm good at that.

You all know the story about free fees. Some people get free-er fees than others. Which is ok within reason. However I hate certain foreign students who throw the fact that they pay through the nose to come here in our faces as though we owe them something because we were born here. Coming from the position of a grant-less student with a part-time job and a massive loan to cover my basic living expenses (rent, bills etc.) that won't be payed off until 2011 if I don't extend it so I can do my masters next year, I find the idea that people out there can work the system and get a grant, despite being well above the threshold, is disgusting. I know people who do it. I also think that it's disgraceful that certain people (watch out for the rant here) apply to the student hardship fund when their grant runs out rather than getting a job or a loan. I'm sorry, but to my mind that fund is there for people who suffer hardship, not lazy spongers. The grant system needs a total overhaul. People whose parents have split up assign their dependency to the less well-off parent while receiving support from both of them and the state, while people out there can barely afford to eat after they buy their bus ticket for the week and still don't get any support. I'm not in that position, but I know people who are - and the rest of you probably do to. Anyone else feel that it's at best a little bit ****ty, and at worst a downright farce?

A comment was made that taxation exists to spread the wealth, taking from the rich and giving to the poor. To that I say - that's a terrifically naive way of looking at things. Sure, there are things that we get that we would not get if there were no taxes. But do not think for a minute that there are not a million and one loopholes that the richest members of our society know of through which to avoid paying certain taxes, simply because they can. To avoid paying tax of any form you have to earn a pittance - barely enough to support one person, never mind a family.

As for the books thing... I buy my books in dribs and drabs. If I totted up how much I spent on college books I'd cry. It's probably close to a grand for last year and a bit over half that this year, as some of the books transferred across. And I could head off and spend another €400+ on books for my courses that I should have bought if I wanted to... But scanners are our friends. Scan, save, CD, computer. *Mwah* No messy printing of anything other than the essential bits. (I know I normally curse you, but sometimes Technology, you're my best friend.)

Here is the floor.

---

>

It is open.

Do you believe that students are neglecting Student Rights in the same way that the government appears to be? Is it a case of not rocking a boat that so many people are so comfortable careering gently down life's river in?

Let the "debate" begin.

AngelofFire

hmm im astonished.. this must be the fastest running thread in the history of this forum. Who`d have thought that the concerns about the outside posibility of a halting site on campus would take precedence over concerns about the re-introduction of tuition fees, the E800+ registration fee, the shamles of a grant system. the lack of copies of text books in the library, the lack of computer spaces, the lack of funding allocated to arts and human sciences subjects. If i was a PR Spindoctor the cynic in me would tell me that the best way to rally student support is to start rumours about a halting site on campus and come out in opposition to it.

The_Minister

Ok lets break this down to explain why we don't particularly care about these issues.

AngelofFire wrote:

the re-introduction of tuition fees,

Not on the political menu right now but it wouldn't be too bad an idea (if money used to improve grants)

AngelofFire wrote:

the E800+ registration fee,

Considering that you will earn hundreds of thousands extra during your life due to this education €800 is not much at all. Its a few weeks work. Do you care so little about your future that you will not do that?

AngelofFire wrote:

the shambles of a grant system.

This is bad but Hannafin said that she'll fix it (prob in the next government), so, no biggie. Its an inconvienience, nothing more, you get the money in the end.

AngelofFire wrote:

the lack of copies of text books in the library,

There are plenty of copies of most books, just go early and don't wait until the last minute. One librarian told me that they are having huge problems with core textbooks going "missing" for weeks, because people hide them or steal them. This is the fault of individual students.

AngelofFire wrote:

the lack of computer spaces,

Bebo. Blame Bebo.

AngelofFire wrote:

the lack of funding allocated to arts and human sciences subjects.

*Sigh* They get 8%. Thats true. Do you know why? Because research in these areas is cheaper. Unlike physics we don't need 5 Tesla magnets or like chemistry - super rare chemicals, or any of the other stuff. We give out questionaires. Thats alot cheaper.

AngelofFire wrote:

If i was a PR Spindoctor the cynic in me would tell me that the best way to rally student support is to start rumours about a halting site on campus and come out in opposition to it.

*Cough* Was that directed at me, or at politicians?

AngelofFire

*Cough* Was that directed at me, or at politicians?

Dont be so vain:rolleyes:

(Fees) Not on the political menu right now but it wouldn't be too bad an idea (if money used to improve grants)

Fees are far from being off the agenda. Its been just over 18 months since the OECD report which recommended the return of fees, the government backed down due to pressure from the student movement. However since then many influential think thanks affiliated to the irish government such as the national competitiveness council have recommended the return of tuition fees. I understand where you`re coming from with regards to improving the grant system, but there is already an apparatus in place which takes money from the better off and redistributes it to those who need it, its called taxation.

Considering that you will earn hundreds of thousands extra during your life due to this education €800 is not much at all. Its a few weeks work. Do you care so little about your future that you will not do that?

When the free fees scheme was introduced the reg fee was around IR£150 and exchequer spending on education as a percentage of GNP was higher than it is today. A reg fee of €800 does not constitute free education. Furthermore it puts severe pressure on students who do not receive financial support from their parents or students whos parents income is just above the grant eligibility threshold. If our universities are short of funding then the government should increase exchequer spending on education. if it means that i have to pay a few extra percentage points taxation when i graduate and get a full time Job then so be it.

This is bad but Hannafin said that she'll fix it (prob in the next government), so, no biggie. Its an inconvienience, nothing more, you get the money in the end.

Public representatives from Hanafin`s party have voted against motions at Co council level to centralise the grants system. The prospect of having to wait at least another two years to sort it out offers little comfort to students who in the mean time have to make do with €35.50 per week to cover the cost of books, travel accomodation etc, and thats if its delivered on time.

There are plenty of copies of most books, just go early and don't wait until the last minute.

Thats unrealistic particularily if there is 4 copies of a certain text book to go around between a class of +300 all of whom have to submit an assignment based on that text at the same time. This is a regular occourance btw.

Bebo. Blame Bebo

We`ve had long Qs for computers long before most people even heard of Bebo, so i doubt that thats the main source of the problem. Also If the college wants to ban one non academic site, its going to have to ban them all. The solution is more computer spaces.

*Sigh* They get 8%. Thats true. Do you know why? Because research in these areas is cheaper. Unlike physics we don't need 5 Tesla magnets or like chemistry - super rare chemicals, or any of the other stuff. We give out questionaires. Thats alot cheaper.

You are correct about the higher costs put on research in science subjects, however, the fact that many subjects had to cutback on and in some cases cancel tutorials due to lack of funding is an indictment on the university`s record in providing necessary funding to arts and human sciences.

Jonny Arson

Firespinner wrote:

Ok lets break this down to explain why we don't particularly care about these issues.

Dunno where you've got ''we'' from there. AngelofFire is spot on with what he says.

AngelofFire wrote:

the re-introduction of tuition fees,

Firespinner wrote:

Not on the political menu right now but it wouldn't be too bad an idea (if money used to improve grants)

Freezing a huge proportion of students out of 3rd level education, putting massive amount of debt of on graduates on top of unpayable minimum 500k mortgages, resulting in a less educated workforce thus leading to an economic downturn in future decades.... I'd be wanting to get a 8k grant at minimum in that case

AngleofFire wrote:

the E800+ registration fee,

Firespinner wrote:

Considering that you will earn hundreds of thousands extra during your life due to this education €800 is not much at all. Its a few weeks work. Do you care so little about your future that you will not do that?

We are students, E800 is a huge proportion of money from part-time work unless mummy and daddy are paying the bills. This fee has risen by astronomical standards in the past few years way above the rate of inflation. A rise in this will only put increased pressure on hard up students.

AngleofFire wrote:

the shambles of a grant system.

Firespinner wrote:

This is bad but Hannafin said that she'll fix it (prob in the next government), so, no biggie. Its an inconvienience, nothing more, you get the money in the end.

Would you say this to student who needs this money on time to pay for rent, food etc.? The grants system has been a sheer disaster for the past number of years. Late payments after late payments, it's taking too long for this to be sorted out and simply is another representation of this incompetent government.

AngleofFire wrote:

the lack of copies of text books in the library,

Firespinner wrote:

There are plenty of copies of most books, just go early and don't wait until the last minute. One librarian told me that they are having huge problems with core textbooks going "missing" for weeks, because people hide them or steal them. This is the fault of individual students.

Nonsense. I've experienced cases of 3 core text books to be shared between 150+ students, 10 core text books being shared between 500+ students... that is an absolute disgrace for a university of our size and supposed ''world class standards''. Students have essays to do and exams to study for, core textbooks should always be easily accessable at all times. There will never be a case of a core textbook being available for every student but the lack of textbooks IMO is putting students courses and degrees in serious danger of failing. Yes books go missing now and again but this is a minority, very unfair to label all students in this category and to put the blame on the majority.

AngleofFire wrote:

the lack of computer spaces,

Firespinner wrote:

Bebo. Blame Bebo.

I dunno how many computers are on campus but all you have to do is look at in the Daedalus or the Library to realize the lack of computers to be shared between 22,000 students is a sheer disgrace. Was bebo the reason they got rid of computers in the Daedalus? I don't think so.

rainbow kirby

AngelofFire wrote:

Who`d have thought that the concerns about the outside posibility of a halting site on campus would take precedence over concerns about the re-introduction of tuition fees, the E800+ registration fee, the shamles of a grant system. the lack of copies of text books in the library, the lack of computer spaces, the lack of funding allocated to arts and human sciences subjects.

Amen.
This is what the Student's Union should be focusing on, the important issues that affect students from day to day. And it's blatantly obvious that the college and government need to concentrate on rectifying these problems.

boneless

They're too long to read. Can someone summarise for me?

Pythia

e800 is nothing. I'd make that in 3 weeks, and I'm the same as the rest of you. I'm doing 20 hours a week or more in a shop every week.
Luckily I pay no fees due to special circumstances, mu ha ha. Books are cheaper too.
I'd say a lot of people who aren't going to college aren't going because of deeper social issues than just the e800 'fee'.

And Angel of Fire, you obvious don't pay attention to local issues as this halting site issue has been on the cards for years, it's not some PR spin thing.

humbert

It different if your trying to pay rent too.

Pythia

humbert wrote:

It different if your trying to pay rent too.

I made 15k last year from working part time in a shop, full time in the summer. So let's say 6k on rent (500/month) plus another 3k on bills, food etc, that's still loads for books, fees and going out.

Hermione*

I don't think I know anyone who's made that much from a part-time/summer job! My little sis used to work in Dad's office for the summers (she wasn't hired by him, but he did help her get the job), and i think she made about about €3000 max over four months. And she had a well-paying job with little tax taken, since she didn't work during the year. Most students are not going to earn that much.

humbert

15k is pretty good for a part time job and I'd say I spend a good bit more than that on food, bills etc but tbh less on rent. I'm not suggesting it's impossible but it not 'nothing'.

Sangre

One of our assigned books is €320. Law books usually average around €130 minimum. Thats a lot of money, so I just don't buy them. Thats what the library for. Sure the 320 book can be hard to get, so if I want it I just get up very early and get it on reserve or short term.

A lot of people don't have time to work 20 hours a week.

Ernie Ball

One might have more sympathy for UCD students if the average one didn't spend a small fortune every week on drink. Go out less and you'll find that the books become magically affordable.

I know: it's not in the culture, etc. etc. Maybe it's time that changed. Or do you expect the taxpayers to subsidise your partying indefinitely?

rainbow kirby

Hermione* wrote:

I don't think I know anyone who's made that much from a part-time/summer job! My little sis used to work in Dad's office for the summers (she wasn't hired by him, but he did help her get the job), and i think she made about about €3000 max over four months. And she had a well-paying job with little tax taken, since she didn't work during the year. Most students are not going to earn that much.

I'll make roughly that much this year, from working 16-20 hours a week during the college year and working both a full-time internship and a part-time job over the summer. However, I need to do it as I've got to pay fees! I will have paid back the last €2000 of my fees loan from this year, plus the €6000 I reckon I'll be paying for next year's fees out of that. That's more than half the money gone straight away before I spend a single cent on anything else. And once that's paid, I have to start saving up so that I can give up work for 4th year...

Jonny Arson

Pythia wrote:

e800 is nothing. I'd make that in 3 weeks, and I'm the same as the rest of you. I'm doing 20 hours a week or more in a shop every week.
Luckily I pay no fees due to special circumstances, mu ha ha. Books are cheaper too.
I'd say a lot of people who aren't going to college aren't going because of deeper social issues than just the e800 'fee'.

Don't take this personally but if you think most students earn the same amount as you (15k a year) then you're living in the clouds. Fair play to you that you work 20 hours a week with college on top of all that, you are very lucky to have an extremely well paid part time job but you're in the vast minority of students who earn this amount. To put your earnings into perspective: there are people who I work with who have degrees, trained for their job, work 40 hours a week and get paid 22k a year. I myself have worked a fair amount over the past 12 months and I've earned about 5k at max and I would estimate thats above the average annual earnings for a student working part-time.

In consideration of the registration fee, rent, travel, books, food, and socialising etc people need to remember that students do have degrees to study for and simply many students can't commit to to 20 hours per week or else it would be course suicide. Also from what I see (and many other students see too) it's becoming increasingly difficult for students to find part-time work. I believe that this partially due to companies cutting back on staff and displacement of part-time working students from jobs that have been taken up by immigrants from the new EU states since 2004. With all of these factors, the E800 or so annual fee which will be rising due to a white elephant of a student centre and government increases is an extortionate amount for a student to pay no matter how much you break it down. Simply, not everyone is wealthy.

and lets not even get into the consequences for many students if free-fees were abolished.

Dave!

^
I'd drop out in they were abolished. Not worth paying ridiculous money for a qualification.

And I'm sure that'd be the attitude of alot of people (who aren't landed gentry)

Blowfish

DaveMcG wrote:

^
I'd drop out in they were abolished. Not worth paying ridiculous money for a qualification.

And I'm sure that'd be the attitude of alot of people (who aren't landed gentry)

Yep, same here, I simply wouldn't be able to afford to go to college if it wasn't for free fees, and the mainenance grant. I could have actually managed to get more for the grant if I had applied for the New Era scheme, but I decided not to, and to get into UCD under my own steam.

Dave!

Blowfish wrote:

Yep, same here, I simply wouldn't be able to afford to go to college if it wasn't for free fees, and the mainenance grant. I could have actually managed to get more for the grant if I had applied for the New Era scheme, but I decided not to, and to get into UCD under my own steam.

We were JUST outside the parameters for receiving the grant!

grrg!!! :mad:

The_Minister

DaveMcG wrote:

I'd drop out in they were abolished. Not worth paying ridiculous money for a qualification.

It would be better for the country and the education system if you dropped out, then tbh. The problem is that free fees allows people to go to college who don't want to go to college, but just go because it is "expected". If you want to go to college then you should be willing to work for the oppurtunity. D4's who don't know what or why they do these things ruin the education system. People do degrees that they don't use because they don't know what to do with their lives and it is the biggest waste of taxpayers money


end rant.

DaveMcG wrote:

And I'm sure that'd be the attitude of alot of people (who aren't landed gentry)

You could always get a loan and job.

elmyra

I wasn't getting involved in this thread because I have conflicted thoughts with regard to it, but I do think it's a terrible thing to say that free fees should be abolished on the basis that some people who come to college with their aid don't study or don't use their degree. The fact is if they weren't there, college would be out of reach for a lot of people which is far worse for the country and the economy, because we need a well educated workforce.

Work and loans? Sometimes it wouldn't cover it and not everybody is an arts bum like me and my ilk, some courses are very prohibitive toward employment. As the situation stands, some people already do, but you shouldn't have to get into debt to get an education either.

Scraggs

Ok Firespinner what you are saying is just not on at all! Seriously, I actually cant believe it... :mad:

If there were no free fees I wouldnt be here [like many others here I'd say] because I just simply couldnt afford it. And I would really want to be.

You could always get a loan and job.

I already have two jobs to pay for it...what was it you said to me before about that 'only single mothers have have two jobs' ha not true:MAD:. I really want to be here to get on and make something of my life. I'm sure I could do that without a degree if it was necessary but still I think I have a right to a relatively free education. I think that EVERYONE should be given a right to third level education rich poor whatever, yes even those ''D4's who don't know what or why...''

/rant
I have to end it there coz I'm not being coherent I'll come back and repost when I've calmed down

The_Minister

Just FYI for everyone, my family is not rich and would be hard-pressed to pay fees, but damn we'd manage!

rainbow kirby

DaveMcG wrote:

We were JUST outside the parameters for receiving the grant!

grrg!!! :mad:

When I checked out the stuff in 1st year I realised my parents earned about €1500 over the grant limit.
Never bothered checking again, and now I *can't* apply again until I'm in 4th year. However, I just happen to turn 23 that summer, I wonder could I be classified as a mature student? Never actually applied before so there's no status to change.. so maybe?

The_Minister

Scraggs wrote:

I already have two jobs to pay for it...

How much of that goes on clothes, beer etc.?

Scraggs wrote:

what was it you said to me before about that 'only single mothers have have two jobs' ha not true:MAD: .

I don't remember saying that but LOL!

Sangre

Firespinner wrote:

Just FYI for everyone, my family is not rich and would be hard-pressed to pay fees, but damn we'd manage!

Well you managed to pay fees for St. Michael's so somehow I'll think you'd manage.

elmyra

Firespinner wrote:

How much of that goes on clothes, beer etc.?

Patronising much? You shouldn't have to give up on a social life to be educated, and I'm one of those crazy non-drinker people so no I'm not just up in arms because you've insulted my good friend alcohol or anything.

The abolition of free fees is totally unjustifiable. If Scraggs has two jobs then you should be congratulating her for juggling them both and college and managing to go out, not asking her what she spends it on.

Blowfish

Firespinner wrote:

Just FYI for everyone, my family is not rich and would be hard-pressed to pay fees, but damn we'd manage!

There are a hell of a lot of people who are in the same situation as me in that my family simply wouldn't be able to afford it, no matter what happened. I had a job, but didn't have enough time for it so had to give it up for the semester. I'm living off my previous earnings and by the end of the exams will be completely broke. And no I don't spend much on going drinking (I am a nerd after all ). I have a grand total of about 40 euro, and thats only because I found 20 the other day, and some of it will be going on friday.
There is no way i would have been able to come to college if it wasn't free fees. I know loads in my course who are in the same situation, and none of them 'don't know what or why they do these things'.

rainbow kirby

elmyra wrote:

The abolition of free fees is totally unjustifiable. If Scraggs has two jobs then you should be congratulating her for juggling them both and college and managing to go out, not asking her what she spends it on.

There's a particular kind of right-wing conservative that's obsessed with people not having any fun... I think we've found one!

The_Minister

Sangre wrote:

Well you managed to pay fees for St. Michael's so somehow I'll think you'd manage.

College was significantly more.


BTW I do not believe in any "right" to 3rd level education, I believe it is a privilage.

The_Minister

I just realised I forgot the "use the revenue to improve and raise the grant level" part.