Suitable Programming to learn

Bob the Builder

Hey every1,

I have been living literally "on the internet" for two years, web designing for 7/8 months and I believe programming is the thing for me, however I dont want to go to college and get bogged down by work so I want to beginning learning the programming language at an early age (p.s. I am only 13yrs).

My main question is simply:
what programming language(or job to do with web design) would you reccommend that I learn

My other q's would be
Is it a good job? will there be good pay? do I need/want college?
Do I need or have to go to america to get the job or can I stay in Ireland?What aspect in relation to freelance does it mean

I am designing a website for a club that I am with and through it, I have learned the ins, outs & cons of web design
Tell me what you think
Mayo.Wheelers

bpmurray

Don't confuse a little web experience with an education: if you want a well-paying job, you will need a degree, preferably a masters. Don't kid yourself that some cool experience can substitute for this.

Learn software engineering: this is essentially how to use programming languages and other software techniques to provide a solution. You should expect to be fluent in at least two programming languages, and to really understand these, you should have a thorough knowledge in how the CPU works, which requires a good knowledge of assembly.

On the other hand, if you want to learn web development, you should focus on presentaiton, i.e. on media/multimedia/design, rather than the techy side of things. Any oul eejit can throw together some DHTML, but doing it right isn't easy: this does not include creating a web page with a vile green background!

It doesn't matter where you study, although it's obvious that a degree from Harvard or MIT will be worth more to you than one from DIT (no insult to DIT'ers, it's just the way things are).

As for which languages to learn, first try well-structured DHTML, i.e. XHTML, object-oriented JavaScript, css, etc; then go for C# and/or Java; C and C++. , etc. You're young enough to learn them all quickly.

seamus

Indeed, what bpmurray says is true - don't think you can just teach yourself and you'll be sorted by the time you're 20. You are young, and if you stick with it, you'll be leagues ahead of your peers by the time you get to college. However, without a solid portfolio of work, or a piece of paper to back you up it's pointless.

Carry on with the web work, and as said, focus on XHTML and onto DHTML. If you can get someone to buy you some decent books (the reviews on Amazon.co.uk are usually spot on) on the topics, that's where you can learn how to be good.
Any joe can (and does) teach themselves how to write websites. Being good at it requires more than just figuring it out for yourself.

In terms of programming, I too would recommend going for a language that's not strictly for the Internet - so C++, C# or Java. These are tough to learn without books or tuition, but in learning them, you learn how to code well. Again, don't rely on "just figuring it out". Writing good code is the difference between a fast, secure and impressive program, and a slow, insecure and buggy one.

Once you're comfortable with programming, you can look at combining programming with the web. Good web programmers need to know a little more then just programming and HTML. You need to know about server differences, protocol headers, connection dynamics, browser nuances - pretty much a little bit about everything.

By the time you hit the workforce, the Internet and coding for it will have changed quite dramatically, so it's tough to tell you what to do know.

MrScruff

First you haven't "been living literally on the internet for two years" unless your a lost packet or something.

Pedantic nonsense aside, I think you should try Python [www.python.org]
if you want a language that is fun and easy to get started in (not that it lacks power)

Python for non-programmers would be a great start:

http://honors.montana.edu/~jjc/easytut/easytut/

And Python for beginners:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide

Of course you don't have to go to America, but alot of the jobs are in
Dublin.

What aspect in relation to freelance does it mean

Why for you don't have anything to drink?


*Disclaimer* This career will turn you into a bitter misanthrope *Disclaimer*

Bob the Builder

Thanks
I agree that I should not confuse experience with knowledge and between the two of you, ye' both answered my questions, I like web design and I know that it isnt easy learn the programming

Thanks for the links,
Whats ruby on rails like as a language?
Thanks for your help,
Nev

Dar

nevf wrote:

Thanks
I agree that I should not confuse experience with knowledge and between the two of you, ye' both answered my questions, I like web design and I know that it isnt easy learn the programming

Thanks for the links,
Whats ruby on rails like as a language?
Thanks for your help,
Nev

Ruby on Rails is a framework built on the Ruby programming language. Don't go near frameworks if your goal is to learn, they hide the low level stuff from you. PHP would be a much better choice. Like seamus I'd recommend you try learning a non web-oriented language like C or Java first.

akari no ryu

Dar wrote:

Ruby on Rails is a framework built on the Ruby programming language. Don't go near frameworks if your goal is to learn, they hide the low level stuff from you. PHP would be a much better choice. Like seamus I'd recommend you try learning a non web-oriented language like C or Java first.

If you're going to learn PHP. Learn Object Oriented PHP. I am sick to death of trying to figure out what's going on in procedural PHP that has no comments. That said, there's worse. I've seen "object oriented" php where there's a "main handler class" which takes a float as an argument to the constructor, the constructor then switches on this argument and does all of the work for that. As a result of this, the constructor is 17000 lines long. There's also no correlation between the float and the task done.

Cake Fiend

If you're serious about programming, learn C. Most modern languages have similarites to C to varying degrees, and C will make you learn about programming the hard way Something like PHP is very easy to pick up, but will teach you bad programming habits. Ultimately, you'll want to work your way up to Java or <insert future common language here>.

Learning C can be frustrating, but if you can put up with it, you'll know that programming is for you.

randomname

Learn C first. As previous poster said it can be frustrating but if you can master C then you'll pick other languages as you go along.

akari no ryu

Sico wrote:

If you're serious about programming, learn C. Most modern languages have similarites to C to varying degrees, and C will make you learn about programming the hard way Something like PHP is very easy to pick up, but will teach you bad programming habits. Ultimately, you'll want to work your way up to Java or <insert future common language here>.

Learning C can be frustrating, but if you can put up with it, you'll know that programming is for you.

I'm curious as to what bad habits you think you'll pick up in PHP that you won't pick up in any other language.
Also, if you're gonna learn an old-school programming language, I'd recommend PERL as it has pretty much always had Object Orientation

democrates

I taught myself >90% of my programming skills, as a degree was beyond my social background (back in the day). In work I easily outcoded guys with degrees, but that was only because I was at it for longer (thanks to Clive Sinclair) multiplied by advantages that being in mensa implies. So not a fair comparison.

I would strongly recommend you get a degree. It took years of hard graft and a couple of thousand quid on IT books and magazines to teach myself, and even now without that piece of paper I couldn't get a job or do contracts easily within my abilities because I'd get filtered out before interview invitations are despatched. Hence I've had to become self-employed to move forward. (ironic that I can easily fulfill contracts with people who only care if I can deliver what they want! /chip)

A good IT degree provides an excellent foundation. I almost did Comp. Sc. in DCU as my employer offered me a scholarship, but I passed internal exams and interviews and took a lucrative job as systems analyst instead so I could buy a house (glad I did, that was '92....).

But those oppertunities to get a job based on pure ability are scarce, look around the recruitment sites at the best paying jobs and contracts, the better the degree, the better the shoe-in, all else being equal.

Even if you want to go into business a degree is still generally the best way forward. A good one will reassure venture capitalists, the bank manager, your customers, and partners. Colleges now have incubator units offering all kinds of supports and contacts to help entreprenurial graduates launch companies, there have been some great success stories and this will only get better.

Make that your foundation plan is my advice. If in parallel you develop your capabilities, hit on a business idea and are able to execute it, go for it. Bill Gates dropped out of college early precisely because he recognised the timing was critical to launch micro-soft. (anyone else see 'triumph of the nerds'? I admit I bought the dvd)

As for a programming language, php would be my current favourite because it's easy to learn and will allow you to have a lot of fun quickly building web applications. Whatever language you choose, get a book on it that teaches good coding practice (eg check out booklists for IT degree students).

One area programmers often gloss over is databases. Don't. Dive into it, and learn how to store your data in a relational database. "Know you data, know your code". Finally, when you get the time it would do no harm to check out 2600 magazine to gain an appreciation of hacking and also the security forum here on boards.

Good luck in any event, and enjoy.

Cake Fiend

akari no ryu wrote:

I'm curious as to what bad habits you think you'll pick up in PHP that you won't pick up in any other language

Werl, I'm thinking more along the lines of getting used to PHP, then moving to another language such as C++ or Java. E.g. your average PHP script has no declaration of variables (and obviously no initialization at the time of declaration). Also, PHP is very lax about variable types which is handy for the programmer, but can make debugging more confusing and would most likely cause bugs in other languages. The transparency with which strings can be manipulated might cause confusion in other languages, particularly if you had to do some string-work in C :eek:

If you're sticking with PHP forever, then you're grand.

NutJob

Bp Murphy and Seamus are right. College is a steeping stone two to be honest you never finish learning even after college.


One thing College does do is let you touch on a lot of areas you may never see in industry.

Iv been programming since i was 14 back when x86 assembler was my first langugae and with a good degree can still be tough to find work.

Plus the learning curve keeps getting steeper even after college but you get better at learning :-)

I will say this start learning what you can now it helps and costs nothing with opensource compilers a e.g. Dev C++ or anything on the linux platfrom (plus google search).

If you are interested in a career in developement i only know one programmer who is working in a developement enviorment without a degree.
But she is not acheaving the pay scale or given the oportunites someone with her standard of work would normally get.

MrScruff

I'd recommend PERL as it has pretty much always had Object Orientation

OO was added to perl in version 5


If it's web programming your interested in I'd second PHP.

Install something like XAMPP
and you have the perfect environment for mucking around.
It gives you an Apache webserver with PHP,Perl and MySQL configured.

Or alternatively:

1. Install Ruby on Rails
2. Create Web 2.0 site with Tagging and AJAX
3. ???
4. Profit!

Bob the Builder

I hav been thinkin bout learning PHP for a while but I never really touched on it, I was thinkin about learning Ruby on Rails but yee have strongly advised me against it

PHP is the one I am going to try to familiarise myself with for the moment but I will learn C as well.

What are Python and AJAX like and wat are they for? Thanks

TempestSabre

nevf wrote:

....
I am designing a website for a club that I am with and through it, I have learned the ins, outs & cons of web design
Tell me what you think
Mayo.Wheelers

Never have broken links
http://www.mayowheelers.com/about.php

Look at what the good jobs are looking for, then try and attain those skills.

ntlbell

seamus wrote:

Indeed, what bpmurray says is true - don't think you can just teach yourself and you'll be sorted by the time you're 20. You are young, and if you stick with it, you'll be leagues ahead of your peers by the time you get to college. However, without a solid portfolio of work, or a piece of paper to back you up it's pointless.

Nonsene really, most of the best coders and the highest paid coders I know have no 3rd level education.

scojones

ntlbell wrote:

Nonsene really, most of the best coders and the highest paid coders I know have no 3rd level education.

Reread what seamus said. They must have a solid portfolio of work then.

ntlbell

sjones wrote:

Reread what seamus said. They must have a solid portfolio of work then.

Ah, I misread the last part.

*goes back to scool*

Bob the Builder

I have a lot of missing links, its just a matter of getting down to do them......
I am now trying to covert the website to CSS instead of table alignment...