No to a Eurostate

Dirk Gently

Far Corfe wrote:

Europe was the most united its ever been in the summer of 1942. United Europe was a Nazi invention, still is. We have tied ourselves to a corpse.

:rolleyes: yawn
I propose a forum for delusional people to discuss above related ideas.

New_Departure06

I call bull****. My definition of union doesn't include a further three years of bloody and horrific war to undo the "unification" of the previous three. Europe is the most united it's ever been right now, and there's no fascism (or any other form of totalitarianism) in sight.

There is no democracy in forcing people into being "united". Yes we had our referenda (though we were asked until we gave the 'right' answer regarding Nice), but look at how the vast majority of EU states passed the EU Constitution through parliament without a referendum. Public opinion in most EU countries would have voted No judging by polls. Whether you think European unity is a good thing or not, surely the public of Europe should be asked their opinions?

Remember that we were forced into another union in 1800 and we ended up with a Famine.

The_Minister

clown bag wrote:

:rolleyes: yawn
I propose a forum for delusional people to discuss above related ideas.

Its called paranormal *bang*

BuffyBot

Remember that we were forced into another union in 1800 and we ended up with a Famine.

Not really seeing the similarity here. Except that you could describe them both as "unions"..

The Corinthian

New_Departure06 wrote:

The context is one where the "demos" is considered the nation rather than the peoples of Europe being one entity. The demos is losing power to bring certain policies to fruition by voting in their home countries. That is my criticism.

I think you should clarify this as it presently sounds suspiciously like pseudo-intellectual ****.

To a certain degree in the past, membership of a trading bloc may have justified some of this in the past e.g. agriculture, but it should not encroach any further. Otherwise Dail Eireann will be a rubber stamp like the National Peoples Congress in Beijing.

The EU is not simply a trading bloc. This has long been democratically accepted.

oscarBravo

New_Departure06 wrote:

The context is one where the "demos" is considered the nation rather than the peoples of Europe being one entity.

Again, you're arbitrarily deciding the frame for the discussion. What makes a nation a more valid unit of demarcation than a continent? Or, for that matter, than a village?

[edit: oh look, TC put it better than I could have.]

dRNk SAnTA

Sounds like theres far too much intellectualising going on at the moment. Seems like some people intentionally leave their points void of substance/reality.

For me, although I consider myself pro-european, I don't find the prospect of further integration with the EU attactive.

I definitely don't go along with 'the eu has never been so peaceful so lets just go along with whatever they want'. That sounds like hippie crap to me. What puts me off the EU at the moment is this whole business about tax harmonisation. Ireland has spectacularly led the way in modern economics with our proactive tax rates, but if france and germany had their way, they would drag us into recession with them. Rather than reform they would prefer stop Ireland from competing with them for investment.

An example of this practice has already taken place last year when Ireland was not allowed to offer Intel incentives to open a new facility here. Even though no other EU country was trying to attract this investment we were prohibited from offering the incentives so the jobs didn't come to the EU at all. That is bull**** i think. Although the current tax harmonisation being proposed now is optional and lightweight - its just the start.

I don't know what further benefits Ireland can receive from getting more involved with the EU. Ireland would be too easily forgotten in favour of the larger countries - i am not prepared to have Ireland economic policy dictated to us by the same people who've let france and germany become the basetcases that they are.

Of course change is a way of life - but Ireland can best change if it is in control of its own destiny, reacting quickly and make its own decisions. We need to think about number 1 here.

New_Departure06

dRNk SAnTA is right. I too consider myself pro-European. But there is a difference between being a friend and a sycophant. Those who argue we have to vote for anything EU that is fed to us just to be good Europeans are advocating sycophancy. Sometimes a friend gives tough advice that basically they are wrong about something. As a friend of the EU then, I would say that they are wrong on the EU Constitution. It's time for Bertie to stop parroting support for a dead Constitution. It has been rejected by the Dutch and French voters. Under EU rules it cannot come into force without all of the countries in the EU agreeing. So it's dead, unless some genious has the idea of daring to ask them again, and again, and again...I don't think the French will be so easily bullied compared to us.

I think the Irish people need to be more questioning of the motives of those among the elites who are pressing us to pass EU treaties for the sake of it.

Dirk Gently

New_Departure06 wrote:

dRNk SAnTA is right. I too consider myself pro-European. But there is a difference between being a friend and a sycophant. Those who argue we have to vote for anything EU that is fed to us just to be good Europeans are advocating sycophancy. Sometimes a friend gives tough advice that basically they are wrong about something. As a friend of the EU then, I would say that they are wrong on the EU Constitution. It's time for Bertie to stop parroting support for a dead Constitution. It has been rejected by the Dutch and French voters. Under EU rules it cannot come into force without all of the countries in the EU agreeing. So it's dead, unless some genious has the idea of daring to ask them again, and again, and again...I don't think the French will be so easily bullied compared to us.

I think the Irish people need to be more questioning of the motives of those among the elites who are pressing us to pass EU treaties for the sake of it.

I agree with alot of the points you make. I'm not mad about European policy. Not mad about Irish policy either. Ireland has a lot of influence in Europe, much more than you would imagine a nation of our size would have.
I just don’t think to pull out of the E.U. is a good answer especially if other countries unite more leaving us out.
In theory im not opposed to a united Europe, but the current model that we have doesn’t work well. It did benefit us in the past though when we were the poor members in the euro family. I would rather see a Europe united on high standards in human rights / workers rights / environmental policies and equality and would rather work towards achieving this than giving up on the whole united Europe project and going down a protectionist / isolationist road. If the point of this thread is to reject the european constitution as it stands and work towards a better solution then I agree but cant see an advantage in backing out of the E.U. and going it alone.

dathi1

and there's no fascism (or any other form of totalitarianism) in sight.

Trivial as it may be another example of Fascist Brussels dictating how we should live http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/10/wake10.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/04/10/ixworld.html

Remember the catch phrase!! Vote for Nice...Vote for Jobs! ah...yeah like in Moneypoint? Irish Ferries etc etc.. A major Black Immigrant economy costing the tax payer millions...Race to the bottom Infrastructure grinding to a halt..

Oh and remember..Dick Roche, De Rosa et al....eastern block immigration will be a trickle. I expect no more than 2000-3000 people a year.

Boll.ox.

dathi1

Ireland has a lot of influence in Europe, much more than you would imagine a nation of our size would have.

If that was the case we could have forced the French to re run the EU Federal Superstate Constitution until they said yes....just like Nice2. Speaking of which...someone stated above " there's no fascism (or any other form of totalitarianism) in sight"

New_Departure06

I see the hand of big business in driving the Eurofederalist agenda. Idealistic language about "ending the divisions of Europe" or "uniting Europe" may come from the lips of some members of the elites. But at the end of the day, it is obvious what is really going on.

The Corinthian

New_Departure06 wrote:

I see the hand of big business in driving the Eurofederalist agenda. Idealistic language about "ending the divisions of Europe" or "uniting Europe" may come from the lips of some members of the elites. But at the end of the day, it is obvious what is really going on.

Are you going to suggest that the Elders of Zion are secretly behind the Big Business Conspiracy next or are you actually going to grace us with a relevant, rational argument?

New_Departure06

The Corinthian wrote:

Are you going to suggest that the Elders of Zion are secretly behind the Big Business Conspiracy next or are you actually going to grace us with a relevant, rational argument?

TC please do not put words in my mouth. I didn't mention the Jews nor would I! Where did that come from. :eek:

What has come from thr Tribunals I think has made everyone cynical about the motives of politicians on many issues in this country and I think we have a right to wonder about their motivations for all sorts of decisions in that context.

I also feel that many national politicians engage in groupthink while in the halls of Brussels. Anxious to be on good terms with their French, German etc. friends, they are more inclined to be taken in by their ideas. The desire to win approval from their peers in the corridors of power in other EU countries perhaps clouds their better judgement.

The Corinthian

New_Departure06 wrote:

TC please do not put words in my mouth. I didn't mention the Jews nor would I! Where did that come from. :eek:

It came from the concept of satire. I was poking fun at your capacity for unsubstantiated and conspiratorial innuendo.

What has come from thr Tribunals I think has made everyone cynical about the motives of politicians on many issues in this country and I think we have a right to wonder about their motivations for all sorts of decisions in that context.

Being cynical and suspicious is one thing, but you’ve taken it a step further and made the assumption that it must be entirely about ulterior motives. This is quite a jump in logic from the initial cynicism of the motives of politicians.

I also feel that many national politicians engage in groupthink while in the halls of Brussels. Anxious to be on good terms with their French, German etc. friends, they are more inclined to be taken in by their ideas. The desire to win approval from their peers in the corridors of power in other EU countries perhaps clouds their better judgement.

I think you are oversimplifying the actions of the government and, quite importantly, the machinations of the Department of Foreign Affairs. You’ll find that Irish policy towards the EU and, in particular the French and Germans, is not as clear-cut. Indeed, if you wanted to accuse Irish positions of toadying to foreign powers, you’d also have to take into account our relationship with other nations and power blocs other than the EU.

All of this is part of diplomacy of a small nation, which Ireland is. After all we’ve a long history of remaining on good terms with all sorts of friends after all; we unashamedly kept on good terms with both the Axis and Allies in World War II, somehow we kept friendly with both the Soviets and the US and now we’re happy to sit between the US and the EU (even though we’re part of the latter) - being both ‘Good Europeans’ and turning a blind eye to the US transporting whatever they like through Shannon.

So all you’ve done however is cherry pick one of these policies to support your own position. Fine, we’ve figured out that you’re an old style Irish nationalist who doesn’t like how the comely maidens at the crossroads are now alcopop-swilling slappers. That’s your opinion and you’re more than welcome to it, but it would help if you were able to do more than simply come out with irrelevant arguments or innuendo to support why you don’t like European integration.

Gurgle

New_Departure06 wrote:

Anxious to be on good terms with their French, German etc. friends, they are more inclined to be taken in by their ideas. The desire to win approval from their peers in the corridors of power in other EU countries perhaps clouds their better judgement.

OK, taking your 'points'(:rolleyes: ) in order:
Anxious to be on good terms with their French, German etc. friends
Good policy. Europe 100 years ago was very like the middle east now - rapidly changing politics and governments, last major war not long over, next one rapidly approaching on the horizon. There has not been a war in western europe since the creation of the EU - Good Thing

more inclined to be taken in by their ideas
Those mad ideas like democracy and freedom, the right not only to life but to quality of life. Ideals that the US administration quote in thier rabble-rousing speeches but don't even apply in their own country.More Good Things

The desire to win approval from their peers in the corridors of power in other EU countries perhaps clouds their better judgement.
You assume that approval from their peers would be granted only when they show poor judgement?

The Corinthian

Gurgle wrote:

Europe 100 years ago was very like the middle east now - rapidly changing politics and governments,

I think the last major political upheaval throughout Europe was the various risings and revolutions of 1848. Napoleon III fell in 1870 though. Apart from that it was pretty stable - it’s one of the reasons they called it la belle epoch.

last major war not long over,

Franco-Prussian War, 1871. That would have meant over 40 years of unbroken peace in Europe at the outbreak of World War I.

next one rapidly approaching on the horizon.

With the benefit of hindsight this is always easy to say.

Far Corfe

oscarBravo wrote:

I call bull****. My definition of union doesn't include a further three years of bloody and horrific war to undo the "unification" of the previous three. Europe is the most united it's ever been right now, and there's no fascism (or any other form of totalitarianism) in sight. I don't know what that means. It's the type of reply that just bugs the crap out of me. It's thrown out there as if it's some sort of profound statement of fact, when it's nothing more than an enigmatic statement of unsupported opinion.

Try reading The Great Deception: A Secret History of the European Union

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0826471056/103-2163675-5674230?v=glance&n=283155

Plenty of supported opinion there.

If the people of Europe had a single vote tomorrow on the european experiment the EU would be toast

Far Corfe

But they are not going to give us that vote for as i said its a nazi institution

The Corinthian

Far Corfe wrote:

Try reading The Great Deception: A Secret History of the European Union

Written by a Telegraph journalist and a fiction writer, hmmm...

While we’re all discussing conspiracy theories, I suggest you go off and read this.

If the people of Europe had a single vote tomorrow on the european experiment the EU would be toast

Another expert opinion.

extragon

I wish I lived in a "Eurostate."
However - it seems to me that the fragmentation of the EU is at least as likely a possibility. And there are very few who really want that that to happen. Even right wing factions in the UK wish to keep most of the single market, free movement of people etc. The trouble is - these things would fall apart, bit by bit, if it was not for the sheer institutional weight of the EU.

Several people have mentioned a lack of democracy in the institutions. Ex. chancellor Kohl had the right idea, I think, in suggesting a merging of the Commission and the Parliament. Commissioners should be elected, there should be real politics at the heart of Europe. A "demos" of the European people is not impossible to construct. There are many multicultural nation states, from Switzerland to India. A "demos" would happen by it's self if it was allowed to develop - real politics, a little encouragement for a European media. European institutions that were palpably democratic, no matter how inconvenient that might be from time to time, would be a far better guarantee of the continuing benefits of the EU ( even as we know it, without further integration ) than any amount of new EU regulation.

dathi1

Another expert opinion.

The french rejection of the Federalist Constitution? Step One.

extragon

Actually, the "Constitution" was an attempt to foist a bureaucratic undemocratic streamlining of certain policies - there was virtually nothing in it that a true "federalist" would like. I happen to live in France and a large amount of the pre-referendum campaigning I encountered complained of the fact that the constitution wasn't European enough.

Far Corfe

The Corinthian wrote:

Written by a Telegraph journalist and a fiction writer, hmmm...

While we’re all discussing conspiracy theories, I suggest you go off and read this.

Another expert opinion.

A worthless and ignorant response.

The Corinthian

Far Corfe wrote:

A worthless and ignorant response.

LOL. As opposed to your weighty and well informed contribution?

StupidLikeAFox

Didnt read all the thread but heres my 2c.

Im not too pushed with being "ruled from brussells" (as the buzzword seems to be), for the simple fact that i think Irish/Polish/French/German societies are not the same. The term being "ruled from brussells" implies that everyone will be conditioned the same and turned into robots, we'll all cease to have nationalities and be simply europeans.

However, no matter what policies Brussells pass, it'll never get that extreme, there will still be (loose) borders, irish people will still be irish. I think that was an underlying theme in the OP. So in short, brussells can pass what laws they want, im not in fear of losing my irishness

New_Departure06

Decisions should be taken closest to the people they effect.

Conar

dathi1 wrote:

Oh and remember..Dick Roche, De Rosa et al....eastern block immigration will be a trickle. I expect no more than 2000-3000 people a year.

Boll.ox.

What exactly is your problem with "eastern block immigration"?
Did you ever stop to think how it benefits our country to have people come in, work hard, pay rent, eat food, buy petrol, then head back home and not stick around for a state pension?

New_Departure06

Conar wrote:

What exactly is your problem with "eastern block immigration"?
Did you ever stop to think how it benefits our country to have people come in, work hard, pay rent, eat food, buy petrol, then head back home and not stick around for a state pension?

Is there an East European gene that makes them more hardworking than us? I ask because I don't really understand the theory that foreigners coming in are automatically harder workers. I find the romanticisation of immigrants a bit silly to b honest. They are people, like us - equally capable of fault or good behaviour. They are not some sort of superbeing, always keeping out of trouble.

I agree that we should let some people in. But I object to the fact that whereas we are letting everyone in, France, Germany, Austria, Italy etc. are continuing to refuse. Spain, Portugal and Finland have just agreed to end restrictions on the new EU states. But knowledge of those languages in Eastern Europe is quite low. Only when Germany and Austria lift their controls will we see a sizeable fall in Eastern European immigration to Ireland. However, they are already saying they will keep the controls at least until 2009 (they can keep them until 2011). There are even suspicions that they may try to drag out lifting them for longer. As such, we are going to have at least another 4 years of this and possible 6+. Surely if we are going to let everyone in then it is only fair to ask that the rest of Western Europe does likewise?

Conar

New_Departure06 wrote:

Is there an East European gene that makes them more hardworking than us? I ask because I don't really understand the theory that foreigners coming in are automatically harder workers. I find the romanticisation of immigrants a bit silly to b honest.

Sorry, but I think you are misquoting me, I did not say that they are harder works. I said that they work hard.
Most decent Irish folk also work hard, I did not imply that they don't!
I do not however see the harm in importing more workers when we need them!
Our tourism and catering industries for example would be lost without them!