Strong Unions = Unequal Society?

TheVan

Ok well before I begin, note that this is just a bit of fun theorising. Obviously it doesnt take into account trade unions' work in terms of working conditions and constributions to social pacts.

Play nice children and just go with the discussion flow!

So.....

• Unions generally demand an increase in wages above the rate of inflation. This increases inflation again which in turn leads to higher wages....vicious cycle
• These consistently higher wages are seen by foreign firms who engage in FDI. These same firms see the same labour, cheaper in Eastern Europe, China and India and move to these countries
• Ireland responds by beginning to compete on a value-added basis. Therefore there are more well-paid jobs for college graduates
• However lower paid jobs move overseas
• Therefore the gap between high and low paid jobs increases
• This leads to an unequal society

I am expecting to get attacked for this, but it is an interesting line of conversation don't you think?

coolhandluke

Greedy Government,Greedy Employers,Greedy Builders = Unequal Society ?

Of course not,sure everyone knows unions are the root of all evil.
Will you get..............a grip !.

Akrasia

it's the basic seperation of ownership between capital and the working classes that cause an unequal society. The only reason Unions are so intransiagent, is because they are forced to compete against the owners for a share of the wealth generated by their labour. If the workers controlled their workplace, and if the Union was the owner of the business, then the union would not promote work practises that are damaging to the business. (or at least, would not do so intentionally) In the current situation, unions are necessary to prevent exploitation of the workers. The Owners will take the maximum profit they are allowed to take by the workers. Workers united in a union are able to present a stronger case for all the workers then when they are individuals competing amongst one another in a business.

Dirk Gently

seen as it was just a bit of fun I wont be too hard on you. We have very weak unions here in ireland so your theory doesn't apply to Ireland. I think it would be devastaing if there were no unions and employers had a free hand to do as they will. rising wages are neccessary in order for people to survive. Reverse your argument around and imagine a world where prices were capped to what people could afford and companies were not alowed to up and leave at their whim. If business was more people friendly and industry was seen as for the benifit of peoples living standards and not for private profit then wage demands wouldn't keep growing to keep up with the rip off culture we live in.

Akrasia

just to add to clown bags point, Unions in the United States are weaker they have ever been, and inequality is over there is far worse than it is here. Real wages have been declining over the past number of decades while personal fortunes are being ammassed on a massive scale by a small number of people.

TheVan

Excellent points!

Just wanted to start a line of conversation on a way of thought! Thanks for not just abusing me!

What about Germany, which seems to have strong unions, high unemployement but high employment for those in value-added jobs?

piraka

Or could it be:

Paye Workers see an erosion in their diposable income due to inflation.

Paye Workers seek increase above rate of inflation to redress.

Providors of goods and services see workers with more disposable income increase prices.

Inflation rate increases.

Paye Workers see an erosion in their disposable income.......

gurramok

To address your point on a personal note in private sector:

A load of us who work in a American multi-national are joining a union as our pay has in effect being frozen for last 5 years with a net affect of pay rises only being 3% for some workers over that entire time(not per yr), wayyyy behind inflation.

So yes, if your treated badly in your job, you have a right to join a union to address those concerns and unions are beneficial to address those concerns.

The line on well-paid graduates getting well paid jobs depends on the company, the company is hardly going to pay graduates more than existing badly paid employees!
In the public sector, i do agree that some unions are sheer greedy(ESB, Civil Service, teachers etc)

Anyway to sum up, some employers pay well, some don't. Those that don't is where unions are needed.

netwhizkid

Strong Unions = Strong Society, A strong society is good for everyone. In Ireland we are in an economic boom however all this boom is based on lies and credit. Wages here have been declining in real terms too, Yes taxes are down however essential services are non-existent and people's quality of life is getting worse & worse. A strong trade union goes far further than than the shop floor it goes all the way to the top. If you have strong trade-unions who can organise and be efficient society is far better. In Ireland our trade-unions are weak and under-subscribed.

Teachers getting their pay docked to march alongside the other 100,000+ people over Irish Ferries was one example of how you need a strong trade-union. If we had stronger unions with more members more could be achieved. The Labour Party is supposed to be political voice of Ireland's working classes and with Labour in Power and strong trade unions we would have a much fairer society.

We as Irish Citizens are being dogged completely by this current Government who don't care about workers rights or peoples services. They care not about politics but themselves and the majority are extremely corrupt and arrogant. Mary Harney is a prime example she is trying her full best to kill Ireland's Health Service and privatise the whole lot. People will tolerate so much but eventually will give as did the Irish people in 1913 during the Dublin Lockout which brought about the rise of James Connolly and the ICA. The moral is you will eventually push too far before something happens, This government has taken the p*ss to long and it is now up to the People to vote them out. Trade Unions yes can be viewed as wrong doers as they have inevitably caused job losses by making nonsensical demands off employers in the past. A fair work practice is key to the lot,

(some people think unionised Civil Service and other unionised positions are filled by lazy slobs who do nothing because they have the Union backing them, This isn't true is most cases having a Union is like a back-up but is not a license to fudge things)

Private Enterprise is Ireland's life blood now and should have more unions watching out for their workers, Ryanair is a typical example of a Union Buster type company and this should not be tolerated. Unions & Private Enterprise can actually work hand in hand to benefit each other, contrary to popular belief.

Anyways they are my thoughts on it. Kudos to the OP for bringing up such a good debate/conversation.

Time Magazine

We're far too bloody unionised in this country.

Like employers' groups and oil cartels, they in turn become greedy - shock, shock, horror!

Our civil service is an absolute state.

There is no real right-wing politics in Ireland. Nobody govt will screw workers over. In all fairness, it was the PD's who brought in the minimum wage.

Ryanair FTW. Now poor people (myself as a student included) can afford flights.

Dublin Bus on the other hand...

piraka

Angry Banana wrote:

Now poor people (myself as a student included) can afford flights.

Not if you are a Munster fan trying to fly to the final in Cardiff

John_C

piraka wrote:

Not if you are a Munster fan trying to fly to the final in Cardiff

If you can afford to take a day or 2 off work, fly to London and get a bus. Myself and the lads are getting over and back for under 100 euro.

On the topic of unions, I think that they should only be there as a back up for when legislation failes. Otherwise it's not fair that someone in a key sector (e.g. an ESB worker or a DART driver) has more bargaining clout than someone who is more replaceable because the threat of strike is much more serious in some industries than others.

gurramok

Angry Banana wrote:

We're far too bloody unionised in this country.

Like employers' groups and oil cartels, they in turn become greedy - shock, shock, horror!

Our civil service is an absolute state.

There is no real right-wing politics in Ireland. Nobody govt will screw workers over. In all fairness, it was the PD's who brought in the minimum wage.

Ryanair FTW. Now poor people (myself as a student included) can afford flights.

Dublin Bus on the other hand...

Too unionised? No we're not, the stats in labour force i'm sure would show that there are not enough unionised members in the workforce as a whole
.
Your gripe is with public sector unions which i agree can screw joe public through mass action in critical industries.
You've got to distinguish between public & private sector unions, the former have had it so good, the latter's workers have not hence a need for unions in certain private sectors.

I'd consider the present govt FF&PD as right-wing as well as their rivals in FG.

Aidan1

Agree with the original proposition. It was precisely that mechanism that killed many of the semi states here, as workers became so protected that they killed the companies they worked for.

Also, given the percentage of the workforce in the state that is unionised, and their relative power, the situation here at the moment, as expressed through partnership is highly undemocratic. Just as importantly, union management are out for themselves, not their workers, I'm sure we all have stories of where individual workers cases were either ignored, or the worker sidelined in a negotiation process because the unions wanted to make a larger point, screwing over the worker in the first place.

The power of unions is particularly destructive in the public sector, where powerful unions can capture an industry and make services more expensive for everyone (Eircom ESOT anyone?), refuse to adopt changes, and hold up important projects that have sucked up large amounts of public money that could have been spent elsewhere. A case in point being the shiny new trains for the Cork-Dublin line, sitting idle cos the unions think they can use them as leverage for further concessions.

Greedy Government,Greedy Employers,Greedy Builders

... And unions are not greedy at all of course, just being out "to protect the workin' man". As a non unionised worker, I find that both naive, and condescending, quite a trick. Unions are a necessary evil, but only to a point. After that, they become a plague on society.

A gradual breakdown of the union stranglehold in some sectors of the economy is one of the most positive developments in the country over the last 10 years.

Time Magazine

gurramok wrote:

Your gripe is with public sector unions which i agree can screw joe public through mass action in critical industries.
You've got to distinguish between public & private sector unions

That's a good point, but I was referring primarily to the public sector. But I have no faith in the likes of SIPTU/ICTU/MANDATE either (despite me being a member of one!). The fact that 100,000 people grind the country to a halt over a company that's moving because of labour costs makes me cringe.

And before the bleeding hearts (hi netwhizkid) rant and rave about the awful employers pushing the poor father of six into overtime slavery while his wife suffers a heart-wrenching, tear-jerking in-grown toenail, provide me an explanation why:

1. the advent of anti-union scum Ryanair into aviation market is a bad thing seeing as I can afford to go to Spain this summer
2. Why bus drivers sometimes leave me at the side of the road while driving a half-filled bus
3. Why my library usually only opens for the grand total of 5.5 hours at the weekend
4. oil cartels are a bad thing

I'd consider the present govt FF&PD as right-wing as well as their rivals in FG.

Actually I don't consider any of them as really right-wing. This is a bit of a tangent, but I'll go there anyway. Take this report by Laver and Benoit (we miss you Michael!) and scroll down to page 20. That's a pretty accurate representation of the spectrum of Irish politics. It's my assertion that Ireland is seeing (a further, we never were very diverse) homogenisation of political parties. Not even the Greens want higher income taxes now, for example. Perhaps this is pre-Election scrambling, but it does have a bit of merit in the last few years as well as the forthcoming eighteen months.

Essentially, by that graph, the PD's are about as Right as the Greens are Left. I don't consider the Greens an exceptionally left-wing party, certainly not when you consider them in a European context. Similarly, I think the PD's are slightly mis-represented in that graph. I'm not a fan of the PD's, but I don't think they're as right-wing as people say they are. It was they, remember, that brought in the minimum wage. And it is, by any and all analysis, a fair minimum wage. Thus my perception of the Irish political spectrum is that, if anything, they're more centric than the graph represents. This is further compounded by the thought of e.g. the Conservatives and BNP in UK while you have the entirity of the French nation to the left of Stalin.

So basically we have (what I consider) a fairly healthy centrist political spectrum. You have the odd eejit on the left (SF raise your hand) and the odd nutjob on the right (that's you, Micky D.).

What's the point of all this? With the exception of the shambolic vacuum of workers' rights in the almost by default one year probationary period (i.e. there is effectively no such thing as unfair dismissal for a worker of four months' service), we have a fairly fair labour market. This, of course, lowers the needs for unions. Thus my assertion, (public) unions in this country suck.

netwhizkid

Angry Banana wrote:

And before the bleeding hearts (hi netwhizkid) rant and rave about the awful employers pushing the poor father of six into overtime slavery while his wife suffers a heart-wrenching, tear-jerking in-grown toenail, provide me an explanation why:

1. the advent of anti-union scum Ryanair into aviation market is a bad thing seeing as I can afford to go to Spain this summer
2. Why bus drivers sometimes leave me at the side of the road while driving a half-filled bus
3. Why my library usually only opens for the grand total of 5.5 hours at the weekend
4. oil cartels are a bad thing

With regards Ryanair, they have brought down the cost of plane tickets which is a great thing for the consumer and the entire Tourism and Aviation industry. But (Yes there is a but!) I think Ryanair are not the best company in terms of customer service and the way they treat some of their workers and passengers. I dislike also Michael O'Learys attitude towards workers and all that, however he is a very succesful buisiness man and I have to admire that.

Yet however regardless of what rung of the ladder the worker is I feel that all workers should have the right to join and promote a Union in all employment. Ryanair are an example of how an anti-union company can succeed. I think a union should have the interest of the Company at heart also as well the individual worker. I know it is swaying a bit from the traditional view but if say imagine boards was a company and it had 50 staff, imagine that to make 5 of them redundant would save the company from ruin or allow it prepare to merge or earn more for expansion, I think in this sort of a scenario that the unions have traditionally messed up big time as Aidan1 explained here

Aidan1 wrote:

Agree with the original proposition. It was precisely that mechanism that killed many of the semi states here, as workers became so protected that they killed the companies they worked for.

Unions have damaged themselves with this sort of carry on and should expand their views beyond the worker to Corporate Success and Consumer Interests.

With Regards Bus Drivers I know how it is I got left in the Rain once too :mad: Obviously some targets were being aimed for while I was left Hitch hiking as a result ! I haven't visited my local library since I was 12 so can't really say, an Encarta Disc and the Internet have sort of curtailed my Library trips! Anyways my opinion of Unions is that they are essential and should be open to every one. They have interfered in things that really they have no interests in and should try to keep their options open and try to be as bi-partheid and a little more balanced. After all if it wasn't for those bosses and companies their would be no workers and nothing for the Unions to do!

New_Departure06

Unions generally demand an increase in wages above the rate of inflation. This increases inflation again which in turn leads to higher wages....vicious cycle
These consistently higher wages are seen by foreign firms who engage in FDI. These same firms see the same labour, cheaper in Eastern Europe, China and India and move to these countries
Ireland responds by beginning to compete on a value-added basis. Therefore there are more well-paid jobs for college graduates
However lower paid jobs move overseas
Therefore the gap between high and low paid jobs increases
This leads to an unequal society

Well, I do believe workers are entitled to a pay-hike above inflation, provided inflation isn't out of control, in which case restraint may be needed to avoid collapsing a company. We need to avoid a return to the wage-price spiral of the 80's when unions were demanding 25% pay rises and getting them, ensuring inflation stayed at 25% etc.

Akrasia

ryanair are being used as the best (and only?) example of a happy fun friendly anti union company who allows us all to go on weekend breaks at no financial cost (only an environmental one) But they are only happy and fun and friendly because so far, Ryanair haven't really had a single profit crisis yet. Wait until there is a big shock in the industry affecting short haul flights and they are forced to fire staff. Ryanair will probably treat their staff the worst because the staff will have no way of demanding better treatment.

Time Magazine

netwhizkid wrote:

... I think a union should have the interest of the Company at heart ...

Therein lies the problem. They won't and don't have the interest of the company at heart - that's the owers' preserve - they have their own. In Ryanair's case (I can come up with more if you'd like Akrasia - such as Intel), the focus is on low cost so obviously customer service sucks. I accept that. If their customer service was better there would be higher prices so I take my chances. As a consumer, this is what I want.

Similarly, unions can stand in the way of lowest prices possible. It's obviously in their interest to get as high a wage as possible, and thus increase end price. This does not, however, advocate an abolition (or is that abolishment) of unions and the pursuit of wage increases. Nor is it suggesting that government will perfectly control the labour market for a fair equilibrium of profit, wages and price. But, in my mind, at the moment, many unions are acting like an oil cartel.

silverharp

If you stand back my view is that unions were a natural development of the industrial age. Take for example GM in the US, who was ripping off who? basically the company had spent alot of resources in fixed locations and the workers exploited this though unions, most GM floor workers are no better skilled then McD emplyees yet they earn $50K-$70K per year.
Now the power of unions are diminishing because of the global labour arbitrage, and the fact that cutting edge companies have become "platform" companies where they don't own alot of assets.
Plus the information age favours educated people who don't need the protection of unions, they will work for several companies in their life or will even have tendancy to be self employed.
the last bastions of the unions will be the likes of the civil service, who know more about serving themselves then the taxpayer.

anton pillar

scrap unions entirely they have drained the life blood (and continue to do so) out of the economy. And fire all civil servants. now. before its too late.

coolhandluke

anton pillar wrote:

scrap unions entirely they have drained the life blood (and continue to do so) out of the economy. And fire all civil servants. now. before its too late.

You're not a PD,by any chance ?:D

ronbyrne2005

New_Departure06 wrote:

Well, I do believe workers are entitled to a pay-hike above inflation, provided inflation isn't out of control, in which case restraint may be needed to avoid collapsing a company. We need to avoid a return to the wage-price spiral of the 80's when unions were demanding 25% pay rises and getting them, ensuring inflation stayed at 25% etc.

you cant say workers are entitled to wage increase above inflation if they are not increasing productivity,i agree they should get a rise equal to inflation plus much of the productivity %.

Bards

by protecting the public sector employees they are actually hurting their other members in the private sector. They should realise that we are all citizens/workers of this economy and all interact with one another.

A worker who is employed in ABC Company relies on Dublin Bus to get to work but the Bus worker wants more money so the fare goes up. The worker who works in ABC Company then has to pay more to Dublin Bus and the unions in ABC Company demads more wages for this worker who has higher costs


Vicous circle that cannot be squared. The unions both Private & Public should stop being so unreasonable and remembner they are there to serve all their members needs not just a select few.

Need I mention the driver testers anyone