sharpening knives

danyosan

Could anyone tell me of anywhere that offers a knife sharpening service? I got a set of knives for christmas and they are all blunt. took them along to a butcher and he reckons they need a grinding wheel on them cos the steel is too strong for his whet stone. thanks in advance for any help. If this is the wrong forum then apologies.

ARGINITE

Use a sharping steel rather then a whet stone as they are just to take the burr of the metal.

danyosan

sorry, dont think i explained it right. the steel is having no effect on the knives. butcher reckons the knive's steel surface needs to be broken before it can be sharpened with a steel.

Blub2k4

If the steel is having no effect on them then the chances are that they are rubbish, if they came from the factory in need of a whetstone then they cant be up to much.

A steel is for maintenance a whetstone is for sharpening, if the butchers stone couldn't do it I'd question if it is worth it.
Were they ever sharp?

Have a look in TKMaxx, I got a set of sabatier knives there recently for 79 euros and they are RRP 313 euro, is a very nice set of knives. That would be cheaper than a sharpening service I venture and would question if the knives are worth it in the first place.

bonkey

Blub2k4 wrote:

If the steel is having no effect on them then the chances are that they are rubbish,

Not necessarily true.

My fiancee used to work in a knife shop. Chefs etc. regularly dropped knives back in to get re-edged.

Basically there are three "levels" of sharpening.

1) A steel. This really just rehones an existing edge. Once a knife gets blunt enough and/or it has a "double-" or "split-" edge, then you need to move onwards. Typically, a chef/butcher will use a steel on a knife at least daily.

2) A stone. This does some grinding, so it will gradually re-edge a blade. However, its designed not to be incredibly harsh, so once you get to a blunt or splt enough point, you'll spend literally forever with the stone. Typically, a stone will be used weekly to monthly so that a daily steeling will remain effective. If you look at hte profile of a blade, only the last mm or so is actually cut into a V-shape to hold the edge. Once you go far enough down this, re-edging is the only thing that is practical. YOu could re-edge manually with a stone....but thats not much different to saying you could also sharpen the back of your knife with the stone. You could, but it would take an awful long time.

3) Re-edging. There are a number of tools this can be done with - from a lathe to a wheel. This is where comparatively large amounts of material are stripped off the blade, putting an entire new edge on it. How often you need to do this depends on how often you use your knives, how good you are at the first two techniques, how good the knives are, etc. etc. etc.

A steel is for maintenance a whetstone is for sharpening, if the butchers stone couldn't do it I'd question if it is worth it.

It depends how blunt you've let them get. I've seen virtually every make of knife reduced to little better than a butter-knife by people who use them constantly and never sharpen them. I've seen most makes also reduced to the same by people using steels badly. With decent knives, it would take hours/days to put a proper edge back on to them using a straightforward stone.

One thing to consider...I once got a set of knives "re-edged" in Ireland, and will never go to the shop again for anything. Two of the knives were fit for the bin, and the rest required an evening of work between them with stone and steel to get the burrs off the edges.

If they're good knives, get one re-edged, and see if its worth it. Also get (and learn how to use) a steel and stone.

jc

danyosan

well the butcher reckoned they were good knives, very strong steel. The make is PRIMA. They cost £299 sterling so they cant be rubbish.

danyosan

bonkey wrote:

Not necessarily true.

My fiancee used to work in a knife shop. Chefs etc. regularly dropped knives back in to get re-edged.

Basically there are three "levels" of sharpening.

1) A steel. This really just rehones an existing edge. Once a knife gets blunt enough and/or it has a "double-" or "split-" edge, then you need to move onwards. Typically, a chef/butcher will use a steel on a knife at least daily.

2) A stone. This does some grinding, so it will gradually re-edge a blade. However, its designed not to be incredibly harsh, so once you get to a blunt or splt enough point, you'll spend literally forever with the stone. Typically, a stone will be used weekly to monthly so that a daily steeling will remain effective. If you look at hte profile of a blade, only the last mm or so is actually cut into a V-shape to hold the edge. Once you go far enough down this, re-edging is the only thing that is practical. YOu could re-edge manually with a stone....but thats not much different to saying you could also sharpen the back of your knife with the stone. You could, but it would take an awful long time.

3) Re-edging. There are a number of tools this can be done with - from a lathe to a wheel. This is where comparatively large amounts of material are stripped off the blade, putting an entire new edge on it. How often you need to do this depends on how often you use your knives, how good you are at the first two techniques, how good the knives are, etc. etc. etc.


It depends how blunt you've let them get. I've seen virtually every make of knife reduced to little better than a butter-knife by people who use them constantly and never sharpen them. I've seen most makes also reduced to the same by people using steels badly. With decent knives, it would take hours/days to put a proper edge back on to them using a straightforward stone.

One thing to consider...I once got a set of knives "re-edged" in Ireland, and will never go to the shop again for anything. Two of the knives were fit for the bin, and the rest required an evening of work between them with stone and steel to get the burrs off the edges.

If they're good knives, get one re-edged, and see if its worth it. Also get (and learn how to use) a steel and stone.

jc

You must have posted same time as me. Thanks for that advice. It's that kind of place I'm looking for. The knives are brand new but dont seem to have much of an edge on them. As I said before, the stone had virtually no effect on the knife so I was advised to get it done on a turning machine.

He showed me how to use the stone and steel. Whether I can do it is a different matter... all I need first is a place to out and edge on them.

Blub2k4

bonkey wrote:

If they're good knives, get one re-edged, and see if its worth it. Also get (and learn how to use) a steel and stone. jc

I was assuming the OP knows how to use a steel, it occurs now that that is probably the problem as I couldn't conceptualise how a knife would need re-edging if in use since Xmas, I assumed too much possibly.

bonkey

danyosan wrote:

well the butcher reckoned they were good knives, very strong steel. The make is PRIMA. They cost £299 sterling so they cant be rubbish.

Hope they weren't this set or you were done :

http://www.electricshop.com/invt/4025pri109258a

danyosan

No it isnt that set, mine is a 15 piece set with steak knives and forks as well. I didnt pay that for them anyway, thats what the rrp was. Back on topic, does nobody know where I can go to get them edged.

and Blub2k4, it doesnt matter if I know how to use a steel or not, the butcher couldnt do it either. And his advice was to get them edged.

Blub2k4

danyosan wrote:

and Blub2k4, it doesnt matter if I know how to use a steel or not, the butcher couldnt do it either. And his advice was to get them edged.

Obviously it doesn't I mean you're only asking for help on how to get knives sharpened, has nothing to do with a set of knives in use since Christmas needing to be reedged.
There are a few possibilities:
The knives were rubbish to start with.
They were good and bad technique with a steel has REALLY screwed them up
They were never sharpened since you got them and were used heavily.

Good knives dont leave a factory in need of re-edging.

I wish you wouldn't take it personnally, you asked for help on a public board, I have but a line or two of text to go on and some experience with knives and kitchens. It is no slight on your manhood not to be able to use a steel, if you knew you wouldn't have asked for help, so accept what was said in the spirit of being helped, or dont bother asking.

<edit> I would expect a set in use since Xmas at the most to need a whetstone, the fact that your technique with a steel may have done the damage is historically relevant.

Tree

i can't use a steel to save my life so i got one of them yokes with tungsten carbide egdes in a plastic housing that you just draw the knife over. works great

danyosan

I didnt take it personally, its the fact that you keep going on that if they were steeled properly then they would be fine. I'm acting on what a person in the know, namely the butcher, told me to do. I havent touched the knives, with a steel or a stone. T
he thread was to find a place that will put an edge on them, I wasnt looking for advice on how to sharpen them myself.

otron

Could it be that the butcher just wasn't arsed and said whatever it would take to get rid of you?

I have a set of expensive Henkles and find that the sharpening machine that you slide the knives in and out of, works very well. I have a steel, but I think you really need to be able to use it - and I can't.

danyosan

Well he spent twenty minutes trying to sharpen it for me so I wouldnt think so

luckat

Danyosan, have you thought of contacting the maker?

danyosan

Actually thats probably the best idea I've heard, never even thought of that. thanks very much luckat

The Sweeper

I think it's really weird that you can't get an edge on your knives, but weight and looking 'heavy' isn't necessarily an indication of quality. I'd also expect a butcher to be able to put an edge on a blade.

How do you define 'blunt' anyway?

I judge knife sharpness with overripe tomatoes - if my knives can thinly slice an overripe tomato with little pressure, they're sharp. If they leave a big indent and unsplit skin then they're not sharp.

I use Global knives, which I collect one painstaking knife at a time (which at about £50 STG a knife is the only rate I can afford to get them at) and keep the edges keen with a ceramic water sharpener.

I've only cut myself once with my knives, and that was when the one I was using was slightly dull so it slipped off the end of the onion I was slicing and nicked my finger. These days I keep them sharp enough you could shave with them.

cuckoo

Sorry to hi-jack the thread a little, but could someone please post a quick guide, or linky to, for looking after knives? I'm very confused about all the various gadgets and methods, and would like to figure it out before i start investing in some decent knives.

Shabadu

OK- well firstly, invest in either Wusthof or Global knives. I prefer Wusthof, they're a bit heavier and & prefer a weighty knife.

Cleaning & storage: Never use the green scratchy thing or hard plastic to clean them- only a soft sponge or your hands.

Never put them in a dishwasher.

Never let them come in contact with metal cutlery or pots in a drawer- keep them seperately, on a magnetised strip is always handy, I keep mine either in my knife bag or my high use ones on a teatowel in a cupboard ledge above the cooker, out of reach of my questing two year old.

Maintaining sharpness: Give them a quick run over with a steel every now and then- make sure you are holding the knife at the proper oblique angle- most people I know know who think they can sharpen knives end up blunting them further. (Including one eejit who used to sharpen two chefs knives by rubbing them against each other.) A handy stand in for a steel is the bottom of a cup- the unglazed part, or the run-over variety Tree described earlier is good if you're not confident about the right angle.

That said- the only way you're going to really bring back sharpness is with a whetstone, available from most chef's shops. Oil it up, put it on a tea towel, and grind away carefully. Make sure you use tons of oil; in fact, engine oil is the best as it's so frictionless.

One last thing- make sure no-one you live with is the type of person who would use your BEST GORGEOUS FILLETING KNIFE TO FIX A LOOSE SCREW. Because that ruins the tip forever. Luckily, you never really use the tip of a filleting knife, or I couldn't be held responsible for my actions.

bonkey

Shabadu wrote:

OK- well firstly, invest in either Wusthof or Global knives. I prefer Wusthof, they're a bit heavier and & prefer a weighty knife.

Man, thats some short list

I'd add Zwilling / Dreisacks on there...and GoldHamster of course (cause its what I'm slowly collecting).

Alternately, if you want to get a decent-but-not-outstanding set which will still last most of a lifetime, Victorinox are good enough for a hell of a lot of chefs, so they're probably good enough for anyone.

As to the care and storage...couldn't agree more. Putting your knives in the drawer is about the second-best way to blunt them - the best being to use glass (or similar) chopping boards.

One last thing- make sure no-one you live with is the type of person who would use your BEST GORGEOUS FILLETING KNIFE TO FIX A LOOSE SCREW. Because that ruins the tip forever. Luckily, you never really use the tip of a filleting knife, or I couldn't be held responsible for my actions.

I'd still want a new knife. Thats just horrible. My sympathies.

Shabadu

bonkey wrote:

Man, thats some short list

I'd add Zwilling / Dreisacks on there...and GoldHamster of course (cause its what I'm slowly collecting).

Alternately, if you want to get a decent-but-not-outstanding set which will still last most of a lifetime, Victorinox are good enough for a hell of a lot of chefs, so they're probably good enough for anyone.

It is quite short, isn't it? They're just the knives I recommend because they last so long and keep such a good edge if you look after them. My Mum and Mother in Law both swear by Sabatier, but again, they feel a bit light and flyaway for me, which is dangerous for my knuckles.

I think Zwilling actually make Wusthof knives, they're all part of the same company iirc. I've heard about GoldHamster, but have never actually tried them. I'll keep an eye out, but haven't seen them in Ireland.

Victorinox are a great knife for the kitchen- relatively inexpensive, takes a re-edging well, but they're sharpness is difficult to maintain. You'd want to give them a run over with the steel every time you're doing precision work. They remind me of my old f. dick knives. (I still have my f. dick boner. It makes me laugh every time I see it.)

As to the care and storage...couldn't agree more. Putting your knives in the drawer is about the second-best way to blunt them - the best being to use glass (or similar) chopping boards.

Yes! Glass chopping boards are awful things- I'm not even gone on plastic, but courtesy of HACCP & the EU we're all using them now. Seriously, you're not allowed have wooden chopping boards in kitchens anymore. It's nonsense. A clean wooden chopping board is just as clean if not cleaner than a flimsy plastic thing with big grooves for hiding bacteria. Not to mention how much more dangerous it is to use a light plastic chopping board compared to a good block! The amount of times I've seen theem fly off when someone forgets to put a cloth underneath is mad.

I'd still want a new knife. Thats just horrible. My sympathies.

It's been used as a bargaining chip many times.

The Sweeper

Global knives have weighted hollow handles (apart from the GSF series which have smaller blades - utility knives, parers etc. - and have solid handles).

A big warning on Global knives though - there are a LOT of fakes out there. The Yoshida Metal Industry Company make Global Knives - here's the warning from their home page about what's not kosher:

http://www.yoshikin.co.jp/w/rights/index.html

Basically almost everything on eBay UK's a fake...

bonkey

Shabadu wrote:

I think Zwilling actually make Wusthof knives, they're all part of the same company iirc. I've heard about GoldHamster, but have never actually tried them. I'll keep an eye out, but haven't seen them in Ireland.

I'm pretty sure they're not the same company - but they're both based in Solingen (Germany)...which is where the confusion could come in.

Solingen is also where Schaaf makes GoldHamsters.

I must make a day-trip up there....

jc

Alun

Yep, Solingen is kind of the Sheffield of Germany, so lots of knife and cutlery manufacturers are based there.

There's certainly nothing on the Wusthof website about them being part of any larger group that might also contain Zwilling, and nor is there anything on the Zwilling website either.

Shabadu

Ah, sorry guys, brain failure on my part. In other news, Boards Beers in Solingen? Alcohol and terribly sharp knives; what could go wrong?

bonkey

Shabadu wrote:

Alcohol and terribly sharp knives; what could go wrong?

(Looks down at scars on several fingers...)

Nothing!

What a great idea!!!!

jc

TKK

Where's a good place to buy good knives? I'm in the market for a set which I'll be most likely building up one by one unless I can get a good deal.

TKK

Also a problem I have with knives: When I take a cooks/chopping knife in my hand I find that my knuckles are lower than the blade resulting in me hopping my knuckles off the chopping board (I do have what some have described as large hands). I have picked up several knives for comparison and this is always a problem. Typically the cleaver is the only one with a blade high enough to avoid the problem. Would a cleaver be easy enough to use for ordinary chopping tasks?

bonkey

TKK wrote:

Also a problem I have with knives: When I take a cooks/chopping knife in my hand I find that my knuckles are lower than the blade resulting in me hopping my knuckles off the chopping board (I do have what some have described as large hands).

Even with a large French cuisine knife? Wow...

You should check different makes and sizes of blades. It could also be the way you hold the knife (I dunno about anyone else, but I tend to hold it with my hand right up against the blade, holding it half by the handle, half by the blade).

<edit> Fairly good representation of how to hold it "properly" here which is pretty much how I do it.</edit>

I have picked up several knives for comparison and this is always a problem.

Without knowing what you've tried, its hard to judge if this means much or not.

Would a cleaver be easy enough to use for ordinary chopping tasks?

The Japenese turned it into quite an art-form, so I'd be inclined to say....sure. I used to use a cheap one from one of the Asian stores for almost everything.

A cleaver will be fine for most stuff you'd use a cuisine knife for as well, but will occasionally let you down because it has no tip and the blade is likely to be shorter. At the end of the day, though, no one knife is suitable for all tasks, so I don't see this as a problem.

jc

Blub2k4

TKK wrote:

Where's a good place to buy good knives? I'm in the market for a set which I'll be most likely building up one by one unless I can get a good deal.

Check out TKmaxx in the Stephens Green Centre, they do some lovely kitchen gear, I bought a Stellar Sabatier knife block there with a normal RRP of 315 euro at 90 euro or so.