Image of Mahmoud Abbas

lostexpectation

ephraim wrote:

I have already done that. He was saying that religious texts are so vague that they can be interpreted to mean any number of events or people. I was just wondering what he was eluding to. In other words, does he have an example of such an interpretation. Something that has happened and can be shown in the prophecy. Ephraim

eh he is saying that... Something that will happen can not be shown in the prophecy.

And as an example Ill point to your first post, I bet maybe you had a diatribe written up just as you thought Fatah were going to win the election, and then Hamas won because the ordinary palestians were so pissed off at their corruption and their leaders keeping money for themselves they kicked em out... bet that wasn't predicted in the Ephraem

robindch

> He was saying that religious texts are so vague that they can be
> interpreted to mean any number of events or people.

Try a quick scope through some of the pop-eyed burblings on the Rapture-Ready(tm) board:

http://www.rr-bb.com/

MOGSA

robindch wrote:

Well, you can't have it both ways. You must believe that either (a) god is capable of creating evil, or (b) that god didn't create satan or that (c) what you think is evil, actually isn't. At the moment, you believe contradictory dogmas.

Really? Take 'black holes' (astrologically speaking of course ) We know they are there, apparently some even know how they are formed - but why, what is their purpose? I have no need of, and dont know, the answer to either this question or those implied within your statement.

My concern is that of maintaining sanctification and assisting others to do the same.

If a lion started stalking me in my garden, I would only stop to consider where it came from and how it got there when it was captured or dead. The same thing with Satan.

Your statement is hardly likely to bait me - its too deceptive - and while I am sure you have all the scientific answers to the black hole issue, I am not God.

So why dont you rather stick to the current thread/theme thats developing here, and challenge with OT prophecies that you meaningfully believe have no context or 'are vague' or are absolute 'nonsense'? Then we can debate on a mature and open basis.

Zombrex

ephraim wrote:

Can you give me another example?

Any of the doomsday reports around the year 2000 would be example. All these religous followers had a different interpretation that the end of the world was coming, with the "prophacy" fitted to everything from political movements in the US to oil price in the Middle East. And surprise surprise the world didn't end.

Quick google -
http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/skeptic/predictions.shtml
http://www.abhota.info/end5.htm

They aren't all religious in nature, but a lot of them are. And it just goes to show a lot of people are constantly convinced the world is about to end .. and then it doesn't..

MOGSA

robindch wrote:

> Can you give me another example?

How's about the 'Revelation'?

Thats a premature remark based on the fact that this thread is still developing and you are already pronouncing on it?


Lets try again!
I can find no fault with the aims and objectives of 'The Irish Skeptics Society' to which you belong. In fact my admiration for Irish history is profound because it has been well recorded and has continuity over centuries (maybe that should be millenia) which others dont. I'm still getting to grips with it, delving only into parts of relevance for my research at present.


I have several sets of questions about Irish history that maybe I could get answered by yourself. One of these sets is about Jeremiah.

What can you tell us about Tara, the prophet Jeremiah and the 'Stone of Scone' in your own words? Is it true, false or what? am I asking the wrong person?

This is not a loaded question because I have only read about various claims, not tried to verify them until now.

ephraim

robindch wrote:

> He was saying that religious texts are so vague that they can be
> interpreted to mean any number of events or people.

Try a quick scope through some of the pop-eyed burblings on the Rapture-Ready(tm) board:

http://www.rr-bb.com/

I guess it all depends on what you consider a credible explanation. I don't consider most explanations credible. I was just asking for a credible analysis of the facts as seen by a learned individual. With that I will drop my inquiry into his statement.

MOGSA

robindch wrote:

> He was saying that religious texts are so vague that they can be
> interpreted to mean any number of events or people.

Try a quick scope through some of the pop-eyed burblings on the Rapture-Ready(tm) board:

http://www.rr-bb.com/

Thanks for pointing me to this site. I glanced thru the various threads and postings. Some I also find a load of crap but the 'End Times Chat' section was quite within reason - imho.
I am sure we will get around to the end time prophecies regarding China and Russia over the next few weeks.

MOGSA

bmoferrall wrote:

Do you believe the pope is a 'puppet' or a 'puppeteer' in all this? :

Yep! In other words both. Most of the Popes thru history have been identified as one of many ACs (anti-christs). Who else could assasinate a Pope and get away with it but .....?

Lovable old Bill is part of all this too?

of course, and George, Billy Graham

try:

http://www.bushisantichrist.com/

and the satanic bloodlines : http://www.asis.com/~stag/uspres.html

and

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/shadowlands/6583/et042.html


and even Prince Charles:

So take a look at his Royal Crest containing the beasts of Revelation:

http://dccsa.com/greatjoy/crest.html

and worse:

http://www.think-aboutit.com/aliens/ac.html

But of course, this is all silly nonsense?


Very few things are what they appear to be - originally I thought conspiracy theories were bull...... until David Icke and then my own experiences.

lostexpectation

may i ask how you found this site and what prompted you to first post

MOGSA

lostexpectation wrote:

may i ask how you found this site and what prompted you to first post

Are you asking me? Mine was the previous post!

If so, then firstly track my original posts - there are not many of them.

Secondly my prompting came from an entity that knows of your setbacks in life and is the only answer to them - but of course, you dont believe in the God of Abraham. :cool:

lostexpectation

MOGSA wrote:

Are you asking me? Mine was the previous post!

If so, then firstly track my original posts - there are not many of them.

Secondly my prompting came from an entity that knows of your setbacks in life and is the only answer to them - but of course, you dont believe in the God of Abraham. :cool:

do you realise how offensive that is, even among all you nonsense politness??

MOGSA

lostexpectation wrote:

do you realise how offensive that is, even among all you nonsense politness??

Firstly, you gave the impression that you did not believe in the God of Abraham, Secondly, if you have not had setbacks in life out of all the people across 'boards' then you are indeed unique.

Thirdly once you know the difference between divination and discernment in spiritual terms then I could tell you that my God shows me a bit about most people that I post to. Not details, but enough to feel compassion.

If you still find this offensive, then I sincerely apologise for offending you.

Zombrex

MOGSA wrote:

Secondly, if you have not had setbacks in life out of all the people across 'boards' then you are indeed unique.
...
If you still find this offensive, then I sincerely apologise for offending you.

I don't think it was the set backs part, more the "and is [God] the only answer to them" bit that was a tad offensive.

A lot of non-religious posters to this forum are, while not agreeing with the beliefs, at least polite about people believing in them. If someone strolled into the Christianity thread telling you all that you are dislussional for believing in nonsenes "fairytales" they would probably be banned for breaking the charter and quite rightly too

It isn't too much to expect in return that the I-feel-so-sorry-for-you-that-haven't-found-God-yet self-rightious is kept to a minimum.

You may believe that all strength in life comes from a supernatural god. Lots of people don't, lots of people do just fine without a belief in a God. That might be hard for you to understand, you might not even believe it. It doesn't really matter. But they don't seek or require your pity.

MOGSA

Wicknight wrote:

I don't think it was the set backs part, more the "and is [God] the only answer to them" bit that was a tad offensive.

A lot of non-religious posters to this forum are, while not agreeing with the beliefs, at least polite about people believing in them. If someone strolled into the Christianity thread telling you all that you are dislussional for believing in nonsenes "fairytales" they would probably be banned for breaking the charter and quite rightly too

Nice one! This is exactly what your responses have been throughout your posts. 'Everything' is nonsense according to you, effectively implying that we are all lying when, in reality, we are trying to have a discussion about something that is very tangible to us, especially the real life experiences.
Your approach is very dismissive.

The difference between some of us and your side of the fence is that we were also once 'non-believers' and can now evaluate both sides. The fact that God has not called you does not invalidate our relationship with Him.

In fact we had to have open minds in the first place to break thru the 'my forefathers were Anglican/Catholic for 200 years therefore I must do the same' comfort-zone mold.

We have all been searching for answers and it is our open minds that have allowed us to get where we are - which is nowhere according to you. We, on the other hand, are satisfied because we know that we know.

Of course we dont know all the answers! We profess to worship a mighty God who operates in many more dimensions than we do - He gave us more than sufficient guidelines in the Bible to become operationally competent on earth. We dont need to be able to originate life or count the stars nor place God in a 'box' to quantify Him.

It isn't too much to expect in return that the I-feel-so-sorry-for-you-that-haven't-found-God-yet self-rightious is kept to a minimum.

You may believe that all strength in life comes from a supernatural god. Lots of people don't, lots of people do just fine without a belief in a God. That might be hard for you to understand, you might not even believe it. It doesn't really matter. But they don't seek or require your pity.

Your statements are not correct.

• I am not self-righteous - to be so would be contrary to the teachings I follow. I am on the Christian thread and can talk about issues here from a Christian pespective which is why I dont go on other threads to cause 'noise'.
• I know most people have difficulting in relating to, or believing in, God as stated several times in my posts. I dont find it hard to understand as it is already accepted. What is your point?
• I have no pity for the ungodly. They have heard and can weigh the consequences of their actions the same as everyone else - it's their choice - have I not said this many times until now?

If this mighty God of mine gives me discernment about most of the other persons posting, including you, then this is given whether you accept it or not. This is about compassion, not pity - an entirely different entity.

And compassion is something we all need to have, unless we are really oblivious to the real world around us.


In the recent past this 'discernment' has saved actual lives of people instead of being unable to assist due to ignorance. The difference between this and all the theoretical debates is that Christianity is a practical lifestyle with real issues.

It also goes for some other religions that I cannot agree with, but respect nevertheless. Asiaprod would not be a buddhist if he had not been searching for practical realities and answers outside of his original environment in Ireland. His personal set of moral values, including compassion, is evident and better than most, as is his ability to intellectualise about higher level issues.

Theory is great but one cannot live alone. Selfishness is one of the great problems in this world; what do you do for your fellow man?

In fact, reviewing the postings, it is strange that you never rise to any of the challenges. You throw in lots of other author's views, ignore challenges and dogmatically refuse to acknowledge that we have any rights as Christians to have beliefs on the Christian thread as you attempt to refute each one!

Your statement "telling you all that you are dislussional for believing in nonsenes "fairytales" " should remind you of this selectiveness and of your own approach.

Zombrex

MOGSA wrote:

'Everything' is nonsense according to you, effectively implying that we are all lying when, in reality, we are trying to have a discussion about something that is very tangible to us, especially the real life experiences.

I've never claimed "Everything" is nonsense. You on the other hand have claimed repeatable that I am claiming "Everything is nonsense" despite the fact that any time you do I have re-explain my position, which you apparantly ignore. I don't even knon what you mean by "Everything"

I have also never said anyone is lying about anything.

MOGSA wrote:

Your approach is very dismissive.

Its not my apporach. Science, by its nature, is very dimissive of treating personal accounts as evidence.

You might feel the presence of God and therefore believe accounts in the Bible. Thats great, but it ain't science or evidence.

MOGSA wrote:

I am not self-righteous - to be so would be contrary to the teachings I follow.
...
I have no pity for the ungodly.

I let this go at the time, but if you are going to claim that your posts aren't bordering on self-righteous...

MOGSA wrote:

"On a non-sarcastic and reconciliatory basis, I do feel sorry for you and I am sure that we could start a prayer pettion to stand in the gap for you."

It was actually after I said "No thanks I'll pass:rolleyes:" that you started claiming that "To you everything is nonsense".

You will notice that you said that in response to me, not the other way round. Which is why I claimed you seem unable to understand the atheist point of view. It certainly isn't "Everything is nonsense"

MOGSA wrote:

This is about compassion, not pity - an entirely different entity.

Compassion towards people who don't require or seek your help is "pity"

MOGSA wrote:

Selfishness is one of the great problems in this world; what do you do for your fellow man?

Ok, I admit that I might be reading your posts all wrong. But damn you make it hard when you write things like this. Are you (and I really hope you are not) implying I'm selfish? I hope that "you" in that sentence is the general "you" and not specific to me.

MOGSA wrote:

It is strange that you never rise to any of the challenges.

Which challanges would that be? I will "rise" to any challenges you like

MOGSA wrote:

You throw in lots of other author's views, ignore challenges and dogmatically refuse to acknowledge that we have any rights as Christians to have beliefs on the Christian thread as you attempt to refute each one!

You have the right to believe anything you like. I don't remember ever saying you don't.

But are you saying you have the right to never have these beliefs challanged when they step into the realms of history or science? To be never challanged on a public internet bulliet board?

MOGSA wrote:

Your statement "telling you all that you are dislussional for believing in nonsenes "fairytales" " should remind you of this selectiveness and of your own approach.

That is something that was said on the Athiest forum a while ago and it was used as an example by the mod of the Atheist forum of what is not allowed in the Chritistainty forum, just as I did. Its not his or my position. And I think you already know that.

lostexpectation

A lot of non-religious posters to this forum are, while not agreeing with the beliefs, at least polite about people believing in them. If someone strolled into the Christianity thread telling you all that you are dislussional for believing in nonsenes "fairytales" they would probably be banned for breaking the charter and quite rightly too.

And Im quite willing to discuss theology, without believing it is literal aslong as there is some semblance of 'moral tale' there and most of the regulars on the board can discuss it both in terms of theology and philosophy, and I think most of the them realise there is nothing in the bible about Mahmoud Abbas only in that it is a book with many many narratives that can apply to many situations, as history repeats itself.

Im still waiting to here your thoughts on the Palestinian elections...

which definition of ungoldy is yours MOGSA

un·god·ly Audio pronunciation of "ungodly" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-gdl)
adj. un·god·li·er, un·god·li·est

1. Not revering God; impious.
2. Sinful; wicked.
3. Outrageous: had to leave for work at an ungodly hour.

I am not self-righteous - to be so would be contrary to the teachings I follow

It might be contrary to your teachings (and it is not a good thing for anybody to be), but that doens't mean you are not self-righteous...

MOGSA

Wicknight wrote:

I have also never said anyone is lying about anything.

Not outright, you have alluded to statements being lies often. I note that I am not the only one where a statement is dismissed as 'nonsense'.

Dont hide behind this one! Flexibility is a great asset even if it is just to acknowledge points of view of others. "I cant relate" would be great instead of "nonsense"! Maybe we should now have an acronym 'ICR' for either position

Its not my apporach. Science, by its nature, is very dimissive of treating personal accounts as evidence.

What else is there but personal accounts? Refer to my previous posts : An x-ray shows a large spinal fracture after a horse riding accident - the doctors were wrong??

And what about the pictures of the aftermath of a recent AK47 shooting involving my son? You do realise that it took us hours to position all the empty cartridges for the camera so they looked as if bursts of fire came from the various guns?

I think you, not science, are dismissive because it doesnt all fit in a box.

I let this go at the time, but if you are going to claim that your posts aren't bordering on self-righteous...

Facts, not self-righteousness!

Compassion towards people who don't require or seek your help is "pity"

This is a disturbing statement ..... I need to let this one go and be judged by the community.

Are you (and I really hope you are not) implying I'm selfish? I hope that "you" in that sentence is the general "you" and not specific to me.

I can see from your posts that you are an idealist but how would I know if you are selfish? Idealism is not a bad thing and the thought occured to me to ask you in public what it is that you do for your fellow man?

Because most of us are very considerate of our fellow man, this is not just a christian domain ... there is no doubt that Asiaprod (I am not trying to pick on you, just using you as an example!) has strong feelings on this as a non-christian. I repeat the question to you.

Which challanges would that be? I will "rise" to any challenges you like

Ok.... the first challenge is to respond to a previous post and list the OT prophecies that are 'nonsense' to you and explain briefly why you think so. Later we can deal with text that does not make sense to you. This would feed into the current thread for discussion.

The second challenge is to provide your own definition of 'respect', not one found in the dictionary - your own words. I will shortly bring this issue up in the spiritual warfare thread as respect is an integral part of understanding spiritual warfare.
This will not be a contest nor an attempt to embarass anyone, because your definition is bound to be an acceptable 'world' view. Publish it and I will then publish my definition as an illustration of where the differences in approach are, if any.

The third challenge is to inform the thread community what qualifies you to state in your signature : 'This post was written for the universal improvement of mankind'. I have a genuine interest in what your qualifications are.

The fourth challenge is to answer my question about your fellow man.

Remember, I didnt offer to meet challenges, you did! And, please dont take forever, we need to move on the spiritual warfare side before the next solstice.

You have the right to believe anything you like. I don't remember ever saying you don't.

Then why challenge my beliefs if I am entitled to them. As an ex-non-believer I have a strong understanding about your belief system and my response is that those are your choices, I cant change them. I can only publish my base-line.

But are you saying you have the right to never have these beliefs challanged when they step into the realms of history or science? To be never challanged on a public internet bulliet board?

Science was created by man for all the right reasons - this is a Christian thread to discuss Christian issues, not be sidetracked by non-believers. These issues dont fit into a box scientifically and to debate that is sheer madness. As far as history and the Bible is concerned then this is a reasonable proposition for debate and you are going to provide some input with the first challenge hey?

That is something that was said on the Athiest forum a while ago and it was used as an example by the mod of the Atheist forum of what is not allowed in the Chritistainty forum, just as I did. Its not his or my position. And I think you already know that.

No, how would I know? In, fact I strongly believe in fairies, ghosts, re-incarnated people, werewolves, vampires and the like. In fact in all the demonic manifestations, such as 'familiar spirits', of these entities. I also believe in fallen angels.

We will get around to all of these if I have my way in the spiritual warfare thread - but you shouldnt participate unless you operate in the spiritual realm.
This means that to deny existence of any of the issues to be discussed would not be meaningful. Be aware.

MOGSA

lostexpectation wrote:

Im still waiting to here your thoughts on the Palestinian elections...

Is this for me? If so then read my post on the 'both sides' issue.

which definition of ungoldy is yours MOGSA

There are only two gods, one the God of Abraham and the other Satan (the god of this world) in my terms as stated previously. If I say ungodly then I refer to anyone who does not adhere to my God's requirements of them.
People are free to choose their god.

It might be contrary to your teachings (and it is not a good thing for anybody to be), but that doens't mean you are not self-righteous...

Hey, play the ball, not the man - isnt this the message? If I state where I want to be with my God, or how I should behave, then this cannot be self-righteousness. If I deem myself superior to you then this would be - but I am just on the narrow road to Jesus the same as everyone else - often falling off and getting back on - no more, no less - as stated several times already.

If for some strange reason you got on the same road it could be miles ahead of me.

I cannot judge you but I can judge your actions. To judge your actions I need a reference point - mine is the Word of God - the Bible.

HTH

Zombrex

MOGSA wrote:

Not outright, you have alluded to statements being lies often.

I not sure I remember ever doing that.

You seem to assume I must be calling someone a liar because you seem to only accept there are two possibilities to a religious story, either the person is telling the true and everything happened exactly as he/she said it did, or they are lying on purpose.

What you fail to see is the third, most likely possibility, that the person believes what he thinks he/she saw, is being honest in is recounting, but is mistaken in what he thinks he say or experience.

You yourself must actually realise this since you say you have respect for other religions, but I assume you don't actually believe the stories of the Quar'an or other non-religious texts. Do you believe that the followers of a religion like Islam are purposefully lying to you about their experiences of Allah?

MOGSA wrote:

Flexibility is a great asset even if it is just to acknowledge points of view of others.

MOGSA the only time I remeber using the term nonsense is in response to some very illogical attempts at distorting a scientific theory to fit within a Biblic story. The logic being used was nonsense, and I stand being me saying it is nonsense.

MOGSA wrote:

What else is there but personal accounts?

Well for a start there are multiple independent accounts. Then there is external verifiable evidence that can be independently verified and examined.

MOGSA wrote:

An x-ray shows a large spinal fracture after a horse riding accident - the doctors were wrong??

And what about the pictures of the aftermath of a recent AK47 shooting involving my son?

MOGSA I've no idea what you are referring to so how you expect me to comment is beyond me. Do you just expect everyone here to have a detailed accounts of your families medical history?

MOGSA wrote:

You do realise that it took us hours to position all the empty cartridges for the camera so they looked as if bursts of fire came from the various guns?

I've no idea what event you are referring too. If this links back to an earlier post I apologies, I have not read it

MOGSA wrote:

Facts, not self-righteousness!

You feeling sorry for me is not a "fact"

MOGSA wrote:

This is a disturbing statement ..... I need to let this one go and be judged by the community.

Pity is defined by sympathy for the suffering of others. If you are the only one who thinks a person is suffering, and that person doesn't think they are suffering themselves, it is not compassion it is pity.

MOGSA wrote:

I repeat the question to you.

Do you want a list of charities I donate too? How about references from my friends?

MOGSA wrote:

Ok.... the first challenge is to respond to a previous post and list the OT prophecies that are 'nonsense' to you and explain briefly why you think so.

All of them? Because last count over a third of the OT deals with prophecies.
http://www.bible-prophecy.com/otprophecies.htm

Can I not just say I don't think anyone can see into the future, therefore all prophecies, be they in the Bible or not, are at the most educated guess work and at the most stabs in the dark.

MOGSA wrote:

The second challenge is to provide your own definition of 'respect', not one found in the dictionary - your own words.

I assume you mean in relation to religious teaching.

To me religious respect is recongising that someone has the right to believe or practice any belief they want, so long as it falls within the law. You have the right to believe anything you like, and no one should tell you that you cannot believe in something or ask you to denounce an religious idea that you do believe in. No one should be censored from expressing there religion (within the law) or writing or posting about it.

MOGSA wrote:

The third challenge is to inform the thread community what qualifies you to state in your signature : 'This post was written for the universal improvement of mankind'. I have a genuine interest in what your qualifications are.

That was the sub-title of Jonathan Swift's "A Tale of Tub".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tale_of_a_Tub

I like the ironic tone of it.

MOGSA wrote:

Then why challenge my beliefs if I am entitled to them.

You are entitled to your beliefs. But if you post them on an internet discussion board, especially as facts, are you surprised that this is challanged?

If you cannot stand behind your beliefs don't post them on the public internet

MOGSA wrote:

No, how would I know?

I don't expect you to, but I assumed it was clear from the sentence structure that I was not putting forward that postion as an acceptable post in the Christianity forum. In fact I was using it as an example of what is not an acceptable post in the Christianity forum.

lostexpectation

MOGSA wrote:

Is this for me? If so then read my post on the 'both sides' issue.

There are only two gods, one the God of Abraham and the other Satan (the god of this world) in my terms as stated previously. If I say ungodly then I refer to anyone who does not adhere to my God's requirements of them.
People are free to choose their god.

And people are free to choose no GOD. (It is required that you recognise that). Even in the christianity forum which is a subsection of reality.

Zombrex

MOGSA wrote:

I cannot judge you but I can judge your actions. To judge your actions I need a reference point - mine is the Word of God - the Bible.

I would imagine you know very little about his "actions" in life. You are judging him and his life (and my life while we are at it) on the simple fact that he does not follow your religion. You seem to believe that those who follow your religion our more rightous simply by that fact. That is self-rightousness

MOGSA

lostexpectation wrote:

And people are free to choose no GOD. (It is required that you recognise that). Even in the christianity forum which is a subsection of reality.

I have stated, from the beginning of my posts, that you are free to choose.

I love that : 'which is a subsection of reality'. You may find it strange that I would agree with you about 60% of it! But clearly, in my terms, the other 40% is very real, more than real!

So onto the issues of spiritual warfare but very briefly to back these two statements up:

Your spirit is like a glass vessel. If you choose Satan, then his demons will fill it. If you choose not to believe there is a God then it is empty. If you choose the God of Abraham, then it will be filled with the Holy Spirit.
These are all mutually exclusive.

Why glass? Because the contents are very discernable as one can determine by the posts on the threads.

Like an empty shell on the bottom of the ocean shore, something is likely to make it's home there, sooner than later. And that something can only come from one of the other two.

As I said in another post, if you are not into operating in the spirit world, dont bother debating, alternatively, rather post the reply on the spiritual warfare thread.

I'm sure, however, that the individuals that think they 'know everything about everything' will attempt to do so. These are the guys (and you are not one of them) that 'google' and 'Yahoo' everything, picking what they choose to believe and then expounding on it as if it were their own.

Therefore if you respond, I'll take it you are one of the former or just have some questions.

Zombrex

MOGSA wrote:

I have stated, from the beginning of my posts, that you are free to choose.

I love that : 'which is a subsection of reality'. You may find it strange that I would agree with you about 60% of it! But clearly, in my terms, the other 40% is very real, more than real!

So onto the issues of spiritual warfare but very briefly to back these two statements up:

Your spirit is like a glass vessel. If you choose Satan, then his demons will fill it. If you choose not to believe there is a God then it is empty. If you choose the God of Abraham, then it will be filled with the Holy Spirit.
These are all mutually exclusive.

Why glass? Because the contents are very discernable as one can determine by the posts on the threads.

Like an empty shell on the bottom of the ocean shore, something is likely to make it's home there, sooner than later. And that something can only come from one of the other two.

As I said in another post, if you are not into operating in the spirit world, dont bother debating, alternatively, rather post the reply on the spiritual warfare thread.

I'm sure, however, that the individuals that think they 'know everything about everything' will attempt to do so. These are the guys (and you are not one of them) that 'google' and 'Yahoo' everything, picking what they choose to believe and then expounding on it as if it were their own.

Therefore if you respond, I'll take it you are one of the former or just have some questions.

No MOGSA, nothing self-rightious or insulting in that post :rolleyes:

MOGSA

Wicknight wrote:

I not sure I remember ever doing that.

You seem to assume I must be calling someone a liar because you seem to only accept there are two possibilities to a religious story, either the person is telling the true and everything happened exactly as he/she said it did, or they are lying on purpose.

What you fail to see is the third, most likely possibility, that the person believes what he thinks he/she saw, is being honest in is recounting, but is mistaken in what he thinks he say or experience.

Like a crime scene there are many versions of the incident- nevertheless, there was an incident. To refute an incident that I claim I have first-hand knowledge of, is calling me a liar - a very objectionable stance. :cool:

You yourself must actually realise this since you say you have respect for other religions, but I assume you don't actually believe the stories of the Quar'an or other non-religious texts. Do you believe that the followers of a religion like Islam are purposefully lying to you about their experiences of Allah?

While it doesnt have as many versions as Chrisitanity, there are several versions of Islam. The core values of Islam are similar to the OT (obviously with some differences) and provide magnificent praise of God.

How could I dispute the fact that God sent an angel? If the 'proper' moslems worthship the God of Abraham why should I not believe them? Why should I not share their praises of Him? Worshipping God is not demonic.

Some of their teachings such as qualifying for marriage and money lending prctices are lessons for all of us in our generally satanic-influenced western world.

If I were forced, I would choose to join the pure moslem faith to worship the God of Abraham than to join the Catholic church where the people consider the Pope ('the Holy Father') to be God. How is that for controversy? But of course, despite the anti-Christs reign, I wont be forced - God is still in control of the world for His chosen people.

What I questioned in one of my previous posts was the fact that God needed to provide a second version of His guide to living. This was more aimed at Mormons because of the deviations from the Bible in their book.

Of the other religious teachings, there are excellent texts about how to treat your fellow man. These are valid - however they are not unique and do not glorify the God of Abraham. I am more interested in the holistic health practices that emanate from these.


This is a typical devious question from someone who's 'spiritual glass' does not have the Holy Spirit filling it. I can only imagine the crap that could follow by answering this question without, at least some, of God's wisdom.

MOGSA the only time I remeber using the term nonsense is in response to some very illogical attempts at distorting a scientific theory to fit within a Biblic story. The logic being used was nonsense, and I stand being me saying it is nonsense.

Not true - your posts contradicting mine refer.

Well for a start there are multiple independent accounts. Then there is external verifiable evidence that can be independently verified and examined.

Yes, like xrays and photographs

MOGSA I've no idea what you are referring to so how you expect me to comment is beyond me. Do you just expect everyone here to have a detailed accounts of your families medical history?

I've no idea what event you are referring too. If this links back to an earlier post I apologies, I have not read it

From 2 - 3 days ago when you vigorously responded? How selective!

Pity is defined by sympathy for the suffering of others. If you are the only one who thinks a person is suffering, and that person doesn't think they are suffering themselves, it is not compassion it is pity.

let the thread community comment! I repeat ... your statement was disturbing.

Do you want a list of charities I donate too? How about references from my friends?

Giving money is so easy and actually is a 'feel good' thing. Real 'acts' in terms of your fellow man goes beyond helping your friends and is a measure of your humanity.

I try to only give to qualified churches who, alone IMO, have Gods' guidence on where and how that money should be spent. My gifts, on the otherhand, are used everywhere, sometimes astoundingly so, despite being fairly minor in some cases.

In my peculiar world of reality, we commit to giving 10% of our earnings as a matter of course. Then we are led by the Holy Spirit to give more (sometimes other than just money eg blankets, food, comfort even lodgings). Then we are still called on to provide the use of our 'gifts' (financial management, computer knowledge etc) to do His work.

Gods agreement with us is that all resources are His and that gifts are given to us by Him, to take away if needed. If we give Him 10% of our gains, using these resources, He will let us keep 90%. A good deal hey?

Now this is grounded in something you dispute the reality of - the Bible - and indeed, the oldest section of the Bible - Genesis 12:2; Remember to break the sentence into two parts eg I will bless you .... so that you will be a blessing - this is important as it reflects the whole basis of why worship of the God of Abraham is different to all other forms of religions.

You consider yourself moral and I have no basis to dispute that, so I ask you the question again in the expectation of an honest answer ... what is it you do for your fellow man? Not a once-off event, but continuously being mindful.

All of them? Because last count over a third of the OT deals with prophecies.
http://www.bible-prophecy.com/otprophecies.htm

Well most of them can be whittled away into less than a dozen main themes for these days so why dont you specify your top ten with your comments? Of course they should address different prophecies, not multiples of the same.

Can I not just say I don't think anyone can see into the future, therefore all prophecies, be they in the Bible or not, are at the most educated guess work and at the most stabs in the dark.

No, this was part of the challenge that you agreed to take and doesnt expose you more or less, if at all.

I assume you mean in relation to religious teaching.

Nope! How could I ask that of a man who does not consider himself religious. The challenge was for you to describe 'respect' in terms of the real world you live in (a 'world view'), leaving out the religious aspect.

Something I could use in your part of the world, or the Glasgow suburbs.

You are entitled to your beliefs. But if you post them on an internet discussion board, especially as facts, are you surprised that this is challanged?

If you cannot stand behind your beliefs don't post them on the public internet

Why would I publish them otherwise? But it would be nice to discuss issues with fellow Christians and reach conclusion without the noise factor. Maybe we should have a third forum just for debate purposes outside of the christianity discussion issues.

I don't expect you to, but I assumed it was clear from the sentence structure that I was not putting forward that postion as an acceptable post in the Christianity forum. In fact I was using it as an example of what is not an acceptable post in the Christianity forum.

Now you know that I didnt and what I believe in this area.

Please dont leave anything out in terms of the challenges.

Zombrex

MOGSA wrote:

Like a crime scene there are many versions of the incident- nevertheless, there was an incident. To refute an incident that I claim I have first-hand knowledge of, is calling me a liar - a very objectionable stance

Again, no its not. I have no idea if you are lying or not (tbh I'm not even sure what "incident" you are refering too, I assume you mean one where God spoke to you, or entered your spirit or some such)

MOGSA wrote:

While it doesnt have as many versions as Chrisitanity, there are several versions of Islam. The core values of Islam are similar to the OT (obviously with some differences) and provide magnificent praise of God.

Very diplomatic there MOGSA and also not answering the question at all.

Do you believe that Muslims, or Hindus or Baha'i or any of the other countless religions with different beliefs to Christianity are lying to you about their experiences that could be classified super-natural, experiences you obvious don't believe in or you woudl be a Hindu or Baha'i or Muslim.

MOGSA wrote:

How could I dispute the fact that God sent an angel?

Well obviously you don't believe in it since you aren't a Muslim nor do you follow the letter of the Quar'an.

MOGSA wrote:

Not true - your posts contradicting mine refer.

Please quote me back some of my posts and I will try and explain what I meant

MOGSA wrote:

From 2 - 3 days ago when you vigorously responded? How selective!

Ok you are referring to your wife being told by a doctor she would never walk again (you didn't link that to a horse riding accident before, nor did you mention your wife or even a member of your family this time. As I said I'm not a mind reader).

And my answer to you again would be that doctors don't know everything. But with no access to your wifes medical data their isn't much more I can tell you

MOGSA wrote:

Giving money is so easy and actually is a 'feel good' thing. Real 'acts' in terms of your fellow man goes beyond helping your friends and is a measure of your humanity.

For example...?

MOGSA wrote:

You consider yourself moral and I have no basis to dispute that, so I ask you the question again in the expectation of an honest answer ... what is it you do for your fellow man? Not a once-off event, but continuously being mindful.

In terms of money MOGSA, not much, not much. Well I give 41% of my salary to the people of Ireland, but I'm not sure if that counts.

I find it a little funny that you judge morality based on how much money someone gives to charity.

To me morality would be based more on your beliefs and actions directly related to those beliefs. For example, in your life do you make anyone suffer? I hope I don't.

MOGSA wrote:

Well most of them can be whittled away into less than a dozen main themes for these days so why dont you specify your top ten with your comments? Of course they should address different prophecies, not multiples of the same.

Does "all of them" not count as an answer?

MOGSA wrote:

Nope! How could I ask that of a man who does not consider himself religious. The challenge was for you to describe 'respect' in terms of the real world you live in (a 'world view'), leaving out the religious aspect.

Well "respect" in a completely general sense is rather, umm, general to define in a few sentences don't you think. The term "respect" also changes depending on context. I don't respect the actions of a murdered but I respect his right to a fair trial and I respect his right to life even after he has committed murder. I don't respect the fact the Martin Luther King cheated on his wife multiple times but I respect the work he did for the civil rights movement in the the USA in the 1960s and that he knew he was being targetted for assination but continued on regardless.

You can start of with the UN Declaration of Human Rights and work from there. I respect that document, and the rights that in bestows on all humans (notice it doesn't mention "God"). For me I respect that all humans have these rights, even if I don't respect aspects of their life.

MOGSA wrote:

Why would I publish them otherwise? But it would be nice to discuss issues with fellow Christians and reach conclusion without the noise factor.

It guess it would be, but then it isn't much of a challange if everyone agrees with you now is it

MOGSA wrote:

Now you know that I didnt and what I believe in this area.

lostexpectation

MOGSA wrote:

I have stated, from the beginning of my posts, that you are free to choose.

But you keep defining the choices for me...

There are only two gods, one the God of Abraham and the other Satan (the god of this world) in my terms as stated previously. If I say ungodly then I refer to anyone who does not adhere to my God's requirements of them.
People are free to choose their god.

As I said I choose no god...

Your spirit is like a glass vessel. If you choose Satan, then his demons will fill it. If you choose not to believe there is a God then it is empty. If you choose the God of Abraham, then it will be filled with the Holy Spirit.
These are all mutually exclusive.

Again with the knowledgeable insults.

Like an empty shell on the bottom of the ocean shore, something is likely to make it's home there, sooner than later. And that something can only come from one of the other two.

You label me empty twice and tell me I still only have your two choices.

Which contradicts your statement at the top of the post

MOGSA wrote:

I have stated, from the beginning of my posts, that you are free to choose.

Im not empty nor without spirit.

As I said in another post, if you are not into operating in the spirit world, dont bother debating, alternatively, rather post the reply on the spiritual warfare thread.

Who here is is operating in the spiritual world come on guys chip in?


The fact that you keep using the phrase 'spiritual warfare' says it all.

MOGSA

lostexpectation wrote:

But you keep defining the choices for me...

As I said I choose no god...

Of course you would if you dont believe there is a spirit world - this would be an obvious response ... we are talking at cross purposes again!

I am sorry, but in the spirit world there is either God or Satan with their various entourages. Then there are the 'n' number of variations of each.

Again with the knowledgeable insults.

You label me empty twice and tell me I still only have your two choices.

Which contradicts your statement at the top of the post

Im not empty nor without spirit.

I dont think your statements are relevent in terms of the previous statement about the spirit world.

Who here is operating in the spiritual world come on guys chip in?

Any mature Christian and many, many people on the 'Boards'. Dont you know how to identify those that oppose Jesus, what their psuedonyms mean and what they practice? Just look at some of the logos or dont you know the Babylonian witchcraft signs?

I now watch with interest as to the flood of deception about to appear.

The fact that you keep using the phrase 'spiritual warfare' says it all.

iro what?

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

Do you believe that Muslims, or Hindus or Baha'i or any of the other countless religions with different beliefs to Christianity are lying to you about their experiences that could be classified super-natural, experiences you obvious don't believe in or you woudl be a Hindu or Baha'i or Muslim.

I can't answer for MOGSA on this one. I'll give my comment.

Not at all. Their experiences are quite real. God tells us that we should test evrything to His word, which is the Bible. If the message doesn't agree with His word then it is not truth and the message comes from 'familiar spirits'.

So for Islam to say that Christ is a prophet and denies His divinity then the message is not from God, because it disagrees with God. Hindus say thatthere are many gods which contradicts God saying, 'Hear O Israel, The LORD your God is one'. Or Mary at Fatima where she instructs people to pray to her as opposed to God through Christ. Th eexperience is quite valid, the message is authentic, but the message is also designed to draw attention away from Christ, which is Satan's goal. To keep as many as possible away from God.

MOGSA

Wicknight wrote:

Again, no its not. I have no idea if you are lying or not (tbh I'm not even sure what "incident" you are refering too, I assume you mean one where God spoke to you, or entered your spirit or some such)

You are very confused.

Very diplomatic there MOGSA and also not answering the question at all.

You seem to have trouble reading my sentences. I have made it very clear that the base of my belief system starts with the God of Abraham and therefore any true believers in Him are acceptable to me as a minimal standard or baseline. Outside of this baseline there cannot be any acceptance.

In one of my previous posts I used the analogy of a house and its plan. I am living in the house so to speak, while others still argue about when the house will be built or the final touches to the plan. Of course the plan reflects the house design and vice versa.

Do you believe that Muslims, or Hindus or Baha'i or any of the other countless religions with different beliefs to Christianity are lying to you about their experiences that could be classified super-natural, experiences you obvious don't believe in or you woudl be a Hindu or Baha'i or Muslim

Well obviously you don't believe in it since you aren't a Muslim nor do you follow the letter of the Quar'an.

Your original statement was: Do you believe that the followers of a religion like Islam are purposefully lying to you about their experiences of Allah?

Almost everybody has supernatural experiences at some time or another, very few dont. These originate from either God or Satan. There is no conflict here.
The path I state I am following has been chosen for me - thru discussion during prayer. If God wanted me to be an x or y, I would be - there is nothing more intimidating than a personal experience with Him. That 'big finger' coming out of the clouds is far too real for my bowel control.

Please quote me back some of my posts and I will try and explain what I meant

Ok you are referring to your wife being told by a doctor she would never walk again (you didn't link that to a horse riding accident before, nor did you mention your wife or even a member of your family this time. As I said I'm not a mind reader).

And my answer to you again would be that doctors don't know everything. But with no access to your wifes medical data their isn't much more I can tell you

But I linked it to the opinion of one of our country's top specialists - that had to be based on tests, xrays etc. Your top doctors would'nt comment unless they had something similar to base their comments on.

If you are going to comment, read properly as well as all of it, please.

For example...?

Just take a look at any of the work undertaken by the various charities under institutions like the churches, Round Table etc. Do you know how many old people live abandoned in old-aged homes that would long for a visitor's kind touch or word, even if it is not from their family members? Or how many children, even in the UK are in hospital or homes, almost abandoned by their families?

In terms of money MOGSA, not much, not much. Well I give 41% of my salary to the people of Ireland, but I'm not sure if that counts.

I find it a little funny that you judge morality based on how much money someone gives to charity.

To me morality would be based more on your beliefs and actions directly related to those beliefs. For example, in your life do you make anyone suffer? I hope I don't.

I thought that it was very clear that giving only money was a 'feel good' action in most instances and had little to do being properly involved in terms of what you do for your fellow man. This would definitely be part of your morality.

Money buys bed-pans but not kindness and meaningful communication with another soul. Just teaching an old person to use the ATM properly would alleviate stress in their lives - just think about the skills (gifts) you have.

Does "all of them" not count as an answer?

You took the challenge ... this was the challenge, don't 'cop-out' just yet!

You probably dont believe this, but I do respect the intelligence placed behind your challenges and think that whatever you come up with would make good fodder for the debate.

Well "respect" in a completely general sense is rather, umm, general to define in a few sentences don't you think. The term "respect" also changes depending on context. I don't respect the actions of a murdered but I respect his right to a fair trial and I respect his right to life even after he has committed murder. I don't respect the fact the Martin Luther King cheated on his wife multiple times but I respect the work he did for the civil rights movement in the the USA in the 1960s and that he knew he was being targetted for assination but continued on regardless.

You can start of with the UN Declaration of Human Rights and work from there. I respect that document, and the rights that in bestows on all humans (notice it doesn't mention "God"). For me I respect that all humans have these rights, even if I don't respect aspects of their life.

You are correct in all of this. But my adopted definition (learnt from someone else - just to clear up matters) would be something applicable and agreeable to any moral person (no, this not a snipe at you - its a generic 'you'!). What about:

"Respect is treating the person/s concerned the way you would want to be treated if you were in their shoes"

Think murderers, the poor, tramps, alcoholics or old people etc or even people that post different views to yourself. People in different circumstances to yourself - but in which you one day could find yourself such as paralysed after a vehicle accident.

Did'nt my God state that you must not punish someone stealing food?

Of course the UN doesnt mention God. When it forces you to one day worship the Sun God (Ra or whoever they call it) on a Sunday within a one-world religion, you will think they are worse than I am.

It guess it would be, but then it isn't much of a challange if everyone agrees with you now is it

Its just that I need to get around a subject before the interference arrives - just to agree a baseline about something.

BTW I need to take a break from the Boards until the end of the week. Something about having to earn bucks as a mercenary software developer etc.

So dont 'zing' me to much while I am absent. Will still read, but probably not respond for next few days. Are'nt we all lucky?:D

ephraim

BrianCalgary wrote:

I can't answer for MOGSA on this one. I'll give my comment.

Not at all. Their experiences are quite real. God tells us that we should test evrything to His word, which is the Bible. If the message doesn't agree with His word then it is not truth and the message comes from 'familiar spirits'.

So for Islam to say that Christ is a prophet and denies His divinity then the message is not from God, because it disagrees with God. Hindus say thatthere are many gods which contradicts God saying, 'Hear O Israel, The LORD your God is one'. Or Mary at Fatima where she instructs people to pray to her as opposed to God through Christ. Th eexperience is quite valid, the message is authentic, but the message is also designed to draw attention away from Christ, which is Satan's goal. To keep as many as possible away from God.

Well said. I agree 100%. That is why so many people hate Christians. We will not accept any other God but Jesus. Ephraim