Can I remove myself from UCDSU?

Blowfish

Oirthir wrote:

Have a situation whereby members can opt-out and be reimbursed by the Union?

Sounds good! Where do I sign:)

pretty*monster

If you did opt out would you consider yourselves honour bound not to use the su shops, copy center, bars, night bus, etc?

Oirthir

pretty*monster wrote:

If you did opt out would you consider yourselves honour bound not to use the su shops, copy center, bars, night bus, etc?

I wouldn't plan on disassociating, was just offering an option. Hell, i'm not even in UCD, i'm ex-USI.

No SU shop in the country is only used by it's members, college staff always use them and I doubt a lot of them have lifted a finger to help their local SU.

It always surprised me that the people who are giving out about disassociation at local level are usually the first to call for their SU to leave USI. Is that not a wee bit of a double standard?

Blowfish

Blowfish wrote:

Yeah it is interesting, but i'm still wondering is it actually possible here?

No idea. I disagree with the idea of VSU anyways, but that's just me.

Font22

besty wrote:

I might come out of nowhere and wipe the floor with you!

i'd pay big money to see that

neutral

You don't need to change the constitution.

Anyone is free to leave the Union at any time.

The Union would be in big trouble if lots of people left, but I doubt many would bother. Unless of course you got a refund of some of your fees, in which case half the college would leave the Union.

Blowfish

neutral wrote:

You don't need to change the constitution.

Anyone is free to leave the Union at any time.

How do you go about it though?

neutral wrote:

The Union would be in big trouble if lots of people left, but I doubt many would bother. Unless of course you got a refund of some of your fees, in which case half the college would leave the Union.

That's true, but if people leave after first or second year, then surely they wouldn't have to pay the SU fees the next year, which might be more of an incentive to leave.

pretty*monster

Oirthir wrote:

No SU shop in the country is only used by it's members, college staff always use them and I doubt a lot of them have lifted a finger to help their local SU.

Of course, my question was one of honour (how wanky does that sound?). Would you (hypothetically) feel any guilt about availing of the union's services after implicitly rejecting the value of those services by opting out.

Oirthir wrote:

It always surprised me that the people who are giving out about disassociation at local level are usually the first to call for their SU to leave USI. Is that not a wee bit of a double standard?

Apples, oranges.
At local level it's a lot easier for ordinary students to change the way the union is run if they don't like it.
I'm personally in favour of a national union, but usi needs changing, but ordinary students are far lee empowered to change it, hense many (not me) see dasaffiliation as more practical.

Stabshauptmann

Blowfish wrote:

I don't quite agree with that, because you are assuming people are interested in what the union does in the first place...
...
... I just don't see them making any sort of impact on my own student life.

You've never used the shops or bar?:eek:
I myself use the trap,photocoppying, accomadation office and nitebus from time to time but recognise that a lot of students dont.
Then theres the balls, grindsfiles, bookshop, belfield FM and student activism which I dont get involved with.
But EVERYONE, has been to the bar at some stage before they leave UCD.

Out of all the things the SU does, student politics/activism is a small part, and you know this. I think you are just being childish in not admitting it and I think the greed for €50 is the only motivation for those seeking to leave the union.


I also don't believe that it is just me that feels that way, our class rep's election was interesting. We didn't have a class rep for 1st or 2nd year, and got on quite happily without one. The only reason we have one this year is because our student advisor made us elect one. The current class rep didn't actually want to be one, he was only elected because none of the rest of the class wanted it, and so decided that the best way to prevent themselves from being elected was to gang up on someone, and all vote for him.[/QUOTE]

Dave!

The current SU run the shop, bar, bookshop, etc., because they're the only one, that's the only reason. There's no other choice, because we're compelled to join, and there's no alternative at the moment. If there were 2 recognised SU's, then the other one would similarly provide amenities. They're only allowed have the bar there because the college lets them, and wants it there.

Stabshauptmann

I liked a lot of the economic arguements in that link. The position that best matchs my own opinion is:
"Furthermore, opponents of VSU liken fees to council rates or taxes - an unpleasant but necessary payment for those services which by necessity must be communally provided."

The union is more of a student council or government than a union in the tradtitional labour market sense. If you really feel the need to leave fine, but the SU doesnt take money from you, UCD does, and it invests money in activities and institutions that it sees as bettering the quality of student life/the student experience.

Blowfish

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

You've never used the shops or bar?:eek:

In three years I've used the bar once, and that was yesterday. I've been to the forum twice. I have never used the trap, photocopying, accomodation office, nitebus, niteline, any of the balls or ents events, bookshop, belfield FM or student activism. Admittedly I have used the shop a bit, but not enough to justify it, and I would have no problem in not using it if I wasn't a member of the SU.

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

I think you are just being childish in not admitting it and I think the greed for €50 is the only motivation for those seeking to leave the union.

Really? Well I don't see how, since my grant actually pays for it. I wouldn't get anything back if I left, or save myselft the howevermuch it is going to cost next year.

pretty*monster

DaveMcG wrote:

The current SU run the shop, bar, bookshop, etc., because they're the only one, that's the only reason. There's no other choice, because we're compelled to join, and there's no alternative at the moment. If there were 2 recognised SU's, then the other one would similarly provide amenities. They're only allowed have the bar there because the college lets them, and wants it there.

Why in god's name would we set up two unions? Disaffiliation from UCDSU is imo short-sighted and selfish, but setting up another union is nothing short of madness.

Blowfish

pretty*monster wrote:

Why in god's name would we set up two unions? Disaffiliation from UCDSU is imo short-sighted and selfish, but setting up another union is nothing short of madness.

Why do people say it's selfish? I'm quite happy with the union being there, and it does provide useful services to some people. If people want to get involved, and gain something out of it then great! I just feel that it shouldn't be obligatory to be a member.

And yes I agree two unions would be pointless.

Stepherunie

I agree, the only chance students have of getting things changed is by having a united voice, if there were to be two SUs in UCD it would be madness, there's enough problems at the moment trying to fight for students rights and ammendments to the introduction of modularisation - hell if i'm not careful i could have a very very watered down degree and will be kicking myself that i didn't take my place in uwe in england.

By having two SUs we'd be playing into the hands of brady and co. Divide and conquer so to speak, well students would be divided and the battle would be lost, right the SU isn't perfect, no point saying it's not, but do people really think that having two SUs will really make it better?

Stabshauptmann

Blowfish wrote:

In three years I've used the bar once, and that was yesterday. I've been to the forum twice. I have never used the trap, photocopying, accomodation office, nitebus, niteline, any of the balls or ents events, bookshop, belfield FM or student activism. Admittedly I have used the shop a bit, but not enough to justify it, and I would have no problem in not using it if I wasn't a member of the SU.
Really? Well I don't see how, since my grant actually pays for it. I wouldn't get anything back if I left, or save myselft the howevermuch it is going to cost next year.

Just so I get this right, you are admitting you use SU services, but you are not getting value for money, even though you arent actually paying for it.

Sounds like excellent value to me.

The college want to promotes a certain culture and improve the quality of life for the student body. They see a student governance body as the best way of doing this for many reasons and they choose to invest money in it. Thats their call.
The fact that you dont avail of these services (much) and dont like the culture the college is trying to promote does not give you the right to any money. Thats my first point, and a generic use of "you".

Since there is no refund to be had, if you want out of the union continue not to vote or use their services. If you want something official ask the president and the returning officer to have you struck off the books, explain to them you dont want any refund etc and I'd say they will oblige. And you'll be such a hero too :rolleyes:

Stabshauptmann

Blowfish wrote:

Why do people say it's selfish? I'm quite happy with the union being there, and it does provide useful services to some people. If people want to get involved, and gain something out of it then great! I just feel that it shouldn't be obligatory to be a member.

And yes I agree two unions would be pointless.

Well some possible explanations:
Its selfish if someone were being motivated just to get some quick cash.
It would be selfish if that person intended on becomeing a free rider, quitting the union but still using their services.
And it could be seen as selfish because you are putting your needs above the common needs of your fellow students.

Blowfish

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Just so I get this right, you are admitting you use SU services, but you are not getting value for money, even though you arent actually paying for it.

Sounds like excellent value to me.

Actually i'm saying that I don't see the point in the government paying for a service for me which I don't use much.

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

And you'll be such a hero too :rolleyes:

I like the way you are trying to make me out as a 'fight the system' type person. All I am actually saying is that everybody who goes to college will have completely different experiences. Some will use the SU, and get great service out of it. Others won't. For anyone to assume that the SU will play a significant part in every students experience is bull. Therefore students should have the option to choose whether or not they should be involved.

GusherING

I don't use the army much. I don't think my taxes should be paying for it. :rolleyes:

hullaballoo

GusherING wrote:

I don't use the army much. I don't think my taxes should be paying for it. :rolleyes:

That's quite a good point.

Stabshauptmann

Blowfish wrote:

Actually i'm saying that I don't see the point in the government paying for a service for me which I don't use much.

That really is their perrogtive though how they spend public funds, and how the college spends its funding, and the union its.

You cant get out of paying taxes, and you cant tell people how to spend their money; save for exercising your vote whenever possible.

Syth

neutral wrote:

You don't need to change the constitution.

Anyone is free to leave the Union at any time.

I looked into this and emailed the SU President. He says we can't leave the Union. What source do you have?

GusherING wrote:

I don't use the army much. I don't think my taxes should be paying for it.

I don't use the army much I don't think I should have to join it.

neutral wrote:

The Union would be in big trouble if lots of people left, but I doubt many would bother. Unless of course you got a refund of some of your fees, in which case half the college would leave the Union.

I think mass union departures would be one of the best things. It'd force the Union to do things most people want, or risk massive income losses.

TheVan

Syth wrote:

I looked into this and emailed the SU President. He says we can't leave the Union. What source do you have?

Two Supreme Court decisions make it clear that there is a constitutional right not to be compelled to be a member of a union - Educational C. Ltd. v Fitzpatrick (No 2) [1961] I.R. 345 and Meskell v. CIE [1973] IR 121.


Source - Constitutional Law in Ireland - James Casey

I could be missing something but in the grander scheme of things, there is a constitutional right to disassociation.

In Becton Dickinson v. Lee [1973] IR 1 Henchy J. suggested that there was no impediment to providing by contract that membership of a particular union should be a prerquisite for a particular employment.

However as far as I know, we didn't sign such a contract. We merely agreed to be members of the SU.

HappyCrackHead

I think TheVan is missing the point. Talking about constitutional law and trade unions is all well and good, but the UCDSU is not a trade union. Students unions, as an idea, are much much older than Trade Unions.

When you register for UCD you join the SU. No one makes you do it but it is part of the process. Like if you work for a certain company often you end up joining the Union without knowing about it.

If you wanna leave the SU you can do it passively by not using its services, shops,bars,photocopying,niteline,BFM,vending machines*(bet ya didnt think of that), ANY of the Student Centre,the right to bitch and moan to ur class reps,attaining any position within the union -obviously.

I'd like to say to anyone who wants to deal one to one with the university without the recourse to the union, good luck, cause you'll need it.

Personally i think this is a well worn topic...

TheVan

Well to be honest I don't think I'm missing the point.

I referred to unions but the right of association and disassociation refers to all clubs and associations.

Therefore I think the constitution does apply here.

And I don't think that not using the shop amounts to disassociation. If you disagreed with how the SU was representing you nationally and felt it didnt portray your views, not using the shop would hardly communicate that to the wider world. Actually leaving the SU would.

Chinafoot

kaptain redeye wrote:

I think you are just being childish in not admitting it and I think the greed for €50 is the only motivation for those seeking to leave the union.

Any chance you can make your point without being insulting?

Red Alert

Disaffiliation is a silly idea... the union which we are paying for and which the college does actually recognise to some degree is being misused by various people. Instead of setting up your own union, change the one we've got.

The shops (and the shop staff) do a great job. They are cheap and friendly and are doing a centra-style ripoff of the campus. The bars (particularly the manager) are another story, but nothing that cannot be worked on.

HappyCrackHead

The thing is we have a union, 50 years ago we didnt, and in the days of commodification of education and in particular UCD going the way it is a strong Union is what we need more than ever.

Perhaps you should all get more involved and change it for the better. some people, like Vainglory and pretty*monster, do a good job within the union but to anyone who pays attention they're a minority. Most people coast and use the union a bit like a social club, which it is kinda but that isnt why it was founded.

Stop moaning and make a diffeerence. Whether that be becoming a class rep or just getting involved on the ground with your own rep.

p.s. if u do go for class rep and lose dont become bitter help out whoever won, or alternatively if u succeed include ur competitors in whatever efforts you get involved in.

Its your union, use it.

GusherING

TheVan wrote:

Two Supreme Court decisions make it clear that there is a constitutional right not to be compelled to be a member of a union - Educational C. Ltd. v Fitzpatrick (No 2) [1961] I.R. 345 and Meskell v. CIE [1973] IR 121.


Source - Constitutional Law in Ireland - James Casey

I could be missing something but in the grander scheme of things, there is a constitutional right to disassociation.

In Becton Dickinson v. Lee [1973] IR 1 Henchy J. suggested that there was no impediment to providing by contract that membership of a particular union should be a prerquisite for a particular employment.

However as far as I know, we didn't sign such a contract. We merely agreed to be members of the SU.

If you join UCD, you are essentially joining the SU. You probably accept (and maybe never even questioned) the role of Unicare, a quasi police force who have no legitimacy outside of UCD to enforce the rgulations of UCD, so why do you not accept the SU? Or do you just reject it all? If so, why don't you leave UCD? It seems like the only recourse you have available, if you are to be successful? You can't have your cake and eat it at the same time!!

TheVan

Ok I think people have gotten the idea that I'm anti-union (I don't like the way it runs at the moment but thats why I'm going to run for SU rep) and I just want to tear it down and people seem to be suggesting that we work within the union.

Other people have been using this to give out about the SU.

That's not what this thread is about. It was a hypothetical question about whether you can disassociate yourself, as it is probably your right to. Is there a mechanism in place? I don't think we have a definitive answer yet.

As regards Unicare, I'm open to correction but I believe it is a service provided by the college so you can't have one without the other. The SU on the other hand is a student body seperate from (but working with) the college so you probably should be allowed to have your cake and eat it.