Can I remove myself from UCDSU?

Blowfish

HappyCrackHead wrote:

Perhaps you should all get more involved and change it for the better. some people, like Vainglory and pretty*monster, do a good job within the union but to anyone who pays attention they're a minority. Most people coast and use the union a bit like a social club, which it is kinda but that isnt why it was founded.

Stop moaning and make a diffeerence. Whether that be becoming a class rep or just getting involved on the ground with your own rep.

*sigh* Once again, you are missing the point entirely. Did you ever stop to think for a moment that there are people who simply do not want to get involved in the union? You seem to be breaking it down to the fact that you are either for or against the unions policies. You are missing out on the fact that there are simply people who are not interested in how the SU is run. I agree the likes of Vainglory and pretty*monster are doing a good job, but it still doesn't change the fact that not everyone wants to get involved or be associated with the SU.

panda100

Slightly off topic but I am shocked ,considering that the su was voted most exassperating topic at the boards awards, that so many people on here are planning to run for a class rep position next year.What with paul D back and reps including firespinner,the van,happycrackhead etc it will be a very intresting union next year

Syth

HappyCrackHead wrote:

vending machines*(bet ya didnt think of that)

Not all vending machines. For example the vending machines in the science block opposite the union shop are not run by the union. Firstly they sell Coke. Secondly next time one of them swollows your change try asking the staff in the union shop if the union runs those machines.

Non-union members are well able to use some union services, such as the shops and student centre. None of the staff tell them to leave.

And the student centre is not fully for students. Just ask some small societies aout the UCD orchestra.

HappyCrackHead

I realise what the topic of converstaion here is, whether or not someone can opt out of the union, i'm sure its possible but probably awkward, and as many people have pointed out probably pointless.

I acknowledge that not everyone wants to be involved in the union. However, they then shouldnt really turn around and bitch and moan about it. I dont really enjoy having to debate any issues to do with the union, as it stands i agree with TheVan, its not doing the job it should. we're probably coming from different directions here. but it is our union and if you arent involved you cant really change the things you find fault with.

humbert

HappyCrackHead wrote:

but it is our union and if you arent involved you cant really change the things you find fault with.

You could if you could opt out.

HappyCrackHead

humbert wrote:

You could if you could opt out.

uh... no you couldnt.

wait... ok, i suggest that someone ATTEMPT this and report back with the results. Considering we're out of term now that'll mean waiting till September. You've all summer to investigate and forumulate you're own union.

Godspeed.

arbeitsscheuer

If you can't just opt out of using State-provided facilities, and thereby providing justification for not paying taxes, then you can't just opt out of using SU-provided facilities, and thereby provide justification for not being "in" the union.

HappyCrackHead wrote:

I'd like to say to anyone who wants to deal one to one with the university without the recourse to the union, good luck, cause you'll need it.

Spot on.

neutral

Of course the SU President told you that you can't leave the Union!

The Union would do anything it could think of to avoid members leaving, including pretending that they're not allowed.

That doesn't change the fact that you are entitled under law to not join or to leave any association of any type.

The Bars are open to anyone with a student card or staff i.d., not just members of the Union and the shops are open to the public, so all you'd lose out on is the right to vote or run for election.

I doubt you'd get any money back though, especially if you're acting alone.

So the only reason any normally apathetic students would want to leave would be if the Union stood for something they couldn't accept being associated with, be it campaigning for the invasion of Iraq, the re-introduction of fees, the leagalisation of abortion, the criminalisation of homosexual acts or the re-introduction of the death penalty.

If a well organised group were to arrange for like-minded people to leave the Union, then they'd probably have the critical mass to force the College to refund part of their fee, or at least divert it into sports clubs, the library, etc.

The real damage to the Union wouldn't be financial though, it would be the fact that it could no longer claim to represent all the students of UCD.

Which is why the Union should seek to represent ALL the students of UCD, while it still has the right to claim to do so.

humbert

well put, and the parallel between the state and the union I don't agree with, imo the state and the college would be a more accurate parallel, did the SU fund the building of these services? If it did than my respect for it would increase.

Blowfish

HappyCrackHead wrote:

I acknowledge that not everyone wants to be involved in the union. However, they then shouldnt really turn around and bitch and moan about it. I dont really enjoy having to debate any issues to do with the union, as it stands i agree with TheVan, its not doing the job it should. we're probably coming from different directions here. but it is our union and if you arent involved you cant really change the things you find fault with.

Once again I don't have a problem with it, I am not moaning or bitching about it, I would just prefer not to be involved with it. Think of it as one of the societies. They provide services and help to people of different interests, but if someone is not going to use the services or help, and doesn't have an interest in what the society is about, they shouldn't have to join it.

HappyCrackHead wrote:

I'd like to say to anyone who wants to deal one to one with the university without the recourse to the union, good luck, cause you'll need it.

I mentioned earlier that we didn't have a student-staff rep until this year. The reason we do this year is because we were made have one, after having one on one dealings with the university. I have to say that we have used our student-staff rep several times, and in each and every case, the student advisor and department have been extremely helpful, and done everything they could for us. I don't see a problem in this aspect.

SebtheBum wrote:

If you can't just opt out of using State-provided facilities, and thereby providing justification for not paying taxes, then you can't just opt out of using SU-provided facilities, and thereby provide justification for not being "in" the union.

As was mentioned earlier by TheVan, there is a difference between college provided services and SU ones. The college provided services (lectures etc. included) are equivalent to the governmental ones, with the fees being the equivalent of tax. The SU is a seperate organisation, (like a workers union) which is seperate from the college.

HappyCrackHead wrote:

wait... ok, i suggest that someone ATTEMPT this and report back with the results. Considering we're out of term now that'll mean waiting till September. You've all summer to investigate and forumulate you're own union.

Syth tried to leave the SU, with this (wonderfully helpful:rolleyes:) reply. Wanting to be dissasociated with the union does not mean that I would be interested in starting another one.

The_Minister

It would be fascinating if people began to walk out - they'd probably need to increase the fee for the SU loan on the student centre......then more would leave....and the fee would rise again......and more would leave....and the union would collapse!!! Then, finally, students could get back to learning and not deal with irrelevent issues. We could dance and sing and drink Coke to our hearts content, wearing Nike t-shirts and eating Nestle products, while sitting beside the lake with binoculars and spotting US war planes flying overhead.....Ah Heaven.

humbert

HappyCrackHead

neutral wrote:

So the only reason any normally apathetic students would want to leave would be if the Union stood for something they couldn't accept being associated with, be it campaigning for the invasion of Iraq, the re-introduction of fees, the leagalisation of abortion, the criminalisation of homosexual acts or the re-introduction of the death penalty.

i hate to change the topic of this thread ever so briefly but i dont think u can compare the legalisation of abortion to any of the other things you've listed. many people in ucd are pro-choice, possibly as many as are pro-life. i find this juxtaposition insulting to those of us who see the legalisation of abortion in ireland as a progressive move. yes people in ucd would oppose it campaigning for the legalisation for abortion, however i think we'd have to wait and see how many would come out in favour.

actually dont bother to reply to this i cant be arsed with the argument. though the idea that ur name is neutral is terribly deceiving.

pretty*monster

I over heard a conversation in work over the summer between a couple of members of the cleaning staff.
It seems that they'd all opted out of their trade union a while back. After all, what were they doing paying their union fees, the union never did anything for them. Heck, they didn't need a union.
Only now, management was f*cking them over, and ooops, no union. So they were scrambling around trying to organise and cursing themselves for opting out.

Think about it.

And as for this argument that 'I don't use the services, I don't want to be involved, I don't want to be associated.' The selfishness boggles my mind... I don't use the Welfare office, I don't take grinds, I don't partake of many services that the union provideds, I probably never will.
But for god's sake, other students do!
An injury to one is an injury to none? No, not anymore apparently.
I'm personally glad that there is a safety net of sorts there to look out for students even if I never use it.
I mean, I know we live in an era of rampant, unhealthy, individuals but this really takes the biscuit.


Finally, I have absolutely zero time for this "I don't like how the union operates but I don't want to get involved" crap.
Believe me, when I started back in September I had very little desire, to have meeting after bloody meeting about modularisation, to chase students around practically begging for their opinion on it (and to be accused by many later of having gone against students wishes), writing endless notes and giving endless lecture addresses on the subject, spend an afternoon in Quinn trying to talk commerce students into protesting, and generally running around, missing classes to do thankless, boring grunt work. (I'm not trying to sound like a matyr here, but I really resent Blowfish's implication that we all do this for the craic).
No, none of it was fun (except the protesting .
But you don't do it because it's fun, or because it interests you.
You do it because if you believe that something is wrong and you think you can change it there is no excuses for not doing something about it.

It's your union. You can change it if you want to. If you can't be bothered to, then what is the point of even holding an opinion on the matter?


Yeah, legally you probably can remove yourself from the union.
I've yet to see a good reason for doing so though.

Oirthir

From reading this thread, it appears that people think UCDSU only do two things - protest and sell stuff.

While that may be the public image of the SU, you've got to remember that the officers sit on countless committees representing the views of the student body. The only way to make sure that the officers represent the majority view is to voice an opinion.

If you take the view of 'Sure they'll do that with or without my €XYZ, why should I pay?' then frankly, you're a bloody leech.

If, for instance, VainGlory got some really annoying thing changed about, say, exam protocols or something, would the 'non-members' stick to the old regime?

neutral

HappyCrackHead, I was just listing a few examples of stances the Union could take that would make it morally and ethically unacceptable for some people to be associated with it.

You're probably right, perhaps I should have included campaigning for an EU-wide ban on abortion alongside campaigning for the legalisation of it in Ireland for the sake of being more complete.

Essentially my point was this:

I'd leave the Union if it was campaigning for the criminalisation of homosexual acts or the re-introduction of the death penalty, because I feel so strongly on those issues that I would find it morally unacceptable to be associated with ths Union in such a case.

I know many people would feel exactly the same way about it campaigning for an EU-wide ban on abortion or campaigning for the legalisation of abortion in Ireland.

HappyCrackHead

Neutral thank you for clarifying.

I'm going to have no more involvement in this discussion. I find it a pointless and tiresome exercise.

singingstranger

HappyCrackHead wrote:

p.s. if u do go for class rep and lose dont become bitter help out whoever won, or alternatively if u succeed include ur competitors in whatever efforts you get involved in.

Its your union, use it.

Can't be said enough, this - I was beaten in our Rep elections. Ended up on Exec within a month. It doesn't hurt to stay involved, folks!

Also, I'm not sure if there's a huge distinction between a Trade Union and a Students' Union. I mean, a TU exists to campaign for the welfare of its members and to act as resistance against decisions/procedures that endanger the wellbeing, workplace-or-otherwise, of its members. Whereas an SU ... oh, wait...

The_Minister

pretty*monster wrote:

Finally, I have absolutely zero time for this "I don't like how the union operates but I don't want to get involved" crap.

I think many people don't understand the union, and thus resent it as an alien body. Recently an aquaintance asked me if class reps could vote "in the union deiscions" - he didn't knw that it was called council! Many people don't know how to run for positions, apply for certain services etc.

HappyCrackHead wrote:

p.s. if u do go for class rep and lose dont become bitter help out whoever won, or alternatively if u succeed include ur competitors in whatever efforts you get involved in.

I would feel like such a loser if I didn't get in and hung-round the place begging for administrative scraps to be haughtily tossed to me by the victor.

HappyCrackHead

Firespinner wrote:

I would feel like such a loser if I didn't get in and hung-round the place begging for administrative scraps to be haughtily tossed to me by the victor.

That reflects your own inadquacies perhaps. Look at singingstranger, he lost and became union secretary. i think the idea that you'd be begging for administrative scraps is a tad OTT. on the other hand if the victor was an ass that'd be different. the problem is, and im sure u noticed, there was supposed to be 120 odd reps this year and the 2nd last council was barely in quora with 33... going inquorum occasionally.

its peoples ignorance of the union that gets crap reps elected, who go on to become crap officers, then crap sabbats and make crap presidents...

face facts u know who im talking about...

Blowfish

HappyCrackHead wrote:

its peoples ignorance of the union that gets crap reps elected, who go on to become crap officers, then crap sabbats and make crap presidents...

In fairness though that isn't really the fault of the non union involved students. If they aren't told how it works, and aren't the type to go to council meetings or whatever, how are they supposed to find out? In fact I had no idea there was a council that met every couple of weeks until I read about it here.

The_Minister

Our president elect will make a fine (albeit relaxed) president.
btw where are the new class reps allocated too? (I voted no as I thought the increased size would make quorum difficult to achieve)
Since the council is bigger will it have to be held in th L?

Chinafoot

HappyCrackHead wrote:

its peoples ignorance of the union that gets crap reps elected, who go on to become crap officers, then crap sabbats and make crap presidents...

face facts u know who im talking about...

If you are referring to Dan Hayden do you not think it would make a bit more sense to wait until he actually take his position as president before throwing around comments like that?

As for people's ignorance. I'm with Blowfish on this one. If people are not inclined to go search for the info then they won't find it. It's not exactly something made very obvious in UCD.

Byrno

It would be fascinating if people began to walk out - they'd probably need to increase the fee for the SU loan on the student centre......then more would leave....and the fee would rise again......and more would leave....and the union would collapse!!!

If people walked out of the union they'd still have to pay the Student Centre Levy as it is separate to the SU. Even if people were to get money back from the college if they left the SU, which is highly unlikely, it would only be 16 euro. 11 euro goes to the SU from the college and 5 euro goes to USI. In all honesty for 16 euro you get good value from the SU.



I think singingstranger would be able to explain this better but I think the class reps are going to be actually class reps next year, as far as possible. So therefore 1st Psych will have a rep, so will 1st Music and 1st Politics. I think in my own class in med we're going to get 2 reps per class instead of just 1.

HappyCrackHead

The plan is around... 1 rep per 150 students. the whole thing has to be sorted out with returning officer Morgan Shelly.

I wasnt referring to Dan Hayden but thanks for noticing. I've yet to pass judgement on Dan... though he has been acting president for a month.

I was elected unopposed to 1st arts group F when i started my ucd career. I didnt know that i had actually been elected until after class rep training (having not been informed of that either) i never knew when council was and to be honest i was a shít rep. I was. It was partly my fault and partly the system.

Its up to the exec officers to keep the students/later the reps informed and the reps duty to keep their class informed. thats how its supposed to work. if it did we wouldnt be talking like this.

Chinafoot

HappyCrackHead wrote:

The plan is around... 1 rep per 150 students. the whole thing has to be sorted out with returning officer Morgan Shelly.

I wasnt referring to Dan Hayden but thanks for noticing. I've yet to pass judgement on Dan... though he has been acting president for a month.

Be sure to keep us informed oh wise one :rolleyes:

At the end of the day, all of the information I have ever received on the SU has come from here. Boards.ie. A website that is an entirely separate entity from the union and the college itself.

Thats pretty poor imo. The only time I ever see anything on campus is when there is a vote coming up.

It seems to me to be less a case of people's ignorance of the union, and more a problem with information provided by the union. But then again I have no interest, so what do I know?

HappyCrackHead

peachypants wrote:

Be sure to keep us informed oh wise one :rolleyes:

[joke]smart ass.... [/joke]

its something like that anyway. i wasnt actually referring to anyone in particular though a few names did come to mind. i was more seeing who you all would think i meant...

pychological games involving the mind...

Chinafoot

HappyCrackHead wrote:

i was more seeing who you all would think i meant...

Tbh though, most people may have thought you were referring to Dan due to some of your previous posts, and not necessarily because we think he was or will be shít.

HappyCrackHead

to be honest my description was probably more apt for outgoing president Jimmy Carroll.

but yeah i take it out of both of them... and for good reason. IMO.

anyway we're getting off topic... has this one not yet been wound up?

Red Alert

I think we need a 'back to basics action plan' for the SU. it would be split into a few different sections and different people should be made responsible for carrying out their alloted steps. Two areas which come to mind are:

Class Reps: HappyCrackHead hit the proverbial nail on his head; there are many class reps floating around doing very little and it's not entirely their own fault. I'm nearly inclined to believe the incoming first years are a bit more SU-aware than we were, as there's a particularly active class rep in Engineering (Jennifer Murphy). Every class rep should have a class rep e-mail address like 1stengrep@su.ucd.ie, and their details should be available through the SU website or UCD Connect (for privacy) or the like. Attendance at council should be made de-facto mandatory and a set enforced number of days attendance should be made.

Bars: There are enough threads complaining about both bars' prices, music, decor, hours, security, staff to fill a whole forum. A subcommitee or person with the power to recommend anything up to dismissal/replacement of current bar management should be put in to monitor the situation.