New Aldi In Celbridge, over 18s only

Boggles

K-TRIC wrote:

This thread is full of "experts" , it's a pity you didn't all stay till the end of law school.

I will personally look up the law governing this later and post it. Short version is - A shop is a private building. The shop owner does not have to give a reason if he doesnt want to let you in. If he does give a reason then it has to be a valid one.

Well Matlock since your the law expert you go do that. I would also read your own statement again, it's a complete Contradiction. A private building does not have to let anyone in and certainly does not have to provide a reason for not doing so.

Aldi is a business providing a service or goods. The Equality Act certainly applies to them. On your expert opinion they could legally have an "No Irish" sign up and it would be perfectly acceptable.

pyure

I find it kinda funny that the reason for the ban is that alcohol is on display, as they have to be the most strict place i know on selling drink.

the last time i tried, i got refused - despite have passport, college id and a usit card all proving i was 22. I was told garda id or nothing. laughed my ass off and never went back.

will be interesting to see if anyone challenges this and the outcome

Thirdfox

Passport/driver license/garda ID can all be used to prove identity (by law).

They should accept it

Our man in Havana

It seems they are free to only accept that ID they want, in this case the Garda Age Card. If they wanted they could say you had to be a member of the free masons to get in.

Laplandman

Or use the secret knock.

Thirdfox

Bond-007 wrote:

It seems they are free to only accept that ID they want, in this case the Garda Age Card. If they wanted they could say you had to be a member of the free masons to get in.

Really? I thought it was "one of the above" rather than one that they specify.

How do you join the free masons?

Our man in Havana

Thirdfox wrote:

Really? I thought it was "one of the above" rather than one that they specify.

How do you join the free masons?

Tescos have a similar policy.

As for joining the masons, as you say your a law student, you are already on the road to membership!

segadreamcast

I'd say the ban might have been partially inspired by a 14/15 year old being arrested in the Ballymun/Santry Ave. Lidl for (if I remember correctly) running amok and, perhaps, attacking members of staff?

snickerpuss

I think its really funny how you can not let 18yr olds in places or have over 21 bars, but when you don't let older people in they sue and are found to have been discriminated against.
Example (from equality.ie)
The Equality Authority welcomes the decision by the Office of the Director of Equality Investigations (ODEI) which upheld that, a man aged 72 years who was refused entry to the Q Bar, was the victim of age discrimination. This is the first successful case by an older person on the age ground under the Equal Status Act, 2000.
Link to story here
I think its rubbish that with younger people its not age discrimation but when you're older it is? Surely it has to work both ways.

Our man in Havana

From reading that a young person would have a case here.

Thirdfox

Maybe the presence of alcohol changes it? e.g. a 16 year old cannot cue that nightclub for not letting them in as they are underage...

lostexpectation

its a supermarket not a pub

Bottle_of_Smoke

I heard it's because all the girls working the tills at that branch work topless

blorg

snickerpuss wrote:

I think its really funny how you can not let 18yr olds in places or have over 21 bars, but when you don't let older people in they sue and are found to have been discriminated against.
Example (from equality.ie)
The Equality Authority welcomes the decision by the Office of the Director of Equality Investigations (ODEI) which upheld that, a man aged 72 years who was refused entry to the Q Bar, was the victim of age discrimination. This is the first successful case by an older person on the age ground under the Equal Status Act, 2000.
Link to story here
I think its rubbish that with younger people its not age discrimation but when you're older it is? Surely it has to work both ways.

The bit on that case does also say "Cases have been won by Travellers, young people, a parent with children and now an older person." - I don't know, but maybe it is possible that it is?

snickerpuss

I would hope so, i can't imagine age discrimination is only true for older people.

mloc

in fairness its aldi. they make most of thier money from 16-year old mothers coming in to by their crap german branded oven chips, sliced pan and johnny blues.

they'll lose half thier customers.

BuffyBot

they make most of thier money from 16-year old mothers coming in to by their crap german branded oven chips, sliced pan and johnny blues.

Been there much? They don't sell cigarettes for a start. Plus their bread is as good as any of the other supermarkets.

Haven't tried the chips yet mind you, but German or not, I doubt they'll be that bad..

lostexpectation

BuffyBot wrote:

Been there much? They don't sell cigarettes for a start. Plus their bread is as good as any of the other supermarkets.

Haven't tried the chips yet mind you, but German or not, I doubt they'll be that bad..

wheres does their stuff actually come from?

Max_Damage

As far as I know, the cat food comes from Russia.

colm_mcm

maybe they just don't want kids running around the place, opening up all the boxes, and nicking things. Seems reasonable enough to me.

homah_7ft

colm_mcm wrote:

maybe they just don't want kids running around the place, opening up all the boxes, and nicking things. Seems reasonable enough to me.

Surely they don't want people of any age engaging in that behaviour so I think they should ban everyone.

X-SL

Ì'm 16 and I think it's a great idea. Businesses should be able to restrict anyone they want. (Unless the business is a monoply.)

colm_mcm

can't see that working

The unique thing about Aldi and Lidl stores, compared to other supermarkets is that they only have about 3 or 4 staff on for the whole store.

They can't say that that's why they're banning them, but I'm sure that's the reason.

Also I've seen countless teens trying to steal/buy alcohol there.

steviec

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Again, wrong. There is a difference between the legal protection of the welfare of minors (no alcohol sales) and protection of society from minors (no under 18 voting), and discrimination against minors based purely on age. If you're going to dicriminate against age, you must prove that age is a factor in a) their behaviour, and b) their effect on your business.

So for example an insurance company can quite happily discriminate based on age, since age is a factor in how their clients's behaviour will affect their business model, but a shop cannot prevent someone they judge too young (or too old) from entering.

If it's ok for an insurance company to say that your more likely to be in an accident because you're young, surely its ok for the same reasons for a supermarket to say your'e more likely to shoplift and less likely to spend 100 quid on a weeks shopping for the family if you're young?

Julesie

well my bf works in the shop that all the little 16 year old scumlets come to when they arent allowed into aldi.

its a good idea illegal or not

parsi

Thirdfox wrote:

Passport/driver license/garda ID can all be used to prove identity (by law).

They should accept it

Not if you want to claim the dole. Birth cert (long form) only accepted.

Our man in Havana

parsi wrote:

Not if you want to claim the dole. Birth cert (long form) only accepted.

Actually I have never ever been asked for a birth cert when claiming the dole or any other payments. Little point asking me for mine as I changed my name since and I am not the same person anymore.

BuffyBot

wheres does their stuff actually come from?

Naas. Well, it's warehoused there

Their stock comes from Ireland, the UK, Germany, France, Italy, every country under the sun..much like any supermarket

colm_mcm

their ice cream, and desserts are better than practically any big brand

Hobbes

garred wrote:

It is about the alcohol according to their head office statement. Their explanation is that they don't have a seperate shop for their alcohol, its on open display.

Sounds like pure ass covering BS. The local tesco has alcohol on open display. You just can't buy it if your under age.

If it was a law then a lot of Tescos would be in trouble now wouldn't they.

Our man in Havana

And every Dunnes and Supervalu too!

Hobbes

K-TRIC wrote:

I will personally look up the law governing this later and post it. Short version is - A shop is a private building. The shop owner does not have to give a reason if he doesnt want to let you in. If he does give a reason then it has to be a valid one.

Funny you mention that. One of my first jobs the receptionist was refused entry into Clearys one day. She asked why and wasn't given a reason just told she wasn't allowed in. She rang the place and was told she was a known shoplifter (according to the security who refused her entry). A day later after a chat with the solicitors she got a written apology, 100 punt gift voucher and the security guard was reprimanded.

Our man in Havana

They got off lightly there. A huge defamation case could have ensued.

Thirdfox

Qualified privilege? (Just asking - since I've my tort exams soon )

Our man in Havana

see http://indigo.ie/~kwood/defamation.htm

Qualified privilege attaches to communications where the informant has a legal, moral or social duty to communicate the information and the recipient has a similar duty to receive it. For example, a person may write to an employer making allegations of dishonesty or incompetence against an employee. If the allegations are made in good faith, even if they are factually wrong, the communication is not actionable. This privilege is defeated by proof of malice.

Thirdfox

But doesn't the security guard have a duty to inform the store that s/he suspects that the lady is a shoplifter?

S/he presumably did not shout out that "You are a shoplifter!" in the vicinity of other people... so wouldn't qualified privilege be a good defence here?

colm_mcm

Aldi isn't discriminating against the OP because he's a shoplifter, or putting him in a potentially embrrasing situation. They're simply excercising their right to refuse entry by unaccompanied minors

snickerpuss

colm_mcm wrote:

Aldi isn't discriminating against the OP because he's a shoplifter, or putting him in a potentially embrrasing situation. They're simply excercising their right to refuse entry by unaccompanied minors

I'd be pretty embarrased if i was 17 and in university and not allowed into a shop without my mammy in case i touched anything.

L31mr0d

I doubt it is cost effective to hire a security guard to stop kids entering their store. Even if they are stealing stock, it would have to be more than the amount of money they are paying for security and the hit (however marginal it is) of losing the business of minors. Either they where getting seriously vandalised and fleeced or this is simple to stop yobs hanging out in the store. I'd say there was gangs of 15yr/olds hanging out by the alcohol and they just threw up the ban.

Problem is, a lot of kids would have going to the shops to pick up a few messages as their chore or be told to pick up stuff on the way home from school. They are cutting off all that extra revenue as well. I can't see this action benefiting them much, so i'd have to imagine they where meant to enforce it. Although the fact most other newsagents sell alcohol in some form must mean there was a particular problem at this store.

Has this ban been implemented nation wide?

faceman

snickerpuss wrote:

I'd be pretty embarrased if i was 17 and in university and not allowed into a shop without my mammy in case i touched anything.

Im sure you would put what a lot of posters are forgetting is that under Irish Law, people under the age of 18 (including 17, 17 and a half, 17 and 3 quarters) are still considered minors, children. If you have an issue with that best take it up with Bertie!

As i said earlier, cos ur a minor the store are free to tell ye not to come in all they please cos the law aint goin to give a toss!

Dont worry as soon as you pass the magical number of 18, its all downhill from there!

blu_sonic

so if you were in college and you were 17 but went in with a friend who was 18 would that be ok, seeing as your "with an adult".

colm_mcm

of course

donspeekinglesh

NoelRock wrote:

I'd say the ban might have been partially inspired by a 14/15 year old being arrested in the Ballymun/Santry Ave. Lidl for (if I remember correctly) running amok and, perhaps, attacking members of staff?

I haven't noticed any signs banning under-18s up in that Aldi recenty.

Beruthiel

mp3guy wrote:

I try to get in either way, as I'm 17 and look well over 18, and I'm asked for ID.

excellent stuff, you're saying I can shop there in peace then?

snickerpuss

faceman wrote:

Im sure you would put what a lot of posters are forgetting is that under Irish Law, people under the age of 18 (including 17, 17 and a half, 17 and 3 quarters) are still considered minors, children. If you have an issue with that best take it up with Bertie!

As i said earlier, cos ur a minor the store are free to tell ye not to come in all they please cos the law aint goin to give a toss!

Dont worry as soon as you pass the magical number of 18, its all downhill from there!

Actually i'm 19 i just find things like that really annoying.

click here

Just got linked to this thread via tcal.net.

I have to say, I agree with Slutmonkey (great name!). S/he is pretty-much on the money. Under the Equal Status Acts, providers of goods and services may not in principle discriminate on the basis of age (as well as 8 other grounds).

The fact that Aldi (or any other enterprise) is a private business or the fact that someone is a minor doesn't enter into it.

See www.equality.ie for more info.

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

"Management reserves the right to refuse admission"

This is legally valid - up to the point that the management must be able to provide a valid reason, and that reason cannot be based on anything discriminatory - whether that is race, religion, gender, age, ethnic background, or Fleck Tash. So if you had travellers robbing the store before, you are not entitled to refuse travellers entry - only those people who you have proof are robbing.

Thirdfox

I think the Constitution would trump that...

Anyway looking at the relevant legislation (Equal Status Act 2000) (find it here: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/front.html)

"(2) As between any two persons, the discriminatory grounds (and the descriptions of those grounds for the purposes of this Act) are:

(a) that one is male and the other is female (the "gender ground"),

(b) that they are of different marital status (the "marital status ground"),

(c) that one has family status and the other does not or that one has a different family status from the other (the "family status ground"),

(d) that they are of different sexual orientation (the "sexual orientation ground"),

(e) that one has a different religious belief from the other, or that one has a religious belief and the other has not (the "religion ground"),

(f) subject to subsection (3), that they are of different ages (the "age ground"),

(g) that one is a person with a disability and the other either is not or is a person with a different disability (the "disability ground"),

(h) that they are of different race, colour, nationality or ethnic or national origins (the "ground of race"),

(i) that one is a member of the Traveller community and the other is not (the "Traveller community ground"),

(j) that one—

(i) has in good faith applied for any determination or redress provided for in Part II or III,

(ii) has attended as a witness before the Authority, the Director or a court in connection with any inquiry or proceedings under this Act,

(iii) has given evidence in any criminal proceedings under this Act,

(iv) has opposed by lawful means an act which is unlawful under this Act, or

(v) has given notice of an intention to take any of the actions specified in subparagraphs (i) to (iv),

and the other has not (the "victimisation ground").

(3) Treating a person who has not attained the age of 18 years less favourably or more favourably than another, whatever that other person's age, shall not be regarded as discrimination on the age ground.""

---

So age can be discriminated against (just not old age).

faceman

snickerpuss wrote:

Actually i'm 19 i just find things like that really annoying.

Dont worry, u'll get over it as you grow up and get older. I know i did.

slayer83666

I was in Aldi Grange, Cork with my sister. She helped me carry alcohol, crisps, juice to counter. Polish dude asked me for id, i gave him garda and passport and he put stuff through. This bitch, my age or younger (25) comes over and says she needs to see id from my sister too cause she 'touched' the alcohol. I thought she was having me on. Ended with my sister driving home to get id and coming back with passport. We were told in front of a shop full of staring people it was GARDA ID only. With 2 passports and my garda id we were unable to purchase. Mortified to stay the least. She was on a power trip, completely irrational saying she knew we were both of age but needed 2 garda ids for us, One word BITCH

Sherifu

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