Library Opening Hours

Right_Side

LiouVille wrote:

No offense, but after 21 years on this planet I'm really bored of people like you. You come along with "all it will take is afew quid" based on nothing at all.

Get over yourself for a start.

2 staff @ €20(?) an hour. Light and heat. Thats a pretty small variable cost if you ask me.

It would costs millions to have to all* the libraries in the college open the 4 and half extra hours (3.5 + 1 to get ready) each days you demand. Would you be willing to pay 50 euro or more to go to the library early, no you wouldn't, and even if you would, others wouldn't.

The whole idea is that just one library is opened for study only.

As for two extra staff, the staff replace the books on the shelfs, that takes a long time, it's not magic ,and needs to be done at the start of every day. Hamilton alone has at least three people doing it in the morning and two more behidn the counter shorting that mess out. How many libraries are their in the college? Now you get a picture of how many people would have to be employed.

If only one was open this wouldn't be a problem on the same scale. Employ one more replacement person for a few hours when the service desk opens... problem solved.

In a day and age where we're looking at major cuts accross nearly all faculties, providing extra services when course are being cut, seems bizarre to me.

As I said charge those who want to use it extra. I'd pay extra in my registration fee for a special card giving me longer access.

*You can't open just one library and not them all, it would be fair on students without books in that library.

The whole idea is that it's just for study. I would care if the law library was open and my books are in the Lecky.

And theres plenty of 24 hour study spaces around college.

Where is there "plenty" of decent 24 hour space?

Andrew 83

Right_Side wrote:

Non-student activities like banning Coke and Nestle etc. (please don't sidetrack the library issue into a debate on this!)

The library is a big issue for many students these things should be priorities.

Despite being mandated to the SU do little to know campaigning on the Coke and Nestle boycotts. Therefore it's purely a case of not sticking their products in the shops. How much time is this taking up? I would say none, therefore the boycotts have zero impact on the ability of the SU to deal with other issues.

Right_Side

Myth wrote:

[edit] Just to answer the point about the SU, I spent some time this year trying to sort out with College to obtain a room in the Hamilton for 24 hour study access, which I've had my eye on for two odd years. Unfortunately, Physics yoinked it in the end. I'm more of the opinion that if you give people the option of getting books into lending (which was advertised to class reps and beyond, though few took it up) and then provide a separate area which would cost less money then hiring a few people including security, it makes more financial & longterm sense then increasing the opening hours, given the lack of funds.

Fine, it doesn't matter where it is but we need more 24 hour study space... the reason I suggest the BLU complex is because it's the most obvious option.

I liked McGuirk's idea of opening up the PostGrad reading room after 9pm to undergrads.

Boston

Right_Side wrote:

Get over yourself for a start.

2 staff @ €20(?) an hour. Light and heat. Thats a pretty small variable cost if you ask me.

It's not 2 staff, its five staff @ 20euro for one hour + 3 staff at for 3 and a half for the hamilton alone. Persuming the other libraries have a similiar cost stuction, which they don't, and excluding light and heat. Thats at least a quater mill a year on the numbers I've calculated, ahve you even bothers workign out some basic numbers.

The whole idea is that just one library is opened for study only.

Thats not fair to have one open.

If only one was open this wouldn't be a problem on the same scale. Employ one more replacement person for a few hours when the service desk opens... problem solved.

Not fair to have only one libary open, libraries are paid for by all students.

As I said charge those who want to use it extra. I'd pay extra in my registration fee for a special card giving me longer access.

So you get a better education in a public university, because you can pay more. How is that problem solved. How woudl that not create a situation where some students are at a disadvantage.

The whole idea is that it's just for study. I would care if the law library was open and my books are in the Lecky.

I persume you ment wouldn't. Well you say that not, but why should the bess students have an advantage over other students, because their library was "choosen" to be the one open one?

Where is there "plenty" of decent 24 hour space?

Why would I help you now? You seemed to have got lost on your way to griffit college.

Right_Side

LiouVille, your not listening to my argument so take your hostility away with you.

Boston

Oh I heard your arguements. I'll summise, "My daddy would happily pay for me to go to the library", "But why can't they just spend a couple hundred thousand more on services, only a small portion of students would use" and "I don't like this 24 hour study area, open the ussher for me".

I've a feeling I've met you before, runing around the Pav shouting affluent at people.

Right_Side

LiouVille wrote:

Oh I heard your arguements. I'll summise, "My daddy would happily pay for me to go to the library", "But why can't they just spend a couple hundred thousand more on services, only a small portion of students would use" and "I don't like this 24 hour study area, open the ussher for me".

I've a feeling I've met you before, runing around the Pav shouting affluent at people.

I don't know what your problem is but it's bordering on personal abuse at the moment.

Nietzschean

Right_Side wrote:

I don't know what your problem is but it's bordering on personal abuse at the moment.

Eh not really.

Crash

Joe, calm. now.

Thirdfox

I'll put in my request for four way power sockets for the Berkeley again (shouldn't cost that much... I'll even buy one for them if they want!)

But whats up with the non-regulation size power outlets?

Right_Side

Nietzschean wrote:

Eh not really.

Whatever, tbh. :rolleyes:

Nietzschean

Right_Side wrote:

Whatever, tbh. :rolleyes:

Super.

Boston

Thirdfox wrote:

I'll put in my request for four way power sockets for the Berkeley again (shouldn't cost that much... I'll even buy one for them if they want!)

But whats up with the non-regulation size power outlets?

Why would four way power sockets be needed? Surely one is enough for most people? Also whats wrong with using your own if you do need them?

Neil, I am calm.

Thirdfox

Problem is, the one power socket is to power 8 desks + lights.

I know what you mean by one socket for each person but currently (under your definition) we have one socket powering the lights and no sockets for anyone...

Adding a four way socket would allow 3 laptop users on each 8 person desk... decent enough in my opinion. Hope I made the situation clearer now.

"Also whats wrong with using your own if you do need them?" - you can't - they have strange (circular) plugs that traditional plugs don't fit into.

xeduCat

(Disclaimer: I am a library employee but also a former member of college committees and therefore there is lots that I cannot say without breaching contract/confidentiality/etc. So I'm not trying to be evasive in the following comments, it's just trying to keep to the correct side of the line...)

Expansion of anything (apart from penpushing and perhaps Physics) in Trinity is virtually impossible at the moment. For the last few years, areas like the library have been asked to do more on increasingly less money and even staff. (Example: there was no deputy librarian for almost three years because the College refused to fund it, and there still is no head of systems because the money isn't there). It's only recently that the prospect of reducing opening hours has stopped being discussed - so while it's very easy from the perspective of a JF or SF student to rant and rave about how the hours should be extended, please try and realise that the world did not begin when you stepped through Front Arch! Even maintaining 10pm closing has been a major battle for some years. By the way, the library depends heavily on Book of Kells and Library Shop income to buy books and maintain existing hours - which is entirely unsustainable and pretty disgraceful for a university of this size.

Changes are of course A Good Thing. Do you really think, though, if it was a case of a few euro per session, that Dónal or myself or indeed the Librarian wouldn't have thought of this already? Get real. If it was that simple, it would have happened. In Trinityland, though, it never is. There are umpteen considerations in something seemigly straightforward. For example, while it's dead simple to type that the doors should open an hour earlier (which I agree with), there are so many knock on effects that it's not just about the hour, but the entire system and procedures that have to be thought of. Trinity's library is a huge operation - it involves multiple sites, thousands of books moving around every day, cleaners, technicians, casual staff, library assistants, programmers, security guards, cataloguers, librarians, managers, and God knows what else. It's also part of general Trinity things, such as HR policies, physical co-location with non-Library buildings, and so on.

Finally, the idea of having some sort of library premium, where you pay extra for the privilege of extended opening, is pretty arrogant - but self-styled right-siders are hardly likely to be subtle in their flaunting of wealth! Seriously, there are students in TCD for whom any extra expenditure is a source of stress and bother. I know this mightn't be significant to some - I mean, it's just like paying extra for BT cause you wouldn't be caught dead anywhere else - but it is to others. If you want to pay extra, find a college where that ethos dominates (you won't find it hard). It's a bit much appealing for the support of a students' union and then trying to have a wealth-dependent system. But oh yeah, the market will sort this out, right?

Thirdfox

What about extra power sockets in the Berkeley? My offer for part subsidising the cost remains on the table... (they might even name a power outlet after me! )

Boston

xeduCat wrote:

(Disclaimer: I am a library employee but also a former member of college committees and therefore there is lots that I cannot say without breaching contract/confidentiality/etc. So I'm not trying to be evasive in the following comments, it's just trying to keep to the correct side of the line...)

Expansion of anything (apart from penpushing and perhaps Physics) in Trinity is virtually impossible at the moment. For the last few years, areas like the library have been asked to do more on increasingly less money and even staff. (Example: there was no deputy librarian for almost three years because the College refused to fund it, and there still is no head of systems because the money isn't there). It's only recently that the prospect of reducing opening hours has stopped being discussed - so while it's very easy from the perspective of a JF or SF student to rant and rave about how the hours should be extended, please try and realise that the world did not begin when you stepped through Front Arch! Even maintaining 10pm closing has been a major battle for some years. By the way, the library depends heavily on Book of Kells and Library Shop income to buy books and maintain existing hours - which is entirely unsustainable and pretty disgraceful for a university of this size.

Changes are of course A Good Thing. Do you really think, though, if it was a case of a few euro per session, that Dónal or myself or indeed the Librarian wouldn't have thought of this already? Get real. If it was that simple, it would have happened. In Trinityland, though, it never is. There are umpteen considerations in something seemigly straightforward. For example, while it's dead simple to type that the doors should open an hour earlier (which I agree with), there are so many knock on effects that it's not just about the hour, but the entire system and procedures that have to be thought of. Trinity's library is a huge operation - it involves multiple sites, thousands of books moving around every day, cleaners, technicians, casual staff, library assistants, programmers, security guards, cataloguers, librarians, managers, and God knows what else. It's also part of general Trinity things, such as HR policies, physical co-location with non-Library buildings, and so on.

Finally, the idea of having some sort of library premium, where you pay extra for the privilege of extended opening, is pretty arrogant - but self-styled right-siders are hardly likely to be subtle in their flaunting of wealth! Seriously, there are students in TCD for whom any extra expenditure is a source of stress and bother. I know this mightn't be significant to some - I mean, it's just like paying extra for BT cause you wouldn't be caught dead anywhere else - but it is to others. If you want to pay extra, find a college where that ethos dominates (you won't find it hard). It's a bit much appealing for the support of a students' union and then trying to have a wealth-dependent system. But oh yeah, the market will sort this out, right?

Well said. Most students I know, for starts I am one, survive on less then 50 quid a week in college, any charge for services would soon be a serious problem.

The people complaining about the opening hours should spend some time elsewhere. I'm on Erasmus in Spain and the library here is crap compared to Trinity's (the univerisities are supposedly in the same league). It has no books we need for classes, literally about one dictionary per foreign language and one big room for about a hundred different degree courses. The opening times are the killer though, it closes at 8.30pm every day and doesn't open at all on weekends. I can only study in a library so this is a real pain in the ass. Trinity's library seems brilliant now, and I will really appreciate it when I return and will be able to stay until 10pm or go on the odd Sunday if I feel like it.

Boston

Abram Bald Smokehouse wrote:

The people complaining about the opening hours should spend some time elsewhere. I'm on Erasmus in Spain and the library here is crap compared to Trinity's (the univerisities are supposedly in the same league). It has no books we need for classes, literally about one dictionary per foreign language and one big room for about a hundred different degree courses. The opening times are the killer though, it closes at 8.30pm every day and doesn't open at all on weekends. I can only study in a library so this is a real pain in the ass. Trinity's library seems brilliant now, and I will really appreciate it when I return and will be able to stay until 10pm or go on the odd Sunday if I feel like it.

I'm not 100% but i don't think the libraries open on sundays anymore.

Thirdfox

Way to burst his/her bubble!

Ahhh no. They still open on Sat though right?

xeduCat

Saturdays - 9.30am to 1pm (plus 1pm-4pm 'extra opening' - i.e. not all services necessarily provided - during term)

Sundays - 11am to 5pm (last term only).

This is how it's been for the last few years, anyway.

Hermione*

What? That's the library opening hours?! I kinda presumed when I was applying to Trinity that the hours would be similar to UCD, if not quite as generous. I don't live in the type of house that's really condusive to study.

Andrew 83

Hermione* wrote:

What? That's the library opening hours?! I kinda presumed when I was applying to Trinity that the hours would be similar to UCD, if not quite as generous. I don't live in the type of house that's really condusive to study.

It's 9am to 10pm on weekdays. If its any consolation the UCD library's collection in rubbish, Trinity's is miles better. Lots more books and more copies of them.

europerson

xeduCat wrote:

Saturdays - 9.30am to 1pm (plus 1pm-4pm 'extra opening' - i.e. not all services necessarily provided - during term)

Sundays - 11am to 5pm (last term only).

This is how it's been for the last few years, anyway.

It's still that way. (Linky)

Crash

LiouVille wrote:

Why would four way power sockets be needed? Surely one is enough for most people? Also whats wrong with using your own if you do need them?

Neil, I am calm.

what i meant by that was stop making personal attacks. consider it less advice and more a warning, k?

Boston

&#231 wrote: »

what i meant by that was stop making personal attacks.

Now now neil, you know well what my personal attacks are like. This is a difference of opinion.

consider it less advice and more a warning, k?

eye eye captain birds eye.

Time Magazine

Boston, two points:

Opening e.g. the Lecky 24 hours and closing e.g. the Hamilton is still a more preferable situation than neither open. The reverse is true, I'd still have the option of studying in the Hamilton (without economics books, just notes) if it was open 24 hours. I am, at least, as well off.

Secondly, charging a price is unfortunate. But the libraries don't open as is; a price would not deter those who cannot afford it. It just means that those who can afford it.... well, can afford it. Again, it's a better situation - by definition a "least worst" situation - than what currently exists. Unless the staff work for free (hahahahahahahahahaha*) it would have to be funded by students. That's not so bad. I'd rather individual payment (on the door) than everyone having an increased registration fee.

To everyone else: bloody Trinity bureaucracy!! Furthermore, I don't think Spain, who take rests in the middle of the working day, should be considered a suitable benchmark for our libraries. And last but not least, for no apparent reason, whatever tbh.

*Hahahahahahahahahaha. Bloody unions. God's sake, I work for €7.92 an hour and 120% wages on Sunday. Library workers are on €212.87 an hour I hear.

xeduCat

Do you really, honestly, truly believe that it's a "better situation" for access to library facilities in a public university to be dependent on ability to pay?

Would you also support pay-per-use for tutorials? I mean, that's another thing that's squeezed by cut-tastic Trinity.

How about crappy old computers for all, but shiny new ones for extra fees?

xeduCat

Angry Banana wrote:

Library workers are on €212.87 an hour I hear.

Uh...no. That would be an annual salary of €400k.