Moshing = Assault???

Hellrazer

IMO I do think moshes have gotten more violent.

Back in my day if you went down you were dragged back up by the crowd--now its just fooked up.

Last gig I was at I went down and got a few kicks in the ribs for my troubles by what Karl Hungus describes as 2 "scumbags" who were just out to cause a row.
Another mate of mine got a kick in the face when he fell and lost 2 teeth.

Then again maybes its the age thing--Im not able to keep up with these young uns anymore.

super_furry

Moshes have definately got more violent. I remember being a 15/16 year old kid going to the Sunstrokes and jumping into moshes with huge hairy lads twice my age, I got knocked on my arse a lot and everytime I did, someone helped me back up. People looked after each other and there was none of this elbowing/punching crap going on.

I was rabbit punched by this one dickhead during System of a Down at Ozzfest, I confronted him and he legged it. Ten minutes later he shoved some girl into a developing pit who wanted nothing to do with it a mate and I had a quite 'word' with him and that was the last I saw of him.

Patricide

super_furry wrote:

Moshes have definately got more violent. I remember being a 15/16 year old kid going to the Sunstrokes and jumping into moshes with huge hairy lads twice my age, I got knocked on my arse a lot and everytime I did, someone helped me back up. People looked after each other and there was none of this elbowing/punching crap going on.

I was rabbit punched by this one dickhead during System of a Down at Ozzfest, I confronted him and he legged it. Ten minutes later he shoved some girl into a developing pit who wanted nothing to do with it a mate and I had a quite 'word' with him and that was the last I saw of him.

Yea, Exactly.My first pit was at ozzfest and i was only 12 or 13, I was more scared than i had ever been in my life and in my second or third pit of the day i fell straight down. I thought i was ****ed but dudes lifted me straight up.Someone should deffinatly teach people pit Etequate.

Numina

Seems worthy of mentioning this, at Iron Maiden last year, During MM's set, there was a 15/16 years "goth" girl, she was one of the people at who made up the circle that makes the pit, a non-participant. she was standing there, and anybody in the pit who came in close enough contact, she would punch them, she was just going mental laying it into people, and don't say she was pissed because people were ju,ping into her, because this girl was just laying it into people for no reason.

Blowfish

I really hate the people that just shove random people into the pit. I'm quite often in the pit, but it's happened to me where I stop for a minute at the edge and some idiot shoves me back in again. Once when that happened though, I just turned around and shoulder charged the guy. Needless to say, he moved away from the pit after that.

Matthewthebig

Some díck in the pit at Dragonforce started doing cartwheels through the pit. He was just a twat out to cause damage to anyone who came near.

Mushy

How can people not stop to pick others up after falling? Thats insane! Id just feel really guilty if i walked past someone who was down on the ground. And as for punching and elbowing people...thats ridiculous. just run around into people using the shoulder at most. then its enjoyable for everyone. not that we can stop people usin elbows or fist, but a bit of common sense should come into it

It wasn't me!

Matthewthebig wrote:

Some díck in the pit at Dragonforce started doing cartwheels through the pit. He was just a twat out to cause damage to anyone who came near.

Ah, the satisfying crunch or high-speed elbow and twat-nose...

crazy angel

usually doesnt help when the moshers are clad in studded belts, spiky wristbands, pint glasses and the likes! god, some of the mohawks could take an eye out!!

senordingdong

I blame Pantera.

mp3guy

http://www.coalitionagainsthardcoredancing.com/

nosmo

I'm not as pessimistic about pits these days as some, but I will admit things are getting pretty stupid. I'm not saying anything like "damn emo kids", but a lot of the younger attendees of gigs need to learn the proper etiquette for these things.
For one, if there's no pit at the gig, you can be the one to start it, but that doesn't mean "start hitting people at the back of the crowd". Anyone who was at Cryptopsy knows what I'm talking about, glad to see this particular individual got his comeuppance.
There's no set rule about what you do in a pit, but when you're looking to punch someone without getting aggro beforehand, you're being a ****wit.
Hell, most of this is personal taste I guess, but I'll continue. I can't ****ing stand people who grab someone in the pit and launch them into other people who clearly don't want anything to do with the gig, especially if people have their backs turned, that's particularly unpleasant.
And above all, the most frequently mentioned factor in moshing: if they go down, pick them up. It doesn't matter who you were going after, making sure other people are able to enjoy things the same way you are is the most important thing

As for comments about the dangers of ye olde Carcass pits, watching the grindcrusher live show I can see.... hmm.. One person headbanging with little other movement from the crowd. How did you ever survive?

senordingdong

nosmo wrote:

a lot of the younger attendees of gigs need to learn the proper etiquette for these things.

It's possible the same was said about you and yoiur mates at the time.

It wasn't me!

Possible, but unlikely.

Ph3n0m

senordingdong wrote:

It's possible the same was said about you and yoiur mates at the time.

extremely unlikely - simply because the amount of injuries that I have personally witnessed at gigs past and present - well lets say the present is seriously outweighing the past at the moment - and thats not just a generalisation - just gigs I have been to.

As for us learning proper etiquette - er most of us older crowd started the whole toxic waltz

Nevyn

There is a big difference between moshing/bouncing moving to the same rythms of those arround you becoming one with the crowd, a mass of heaving bodies and enjoying the push and pull of it all;
and the blatant utter disreguard for people and going into the pit to start a punch up and agressivly batter against people.

I have been in pits and ended up clocking people when head banging and you check the other person is ok and say sorry people were polite and there for the experience of it and not out to get people.

I have a wrenched neck that plays up from time to time from all the pit action over the years but I would not get into the pit these days, not to do with being older but that I would not have the tolerance for the carry on these days.

Attitude towards females in the pit has gotten worse as well, just cos you are in there does not give guys the right to grope you up.
Like I said I steer clear becuase I would lose it and laying out an idtiot and dealing with what can follow after is not worth ruining a gig no matter who much I would like to be in the pit.

nosmo

senordingdong wrote:

It's possible the same was said about you and yoiur mates at the time.

Heh, I tried to refrain from using age-reliant comments, but I had to say something along the lines. Just because someone saw something in a Trivium video (yes, I am insulting them, I'm not beating around the bush) doesn't mean it's OK in real life. I'm only 19 as it is, but I've seen enough to know how things can work sustainably

LightofDarkness

Agreed, that ****er at Cryptopsy got his alright. No one would mosh with me for Grave though...

But still,I don't want to sound like some typical metal elitist or anything but it's always the same culprits : emo kids/tough guy hXc fans out to prove how awesome they are at punching/kicking air and occasionally faces. I've been round housed, that's right, these kids think that re-enacting power rangers whilst wearing their school bag is mosh pit etiquette and shows their inner struggle/despair, I've been head butted many a time (usually an accident but the skin head variety usually snake away laughing, at least until me and my friends "have words" after the gig :mad: )

But alot of these kids have an air of arrogance sometimes when they do it too. Like they're somehow above us mere pit goers who are in it for fun, like it's somehow a serious struggle that determines the alpha male whose final crowning achievement is being tossed out violently by security. It's like any attempt to educate results in a prick-ish retort. Any retaliation results in WTFs all round too.

Ph3n0m

What worries me is why this idiots also think its cool to strip to the waist - sounds a bit strange (never felt the need to strip in the pit myself) - touching sweaty flesh, sliding up and down....er I think I better go watch some pr0n

senordingdong

Well I think it's worth noting that metal music has gotten alot more aggressive too.

Motley Crue

killswitch wrote:

I heard a rumour about this. Apparrently you can now be arrested for moshing as it is considered physical assault. Anyone know if this is true?

Wasnt there a girl killed in the Moshpit at a Smashing Pumpkins concert a few years back in the Point? Im sure that the Moshpit (which is forbidden, read the back of your tickets) is as illegal as assault, so they simply fall in the same bracket. Its just that very few sweaty topless men at Slayer concerts will sue the guy beside them for assualt afterwards

Although my mate was beaten up outside the Ambassador following a KSE/Chimaira/Shadows Fall gig in June 2004 because he hit someones younger brother too hard and they took it extremely personally despite his attempts to apologise

Karl Hungus

LightofDarkness wrote:

Agreed, that ****er at Cryptopsy got his alright.

What's the story with that? I wasn't there.

It wasn't me!

Some twat, locked off his face, just started jumping and swinging and running into people. Where I was was probably about halfway back in the TBMC and he was behind us, where it wasn't as packed. People had to "calm" him...

It wasn't me!

Motley Crue wrote:

Wasnt there a girl killed in the Moshpit at a Smashing Pumpkins concert a few years back in the Point? Im sure that the Moshpit (which is forbidden, read the back of your tickets) is as illegal as assault, so they simply fall in the same bracket. Its just that very few sweaty topless men at Slayer concerts will sue the guy beside them for assualt afterwards

Although my mate was beaten up outside the Ambassador following a KSE/Chimaira/Shadows Fall gig in June 2004 because he hit someones younger brother too hard and they took it extremely personally despite his attempts to apologise

She died because they over-packed the venue and she got crushed against the barrier. Wasn't to do with moshing, and I would hardly expect much aggression at a Pumpkins show, frankly. The pit isn't banned for a lot of shows, and is very much encouraged at metal shows. The fact is, it's Ticketmaster tickets that have that printed on it. If moshpits are so illegal, why is there a chunk of larger venues sectioned off for them?

senordingdong: Whether it's gotten more aggressive or not is irrelevant. The fact is, the ****e that people are doing in pits is stupid and ignorant. When you go to gigs, are you hoping some sweaty, topless skinhead is going to put his boot through your face? I sincerely doubt it, it's just not the done thing.

senordingdong

It wasn't me! wrote:

She died because they over-packed the venue and she got crushed against the barrier. Wasn't to do with moshing, and I would hardly expect much aggression at a Pumpkins show, frankly. The pit isn't banned for a lot of shows, and is very much encouraged at metal shows. The fact is, it's Ticketmaster tickets that have that printed on it. If moshpits are so illegal, why is there a chunk of larger venues sectioned off for them?

senordingdong: Whether it's gotten more aggressive or not is irrelevant. The fact is, the ****e that people are doing in pits is stupid and ignorant. When you go to gigs, are you hoping some sweaty, topless skinhead is going to put his boot through your face? I sincerely doubt it, it's just not the done thing.

I think it's very relevant. With more aggressive bands playing more aggressive songs, a more aggressive atmosphere is created.
Ofcourse the people who do it are stupid and ignorant but I'm just exploring why it's common nowadays whereas it wasn't so long ago.

Also, I believe the whole moshine/crowd surfing thing became illeagal as a result of that girl being crushed. In accordance to the story that she apparently hit the deck and the yuppies around her (unfamiliar with pit conduct) didn't help her up. So yeah...that's my contribution to the Pumpkins myth scandal.

lodgepole

It wasn't me! wrote:

She died because they over-packed the venue and she got crushed against the barrier. Wasn't to do with moshing, and I would hardly expect much aggression at a Pumpkins show, frankly. The pit isn't banned for a lot of shows, and is very much encouraged at metal shows. The fact is, it's Ticketmaster tickets that have that printed on it. If moshpits are so illegal, why is there a chunk of larger venues sectioned off for them?

The pit area of a venue isn't there as a mosh pit, it's there to seperate the crowd.

Moshing in itself isn't assault. But it lends itself very well to assault because of the agressive nature of it. Assault can, and does, take place in mosh pits.

gline

Lodgepole wrote:

The pit area of a venue isn't there as a mosh pit, it's there to seperate the crowd.

.

yeh to seperate the crowd that want to mosh and the crowd that dont

also I thought the pumpkins incident was due to crushing and not moshing

Doctor J

senordingdong wrote:

With more aggressive bands playing more aggressive songs, a more aggressive atmosphere is created.
Ofcourse the people who do it are stupid and ignorant but I'm just exploring why it's common nowadays whereas it wasn't so long ago.

It's no more agressive than it was, no way. ***Puts on old man hat again*** Back in the day gigs were pretty rare, you'd get maybe ten (international) gigs in a year if you were really lucky. When bands came over, it was an event, a real special occasion. I have a bootleg from the Megadeth gig here from 88 (from the guy who used to sell tapes on O'Connell bridge) and the crowd reaction (and the intesnity of the crowd) is something else. There's an enthusiasm towards the music that just doesn't exist (across the full crowd) in gigs these days, where people seem overindulged with bands gigging. The music sounds more aggressive now but I don't really think it is at all. Sure, it's darker, faster, heavier, but people have acclimatised to the original music, Ozzy is a celebrity now, Metal isn't as new and exciting as it used to be. You can only judge how aggressive something is by what it shares it's time with. When Slayer played Raining Blood here for the first time... let me tell you... that was agressive

Besides, every youth generation likes to think they take it further than the generation before them and tbh, nobody has really had the raw agression that the first wave of hardcore punk had IMO. The difference as I see it (over almost 20 years of seeing and participating in moshes) is that a lot of people these days haven't a ****ing clue how to behave at gigs and this can be misconstrued as aggression when it's really just ignorance. They seem to think they're supposed to prove how hard they are to their little buddies and think that flailing elbows are cool. I saw two twats at one gig charging from a distance up at each other so they bounce off each other. What's that about? Moshing started off as dancing, a release of energy to the music being played, albeit an aggressive one. The moshing at the Slayer/Nuclear Assault gig was scary. The moshing at the D.R.I. gig was very, very ****ing hard. However, there was a form of etiqutte involved. It wasn't about twats out to lay a sneaky elbow or knee into someone and then brag to their little buddies about it, it was about getting into the music together. Yes, there were a few assholes who were acting the goat but on a whole there was more of a, for want to a better term, community spirit. There was diving, lots of it. When Onslaught played here they brought their own security staff, made up of people who liked and understod Metal music, so people could mosh and dive safely. OK, so I'm biased, but I have seen this kind of thing for almost 20 years, I'm bound to say you young 'uns don't know you're born but in my honest opinion, it was the early 80's punks who were the most aggressive at gigs, not the Metallers at all

Here's something I just found out: you know that Safety Dance tune from the 80's, well it was written in response to a Canadian law which had been passed banning moshing. How about that?

Ph3n0m

Doctor J wrote:

Here's something I just found out: you know that Safety Dance tune from the 80's, well it was written in response to a Canadian law which had been passed banning moshing. How about that?

Someone was watching the top 50 one hit wonders last night

Doctor J

I sure was