Polish ambassador points to Ireland's road signposting dyslexia

Pfungstadter

murphaph wrote:

You should really check your facts before spouting a load of rubbish.

"Stop trying to hit me and hit me"

According to that then about a third of the place names could be in Irish only:p cos it's the irish font that's used. That's going to annoy you now.

nordydan

Getting rid of irish language on signposts would attract little popular support.
The fact that the majority of people do not speak it every day does not mean that they do not appreciate the recognition that the language rightfully gets by seeing it on a daily basis. Campigning to include english in the gaeltacht in a brown tourist format mat be of more benefit.

Lets hope this €60 million will allow a general improvement to the design of the road system.

Perhaps they should rename the new M50 junctions after the hunger strikers eg, the M1/M50 belfast road could be the Joe McDonnell interchange, N2/M50 could be the Michael Devine (Free Derry) interchange etc. A nice touch would be to have the Wolfe Tones blaring on a masive speaker system all along the new road. This I am sure we could all agree on and maybe settle this argument once and for all.

murphaph

Pfungstadter wrote:

@ murphaph

your the one getting political

I don't think soooooo. I'm simply confining my points to sign clarity and so on. Yo brought the constitution into this remember

Pfungstadter wrote:

Irish is first language,
english second

As metrobest pointed out, the constitution has contained some wholly innapropriate things in it. It is not something to hold up and live your life by.

Pfungstadter wrote:

In switzerland, (how did I ignore it, you seem to be having a bi-polar conversation between your posts). All langages are decided in the Cantons.

And they are sensible about it and sign in the local first language only.

Pfungstadter wrote:

Stop being a muppet and get over it.

Post reported. You've called me and metrobest muppets now, which may have been acceptable in whatever forum you posted in before but not here where we debate without childish name calling. Thank you

Pfungstadter wrote:

It's a place name, nothing more nothing less.

Indeed, so signing it in the local language only is NO BIG DEAL unless you happen to be a gaeilgoir of course!

Pfungstadter

oh no,:eek: :eek: :eek:

I don't care what you do who how much of a member you are.

As said before
It wouldn't have much popular support

until you are ruler of the ireland or what ever it's not gonna change.

murphaph

Pfungstadter wrote:

oh no,:eek: :eek: :eek:

I don't care what you do who how much of a member you are.

:rolleyes: Honestly, what age are you? 15, 16?

Pfungstadter wrote:

As said before
It wouldn't have much popular support

And you speak for the peoples of the Engish-speaking parts of Ireland now? I'm debating this purely on signage clarity. Not how popular it may or may not be (I feel that the benefits would be so obvious to the majority language speakers that it'd be more popular than you think). Other multi-lingual nations (with proper transport research facilities, unlike us!) have decided that adding languages to signage should be a last resort (and confined to the areas where the minority language is spoken!) and mono-lingual signage prevails right across Europe even in multi-lingual nations. Our signage has always been more of a political statement since the days of DeValera, often at the expense of user-friendliness.

Pfungstadter wrote:

until you are ruler of the ireland or what ever it's not gonna change.

I'd settle for Minister of Transport

Victor

Pfungstadter wrote:

Stop being a muppet and get over it.

I detect much anger young Skywalker.

Banned for a week.

nordydan

I dont wish to raise the stakes here but if anyone tries and removes irish from the road signs, I wil personally see that they and their family suffer.

nordydan

Victor wrote:

I detect much anger young Skywalker.

Banned for a week.

Right thats it. I am going on hunger strike. Who's with me?

NavanJunction1

nordydan wrote:

I wil personally see that they and their family suffer.

Cop on.

nordydan

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Cop on.

In the context of this thread, it was obviously tongue in cheek my man.

Calina

Hmm.

Having looked at this discussion since I was last in here, I'm unnerved to see how irrational it has got. Ultimately it has gone far away from road safety signs - which cover a multitude and not just the directional signs into a cultural battle. It leaves aside issues surrounding poor maintenance; budget for road painting. The language of the directional signs is actually - despite it all - not the biggest problem with have with road signage. Most people wind up adapting to what's available wherever they are.

I don't - as it happens - mind Irish on the signposts, but, following this thread on Friday, I paid special attention to them and I realise that it's because I don't even see it most of the time. Based on studies done in the area of subtitling where people learn not to see stuff they don't need to see, this doesn't hugely surprise me.

What matters is that what we do have is consistent. Currently it's not always consistent and above all, things like roadmarkings are not always very clear. In rain, in particular, centre line markings can be impossible to see. Many signposts are hidden behind hedgerows.

We could, perhaps, address this, before arguing over any modifications to the system. I'd also add - given where these thread came from - that although the Polish ambassador may have his own views on our signposting, I'd appreciate his views on Polish drivers not fully adhering to local regulations. I do wonder if his comments were a reaction to comments about an increasing number of foreigners falling victim to accidents on Irish roads, and, in the best tradition, looking for a fallguy for the causes of those accidents. The driver is, on occasion, still responsible for them, no matter what his or her nationality.

Dun

I'm sorry but I have to laugh at anybody that says that having bilingual signs clutters them. Should've gone to Specsavers I say.


As for reading signs driving at 120kmh, I don't know about everybody else, but I don't think I'd be doing that speed coming up to an area that I didn't know. Typically if I need to see a sign, I'll keep myself in a position where I don't have to pass it at the speed of sound when I see it coming up.

MrPudding

I was driving to Kildare yesterday down the N / M 7. There was not a single mention of Kildare on any signs I saw until we were 11kms out. What is the story there?

MrP

murphaph

Dun wrote:

I'm sorry but I have to laugh at anybody that says that having bilingual signs clutters them. Should've gone to Specsavers I say.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion of course, but I, and most multilingual countries in Europe with transport research institutions would tend to disagree with you. Ireland has no such research facilities so our signage cannot claim to derive from any research other than UK stuff which we've 'bodged' to fit.

Compare....

with....


I know which ones I find easier to read and that's with two dodgy typefaces (the fonts are OK but have been butchered so that only the capital letters appear in English placenames and only an italicised version appears in the Irish placenames. If the signs were mono-lingual we could have stuck with regular mixed case for all destinations like the (technically incorrect) Irish language text in this sign;

Dun wrote:

As for reading signs driving at 120kmh, I don't know about everybody else, but I don't think I'd be doing that speed coming up to an area that I didn't know. Typically if I need to see a sign, I'll keep myself in a position where I don't have to pass it at the speed of sound when I see it coming up.

So you essentially slow down on stretches of motorway you are unfamiliar with in the hope of making it easier to find your exit? Don't you realise that defeats the purpose of high speed inter-urban roads? If you need to see a sign you don't know where it's going to be! That's the whole point of directional signage!

murphaph

MrPudding wrote:

I was driving to Kildare yesterday down the N / M 7. There was not a single mention of Kildare on any signs I saw until we were 11kms out. What is the story there?

MrP

The practice in the RoI involves signing a terminal city on all N routes so Limerick will appear on all route confirmatory signs. This would differ from UK practice which would sign something like "the midwest" and "the south" on the N7 heading out of Dublin with some local destinations possibly signed. You would not see a sign for Limerick until much closer to that city. It's sort of backwards from the way we do it here. I prefer our way on this issue.

Kildare, when all's said and done is a small town and it would be unreasonable to sign it from say, Dublin. 11kms actually sounds about right to me.

NavanJunction1

murphaph wrote:

Compare....

God, that is terrible. Reminds me of Scotland, and American takes on Irish culture like Darby O'Gill and the little people.

One sign is meaningless, the other comprehensible.

Unfortunately, it's the anglicised gibberish one that is meaningless - a hyphenetic take of Gaelic.. That just brings it all home!

The Anglicised versions really make no sense at all - if you have the names only in English on signs such as in the above examples, people will really think they are in the land of the Fairies when they visit from other countries..

What do they call each other in Harry Potter.. Muggles? Muggles from Rosanallis. I can see it now.

Most names on this island make no sense when divorced from their original versions.

Nothing to do with language, politics etc - it's just a fact.. And lets face it, the country would be a poorer place without the Gaelic versions.

Hagar

NavanJunction1 wrote:

lets face it, the country would be a poorer place without the Gaelic versions.

Well said.

Conar

NavanJunction1 wrote:

The Anglicised versions really make no sense at all - if you have the names only in English on signs such as in the above examples, people will really think they are in the land of the Fairies when they visit from other countries..

What do they call each other in Harry Potter.. Muggles? Muggles from Rosanallis. I can see it now.

Most names on this island make no sense when divorced from their original versions.

I don't really understand your point on this!
Since when have place names made sense?
I don't think foreigners will think anything at all when they see our town names, as I've never heard anyone discussing the meaning or relevance of a town/city name anywhere in the world. At least the anglicised names are pronounceable; I'd hate to hear the poor tourists looking for directions if we used the Irish names!

NavanJunction1

Conar wrote:

At least the anglicised names are pronounceable

Compared to the original versions? I'm not sure about that. Many of the Anglicised versions are gibberish.

By the way, what makes you think that English is easier to read for Poles etc than Gaelic, or that Gaelic is harder?

If you take German pronunciation, I'd say that is much closer to Gaelic than English.

English ain't any easier than other languages. It isn't a superior language in any way to any other.

I'm not in favour of removing English from signs in non-Gaeltacht areas.

It's fine the way it is, if only our signage was better.

Conar wrote:

Since when have place names made sense?

Most Gaelic place names do actually have a meaning. That you didn't know that shows that in relying on the English version you are missing out.

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Compared to the original versions? I'm not sure about that. Many of the Anglicised versions are gibberish.

Not to the people that live in all those towns. I know people from 2 of hem anyway and they pronounce them as is written, gibberish or not. They do not pronounce the Irish version. That's just the way it is, we're a predominantly English speakig land.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

By the way, what makes you think that English is easier to read for Poles etc than Gaelic, or that Gaelic is harder?

It's easier because any pole that comes here will have at least learned some English beforehand. Apart from poles we also have many other nationalities visiting here and they will expect to communicate in English, but the main reason is that signs such as the one pictured are in nglish speaking parts of Ireland and as such, IMO, shoul be mono-lingual English only (same treatment as Gaeltacht signage).

NavanJunction1 wrote:

If you take German pronunciation, I'd say that is much closer to Gaelic than English.

Drifting off topic here, but again to reiterate, the main reason for mono-lingual signage in places that ovewhelmingly speak one language as their first language is sign clarity for the natives, us!

NavanJunction1 wrote:

English ain't any easier than other languages. It isn't a superior language in any way to any other.

Nobody is claiming it is, but of course it is superior to many languages. It has far more words than say, German. This imcreases it's descriptive power somewhat and allows many more levels of subtlety to be introduced. It has all these words because it assimilated them from a multitude of other languages, it is the ultimate bastard language and is very powerful because of it. A good example would be in the world of intellectual property-most patents worldwide are translated to English so that they can more accurately (and vaguely too!) cover the claims of the item which is to be protected. This is no accident. Anyway, OT I know.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Most Gaelic place names do actually have a meaning. That you didn't know that shows that in relying on the English version you are missing out.

It might have a meaning to an Irish speaker, much like a town like Grimsby means something to do with a farmyard in Norse or Anglo-Saxon (can't remember which but a by at the end of an English placeame means farm) but it only means it in a historical context and unless you're up n your anglo-saxon or Norse then you're unlikely to know/care. It's no different for the majority language speakers on this island ad of course nobody is saying that Irish placenames should be removed from the welcomr to x sign as you enter a town, so you'll still get to read it and ponder it if the fancy takes you!

NavanJunction1

murphaph wrote:

It's easier because any pole that comes here will have at least learned some English beforehand.

you gotta be kidding..! Didn't you see the piece in Herald Polska where the Polish journalist discovered that only a handful of the hundreds of Poles at the soup kitchen the Monks set up in Dublin city centre speak any English?

Many, many of the Poles here in Ireland have no English, or the very minimal. As a matter of interest, i know Gaelic speaking Poles, Russians, Spaniards, Chinese and Americans through the Gaeltachts. A mimority yes, but the language is also relevant to them.

I think the division on this subject won't be reconciled - but the point is that some people like the signs and some don't. Some use the Gaelic, some don't. But they are used, but obviously not by those that don't...

We'll be debating this until the cows come home, and we'll never agree on this topic...

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

you gotta be kidding..! Didn't you see the piece in Herald Polska where the Polish journalist discovered that only a handful of the hundreds of Poles at the soup kitchen the Monks set up in Dublin city centre speak any English?

Many, many of the Poles here in Ireland have no English, or the very minimal. As a matter of interest, i know Gaelic speaking Poles, Russians, Spaniards, Chinese and Americans through the Gaeltachts. A mimority yes, but the language is also relevant to them.

The Herald? Hardly reliable journalism there! Anyway, I work with poles and they all speak excellent english but that's not really the point. This thread is about the signage most appropriate to the majority first language speakers in the majority of this land, and that's English of course.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

I think the division on this subject won't be reconciled - but the point is that some people like the signs and some don't. Some use the Gaelic, some don't. But they are used, but obviously not by those that don't...

I don't. So would you be ok with bilingual signage in the Gaeltacht for me and the majority of people like me or are you just in favour of bilingual signage outside the Gaeltacht? I'm not sure of your position on that.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

We'll be debating this until the cows come home, and we'll never agree on this topic...

I suppose we're coming at it from different angles. To you it is more of a heritage/culture issue. To me it's more of a signage/transportation/safety engineering issue. I like clarity and simplicity in signage, as do the most respected nations who have developed signage through detailed research. Our directional signage came about through no such research of our own. We basically copied the UK's Guildford Rules and then modified (buthchered) them to fit this country's obsession with giving a little spoken language pride of place, and in the process it lost much of it's advantages (Guildford Rules signage is acknowledged as being amongst the best, if not the best directional signage in the world) by eliminating the mixed case transport heavy series signage in favour of an 'all-capitals' version (which the UK got rid of because it is harder to read) for English and a horrible italicised (never appeared in the UK material, we just made it up without any research into it's legibility at speed) version for Irish. This is what bothers me, it was all just thrown together without proper research.

NavanJunction1

murphaph wrote:

To you it is more of a heritage/culture issue.

Correct. And also a signage issue. We need better signage. Attack the sign-post, not the language on it.

murphaph wrote:

To me it's more of a signage/transportation/safety engineering issue. I like clarity and simplicity in signage, as do the most respected nations who have developed signage through detailed research.

I don't see how it is a safety issue - has there ever been an accident caused by having Gaelic on a sign? And if there has, do we have comparable figures for accidents caused by English?! More likely the lack of and quality of the signage is the problem. It doesn't inhibit transportation. And it's only a signage issue if you think the language is irrelevant. I too like clarity and simplicity in signage.

murphaph wrote:

this country's obsession with giving a little spoken language pride of place

Fair play to the country. And long may it last!

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Correct. And also a signage issue. We need better signage. Attack the sign-post, not the language on it.

Then language(s) on it are a major component in the signface design! They cannot be divorced from each other as you would suggest!

NavanJunction1 wrote:

I don't see how it is a safety issue - has there ever been an accident caused by having Gaelic on a sign?

Unknown. The Gardai have only recently started any sort of serious accident investiation. I would be very surprised if poor sign clarity had not led to an accident in the past.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

And if there has, do we have comparable figures for accidents caused by English?!

That's not the debate at hand. The debate is not Irish -v- English. It's monolingual -v- bilingual. I'm not blaming the Irish language on accidents. I'm blaming poor sign clarity caused (in part) by squeezing two languages onto signage that only needs one for the sign to function perfectly well.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

More likely the lack of and quality of the signage is the problem. It doesn't inhibit transportation. And it's only a signage issue if you think the language is irrelevant.

The language is irrelevant in the non-Gaeltacht areas in so far as an overwhelming majority of people speak English and everyone would perfectly understand a sign in one language only, so it is purely a signage issue.

I'd still be interested to hear your position on the policy of mono-lingual signage in Gaeltacht areas. Do you support this or would you prefer bilingual signage in these places?

GreeBo

My problem with the bilingual signs is that they are two fricken' small.
If you want to say two thing on a sign, make it twice as big!
The fact that both names on the sign are the same place should not mean that they can both be half size.

Oh and one more thing, move the fricken' thing back from the motorway exit, so I can read it before I am going past it.:mad: