NCAD move

pretty*monster

Grimes wrote:

How does this affect you day to day? Just out of interested (so help me god if you say modularisation!;) )

*feels guilty about being off topic*

Ok... I can, and will, point out a few of the day to day issues. But the problem I have isn't a day to day one it's...about how much value we as a society, country whatever, place on knowledge. I don't think we value it nearly enough, to our detriment, because our capacity for higher levels of thinking is what separates us from animals. These days it seems more and more like it's just our capacity for shopping that warrants celebration.
It's hard to articulate, I'll try later though

Ok, day to day.

Less power vested in schools.
Means I can no longer always go to my school and get them to sort something out for me (time table, late application for MA, herrendusly late essay w.out a sick note, whatever). I can't go to the head of my dept and ask him how I'll be registering for my courses next year.
It means that the people who students find easy to contact don't have the answers and don't have the power to help them.
We've all heard of people being ping pong balled from admin to their dept and back.
It's stressful, it's frustrating, and it undermines a certain level of trust a student should be able to have in her/his school.


There's greater administrative presure on lecturers.
In philosophy (and presumably other shools) lecturers used to give tutorials. The burden of paper work they had to was increased and so only third years got tutorials from lectuers. Now that's gone too. Only one lecturer in the school of philosophy has the time to give tutorials any more. The lecturers I spoke to about said that they missed giving tutorials but they just didn't have to anymore.
I assume I don't have to spell out why a tutorial from a lecturer is more benifical than one from an MA student, but I will if you like.



The issue of staff moral is an issue that completely effects students.
Firstly if you're lecturers in a pissy mood the whole time because s/he can't get promoated without more research under her/his belt, but he has no time to research because of additional burdens placed on him/her by admin (just one of many reasons that moral is currently low) s/he is going to be less pleasent in a lecture/when you go to him/her for help/whatever.

But more importantly, if applications for early retirement are increasing (and they are) who's leaving. The most experienced. D'oh.
On top of that, if staff are bailing out it's the most talented who'll have the easiest time finding a position else where.

Riamfada

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

Firstly,your obviously dont have a clue.....

One of the reasons why we dont want to move is
A. Our campus is fine,the only prob is we have to rent some of out equipment
B.Thomas Street has everything we need plus some.
C.They have just annouced that they are going to turn the Temple bar/Christchuch area into into the cultural center of Dublin!

And not one person out there went to insult the teachers or students,they went out on the rafts to raise awareness and to get some media attention...

But as you are in the biggest facility in UCD you knew all that right!?

The reason they want us to move is
A.They want the money for the land(we wont see a penny)
B.To merge our fine art department with yours(as well have the largest library in the country,of art/designs books, and some of the best tutors)
C.In the end it will not benifit us really in any way,will benifit the odd department in UCD and really take NCAD identity away...
The problem is not with UCD or the name,it is that NCAD is a unique,small college,with some of the brightest young artists/designers who all associate with each other.
To move the people out the the jungle that is UCD,the association between artists would be lost...

I really do hope that the majoity of UCD students undertstand what we are trying to do here and will support us,for any of you that have ever been in NCAD for any of our avents ,I say you all ready understand.

ITs not YOUR campus and YOUR college!! Its their property and their business and there were other protests then the rafts in which people were insulted which left a bad taste in the mouths of many ucd students.

panda100

Grimes wrote:

ITs not YOUR campus and YOUR college!! Its their property and their business and there were other protests then the rafts in which people were insulted which left a bad taste in the mouths of many ucd students.

concur.....also the only reason I can see from that post to support NCAD not moving to UCD is that a select bunch of artistes will have to mix with common arts,science, buissness etc students..people not at all on their intellectual artistic wave length:rolleyes: Thats what your basically saying here??

As for temple bar becoming the cultural epicentre of Ireland,il believe that when I see it........

pretty*monster

panda100 wrote:

Prettymonster,Im sure UCD do not treat your degree as worthless infact I think its quite the opposite. You have the biggest building,closest to the library with the most books,teachers ,photocopiers,services etc then any of the other schools...art students have it sweet imo.Your degree is treated like any other degree so I dont know where your getting this 'worthless' idea from.

This isn't a paranoid little fantasy I'm having Panda.
Alotment of facilities is irelevant to my point (and arts students make up about 25% of the student body, I'd be pretty freaked if we didn't have the most stuff).

arbeitsscheuer

Grimes wrote:

ITs not YOUR campus and YOUR college!! Its their property and their business and there were other protests then the rafts in which people were insulted which left a bad taste in the mouths of many ucd students.

What relevance can that possibly have?!? :rolleyes:
The debate has nothing to do with UCD students - it has to do with the NCAD administration and their students, and the UCD administration.

If anything, if you feel so "insulted" (boo-f**king-hoo) by their protests, you should be AGAINST them moving into Belfield, cos guess what, you'll be seein a lot more of em if they do.

NCAD is also older than UCD, and has over 750 full-time students and 800 students taking night-classes. Their library has over 70,000 books. They opened a new wing in 1998 - the School of Design For Industry. In short, their facilities are fine and they do not need to move out to Belfield, nor do the people who matter want to.

panda100

pretty*monster wrote:

This isn't a paranoid little fantasy I'm having Panda.
Alotment of facilities is irelevant to my point (and arts students make up about 25% of the student body, I'd be pretty freaked if we didn't have the most stuff).

so why do you think UCD treat your degree as worthless then??

pretty*monster

for the reason's I've already gone into in detail

Finner

My gosh I posted this just this morning and look at how many posts there are - have you no study to be doing (I really do so everyone needs to stop distracting me!)

I agree with Tintinr35, they'll have a great new campus and state of the art facilities if they move to UCD or any other location for that matter. Plus at UCD they'd have the best of both worlds. The students would have the advantages of a big university while staying seperate and isolated they could still get the advantages of being in a small university.

I don't know why they're so attached to Thomas Street anyway, the college has only been there since 1980 and according to the article I read in the Irish Times yesterday that was written by the Director of the NCAD back then their first choice was a move out to Donnybrook.

They would have been the NCOD after all (National College of Ort and Design)

panda100

pretty*monster wrote:

for the reason's I've already gone into in detail

uhh that applys across the whole college...it is not a hugh brady out to get art students initative......that is just your paranoia Im afraid..:eek:

schmooschmoo

We are certainly not protesting against the image of UCD and its reputation. The reputation of the college is not under question at all and is nothing to do with our protests. Our argument is over the importance of our location to our work.

I believe some people give money far too much precedence in decisions. Of course it should always be a priority, but not THE priority. I've been trying to avoid classing NCAD or art colleges seperate to other colleges but I think it's justified in the argument I'm about to make. The location of art students is pivotal to their work. You simply cannot move them from room A to room B and expect the same work. This is true for any student but particularly so when your study is art and your basis for your study is the world around you. Can anybody fail to see to see the importance of location? We are not arguing that UCD is a hole or makes us sick at the sight of it, we are arguing that Thomas St. is ideal for our needs and we don't want that changed. I think too many people are thinking in terms of their own lecture halls and labs, etc. rather than art students who spend as much of their day walking about the city centre as part of their study aswell as being inspired by the charms of their campus that sits on a former distillery and the entire liberties area. This isn't mentioning how accessible IMMA is to us and all the local trades we use daily which would be irreplaceable in belfield (I can't see poundworld arriving in UCD to be honest).
... which brings me back to the money argument. Yes, keep things as financially boyant as possible, but if the end result leads in a creative dead end, no money in the world can fix that.

We firmly believe that the move is not going to happen and so the protests are going to continue until that is decided or a more satisfactory solution is proposed. So in that case, no, we are not going to make the transition as smooth as possible. We are both opposing the move and demanding the government give us adequate funding to address the concerns of our current campus and prevent a move to the suburbs. We have been severely underfunded for the status we have in relation to other colleges. That is the solution we are working on reaching and we don't believe it's impossible.

As for the argument of past moves being protested against and finding the move suited them after it happened - of course. Who can say whether any move will be a success or failure until after it has happened? Everybody involved in this proposal - including our director who is most open to it - is simply weighing up the pros and cons and using their belief and instints to form a decision. Just as some moves have been a success (UCD), many have been a horrible failure. I'll refer you to Katharine Crouan's article in the March 9th edition of the Irish Times to look at such a case. Interestingly, it's as close a camparison to NCAD's current situation as I've seen and relates to the Winchester School of Art's relocation to a larger campus. Also, the writer was in line to become current director of NCAD until complications arrose so she would be quite up to date on the matter.

Our director has stated on several occasions that we have been 'misinterpretting the move as a done deal' and protesting at nothing as no decision has been made. For somebody with his intelligence, I don't know why he keeps saying this and feel he is the one who has misinterpretted things. We are not protesting at a decision that's been made, we are protesting to prevent a possible decision and have been from the beginning.

The huge majority of our college, both students and staff, believe our director, Colm O'Brien's, interests lie entirely elsewhere to our own - he was never a practising artist. We don't believe he's trying to ruin the college at all but believe he's in danger of making a foolish mistake.

pretty*monster

I never said anyone was 'out to get arts.'

Changes in how we veiw learning and learning have hit arts hardest because asts subjects are not econimically useful in ways as obvious as commerce, law, med, etc.

This is another one I could write a thesis on. I'm not about to. The subject is too drepressing. You don't agree with me. You couldn't do anything about it even if you did.

irishcrazyhorse

schmooschmoo -very well said

Red Alert

You're complaining about a superficial lack of Poundworld... maybe we -could- get poundworld to open if you guys came out. Or maybe the SU shops could stock some more poundworld-like lines in the main store. So everybody gains. Maybe if ye looked at this in a number of ways instead of throwing a hissy fit it might help.

Kate is right about the perceivied lack of value / disinterest by the administration in Arts and Humanities. Within engineering alone there is a distinct bias towards certain disciplines. Undergrads and some postgrads are feeling the strain of money being diverted towards lucrative taught-postgraduate programmes. An entire computer room disappeared for an industry-serving paid-up programme's office. Brady and Co. are dangerous, but that isn't really the crux of this thread...

Seb it's great to see your parents protested about the move. Mine did too or so they say. I quite liked having some lectures in ET and some in BF. I don't like the way they want everything to be turned into bland clinical structures. Some of the 'unique' architecture like Arts and god-forbid Eng is being destroyed in the quest to aesthetically Bradyize the place. Belfield has its good points, especially on the Social side. ET has its good points too, and I've loved nearly every day i've spent there. The 'oldness' of the place, and the maze-like area behind the building add to its charm.

I'm quite happy to have NCAD here, but only if they are prepared to come and integrate with us. Loads of people have their own identity in UCD, be it stereotypical like Eng, CS, Architects - more different people = better for everyone => an art student should certainly want to be part of that.

panda100

Red Alert wrote:

Brady and Co. are dangerous, but that isn't really the crux of this thread...

About as dangerous as a new born puppy....but maybe some people percieve change and modernisation as fear of the unknown and 'dangerous'

Red Alert wrote:

Seb it's great to see your parents protested about the move. Mine did too or so they say. I quite liked having some lectures in ET and some in BF. I don't like the way they want everything to be turned into bland clinical structures. Some of the 'unique' architecture like Arts and god-forbid Eng is being destroyed in the quest to aesthetically Bradyize the place. Belfield has its good points, especially on the Social side. ET has its good points too, and I've loved nearly every day i've spent there. The 'oldness' of the place, and the maze-like area behind the building add to its charm.

.

As I said before the unique architecture of earlsfortt terrace is lovely and all but the reality is its a leaky old cramped building that is cut off from the rest of the college. Being cut off from the college means we are cut off from other students and being cut off from other students is a fundementally bad thing as its intresting and enriches all the college if all different types of students can integrate. I cant believe your saying congrats to your parents for protesting about the move to belfield....where would the campus accomodation been for those who came up from the country?people from outsde dublin also have the right to go to UCD.And where would have all the excellent sporting facilities been built??Have you ever been inside trinity cramped gym and cramped playing fields? If UCD was still in Earlsfortt terrace it would be a disaster...I cant think of anything worse then going to college in the city...if you wanted that you should have gone to trinity,if you didnt get the points then dont complain as UCD was my first choice (like many others) and I wanted freedom of space etc etc.....

panda100

panda100 wrote:

...if you wanted that you should have gone to trinity,if you didnt get the points then dont complain as UCD was my first choice (like many others) and I wanted freedom of space etc etc.....

Obviously Im not implying red alert that you didnt get the points:) ,it was more in refrence to what pretty monster said earlier

humbert

panda100 wrote:

About as dangerous as a new born puppy....but maybe some people percieve change and modernisation as fear of the unknown and 'dangerous'



As I said before the unique architecture of earlsfortt terrace is lovely and all but the reality is its a leaky old cramped building that is cut off from the rest of the college. Being cut off from the college means we are cut off from other students and being cut off from other students is a fundementally bad thing as its intresting and enriches all the college if all different types of students can integrate. I cant believe your saying congrats to your parents for protesting about the move to belfield....where would the campus accomodation been for those who came up from the country?people from outsde dublin also have the right to go to UCD.And where would have all the excellent sporting facilities been built??Have you ever been inside trinity cramped gym and cramped playing fields? If UCD was still in Earlsfortt terrace it would be a disaster...I cant think of anything worse then going to college in the city...if you wanted that you should have gone to trinity,if you didnt get the points then dont complain as UCD was my first choice (like many others) and I wanted freedom of space etc etc.....

This all seems more like a continuation of the previous "Poor meds stuck out in nasty old ET" argument than anything to do with how suitable or unsuitable belfield is for the more artistic NCAD breed of student. I completely sympathise with them, I like belfield but I've had friends who went to NCAD and really enjoyed and benefited from the Thomas Street campus, I'd love to see NCAD students provide a greater diversity to the belfield student populous but I can understand how from their point of view belfield's rather sterile atmosphere wouldn't benefit them. I think schmooschmoo puts the argument forward very well.

Chinafoot

humbert wrote:

This all seems more like a continuation of the previous "Poor meds stuck out in nasty old ET" argument than anything to do with how suitable or unsuitable belfield is for the more artistic NCAD breed of student.

Agreed.

Get it back on topic please.

tintinr35

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

Firstly,your obviously dont have a clue.....

Firstly don’t dare presume that I don’t have a clue about the issues in question here buddy...I DO.

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

One of the reasons why we dont want to move is
A. Our campus is fine,the only prob is we have to rent some of out equipment
B.Thomas Street has everything we need plus some.
C.They have just annouced that they are going to turn the Temple bar/Christchuch area into into the cultural center of Dublin!.

Right so your campus is fine.... yet you just said that u have to rent some equipment (well I think that’s what u mean, you should learn how to type though)
What’s the difference between Thomas Street and Belfield?
They (I presume you mean Dublin corporation) have announced they are turning temple bar etc into a cultural centre, why does this effect or have anything to do with NCAD, what about the art colleges in DIT, GMIT, LIT CIT IATD etc

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

And not one person out there went to insult the teachers or students,they went out on the rafts to raise awareness and to get some media attention...

But as you are in the biggest facility in UCD you knew all that right!?!.

Ya so can you please Explain the slogan "Art not Orts" used by members of the protest from "YOUR" College, also they referred to the UCD campus as a "drab modernist spectacle"
Im sorry but I find that insulting your protests have not only come into and disrupted UCD's Campus you have insulted the University and the degree that the majority of students in the college are studying...HOW DARE ANY OF YE belittle the degree that I am studying for, I worked damn hard to get and stay here (as im sure you NCAD students did) and I wont have anyone from another college coming in here and putting me or my fellow students down like that its just not on.

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

The reason they want us to move is
A.They want the money for the land(we wont see a penny)
B.To merge our fine art department with yours(as well have the largest library in the country,of art/designs books, and some of the best tutors)
C.In the end it will not benifit us really in any way,will benifit the odd department in UCD and really take NCAD identity away...
.

They want money from the land and the students wont see a penny.... what do u expect an allowance, they money would be used to build the new NCAD campus which would be in Belfield
Mate we don’t have a fine art department so I don’t see how they could be merged.... the plan is not to merge the College and the University it’s RELOCATION.
"Some of the best tutors" I know at least 3 of my History of Art lecturers are graduates of NCAD so are they inferior because they work here.
Your library would not be merged with ours either as far as I know (correct me if im wrong) all the newest faculty buildings in Belfield are equipped with individual libraries (Vets, Nurses etc). Our library simply could not accommodate all of the books from NCAD and regardless as I already stated the institutions would be remaining separate.

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

The problem is not with UCD or the name,it is that NCAD is a unique,small college,with some of the brightest young artists/designers who all associate with each other.
To move the people out the the jungle that is UCD,the association between artists would be lost...

I really do hope that the majoity of UCD students undertstand what we are trying to do here and will support us,for any of you that have ever been in NCAD for any of our avents ,I say you all ready understand.

How would any association be lost as Finner already said do you not agree that you could only benefit from the proximity of another student body?

Can you honestly tell me that you see no benefits in relocation to Belfield.... not even one! By all means stay in Thomas street and gradually turn into a for want of a better word shíthole but here NCAD students are not willing to look past their noses to see what is best for the development and advancement of the college.

To end my rant i will quote your good self!

irishcrazyhorse wrote:

You obviously dont have a clue.....

Blush_01

From my point of view, albeit a non-visually-artistic one, I cannot honestly see how NCAD students wouldn't at least entertain the thought of moving. To be frank, if it's going to happen, it'll happen with or without you. You don't own "your" college, as the point has already been made, and if it moves you can put up or shut up, it's that simple.

Within Belfield there's huge diversity. Small classes still have the same comeraderie as small colleges do - it's possible to confine yourself to your academic group if you want to, and solely socialise within that group. It's not advisable, but it is possible, especially in small classes.

Being on UCD's main campus means that you're not only close to the city centre - and can easily head back to the city centre or Thomas St. or wherever you want to go - but you're also close to the sea - it's only a stroll away. You have the various different areas within Belfield itself - the construction sites, the realtive nature reserve of Tir na nOg, woods out near the creche, disused buildings, an observatory, varying genres of architecture, close proximity to estates, isolated housing, apartment complexes, an entire world of fences full of holes to explore. You're not too far from anywhere, and perhaps the blank canvas of Belfield could possibly seen as an untapped well of opportunity?

I'm the ex-auditor of the ELS. We're the creative writing society in UCD. What we do is also art (in a manner of speaking), but we also do our academic work in UCD. There's far more to UCD than the NCAD students seem to give us credit for. I personally hate the narrow view people have of the ELS - we're not a bunch of parasitic and pretentious snobs. We're not elitist. We are artists, yes, but you can take or leave our art. Just because we're artists doesn't mean the world owes us anything. Now, that may all seem like a lot of faff to many of you, but it's the truth as I see it. I also feel the same about visual art. It will be taken or left on an individual basis. Visual art does not mean the world owes you, the artist, anything. Nor does the world owe the art, your creation, anything. It's wonderful that you were talented enough to get into NCAD. But pigeon-holing yourself is not only irresponsible, it's stupid, exclusionary and elitist. Inspiration can be found in anything - including instability. Open your eyes to at least considering the possibilities before you bury yourselves in the past.

(And as for poundsworth - go there in your own time. Don't be naive enough to think that the world - or the Liberties - will fall in without you. You think Duffys won't cope without your business? Take it from someone who knows all 6 of Duffy's stores - they're going nowhere.)

And finally, all of the above - my post and the rest - are effectively moot points. Why? Because the move was merely a suggestion made by someone in an office somewhere as to what could possibly be done. If it was going ahead, there'd be far more concrete evidence of the move available than a few NCAD students paddling a raft poorly around the lake, or wavng rather un-artistic placards around the place. At least put a bit of effort in if you're going to insult us.

humbert

I think not having experienced college life from the perspective of an NCAD student in college in the Thomas street campus we can't really judge. I don't simply think it's a matter of taking inspiration from the surroundings but being surrounded by similar artistic people is conducive to creativity. I don't think that's elitist. I can imagine how being subsumed into a very large college like ucd would be an unpleasant prospect coming from a very small one and how they do not want to lose their identity, lets face it they would be a minority and it can be intimidating being expressive(and they are an expressive lot) as a minority. Also I'm sure it's not their goal to insult ucd students or less still to do so in an artistic manner but just to have their objections noted by whatever means possible.

Red Alert

By the same token why do they profess to know that Orts/UCD/Belfield is a bad thing? Surely it doesn't befit an artist of any sort to have a closed mind, nor does it befit an artist to condemn others just because they're different. It strikes me that they have decided that UCD is beneath them in spite of everything it offers them.

(Panda: my point about ET is that we should have kept and developed the ET campus like Blackrock. And it's only 15 minutes on the 46A from belfield)

rain on

I'm not siding with either NCAD or UCD here but there's just one point I wanted to address..

humbert wrote:

I can imagine how being subsumed into a very large college like ucd would be an unpleasant prospect coming from a very small one and how they do not want to lose their identity, lets face it they would be a minority and it can be intimidating being expressive(and they are an expressive lot) as a minority.

Everybody in UCD is in a minority in some way though. As a postgrad I'm in the minority by about 18,000. There are nine people in my entire course. 37 at my level in the department. When I was an undergrad, I was in a department that had a total of seven academic staff. I'm sure everybody could list off ways in which they're minorities in UCD - it's inevitable in somewhere so big. And I don't think it negatively affects anyone, really. We just get on with things.

tintinr35

postgrads are generally in a minority in any college tho!! anyway NCAD is just goin to be on the grounds of belfield its not actually goin to be part of ucd

Riamfada

they will still all be together in the same buildling drawing inspiration from the same people as they were in Thomas Street. The only thing that chages is the location.

humbert

rain on wrote:

Everybody in UCD is in a minority in some way though. As a postgrad I'm in the minority by about 18,000. There are nine people in my entire course. 37 at my level in the department. When I was an undergrad, I was in a department that had a total of seven academic staff. I'm sure everybody could list off ways in which they're minorities in UCD - it's inevitable in somewhere so big. And I don't think it negatively affects anyone, really. We just get on with things.

I expected someone to comment on that, I referred to them as a minority for two reasons, because the students of NCAD are quite different from any of the schools currently in UCD that I can think of, their courses really are very different, and also because they would be new here, which I accept would be a temporary problem but none the less I can fully understand why they would prefer to stay where they are. When they were here protesting I think most people would admit that it wasn't difficult to tell them apart from the rest of the student populous(I don't mean cuz they were holding banners:)).

Blush_01

Ah for flip sake, the freshers are new here every year. Things are constantly changing - and they'd still have their own place to be creative together. People might just be able to take modules in their courses, opening up the subject to those who are doing other things too. Likewise they could take modules in what we study. I'd consider that a benefit - or is it widening things out too much and accepting too many people into what is, as it stands, an elitist field anyway.

beanyb

As far as I've gathered, they wouldnt be able to take modules in our courses, and we wouldnt be able to take any in theirs. They'll remain a totally autonomous university, they'll just be on our campus. I could be totally wrong though.

I can understand why they dont want to move. They dont see the need to. They have a recently built extension to their campus, and think that the facilities they already have are perfectly fine. However, I do think they ran the campaign badly, and it's that that is making everyone in ucd have the opinions they have.

Monkey

"what about the art colleges in DIT, GMIT, LIT CIT IATD etc"

I go to the art college at DIT. It is fairly central and I'd hate to move out to UCD. Its more than just the journey its about being close to the cities galleries, shops (not just art shops because artists work with a huge range of materials), and the city as a source of inspiration. Studying art is not like studying more conventional academic subjects. You don't have classes and definite outcomes - its a totally different practice. UCD is ugly and would not be a good place for artists to work.

NCAD is government funded and has a responsibility to its students it is not just another private business.

Red Alert

Monkey wrote:

UCD is ugly and would not be a good place for artists to work.

Beauty's supposed to be in the eye of the beholder. Maybe I'd think your building is ugly. Some people actually like the UCD architecture like I do. The tunnels and arts block all scream cold war, stalinist etc and would be amazing as an inspirational source.

Buildings is just a minor thing: however would the wider social mix, better all-round facilities, clubs, socs in UCD not be beneficial? There's nearly more positives for these guys in the move than there are for us.

tintinr35

Monkey wrote:

"what about the art colleges in DIT, GMIT, LIT CIT IATD etc"

. UCD is ugly and would not be a good place for artists to work.

Are you taking the píss mate? DIT is real easy on the eye alright!

if that first bit is a quote from what i said, u dont really seem to have understood what i meant maybe try reading it again