NCAD move

pretty*monster

You know, though I do have sympathy for those in NCAD who don't want to move, the 'ucd is ugly' argument is a load of bs.

First of all the belfield campus is not universally ugly.
I've always heald that the view over lake one from the windows in the library is beautiful.
The view over the campus from the fifth floor of the arts block is quite pretty.
Roebuck Castle is quite lovely as far as old buildings go, as is richview.
If you're into your nature buzz the wooded area ar ound the perimiter and lake two has it all.
The grass infront of O Reilly Hall if a lovely place to chill out when you should be studying. Making daisy chains, feeding the ducks, taunting the swans, or just getting stoned, it's all good!

Secondly, I think it's completely bogus to say that an artist can only be inspired by beauty. Artists should be connected to the world around them, and, no it's not always beutiful, but it can inspire good art. I didn't hear Picasso complaining that Guernica wasn't 'beautiful' enough to inspire him, ditto Turner's Slave Ship.

The_Minister

I say move them if its more efficient. The students are replaceable and cannot speak for those that come after them. Belfield is bigger and larger then their campus and thus should provide them with many vistas as they explore (I suspect that the egg will have them liking their lead-paint brushes). They could merge their union with ours (UCDDSUNCAD) but could remain seperate from other faculties (when were you last in engineering?) if they want to look down their noses at those who are "useful", or "productive". They can have better facilities and equipment in UCD Dublin anyway.
I don't think that UCDDSU should get involved in this as it will make no difference to us if they come or not. All it will mean is a few more berets floating about.

Monkey

Red Alert wrote:

Beauty's supposed to be in the eye of the beholder. Maybe I'd think your building is ugly. Some people actually like the UCD architecture like I do. The tunnels and arts block all scream cold war, stalinist etc and would be amazing as an inspirational source.

Buildings is just a minor thing: however would the wider social mix, better all-round facilities, clubs, socs in UCD not be beneficial? There's nearly more positives for these guys in the move than there are for us.

DIT doesn't have a campus its immediate environemt is the city and the art college at DIT is in a great building. I think the facilites in NCAD are fine. They have a range of clubs and socs in DIT and I don't know anyone who is active in any of them. I don't think they are important. and also NCAD is still going to be a seperate institution so their socities probably won't be merged.

I don't think UCD is an inspiring place. It's bleak. My point isn't that artists should be in beautiful environments but that they won;t thrive in an isolated, constructed, grim environment like UCD. Also though some may take inspiration from the architecture imagine how dull and repetitive it would be if eveyone was doing that.

And incidently the slave ship, war etc could be seen as beautiful. Beauty is not the same as prettiness.

Chinafoot

Monkey wrote:

And incidently the slave ship, war etc could be seen as beautiful. Beauty is not the same as prettiness.

They could also be described as "bleak". Eye of the beholder and all that jazz.

At the end of the day folks if the authorities want this move to happen, it'll happen.

anonymous_joe

Can see why they don't want to leave another campus in fairness, and I have to agree with those who say a central location better suits them.

Obviously the arguments about 'art not orts' are moronic. The implication that UCD is some kind of cultural wasteland isn't just insulting, it's down right idiocy. Such an argument is hardly going to earn support from all us UCDites.

Clearly money plays an issue, any campus in town has to be worth a packet. Business wise, the move makes total sense. (I am a commerce student after all:p )

The issue seems to be that you're being screwed over in moving out to UCD, well let's look at it this way, the cultural well-being of your college is not an issue that UCD deals with. Our college isn't the one that needs to be pilloried by a shower of Emos, Crusties and muppets who couldn't hack any real courses... (Gross generalisations are always the best way to make fun... )

Why insult us?

ozt9vdujny3srf

Dear pretty*monster,

I am writing to inform you that "preformatively", which you have used twice, is in fact not a word and does not even resemble any word that would make sense in the context of the sentences you have used "preformatively" in. As such, using this "word" makes it extremely hard to take you seriously.

Seriously though, I like to think this board is moderated pretty leniently in order to facilitate full expression of opinion, however, making up stupid words then using them absolutely seriously is pretty damn annoying and lowers the tone of the board, which I think is grounds for banning. You probably all disagree, but hell, this aint no democracy! Only cromulent words in future please.


Kind regards,

Truckle

Sangre

hahahah....truckle. classic.

Brother is in NCAD next year. (he's the dud in the family)

tintinr35

Andrea Strong Teamwork wrote:

Dear pretty*monster,

I am writing to inform you that "preformatively", which you have used twice, is in fact not a word and does not even resemble any word that would make sense in the context of the sentences you have used "preformatively" in. As such, using this "word" makes it extremely hard to take you seriously.

Seriously though, I like to think this board is moderated pretty leniently in order to facilitate full expression of opinion, however, making up stupid words then using them absolutely seriously is pretty damn annoying and lowers the tone of the board, which I think is grounds for banning. You probably all disagree, but hell, this aint no democracy! Only cromulent words in future please.


Kind regards,

Andrea Strong Teamwork

he does exist

singingstranger

I've only just read the entire thread for the first time right now, and have just a couple of small things to add. Like Seb, I don't often contribute to these because of my clinincal inability to maintain a straight argumentative line but I have a couple of small points to make.

(1) - I can't believe people have been listing the varying degrees and styles of architecture in UCD without mentioning the turn-of-the-millennium swish charm of the Quinn Building. Personally - and I'm aware that beauty is very much an each-to-their-own concept - I can't see what aesthetic beauty and inspiration a city can offer that Belfield can't, because - as has been mentioned - there are so many different architectural genres to be seen in UCD while still having enough decentralised green space (don't forget it's the biggest campus in Europe, but I'll deal with assuaging those fears later) to act, as has been suggested, as a blank canvas.

(2) - I think any argument about how Thomas St needs refurbishment, and that the Belfield move would end up cheaper, boils down to the fact that selling a prime site in that part of town would earn NCAD enough money to build a purpose-designed facility in Belfield that could only be far better than what NCAD students currently use. Imagine the custom-designed perks of what Thomas St has to offer, except brand spanking new and with twenty-five years of experience on top of it.

(3) - In passing, this reminds me - UCD is Government-funded too, as it is, along with NCAD, a constituent body of the National University of Ireland. While UCD of course gives the impression of being only interested in profit, some would argue that UCD's administration is merely showing good business acumen and a responsibility to spend public money wisely. (Of course, whether you think they do so is anybody's own opinion. Personally I think they have their priorities weighted a little incorrectly but there you go.)

(4) - UCD isn't in the middle of nowhere, it's not as if you're being planted in the middle of a field somewhere. Not only would you have a custom-built facility (which, bear in mind, would have to be out to one side of the campus, probably at the Clonskeagh end) but you'd also be going to college on Dublin's largest bus terminus.

(5) - Following on from 4, there is very little land left to build a new facility in the core of the campus itself. The little green space left wouldn't nearly be enough to house your facility if the standalone library were to be maintained (and this would have to be the case, because there's not enough room in the Joyce library building to host your collection in a reasonable space) so you would likely be out at the Clonskeagh end of the campus, where the Architecture school down at Richview is mainly based. These Arch students will assure you that you can easily strike the healthy balance of maintaining their school's (and likewise NCAD's) identity and the ability to isolate yourselves (if you so wish) while still having access, should you want it, to UCD's main hub and student populace. Any argument about being swamped in UCD falls flat, as the UCD populace will not subsume NCAD students unless the students themselves, individually, wish to integrate with it. And if you're at the other (Roebuck) end of the campus, the Law students will tell you exactly the same.

(6) - The idea that NCAD would be merging with UCD's art department is ludicrous and unfounded. Maybe I'm wrong and the plan genuinely is to merge with UCD, but even still, this would be a change in name alone, for reasons (2) and (5) above. And UCD does not have an "art department" to speak of, but merely a 'School of Art History & Cultural Policy'. What would therefore happen would be that this school would suppliment the BA course offered by NCAD in Art and Design Education. The relatively small size of the UCD school, though, would stop it from completely overrunning the HADCOM (History of Art and Design & Complementary Studies) faculty. And all of this course integration only happens, of course, if NCAD is to become part of UCD. Which it's not.

(7) - About having access to various shops, and so on... I hold my hands high. I don't know of any art supplies shops that you'd have access to if NCAD mushroomed on Belfield tomorrow morning. However, I would say two small things. The first is that people in Belfield's part of town are not stupid. There is enough of a healthy measure of affluence in Dublin 4 for somebody to come up with the idea of opening enough shops to cover your needs (and at worst, you're only a short bus ride from town anyway), and this isn't even to mention that if you were enthusiastic enough about doing so, your Students' Union could liaise with our own to aid you in starting up your own SU-run supplies shop, which (as it would have been built and supplied according to your own needs and requests) would surely suffice.
The second thing I would say is that using a pound shop as the named example of what you'd be missing, while having its merits in terms of cheap goodies, seems somewhat petty and makes the argument look facetiously petty.

That's all I can think of right now - other than I think the fact that some UCD students were offended by the 'Arts not Orts' thing has been properly dealt with and that we can accept that no malice was intended; should I think of anything else of real substance to contribute I'll do so.

pretty*monster

Andrea Strong Teamwork wrote:

Dear pretty*monster,

I am writing to inform you that "preformatively", which you have used twice, is in fact not a word and does not even resemble any word that would make sense in the context of the sentences you have used "preformatively" in. As such, using this "word" makes it extremely hard to take you seriously.

Seriously though, I like to think this board is moderated pretty leniently in order to facilitate full expression of opinion, however, making up stupid words then using them absolutely seriously is pretty damn annoying and lowers the tone of the board, which I think is grounds for banning. You probably all disagree, but hell, this aint no democracy! Only cromulent words in future please.


Kind regards,

Andrea Strong Teamwork

Dear Andrea Strong Teamwork,

Mercifully you attempt to sound more intelligent than me does not bother me in the slightest.
A word cannot be said to 'not exist' simply because you, and dictionary.com, and msword are not familiar with it.
You are not aquainted with Jean Baudrillard’s comments on the demise of education.
Good for you.
If you were interested in what I meant my 'performativity' I could have directed you to a very telling passage of his but I don't think are even slightly interested in doing anything but massaging your own ego and abusing your power as moderator (which is ironic since you've dragged this thread off topic).

Yours faithfully,
Pretty*monster
(will continue to use obscure words when they are the most appropriate to express her sentiments sussinctly)

Chinafoot

Children can we all get back on topic please? :rolleyes:

Also for the record, if a mod makes a comment about a persons post generally it is not regarded as being "off-topic" but it is regarded as "moderating".
Responding to it in that way drags it off topic.

Perhaps you two should sort it out via PM because the next person even remotely off-topic on this thread is gone for a week.

arbeitsscheuer

peachypants wrote:

Perhaps you two should sort it out via PM because the next person even remotely off-topic on this thread is gone for a week.

Perfect!

Um... I like tuna sandwiches. Mmmmm. Brain food. Etcetera.

Thank sweet mother of f**k - I'm free of this goshdarned monkey on my back...

Chinafoot

Your wish is my command!

ozt9vdujny3srf

My apologies for dragging this even more off topic but:


Pretty*monster, if you actually read your own posts and mine, you will find that on two occasions, you said "preformatively" and not "performativity", and although neither are words, the latter at least resembles one. So what you actually did is defend your use of a word that not only did you not use, but also a word that I was not attacking. Keep fighting the good fight there!

If you were interested in what I meant my 'performativity' I could have directed you to a very telling passage of his but I don't think are even slightly interested in doing anything but massaging your own ego and abusing your power as moderator (which is ironic since you've dragged this thread off topic).

Ok, so let’s give you the benefit of the doubt, let’s pretend that you actually meant to say "performativity". How can you justify using a term that was made up by some relatively obscure academic (obscure enough for the vast majority of the people on this board to not know of...) and expect everyone to know what it means without even a hint of explanation? It certainly doesn't make your point more succinct, its just very confusing and bloody irritating to read.

You're just another punter like everyone else on this board sticking in your oar, so stop trying to pretend that you're especially enlightened on the subject at hand by using and obscure term that nobody knows the meaning of.

ozt9vdujny3srf

Andrea Strong Teamwork wrote:

My apologies for dragging this even more off topic but:


Pretty*monster, if you actually read your own posts and mine, you will find that on two occasions, you said "preformatively" and not "performativity", and although neither are words, the latter at least resembles one. So what you actually did is defend your use of a word that not only did you not use, but also a word that I was not attacking. Keep fighting the good fight there!



Ok, so let’s give you the benefit of the doubt, let’s pretend that you actually meant to say "performativity". How can you justify using a term that was made up by some relatively obscure academic (obscure enough for the vast majority of the people on this board to not know of...) and expect everyone to know what it means without even a hint of explanation? It certainly doesn't make your point more succinct, its just very confusing and bloody irritating to read.

You're just another punter like everyone else on this board sticking in your oar, so stop trying to pretend that you're especially enlightened on the subject at hand by using and obscure term that nobody knows the meaning of.

Did you not read peachys post? Are you blind or stupid?

Banned for a week.

Chinafoot

Andrea Strong Teamwork wrote:

Banned for a week

Oh how I wish I could....

Chakar

singingstranger wrote:

I've only just read the entire thread for the first time right now, and have just a couple of small things to add. Like Seb, I don't often contribute to these because of my clinincal inability to maintain a straight argumentative line but I have a couple of small points to make.

(1) - I can't believe people have been listing the varying degrees and styles of architecture in UCD without mentioning the turn-of-the-millennium swish charm of the Quinn Building. Personally - and I'm aware that beauty is very much an each-to-their-own concept - I can't see what aesthetic beauty and inspiration a city can offer that Belfield can't, because - as has been mentioned - there are so many different architectural genres to be seen in UCD while still having enough decentralised green space (don't forget it's the biggest campus in Europe, but I'll deal with assuaging those fears later) to act, as has been suggested, as a blank canvas.

(2) - I think any argument about how Thomas St needs refurbishment, and that the Belfield move would end up cheaper, boils down to the fact that selling a prime site in that part of town would earn NCAD enough money to build a purpose-designed facility in Belfield that could only be far better than what NCAD students currently use. Imagine the custom-designed perks of what Thomas St has to offer, except brand spanking new and with twenty-five years of experience on top of it.

(3) - In passing, this reminds me - UCD is Government-funded too, as it is, along with NCAD, a constituent body of the National University of Ireland. While UCD of course gives the impression of being only interested in profit, some would argue that UCD's administration is merely showing good business acumen and a responsibility to spend public money wisely. (Of course, whether you think they do so is anybody's own opinion. Personally I think they have their priorities weighted a little incorrectly but there you go.)

(4) - UCD isn't in the middle of nowhere, it's not as if you're being planted in the middle of a field somewhere. Not only would you have a custom-built facility (which, bear in mind, would have to be out to one side of the campus, probably at the Clonskeagh end) but you'd also be going to college on Dublin's largest bus terminus.

(5) - Following on from 4, there is very little land left to build a new facility in the core of the campus itself. The little green space left wouldn't nearly be enough to house your facility if the standalone library were to be maintained (and this would have to be the case, because there's not enough room in the Joyce library building to host your collection in a reasonable space) so you would likely be out at the Clonskeagh end of the campus, where the Architecture school down at Richview is mainly based. These Arch students will assure you that you can easily strike the healthy balance of maintaining their school's (and likewise NCAD's) identity and the ability to isolate yourselves (if you so wish) while still having access, should you want it, to UCD's main hub and student populace. Any argument about being swamped in UCD falls flat, as the UCD populace will not subsume NCAD students unless the students themselves, individually, wish to integrate with it. And if you're at the other (Roebuck) end of the campus, the Law students will tell you exactly the same.

(6) - The idea that NCAD would be merging with UCD's art department is ludicrous and unfounded. Maybe I'm wrong and the plan genuinely is to merge with UCD, but even still, this would be a change in name alone, for reasons (2) and (5) above. And UCD does not have an "art department" to speak of, but merely a 'School of Art History & Cultural Policy'. What would therefore happen would be that this school would suppliment the BA course offered by NCAD in Art and Design Education. The relatively small size of the UCD school, though, would stop it from completely overrunning the HADCOM (History of Art and Design & Complementary Studies) faculty. And all of this course integration only happens, of course, if NCAD is to become part of UCD. Which it's not.

(7) - About having access to various shops, and so on... I hold my hands high. I don't know of any art supplies shops that you'd have access to if NCAD mushroomed on Belfield tomorrow morning. However, I would say two small things. The first is that people in Belfield's part of town are not stupid. There is enough of a healthy measure of affluence in Dublin 4 for somebody to come up with the idea of opening enough shops to cover your needs (and at worst, you're only a short bus ride from town anyway), and this isn't even to mention that if you were enthusiastic enough about doing so, your Students' Union could liaise with our own to aid you in starting up your own SU-run supplies shop, which (as it would have been built and supplied according to your own needs and requests) would surely suffice.
The second thing I would say is that using a pound shop as the named example of what you'd be missing, while having its merits in terms of cheap goodies, seems somewhat petty and makes the argument look facetiously petty.

That's all I can think of right now - other than I think the fact that some UCD students were offended by the 'Arts not Orts' thing has been properly dealt with and that we can accept that no malice was intended; should I think of anything else of real substance to contribute I'll do so.

Seems like a straight argumentative line to me...

Chakar

I love cheese, tomato, bacon and chicken baguette mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmm................................................................

Húrin

Finner wrote:

I think my campus is beautiful, in it's own sort of way. It's beauty is in its modernity and the many different buildings from different decades bounce off each other in a very effective way.

I understand the NCAD students concerns that a move to UCD would mean a move out of the city centre which would be an inconvenience but on any other grounds I feel its an insult. They would gain a state of the art new facility and the college would still own and conduct some of their work on the Thomas Street sight. Students of both institutions would also benefit from the skills and experience each institution can offer each other while still maintaining their autonomy.

You don't understand. The students of NCAD don't hate you. Your campus lacks history and character. Sorry, but it's impossible to have these things when your campus is only 35 years old.

Even more importantly, the NCAD on Thomas St is near to IMMA and the National Gallery, and many other important art spaces.

Thomas St and the city centre in general also has a much wider variety of shops than Dublin 4 or Stillorgan. Art students require much more than canvas, paints and markers (many of us don't use those at all!). What would we get in Belfield? A Spar and an overpriced paintbrush shop? No thanks.

The NCAD has also forged strong links to the Liberties area and has friendships with the local community that should be deepened, not destroyed. The government also has long term plans to turn the area into a cultural quarter. Surely the NCAD is central to such a plan.

A move to UCD would alienate working-class students who are interested in art, but discouraged by the "priveleged" image of third level education. There is a lot of interest in the college in schools in the Liberties area.

beanyb wrote:

But since they've insulted us, it makes us really not care what happens to them even more. Bad strategic move.

We haven't insulted you. Not wanting to move to your campus is not an insult to you.

Húrin

Grimes wrote:

Academics , sheesh . Do they not get their paycheck off the college. IF your company decides to up and move 5 km down the road you ****ing move with them. I dont see why students should get special treatment over the rest of society(but then again from being kids to college most students have been looked after and given special treatment by the powers that be since they popped out and on graduationg will realise that the world dosnt care about them or their situation and there is no one to look after them

Integrating the NCAD into UCD would be detrimental to the national interest of this country. The college would lose independence and credibility. That would be a shame, because Ireland is supposed to be an artistic country in this globalised world.

Red Alert

I beg to differ with you - how can you say that just because our campus is newer it doesn't have character?

The cold-war stalinist architecture I think gives it nearly a morbid sort of character, with themes like Communism, Totalitarianism, Ireland of the 60s, Influence of the Catholic Church etc. Surely the mysteries of the tunnels, level 2 and a half, lake 2 and all the rest of it should act as a sort of inspiration. There's also a treasure chest of nature in UCD.

I'm sure ye don't like Hugh Brady & Co. - well wake up, a lot of us here don't either. A lot of us don't like what he's doing to our college either.

Have you lot actually come out and looked hard at our campus? In it's entirety? Maybe it's not so boring as you think.

anonymous_joe

H&#250 wrote: »

Integrating the NCAD into UCD would be detrimental to the national interest of this country. The college would lose independence and credibility. That would be a shame, because Ireland is supposed to be an artistic country in this globalised world.

Don't overestimate yourselves.

I'm on your side though, in so far as I can empathise with why you wouldn't want to come out to UCD, and I can definitely agree that a central location is very important to a college of your type.

Húrin

Grimes wrote:

ITs not YOUR campus and YOUR college!! Its their property and their business and there were other protests then the rafts in which people were insulted which left a bad taste in the mouths of many ucd students.

Incidentally, Grimes, are you one of these Thatcher clones who thinks that trade unions must be crushed?

In any case, a company or university must compete against others. Universities compete to get students. A NCAD move to UCD would make the place less attractive to students. (One of the main reasons I chose NCAD was its location.) We're just looking out for our college's interests here. We're advising the owners of the college (ultimately, the government) as to where their interest lies.

Húrin

Red Alert wrote:

I beg to differ with you - how can you say that just because our campus is newer it doesn't have character?

The cold-war stalinist architecture I think gives it nearly a morbid sort of character, with themes like Communism, Totalitarianism, Ireland of the 60s, Influence of the Catholic Church etc. Surely the mysteries of the tunnels, level 2 and a half, lake 2 and all the rest of it should act as a sort of inspiration. There's also a treasure chest of nature in UCD.

I'm sure ye don't like Hugh Brady & Co. - well wake up, a lot of us here don't either. A lot of us don't like what he's doing to our college either.

Have you lot actually come out and looked hard at our campus? In it's entirety? Maybe it's not so boring as you think.

I've been there numerous times. I even successfully applied to Mechanical Engineering. It is not entirely without worth (though please don't try to give us 'themes') but Thomas St contains so much more. Don't underestimate the importance of the variety of shops and the proximity to the city's major galleries and historic areas that we currently enjoy.

tintinr35

arguing about proximity to town is a bit silly now. we are only 10/15 mins from the city centre and on the bus route of the 2 most frequent buses in town, bet u a tenner i could get from here to the NGI(merrion square) quicker than you could from NCAD

beanyb

H&#250 wrote: »

We haven't insulted you. Not wanting to move to your campus is not an insult to you.

Well, judging by the amount of people on this thread who said they felt insulted by the actions of some of your protesters, I'd be pretty sure you insulted us. Yeah, it mightnt have been intentional, but it was still done.

Red Alert

I think it must have been partly intentional.

Your college board will ultimately decide whether or not to go here. If you want to protest go to them!

Could UCDSU pass a motion banning NCAD students (who presumably have their own SU and will keep it) from using union facilities here which they're not paying for?

singingstranger

Red Alert wrote:

I think it must have been partly intentional.

Your college board will ultimately decide whether or not to go here. If you want to protest go to them!

Could UCDSU pass a motion banning NCAD students (who presumably have their own SU and will keep it) from using union facilities here which they're not paying for?

/me spares everyone a rant about trying to screen people for UCD student cards when going into any of the UCDSU-run shops

H&#250 wrote: »

We haven't insulted you. Not wanting to move to your campus is not an insult to you.

Well, call me cynical, but I thinking pushing a student body of 21000+ into a Orts stereotype that the students almost unanimously hate, sorta writes off your chances of getting any help from a significant bunch of UCD students.

schmooschmoo

I know it's a lengthy read, but I do wish some people here would read everything that's been said here so far instead of trawling up the same arguments and going around in circles. It's obvious some people have read something that's riled them, skipped the rest and vented about something that people had since addressed. I'm looking at both sides on this one. Then again, I suppose hoping for a proper debate on the internet in such an open manner is a bit unrealistic. Not that I'm great at these things either

Anyway, I was planning on shutting up since the debate was falling apart but I thought you'd be interested in knowing that the proposed move is no more. The Board have voted against UCD as a possible relocation and are now devoting their efforts to means of developing the current campus. Hurrah! I firmly believe the protests played a large role in this and huge thanks to all those in UCD who supported them.

singingstranger

And that's the end of that chapter. I guess it's good that the Board decided to look at the easier option and stick with that they know, rather than just following the easy-money-move-to-D4 route. Not that I didn't think there were benefits to the move (see my post on the previous page) but I guess this way more of the current students are pleased; therefore so be it.

(I suspect lockage will ensue in due course...)