The Sandbox

FLAG

I will not get into detail on a public board about this complex area and indeed too much loose talk on such a public forum is more likley to do damage to us, as I indicated if you are a member of the SSAI via clubs or Associations make you queries through them.

Regards

Sparks

And as I indicated Declan, you can't be a member of the NRPAI via a club or as an individual, and I've seen nothing from any of the NRPAI organisations on this matter anywhere - here you have several individuals who have questions on this, and here you have a forum you could use to disseminate information. Not taking advantage of that is a puzzling action indeed.

Dvs

Sparks,
pretty much everyone else here,
wants to have Flag make update posts,
to relay how he feels his meetings with the DOJ or Garda are going,
specifically regarding the CJB and any issues arising out of his contacts with the powers that be.

Everyone here can make their own minds up,
on the information contained in them.

There is no point in your constant point by point dissections,
You are not the final arbiter of the truth.
Nobody finds it amusing except you.



Dvs.

Sparks

Dvs wrote:

Sparks,
pretty much everyone else here,
wants to have Flag make update posts,
to relay how he feels his meetings with the DOJ or Garda are going,
specifically regarding the CJB and any issues arising out of his contacts with the powers that be.

Indeed, myself included. Thing is, that's not what we're seeing. Any and all valid questions are being ignored, he is refusing to divulge any real information, and is belittling this mechanism for airing concerns and he has already stated explicitly that he will ignore any suggestion from here, regardless of the merit of that suggestion.

Frankly, the way it reads to me is that Declan is looking at the CJB and suddenly twigging to the fact that was laid out explicitly to him back in '01 - namely that a confrontation with the DoJ would only ever end one way, namely with us getting it in the neck - and suddenly we're seeing a change in language from "we have a right to our sport" and the general "are the DoJ/Gardai losing it?" to the new "we must make allowances for the legislators and understand that this is a complex process", and at the same time is refusing to pass on information regarding meetings with the DoJ where he was representing our interests. And that's just not good enough. I don't particularly care if it's not entertaining for you, that's not the object of asking these questions.

Dvs

Sparks wrote:

I don't particularly care if it's not entertaining for you, that's not the object of asking these questions.

Sparks,
I know that not the object,
the object is, for you to feel that you are scoring points,
in some ongoing conflict of the mind, that nobody else here gives a toss about,and trying to demonstrate that you are the smart one in the class,
with your finger on the pulse of everything!

I suppose that we should count ourselves lucky,
that Flag is seems to be the only forum member that get this response,
with every post he makes!

Dvs

Sparks

That's not the object of the exercise Dvs, but I doubt I'll be able to convince you of that. Happily, I don't have to. Unhappily, this exchange may well be used as an excuse not to answer questions that everyone posting here has been asking. (Indeed, if my questions are just a personal vendetta, why is it that everyone else is asking them as well?)

FLAG

Sparks you may feel it is the right place to ask questions, and indeed the questions I see asked are legitimate but in most cases based on considerable misinformation that is posted through a combination of isolated and poor interpretation of the proposed legislation and also in some cases total ignorance of the present legislation, not anyone’s fault but unfortunately a fact.

While the questions may be asked publicly I reiterate the point that it is certainly not the place for answers to be posted, clearly and obviously this is a public board, there is no control over who posts or who views and we are in grave danger of shooting our selves in the foot.

I do not have anything to hide, despite what you might say, but I am not prepared to post responses that may cause potential issues with people we deal with in Justice or the Gardai.

Let people who have concerns contact me on flagireland@eircom.net

We are in grave danger of doing more harm than good, skeptics appear to think that the legislation is to be feared, but despite your rhetoric we still have our pistols, rifles >.308 and reloading is in the pipe line, forget about your tiresome comment about who did what to get us where we are, I know what contribution was made by the FLAG sub committee and it was not only myself, but I can assure you having the Minister for Justice defend the need to reload would not have happened were it not for our submissions on the matter.

Give us all a break and don't tear this comment apart, we are all indeed tired of your dross.

Dvs

Sparks wrote:

That's not the object of the exercise Dvs, but I doubt I'll be able to convince you of that. Happily, I don't have to. Unhappily, this exchange may well be used as an excuse not to answer questions that everyone posting here has been asking. (Indeed, if my questions are just a personal vendetta, why is it that everyone else is asking them as well?)

Sparks,
this exchange will have no effect on the answering of any questions,
Thats just your paranoia, take deep breaths and count to ten it will pass.

You just don't seem to grasp the issue,
the problem is not asking questions.

The way that would be most efficent and productive is:

If a forum member asks a question of Flag,
Flag posts a response, forum member, reads response,
forum member makes their own mind up about Flags response.

The way it is now:
Flag posts anything,
first to respond Sparks!

Sparks dissects it into little pieces, everyone a point of contention, posts what he alleges is supporting evidence,that may date back to the year dot,which for the most part is,
he said, she said, at a meeting of whoever, based on Sparks opinion, then demands answers to every little piece, if he receives an answer, refuses to accept it and starts over.

Sparks, why don't you try and not do this,
and see if the first way, works for the rest of the forum members.

Dvs.

Sparks

Declan,
Are you then giving us your personal assurance that fullbore rifles, pistols, reloading, the ability to zero a rifle in an informal range without joining a club, our medical records, our characters and everything we have now will be safe after this bill is enacted? That we will see no use of this new legislation that will damage our sport? That we will be consulted with by the Minister in regard to guidelines in good faith and that those submissions will be listened to? Are you personally going to assure us of this?

And what if you're wrong?

Sparks

Dvs, I'd say you have some valid points, if it wasn't for the fact that what I've posted about Declan's posts is accurate and pertinent.

And it's too damn important to sit back and maintain a dignified silence. Declan is asking us to take on faith that a Minister, whose comments in the Committee all point to this bill being a rebuke to the shooting community for being impertinent enough to take court cases against him or his agents, is going to draft and enact a bill which gives him wide-ranging powers without checks or balances or appeals mechanisms and which would permit him in a single day to rewind the clock back to before Frank Brophy's case was won in terms of what firearms can and cannot practically be licenced, and to before Dunne v. Donoghue in terms of who can and cannot add rules to the firearms act; and then isn't going to do anything with those mechanisms? That he's suddenly going to be our bestest friend in the whole wide world ever; and the nice Garda isn't going to come round and actually ask for our medical records or character witnesses or for everyone to have to go out and spend thousands of euros on heavy-duty safes and monitored alarms and a dozen other such measures; and that all of the cases which Declan himself, along with the NARGC, have been so outraged at for the past decade that they've gone to the High Court more times than he's posted here, will all suddenly stop happening?

Yeah, I've got a problem with believing that analysis, thanks.

FLAG

Sparks wrote:

Declan,
Are you then giving us your personal assurance that fullbore rifles, pistols, reloading, the ability to zero a rifle in an informal range without joining a club, our medical records, our characters and everything we have now will be safe after this bill is enacted? That we will see no use of this new legislation that will damage our sport? That we will be consulted with by the Minister in regard to guidelines in good faith and that those submissions will be listened to? Are you personally going to assure us of this?

And what if you're wrong?

I have never made any statements to give support to what you say,, I will not personally assure anyone with respect to what may or may not happen in the future. What I do say is that continuing a debate on a public notice board will do us no good.

The pending legislation while not perfect is as good as it gets, if you wish to paint it as gloom and doom then that is your paranoid interpretation. There is still considerable work to be done into the future to shape the effect of the legislation in a manner that will protect our sport.

There are good people out there who can lead this forward in a positive manner but your attitude and bad mouthing reasonable effort to effect positive change will do no good. We know how serious matters are, we do not need to be reminded but there is due process in dealing with issues that have arisien from the proposed legislation and believe me public boards are not the way to do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What if I am wrong? Firstly I never made any statements that provided assurance that all would be rosy and there are no gurantees in life, anything may happen, look what happened in 1996, who could have predicted the total ban in the UK in 1998.

We do have a better working relationship with Justice and the Gardai than we ever had, didn't come easy and has taken more than 10 years, the strength of that relationship will mold the future regulation of the legislation where it will really matter.

Why do you not give it a rest and take a boards holiday, it would give us all a break.

Sparks

<deleted>

Comments made regarding a letter, and subsequently quoted here, are unsubstantiated and should not be taking into consideration. --The Admins.

sidneyreilly

LAds, will ye let Declan get on with his work and stop tying him up in silly nitpickin. He is dead right about publishing to much whilst the bill is still being brokered, it's like showing your hand. Keep up the good work FLAG!:D

FLAG

<deleted>

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Show the letter

Is that permission to do so?

perhaps the letter you refer to may be naming some other association

No, it named you personally.

FLAG

Sparks wrote:

Is that permission to do so?


No, it named you personally.

Publish it or shut up!

civdef

A new thread where arguments between users that are disrupting the flow of other threads will be placed.

Kimber

Can I see this document please?

Vegeta

show the doc

Kimber

<deleted>

Sparks

Still going through my records looking for it. Soon as I find it, I'll post here.

FLAG

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Mr. S. Power):

Before briefly outlining the proposals which it is intended to bring forward on Committee Stage, I thank the many sporting organisations involved in shooting, particularly the National Association of Regional Game Councils and the Shooting Sports Association of Ireland. They have engaged constructively with the Department in the development of a number of these new proposals. Over the years, members of all these shooting organisations have demonstrated an extremely responsible approach to their sport. Their excellent safety record in the handling and use of firearms bears testimony to this fact.

“Comments made on the referral of the bill to the Select Committee, certainly does not substantiate the allegations that have been made by Mark, if he cannot put his hands on a copy perhaps he might publish, who it was from, when it was written and to whom!"
Declan

Riggser

Oh the bitchyness.

FLAG

Riggser wrote:

Oh the bitchyness.

Hardly a fair comment when one has been named and had direct allegations made against them on a public board and when the substantive evidence supports the contrary situation, not everyone can appreciate the work that has been done in the past and continues to be done to sustain our sport!

Like I said hardly a fair comment, then again public boards are full of hidden agendas particularly when one does not have to identify ones self. Too many rude comments!

Kimber

I really think that if this document exists. It should be highlighted.
Permission has been given to produce the document.
Where is it? We are entitled to see it if it exists!!!

An allegation has been made by a member of the Forum to a member of the forum.
I am aghast that such an allegation would exist whether or not it is true or untrue and be subsequently broadcasted on a Forum.

In my mind such a statement had better have proof as such.
If there is a wrong doing or falsehood by any of the agruing parties.
Their reputations are shot and I would ask which ever one has commited the wrong doing resigns themselves from this forum.

Very dissapointed that this scenario exists. Very dissapointed.
Is it possible that this Thread is not moved and is retained on the main page till a conclusion has been sought.

1911

Sparks wrote:

Still going through my records looking for it. Soon as I find it, I'll post here.

How’s the searching going, did you check with the bin men yet maybe you threw it out by mistake!!!

FLAG

Still Waiting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FLAG

And still waiting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Riggser

I'm now waiting!

FLAG

Riggser wrote:

I'm now waiting!

And your point is?

maglite

we all want to see the possible scource of yeir ,,,mutual dislike, towords eachother