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The Sandbox
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what a bunch of self important whinging bítches.0
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FLAG wrote:A: Exactly what will damage our sport?
3 year license
Reloading
Range standards being applied, this only effects club shooters, hunters and vermin shooters are not effected by this, it is a myth if you believe you are.
We need to stop belly aching and work favourably with what we have, I can assure you it could have been a lot worse and I can show you the letters from 2002 that would have removed all pistols permanently, high court actions did not pull that back but relationship building did.
The legislation is now published in its final format, we can like it or lump it, a lot of work will need to be done on the generation of guidelines that will work in our favour. I believe it can be worked with. If there are issues that need resolution in the courts so be it, but that is not the way to resolve issues, there is nothing that can't be sorted through dialogue................
what will damage our sport???
Having to bend over even further backwards in the near future to get a license for every single gun. No defined response period from the gardai, a month a year??? Unacceptable!
Well they haven't even defined what a "range" is so how can they have applied standards?
Can you guarantee me, as a hunter if I set up a board for zeroing in the bottom of my field I wont get a range inspector knocking on my door. I don't think you can or are being wise in saying such things
work with what we have!! We have less now than we did last year.0 -
WhiteWashMan wrote:what a bunch of self important whinging bítches.
It's a pitty your number of posts don't reflect your intelligence or maturity.0 -
WhiteWashMan wrote:what a bunch of self important whinging bítches.
Are you just posting for numbers or do youy actually shoot, as a newby to the sport worried about what may happen, we dont need craplike this cloggin up the forum0 -
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Vegeta wrote:what will damage our sport???
Having to bend over even further backwards in the near future to get a license for every single gun. No defined response period from the gardai, a month a year??? Unacceptable!
Well they haven't even defined what a "range" is so how can they have applied standards?
Can you guarantee me, as a hunter if I set up a board for zeroing in the bottom of my field I wont get a range inspector knocking on my door. I don't think you can or are being wise in saying such things
work with what we have!! We have less now than we did last year.
I've started so I finish with these answers:
I cannot understand your view of the defined response period, it is in the legislation that a licence must be granted or refused in a maximum of three months from the date of application, a refusal can be challenged at the district court level.............Where is the problem?
The legislation does not need to define a range, we the shooting public clubs and associations do that, once you set up a formal, formal, location for shooting, offer membership, constitute the club, use the club as a basis for the application of a firearms certificate, then you have a range. The notion only thought up of on this board, that an individual shooting on private property could or would be defined as a range is rubbish. Do you really believe the legislation was written to target individuals shooting on private property. The role of the range inspector is laid out in the legislation, the practical application of this will be defined in the regulation and the guidelines.
It is a very narrow view that you have, if you feel we have less than we had before, there is a significant degree of clarity brought forward with the new legislation, who said it would be perfect! In modern times with shooting sports under pressure from all areas, United Nations down to local objections, we did very well considering. Also our firearms legislation is nearly 100 years old with amendments cobbled together, is it a wonder that the Gardai are confused, technical advances in firearms have far advanced the integrity of the current firearms legislation. We operate under the 1845 Explosives Acts, how can modern propellant be accommodated under such and act when the product did not exist.
So you do not think a three year licence is progress, mandatory response time for a licence application is not progress, district court appeals for all aspects of decisions made by Superintendents, the Garda Commissioner and the Minister is not progress, the clarification and the absolute ability to carry out reloading is not progress, the introduction of training certificates to remove the ambiguity of under 16's handling and training in shooting Sports is not progress. Not the least the requirement to provide written guidelines that are clear and transparent to all persons wishing to know anything about the firearms application process is not progress. What exactly do you want?
Another point that may have eluded you, up to 1993, we had access only to .22 rifles and shotguns, with deer stalkers only having access to .22-250. In recent years we have regained access to all firearms, pistols, Revolvers, higher calibre rifles.
What really do you think we are being denied. Don't answer please because I do not have the time to continue the debate.0 -
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FLAG wrote:I've started so I finish with these answers:
I cannot understand your view of the defined response period, it is in the legislation that a licence must be granted or refused in a maximum of three months from the date of application, a refusal can be challenged at the district court level.............Where is the problem?
The legislation does not need to define a range, we the shooting public clubs and associations do that, once you set up a formal, formal, location for shooting, offer membership, constitute the club, use the club as a basis for the application of a firearms certificate, then you have a range. The notion only thought up of on this board, that an individual shooting on private property could or would be defined as a range is rubbish. Do you really believe the legislation was written to target individuals shooting on private property. The role of the range inspector is laid out in the legislation, the practical application of this will be defined in the regulation and the guidelines.
It is a very narrow view that you have, if you feel we have less than we had before, there is a significant degree of clarity brought forward with the new legislation, who said it would be perfect! In modern times with shooting sports under pressure from all areas, United Nations down to local objections, we did very well considering. Also our firearms legislation is nearly 100 years old with amendments cobbled together, is it a wonder that the Gardai are confused, technical advances in firearms have far advanced the integrity of the current firearms legislation. We operate under the 1845 Explosives Acts, how can modern propellant be accommodated under such and act when the product did not exist.
So you do not think a three year licence is progress, mandatory response time for a licence application is not progress, district court appeals for all aspects of decisions made by Superintendents, the Garda Commissioner and the Minister is not progress, the clarification and the absolute ability to carry out reloading is not progress, the introduction of training certificates to remove the ambiguity of under 16's handling and training in shooting Sports is not progress. Not the least the requirement to provide written guidelines that are clear and transparent to all persons wishing to know anything about the firearms application process is not progress. What exactly do you want?
Another point that may have eluded you, up to 1993, we had access only to .22 rifles and shotguns, with deer stalkers only having access to .22-250. In recent years we have regained access to all firearms, pistols, Revolvers, higher calibre rifles.
What really do you think we are being denied. Don't answer please because I do not have the time to continue the debate.
Mark and fans, If you cant understand that, and you still think FLAG did notting for Shooting in ireland, There is no hope for you,
TBH Mark you have done notting for shooting in ireland bar try to hurt it, We are lucky to keep our firearms, and still be able to shoot and one day have an IRISH IPSC World Champion "Me ofc" But that aside, I think we should arranage a boxing match between Mark and Declan all money go to the FLAG so they can keep up the battle, Hell At this point il even get in the ring with MARK, For the kids ofc!0 -
3 months is way too long, a car license for something made of a tonne or so of steel can be got in less than a third of that time how many road deaths a year versus licensed gun deaths. All i've been saved is two 5 min trips to the station, it still costs the same amount! Whoop de doo. Again each gun licensed rather than the person, what a joke.
What exactly is a doctor going to check me for when i have to get a new license, is a doctor even qualified to comment on firearms ownership. If so how. Where are the guidelines for this. Does anyone even know them
It is now harder to get into shooting by the way of more requirements. It is more expensive to get into an already expensive sport, between club membership, gun safe, doctors visit, training courses and the whatever else the Super wants to tack on there, I haven't even mentioned the cost of firearms themselves. Yeah real victory for a 16 year old there. Well done lads. He might want ot quit school to afford all that though.
none of the things you've mentioned will affect my day to day shooting practices. This story reminds me of Jack and the bean stalk except our beans are not magic.
FLAG you may say that we are demented and are worried about things we have picked up on ourselves like hunters with informal ranges on their land to zero their rifles, but unless you can guarantee me by some method of proof that this is a perfectly legal activity according to the new legislation then I am afraid i will not take your word for it.
What happens if I take your advice and get prosecuted, can i take you to court for giving that advice?? I'd be careful about the statements you are making here.
I'd love if the Minister turned around and told us we were wrong and it is ok for hunters to do this, but he hasn't. All we have now is your word. Sorry but I'd like something a little more concrete than your word.
I don't mind been proven wrong but for that i need proof, not forum guarantees0 -
I would tend to agree with Vegeta here....
As an "ordinary" shooter I see my position as worse off here.
I don't reload.
I'm long since past 16.
1 or 3 year license doesn't really matter one way or the other.
Its things like having to prove competence, getting doctors (or dentists !) to sign off on my mental state, the hassle of getting referees, the whole undefined "range" and range officer thing...... these are what effect me and these look like going through.0 -
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17HMR wrote:I would tend to agree with Vegeta here....
As an "ordinary" shooter I see my position as worse off here.
I don't reload.
I'm long since past 16.
1 or 3 year license doesn't really matter one way or the other.
Its things like having to prove competence, getting doctors (or dentists !) to sign off on my mental state, the hassle of getting referees, the whole undefined "range" and range officer thing...... these are what effect me and these look like going through.
I agree with 17HMR he has said everything I am thinking in a less rantish stlye.
Sorry i need some sugar or something, i am one grumpy cnut today0 -
DDLR, noone's said Declan never did anything for shooting. And not only have I given him credit for what he's done in the past in this forum, I've also helped him on several occasions, and I was one of those who contributed what little they had to FLAG when it was founded (and I had precious little as it was at the time). But what you're seeing in here is the shouting match that follows years of trying to work with the man and being burned time and again, and coming to the conclusion that he did more harm than good by quite a margin.DDLR wrote:Mark and fans, If you cant understand that, and you still think FLAG did notting for Shooting in ireland, There is no hope for you,
Look:
Declan is saying that there's no problem because there's a defined response period. He's ignoring the point that the problem is not the response period itself (even if it is too long), but that there's an overlap of two months between when you can apply for a renewal and how long that renewal process can take. So you apply for your renewal on July 1; the gardai must have an answer back to you by October 1; but what happens between August 1 (when your old licence expires) and September 30 if the Gardai don't get your renewal done? Do you have to hand in your firearm for two months? And what if they decide not to renew during that time? That's the same mechanism used in 1972 to get pistols and fullbores effectively banned. Yes, you can go to the District Court, but not everyone will have the love of solicitors and their fees that Declan seems to. Why not just say that you can apply for a renewal three months ahead of the expiry, which is what they did for club authorisations in the same bill? But Declan doesn't say "there's a point, we'll raise that with them", instead he just says that it's rubbish.I cannot understand your view of the defined response period, it is in the legislation that a licence must be granted or refused in a maximum of three months from the date of application, a refusal can be challenged at the district court level.............Where is the problem?
Now this is just daft. Seriously. The Bill defines target shooting on an unauthorised range to be a criminal offence, with sentences of up to 7 years and fines of up to €25,000. But it doesn't define what target shooting is, nor what a range is. That's just bad law, for a start. And there certainly is nothing in the bill that exempts zeroing your rifle from that offence.The legislation does not need to define a range
This isn't in the Bill. If you get tapped by the Gardai for zeroing your rifle and you try to tell them that we define what a range is, he'll laugh at the notion and so will the courts.we the shooting public clubs and associations do that
And here, Declan is just making stuff up. Firstly, there's no defined way to start a club, just a defined way to have one authorised (and there's no need to have a club authorised if you don't store firearms in it's premesis, by the way). Two different things. But a range is treated seperately by the Bill from a club, even though the Bill doesn't define what a range is.once you set up a formal, formal, location for shooting, offer membership, constitute the club, use the club as a basis for the application of a firearms certificate, then you have a range.
Also, even our own common sense notions tell us that the club and the range are different things.
That's the third time Declan has repeated this (repeating won't make it so!), but he keeps ignoring what was said in the Committee stage:The notion only thought up of on this board, that an individual shooting on private property could or would be defined as a range is rubbish.Mr. Howlin: Is the Minister of State saying that if a farmer in County Wexford wants to provide a temporary range to practice, either with a neighbour or by himself or herself, he or she needs to apply for a licence and have it inspected by an appropriate inspector and comply with health and safety standards?
Mr. B. Lenihan: It applies to pistols and rifles, not shotguns. If he or she is practising with a pistol or rifle, he or she must be on a range.
There you go, that's why people here are worried. If you're practising with a pistol or rifle, you must be on a range. That's the DoJ's stated line on this. If there's confusion, fine - but we need them to state that zeroing doesn't get covered by this. Otherwise, get to a court and what are you going to hold up for the judge (who won't be a shooter) to show him that zeroing isn't covered?
Why is Declan saying something else repeatedly even through this has been pointed out to him? Well, don't ask me, he's right here. Hell, just ask him informally if you want, he knows you.
That's not an untruth, but it is inaccurate and it isn't the whole story either - a) the powers of the range inspector are also laid out in the Bill and that will speak enormously to what the regulations and guidelines will be, and b) Declan has spent a fair bit of bandwidth saying that we didn't have enough weight to define the terms of the Bill and that there were those who wanted it much more restrictive and they were more powerful than us. So why exactly should people think that the same wouldn't apply to the process by which the regulations and guidelines are drawn up? Especially when there's no requirement for the Minister to consult with us (or anyone else) on them like there was with the legislation? And given that in the past, both the NARGC and FLAG have publicly accused the Minister of lying to the Dail in saying that he was talking to them while he didn't, why does Declan think that the Minister would suddenly turn around after this bill is passed (giving the Minister far more power in this area) and let Declan or anyone else dictate the guidelines to him?The role of the range inspector is laid out in the legislation, the practical application of this will be defined in the regulation and the guidelines.
And why doesn't he want to just answer on that? Why continually bluster and insult those who question this?
And who exactly was asking for perfection?who said it would be perfect!
There are serious problems with this Bill. We point them out and Declan, instead of taking a suggestion, has spent a lot of time and effort saying that they're rubbish and that all is fine. Thing is, apart from Declan's own description of what he does being to listen to shooters and represent them (which he's not doing), there's the point that one of the biggest problems in running clubs or associations is that the average shooter won't complain or even comment most of the time. You have to actually ask them what they think if you want to know how things could be run better - but their not complaining isn't always a sign that something's okay, it's just that we don't complain much in Ireland. Here, however, you have shooters actually taking an interest, discussing a problem and pointing it out - and all we're seeing in return is derision and threats? That's not right.
A 3 year licence is a kind of progress - but it's not much and certainly not enough for us all to dance for joy at, especially when it comes attached to the huge number of new hoops you have to jump through to get one. All it really means is that instead of paying €40 in August every year, we'll pay €120 every three years. The way that the licence renewal date is now from the date of issue is a good step, but the big step we wanted to see here was to licence the man and not the gun, and that wasn't achieved.So you do not think a three year licence is progress
Where in the Bill is this from? The Bill definitely says the Minister or Commissioner can issue guidelines, yes, but that's to the issuing person (ie the superintendents). Not to us. And not about how to get a licence, but on how this legislation is to be enforced. The Bill doesn't even require that those guidelines be published for the public domain.Not the least the requirement to provide written guidelines that are clear and transparent to all persons wishing to know anything about the firearms application process is not progress.
And this was because of work done via the NARGC. Declan's not taking credit for it, but he's putting it in there and not giving credit for it, hoping you'll associate him with it. That's just sneaky. It's also ignoring the threat to this state of affairs that the "restricted firearm" parts of this Bill pose. Yes, we got stuff back; but this Bill is the real test - can we hold onto the stuff we've gotten?Another point that may have eluded you, up to 1993, we had access only to .22 rifles and shotguns, with deer stalkers only having access to .22-250. In recent years we have regained access to all firearms, pistols, Revolvers, higher calibre rifles.
No time to continue the debate. Which he first said in one of his first posts here last year. And he has no time to debate, but plenty of time to threaten me (and the others he's done this to) with solicitors without mentioning what the charges will be.What really do you think we are being denied. Don't answer please because I do not have the time to continue the debate.
Sorry DDLR, I don't buy any of that. It's spin and bullying, pure and simple. And neither's gotten any more palatable since the days when we were all standing in the playground watching some bully beat up on the smaller kid. And we see more than enough of that from the DoJ on a day-to-day basis, I for one don't think we need to see it from someone who is supposedly working on all our behalves...0 -
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Duuno the history between the main players here but its seems to me that we have two approaches:
Flag: Don't mind what published, its all being sorted out for you behind the scenes, don't muddy the waters by asking questions and emailing politicians.
Sparks: Look at the published documentation. See for yourself the flaws. Let's question them now before its passed into legislation.
I appreciate the sad reality that an awful lot is done in this country behind the scenes with a nudge and a wink.... however, I don't know Flag personally and am not inclined to throw a whole lot of trust behind people I don't know that take the approach of: trust me and don't ask questions, I'm looking after your interests.
I am therefore much more inclined to take Sparks point of view, particularly as he is addressing those points in this new law that effect me (and I'm sure most shooters). And he's doing it out in the open with the only material we know to be true, the published documentation.
And I think dumping this particular argument in the Sandbox trivialises the discussion on this topic. Much as there appears to be a degree of personal attack in some of the points, a lot of it is relevant to the original topic and I believe it should have been left there.0 -
17HMR wrote:Duuno the history between the main players here but its seems to me that we have two approaches:
Flag: Don't mind what published, its all being sorted out for you behind the scenes, don't muddy the waters by asking questions and emailing politicians.
Sparks: Look at the published documentation. See for yourself the flaws. Let's question them now before its passed into legislation.
I appreciate the sad reality that an awful lot is done in this country behind the scenes with a nudge and a wink.... however, I don't know Flag personally and am not inclined to throw a whole lot of trust behind people I don't know that take the approach of: trust me and don't ask questions, I'm looking after your interests.
I am therefore much more inclined to take Sparks point of view, particularly as he is addressing those points in this new law that effect me (and I'm sure most shooters). And he's doing it out in the open with the only material we know to be true, the published documentation.
And I think dumping this particular argument in the Sandbox trivialises the discussion on this topic. Much as there appears to be a degree of personal attack in some of the points, a lot of it is relevant to the original topic and I believe it should have been left there.
17HMR: This is not a question of trust, from your response it appears that you know Sparks because you trust him.
The fundamental point that I make is that a public forum is not the arena to air our difficulties, time and time again I have posted the FLAG e-mail and invited anyone with queries to contact me directly, anyone who has, has had an appropriate response.
From an information point of view, I started meetings back in 1995 with the Gardai and DOJ when no one else was. I attach the proposals that were made to the DOJ as far back as April 1995. Over the years I continued that dialogue through great difficulty and with great of personal and family time dedicated to moving the process forward.
I have a great deal of experience in dealing with the Senior Gardai and Senior Officials of DOJ, right up to the minister. In the 10 years that I have been Dealing with the various Departments there has been significant change and each time it is like going back to the starting, line, I have met with more than 8 Principal Officers in DOJ and a similar number of Detective Chief Supers and Assistant Commissioners in the Gardai, the first Assistant Commissioner I met with was Noel Conroy the present Commissioner.
Things do not happen over night and certainly complex changes do not happen to firearms legislation by asking questions or agitating local representative with complex questions that are difficult for the most knowledgeable to answer.
The present firearms amendments are through committee stage, they are so far advanced that the Green Paper is probably printed. What is being proposed by some people on the boards now is that individuals go and harras their local representatives, to what end it will not effect change.
I have always held the view that we need cohesive representation, a good club structure for those wishing to be in a club, stronger shooting associations by membership of that association by all the clubs, if you are a hunter you should be in the NARGC who are well in a position to represent their members.
Politicians and government departments pay no attention to individuals, unless they seek redress in the high court. Strength is in a united front.
So why do I not answer questions on the boards, it is not the appropriate forum.
Now lets look at my lack of relationship with Mark (Sparks), he was a member of the NTSA at one point, because of many reasons they chose to hold an EGM to eject him from the Association, they did, democratically and as I understand it he has never managed to get back in.
While Mark shows significant knowledge and his intentions are in the right place, no one can make a reasonable point without being shot down, he is an individual with no standing and is encouraging people to do things that will get the shooting community nowhere.
On the other hand, I am in the club structure since 1980, been a serving officer on the NRPAI (now SSAI) from 1995 to 2005, I have represented the NRPAI at Gardai and Government level since 1995, I have presented at the World Forum on the Future of Shooting Sports, was responsible for NRA sponsorship of Air Rifle Coaching and introduction to the National Rehabilitation Hospital in Dun Laoighre. I represented the NRPAI on the Firearms Legislative Review Group in 1998. Short summary, no wonder I am nearly divorced.
So as they Say in the Life of Brian, what did the Romans ever do for us!
Look a public forum is no place to air dirty washing, I am not saying things need to be done behind closed doors, I am saying there is a mechanism to have your position appropriately represented and the boards is not that area.
The Firearms Amendments currently in train, need a lot of further work, but no one will change what is in them at this point, join a club, association or what ever you want but stop the wasted dialogue on the boards.0 -
TBH Declan, i dont know why you go out of your way to explain to stupid people" Yes STUPID ppl that only want to waste time " The real shooters of IRELAND, know your doing a great job,
and on a Personal note, Mark WTF dude, i dont know what/who you think you are sometime, over the years iv been reading the BS you come out with about FLAG! Funny thing is your not a stupid person, on other topics you seem to help ppl with litle things, BUT when it comes to FLAG/Declan you go OUT of your way to undermind him and his work, BIg duel he was going to take legal action on you, From what iv heard your lucky it wasnt anything more,
As for the boards, Declan is so right, this is not a place to air out all our dirty stuff!, God knows whos reading them, FLAG/Declan has posted his email adress so many times, I personaly have sent him a few emails and he always gets back to me info tho he is worked off his feet, I dont think people really seem to understand the bloke has spent best part of his life fighting for the GUN LAWS here in ireland, He puts his personal/Family time on hold to do this,
Just really sick of people talking BS about stuff they dont know anything about,
If your going to try undermine someone, Try have something to back up what your saying, I belive everyone is still waiting on a certain Document,
Well its been a lone night im off to bed now! Then im going to go down the Club and shoot some targets! with my pistols GG0 -
Declan, would you care to clarify that? Are you saying that if 17 knew me that he or she wouldn't trust me?FLAG wrote:17HMR: This is not a question of trust, from your response it appears that you know Sparks because you trust him.
And on that point we differ fundamentally. I believe, and always have, that what we do is so legitimate, so positive, that there is no valid reason to conceal it. There sure as hell isn't any valid reason to conceal what the associations do from the members of the associations, who pay for it all in the first place I'll remind you. If you think I've no supporting evidence, I invite you to look at the CPSA in the UK, who even post the minutes of their committee meetings on the web. Or the NRA, whose chairman personally writes a column for a monthly publication to try to keep the membership informed. And those bodies are far larger than any of ours, and with the exception of the ICPSA, are also more successful.The fundamental point that I make is that a public forum is not the arena to air our difficulties
Do I need to post your email response to me again? The one where you said you wouldn't put me on the FLAG mailing list or send me NRPAI press releases? Not, I'll remind you, an email sent from Declan to Mark, but an email sent from the PRO of the NRPAI to the PRO of the NTSA, where what you did was basicly to tell a member federation that it wasn't entitled to information or to ask questions of the NRPAI.time and time again I have posted the FLAG e-mail and invited anyone with queries to contact me directly, anyone who has, has had an appropriate response.
What utter rubbish. We should just sit quietly and not protest? I've heard that line before, in the UK before the pistol ban.The present firearms amendments are through committee stage, they are so far advanced that the Green Paper is probably printed. What is being proposed by some people on the boards now is that individuals go and harras their local representatives, to what end it will not effect change.
Let's take one example of how it could help, shall we? The whole part of it being a criminal offense to engage in target shooting on a shooting range, while "target shooting" and "shooting range" remain undefined. What good will pointing this out do? Well, the Minister has already stated in Committee that he intends to bring forward an amendment specifically dealing with definitions at the Report stage. Point out the flaw and that "target shooting", "zeroing" and "shooting range" need to be defined, and offer suggested definitions. That's one possibility. I'm not daft enough to think that he'll take it as gospel, but given the cost of a court case to challange it in a year's time, I'd rather make the effort now than not.
Indeed? I remember the first contact I ever had with you Declan. I wrote an informal email to you (with the support of the NTSA) to start talking about bringing the various associations closer together.I have always held the view that we need cohesive representation
Your response was an official letter to the Irish Sports Council making out that we hadn't a clue what was going on and which had a negative effect on us in their eyes. How exactly was that productive? How did it move us towards cohesive representation? And that was the first time we had contact.
And screw those who didn't? As seems to have happened now, because with the CJB, membership of a shooting club for three years will be mandatory for a target shooting licence. So what do you do if the nearest club is a hundred miles away and you just want to plink? Personally, I think the club structure is the best route, but I know that there will be cases where, for good reasons, shooters won't be able to take it.a good club structure for those wishing to be in a club
So what are your thoughts on the NARGC opening its doors to target shooters then? (As of today, the NARGC will accept target shooting clubs as members and will cover them for insurance via their compensation fund). Or their working with Fine Gael to draft a Firearms Bill? Or do you think that "cohesive representation" means that we stick together in our little group under your lead and anyone else can do whatever they want?if you are a hunter you should be in the NARGC who are well in a position to represent their members.
If politicians and government departments pay no attention to individuals, what muckin' use are you then?Politicians and government departments pay no attention to individuals, unless they seek redress in the high court. Strength is in a united front.
And please don't tell me that "united front" crap Declan, I've seen first-hand how fast it gets dropped by those who seem to shout loudest about it.
Besides which, the numbers don't add up. We have an electorate of about 3 million and a total number of shooters of about 180,000 - including farmers, hunters and target shooters. If *every* last one of them voted as a single block, we'd have 6% of the vote; but they don't. For a start, the biggest shooting body in the country is the NARGC and they only have 20,000 people - that's two thirds of a percent of the vote. Yeah, I can see the Minister quaking in his boots at the thought of that massed vote.
Thing you never did get about this Declan, is that we effectively exist on sufferance. We don't have a right to keep and bear arms. And running about demanding stuff as if we had, that won't get us anything but a lot more regulations to get the boot in. Which is pretty much what we have now. We need that adversarial relationship you've cultivated with the DoJ like we need a hole in the head.
No, it's because you know the answers wouldn't make you a popular chap.So why do I not answer questions on the boards, it is not the appropriate forum.
1. You threatened them with legal action to force the EGM.Now lets look at my lack of relationship with Mark (Sparks), he was a member of the NTSA at one point, because of many reasons they chose to hold an EGM to eject him from the Association, they did, democratically and as I understand it he has never managed to get back in.
2. I was offered the post of PRO at the next AGM a few months later and turned it down.
I'd say that's wrong. Make a reasonable point and we'll see how it goes.no one can make a reasonable point without being shot down
If we're going to do this, can I just go get a measuring tape? It'd be faster all round...On the other hand, I am in the club structure since 1980
And signed the NRPAI up to a few bodies without consultation with anyone as I recall. And basicly operated on your own with no reporting or consultation for at least 18 months on one occasion.I have represented the NRPAI at Gardai and Government level since 1995, I have presented at the World Forum on the Future of Shooting Sports,
Not soley responsible. Credit where it's due, Declan.was responsible for NRA sponsorship of Air Rifle Coaching and introduction to the National Rehabilitation Hospital in Dun Laoighre.
Short summary indeed. And yet, several inaccuracies. In less than one paragraph. And you left out all the negative things, like the undermining of the NTSA, the outright hostility you brought to the table more than once, the undermining of the carding grant review and the subsequent loss of carding status for all the non-olympic disciplines (which ironically, the NTSA was trying to avoid and you, a non-olympic shooter, triggered), and a half-dozen other things we've covered in this forum.Short summary, no wonder I am nearly divorced.
Especially when you're the one who soiled it in the first place, eh?Look a public forum is no place to air dirty washing
Actually, you are.I am not saying things need to be done behind closed doors
Except that you have already told several people you won't represent them. And even that document you linked to doesn't represent others - example, since when are the majority of air pistols semiautomatics?I am saying there is a mechanism to have your position appropriately represented and the boards is not that area.
In other words, sit down, shut up and you know best, right?The Firearms Amendments currently in train, need a lot of further work, but no one will change what is in them at this point, join a club, association or what ever you want but stop the wasted dialogue on the boards.
Rubbish. And you're an odd fish to be asking that shooters, who have little enough political support as it stands, sit there and shut up rather than talking to their representatives and asking questions.0 -
Such as? Go on DDLR, tell us what you heard.DDLR wrote:BIg duel he was going to take legal action on you, From what iv heard your lucky it wasnt anything more,
So when are you going to have the Irish Shooters Digest closed down then?As for the boards, Declan is so right, this is not a place to air out all our dirty stuff!, God knows whos reading them
We know the Gardai read that, for a start.
You and me both. Which is why I don't let Declan away with posting something that's wrong without comment in here.Just really sick of people talking BS about stuff they dont know anything about,
Yes, we are. However, we're not waiting on the several other documents I've put up here on every other point I've raised.If your going to try undermine someone, Try have something to back up what your saying, I belive everyone is still waiting on a certain Document,
Have fun. Then go earn some more money, to pay for FLAG's legal fund when we try to fix the problems we have in the Bill via court challanges (and if you've not learnt the lesson from the CJB, let me restate it - a decade of court challanges just got thrown out with one bill) instead of trying to fix the problems now while it's still relatively cheap to do so.Well its been a lone night im off to bed now! Then im going to go down the Club and shoot some targets! with my pistols GG0 -
Hay mark, last post was after a long night, that wasnt aimed at you personaly, It was aimed at everyone that fits in the box,
I know what your talking about and i agree to a point, But because of the bad blood between you and Delcan i cant see something good coming from this if he keeps up this way, Yes we all know that the power that be read the boards and the SDMag, We cant stop them but we can stop giving them more ammo as such to use over us!
only out of bed lol need some coffee!
anyways at the end of the day i think we are al after the same thing " in a way " To keep our firearms so we can keep doing the sports we love!
be back tomorrow take care!0 -
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Ya see the problem I have with FLAG putting forward suggestions to the DoJ is that they don't represent me. For example I would like to own a pistol, single shot action would do me, don't even want a semi auto. Reason for owning it would be to finish off deer if they don't die with the first shot.
but FLAG made the follwing proposal in 1995We would suggest that strict conditions be attached to the granting of a firearms certificate for pistols.
1) The applicant should be a member of a recognised target shooting club.
2) The applicant should have completed a period of probationary membership to the satisfaction of the club officials, thus ensuring a genuine interest in target shooting. During this probationary period it is strongly recommended that the prospective member should attend a safety course run by the club.
3) The club in question would provide a letter stating points 1 and 2. There should be a clear understanding that should the member leave the club for any reason that this fact would be communicated to the Garda by letter.
4) The safety and security of all firearms should be the sole responsibility of the person who holds the firearms certificate. Firearms and ammunition when not in use should be stored securely in an approved steel gun safe, preferably bolted to an external wall, this should be inspected before the granting of a licence.
5) Each club associated with the NRPAI would run compulsory safety courses for its new members. Strict safety regulations are enforced on all ranges, should any member be seen to act in an unsafe manner they will be asked to leave the range.
EDIT: I have no problem with being strict and safe.
Thats why i will continue to e mail local government, the Minister McDowell himself and anyone else who will listen.0 -
You do understand mate, that if FLAG didnt do that there is a good chance we wouldnt have pistols back in ireland!! I for one am greatfull to FLAG,0
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DDLR, you do understand that the case whose favorable judgement immediately preceded the dropping of the pistol ban by the Gardai wasn't taken by FLAG, but by the NARGC and Frank Brophy, and that Frank has publicly stated (by a letter to the Shooters Digest) that he's pretty sick of Declan claiming credit for the return of pistols?0
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Don't know Sparks anymore than I know Flag....
Which is the point I was making. Here are two individuals, neither of whom are know to me, one is all for openness and discussion and the other for, well...the opposite (one to one off forum emails does not constitute openness and discussion as there's no one to challenge or support what is being put forward).
I don't understand how discussing published government documentation constitutes washing dirty laundry in public. Sure, I get that the personal stuff between Flag and Sparks sure be kept between them, however, where someone posts material that someone else disagrees with then, within the rules of the forum, they should be allowed reply - otherwise, what is the point of a forum in the first place ?
And DDLR - guess I mustn't be a "real shooter" by your definition.
Ah well... I'll just have to keep on pretending........:)0 -
DDLR wrote:You do understand mate, that if FLAG didnt do that there is a good chance we wouldnt have pistols back in ireland!! I for one am greatfull to FLAG,
its law in germany to carry a side arm when hunting deer for the exact reason i stated above. Its a practical reason to own a pistol. Beforehand you'll have to get licensed for a centre fire rifle, and a deer hunting licesnse both of which are very tough on their own to get.0 -
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Vegeta wrote:its law in germany to carry a side arm when hunting deer for the exact reason i stated above. Its a practical reason to own a pistol. Beforehand you'll have to get licensed for a centre fire rifle, and a deer hunting licesnse both of which are very tough on their own to get.
Yes mate i understand that and your right to want a pistol for that reson but i the point i was trying to make was, What had to be done was done to get pistols back now that they are back we can work on getting things changed around!
End of the day, Iv notting to give out about, I was in need once NO one and i asked everyone to help me all said no or couldnt "same thing" apart from Declan,
He went out of his way, To help me.
BTW i wasnt a member of FLAG at the time, i only got my first Shotgun this going back a few year, when i only started shooting,
I think we all want the same thing, To keep our firearms, and be able to hunt or Sport shooting and get IRELAND some gold around the world! without having to bring the state to court everytime you want to do something, IMHO the boards is the wrong place to talk about this, Should hold public meeting for every shooter in ireland that whats to come and clear some **** up, Alot of the Groups are trying to undermine each other and not fighting on same team becuase we all want same thing as i said befor!
I dont know about you lot but it has cost me over 25000 euro "yes 25k" over last year to get my house up to saftly specs so i could get my pistols and eqt so i could go out and train and one day get a top3 world rank in IPSC for ireland! be IRELANDS first IPSC/3gun World Champion!
and i wont be happy if my pistols and rilfes get took off me because some people WHO ARE MENT TO BE FIGHTING ON BEHAVE of shooters in ireland were trying to undermine each other and not do the job at hand!!
PS:: befor any of you start saying, No im not rich im far from it i owe the bank that 25k and il be paying it back for next five year!0 -
Sparks wrote:DDLR, you do understand that the case whose favorable judgement immediately preceded the dropping of the pistol ban by the Gardai wasn't taken by FLAG, but by the NARGC and Frank Brophy, and that Frank has publicly stated (by a letter to the Shooters Digest) that he's pretty sick of Declan claiming credit for the return of pistols?
Dude! Declan NEVER said anywere HE/FLAG got pistols back!
I speak for myself, I dont even know Declan bar the time he helped me!
But FLAG had a part to play! and FLAG are the only ones that did help me!
Rest of the so called PARTYs for the people turned there back on me!0 -
Just out of curiosity - 25k??
Did you build a strongroom or something?0 -
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That's the thing DDLR i'd be all praise for FLAG aswell if I were in your position. You got what you wanted in the CJB
I don't do any formal target shooting whereas you do. I, as a hunter will not be able to zero my own rifle on my own land after this legislation comes through.
I live in Clare and the closest full bore rifle range is in Offaly or Kerry. An awful long drive and extra expense every year to fire 6-10 shots, which may be undone by a big pothole on the way home.
Now FLAG says this is nonsense and I will be able but the reality is that everything else (wording of the Bill itself, and Mr. Howlin asking Mr. Lenihan this exact question) says other wise. To be told that my fears are crazy rantings is very frustrating as I may have to give up deer shooting and rifle shooting altogether just to stay on the right side of the law.
Your shooting life will probably improve as a result of this bill, mine will definitely be more inconvient if things stay the way they are.
For you or FLAG to say I am whining about nothing is very annoying. I have real concerns. I am not arguing for the sake of a fight, the evidence is there to support my claims, minutes from meetings where the question was put to Mr. Lenihan and the bill itself. So far FLAG has shown no evidence of his point of view.
How would you feel if handguns were banned in the morning and somebody told you to shut up, you now have a 3 year license, what are you complaining about. I bet you would not be happy after making an investment of 25,000.
FLAG worked for you but calls me a moaner because I raise concerns on a forum. I just hope you can see why I am concerned. You don't have to agree with my arguement just acknowledge its a valid arguement.
Also what is worng with talking about this here. Honestly are the powers that be going to log on to boards and go, Jesus they are having an arguement about how sh1te the new CJB is. What info can they use to harm us.0
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