The England Squad

WhiteWashMan

mike65 wrote:

Crouch has a first touch!

Mike.

touch of a rapist....

Jivin Turkey wrote:

It is quite useful from time to time.

But I'll be sure to greet any predictions you make in the future with such a mature and insightful response.

hopfully next time you wont bother telling me you dont agree with me.

it will save me of 3 seconds of boredom in my life.

although, technically speaking i didnt make any predictions. i gave my opinion that crouch is shít. i still stand by it.

mike65

Stop trolling WWM, you can belive what you want.

Mike.

Jivin Turkey

WhiteWashMan wrote:

hopfully next time you wont bother telling me you dont agree with me.

it will save me of 3 seconds of boredom in my life.

although, technically speaking i didnt make any predictions. i gave my opinion that crouch is shít. i still stand by it.

Nah I'm sure you hope I do tell you I disagree with you because I've seen you go around just looking to get into arguments for the sake of it, regardless of whether or not you actually believe the point you are arguing.

As regards Crouch, I've seen him probably close to 30 times this season. He is far from ****, and definitely not a one trick pony. Liverpool rarely play long balls up to him just so he can flick them on, in fact most of the time he takes any balls played up to him down, before passing it off on the deck. He has touch bordering on the sublime. I have never seen a player being able to control balls played to him at all levels with such ease.

I have a feeling you will disagree with me though for the sake of it, but I also have a feeling that the amount of full games you have seen the lad play could be counted on one hand, so I don't really value or care what you think of him.

Sure you probably know more than Rafa Benitez anyway

Paul Tergat

Jivin Turkey wrote:

He has touch bordering on the sublime. I have never seen a player being able to control balls played to him at all levels with such ease.

I'm not so sure about this now!

Jivin Turkey

p_larkin99 wrote:

I'm not so sure about this now!

Maybe I was a bit overzealous with the "bordering on the sublime" but the lad has quality control. It's got to the stage that I would never expect the ball to be lost when I see it going to him, regardless of how it is played to him.

When Crouch first signed for Liverpool I was not sure how he would do or fit in and only expected him to be a bit part player. In his first season he has more than convinced me that he was a bargain at £7M.

mike65

There was a moment in one of the friendlies last year which summed Crouch up, where he received a pass from deep turned it and set Gerrard free
to shoot. Sounds like nothing but he had two opposition players in close attendance and did it in the blink of an eye. If he plays then Sven must pick Gerrard (or Cole) for an advanced 'free' role.

Mike.

Paul Tergat

Jivin Turkey wrote:

When Crouch first signed for Liverpool I was not sure how he would do or fit in and only expected him to be a bit part player. In his first season he has more than convinced me that he was a bargain at £7M.

I think he's more suited to the way that Liverpool play rather than England...but he may be useful if we can get Lampard and Gerrard making runs beyond him and feeding off his, how do i put it, sublime lay-offs

Guy:Incognito

p_larkin99 wrote:

So which one of the 2 of the VERY BEST midfielders in the world do you drop??

The only solution, as i suggested before, is to play a 4-5-1, with both playing and carrick holding

If you had the 5 best strikers in the world all haveing just scored 40 goals in a season, would you play with 5 strikers?

While they might, individually be among the best in the world, together they dont make up the best midfield airing ENgland could produce. I'll say it again, the best 11 ondividual players do not nessecarily make th ebest team. Lampard playes so well for Chelsea because of Makalele, he does all lampards donkey work. He's the labourer to Lampards brickie.

homerjay2005 wrote:

maybe walcott could be a total surprise and be a sensation like owen in 98 and roonry in 2004.

They both came in off the back of very successfull seasons. Walcott is coming in off they back of being a good trainer.

p_larkin99 wrote:

i really hope crouch doesnt feature in the world cup, he suits the way liverpool play but i don't like the thought of the national team looking to hoof the ball up to a target man, not the way we play football...we have a creative midfield capable of feeding strikers like owen/rooney/bent/defoe etc without the need for playing long ball to crouch football.

If the useless waster could head a ball he'd be great in a team with good wingers.

Paul Tergat

Stekelly wrote:

If you had the 5 best strikers in the world all haveing just scored 40 goals in a season, would you play with 5 strikers?

obviously not, but awful example to use!

it's not feasible to start a game with 5 strikers whereas startin with 2 or even 3 midfielders (allowing BOTH to play) is definitely possible. I would not drop either Lampard or Gerrard in a 4 man midfield!

Stekelly wrote:

While they might, individually be among the best in the world, together they dont make up the best midfield airing ENgland could produce. I'll say it again, the best 11 ondividual players do not nessecarily make th ebest team. Lampard playes so well for Chelsea because of Makalele, he does all lampards donkey work. He's the labourer to Lampards brickie.

That's why im suggesting playing 4-5-1, like Chelsea do, so the brickie can be Carrick! Lampard is used to the formation and Gerrard can fit into any formation IMO.

Guy:Incognito

p_larkin99 wrote:

That's why im suggesting playing 4-5-1, like Chelsea do, so the brickie can be Carrick! Lampard is used to the formation and Gerrard can fit into any formation IMO.

The problem with that is that there isnt really a player there capable of playing effectivly up front on his own.

Jivin Turkey

Stekelly wrote:

The problem with that is that there isnt really a player there capable of playing effectivly up front on his own.

Crouch? Has he not done the same thing for Liverpool on many occassions this year?

Paul Tergat

Owen can play that role, he's capable of holding up balls that are fed into him and letting runners play off him....ok he's not the biggest or strongest but he can work the channels and has good link up play.....plus in that type of formation it's likely that either Gerrard/Lampard will play just off him!

Necronomicon

Well since I'm so late entering the discussion I'm sure anything I would've said has been said already. If I was English I would be pretty annoyed. Actually, more annoyed if I was Darren Bent. To be pipped to the post after scoring 22 (was it?) goals, by a 17-year old who hasn't even made a Premiership appearance yet would really, really make me mad.
I'm surprised he's gone with only 4 strikers given that 2 of them have fitness question marks over them. Then again this is Sven, so....not that surprised!

Guy:Incognito

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Crouch? Has he not done the same thing for Liverpool on many occassions this year?

Crouch always has someone playing in behind him like rooney would have been doing. Kewell, Gerrard, Luis Garcia have all played in there.

Jivin Turkey

Stekelly wrote:

Crouch always has someone playing in behind him like rooney would have been doing. Kewell, Gerrard, Luis Garcia have all played in there.

Could Gerrard not do the same for England?

Could Lampard not do it even better?

Could Cole not do it?

Owen?

Guy:Incognito

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Could Gerrard not do the same for England?

Could Lampard not do it even better?

Could Cole not do it?

Owen?

Then its not a 4-5-1 is it. We're back to 4-4-2 than and it's not a Gerrard/Lampard midfield pair, which I said was'nt the best in the first place.

Paul Tergat

Stekelly wrote:

Then its not a 4-5-1 is it

there are different variations of this formation, e.g. like chelsea play with 2 v attcking wingers almost playing off the strikers, or where a player plays off the forward (like utd play, rooney off say saha or van nistelrooy)

Jivin Turkey

Stekelly wrote:

Then its not a 4-5-1 is it. We're back to 4-4-2 than and it's not a Gerrard/Lampard midfield pair, which I said was'nt the best in the first place.

Why not? If Owen plays? Owen could play on the right, sure Erickson is known to fling Beckham into the infamous holding role.

The other three are midfielders and all fit in perfectly to a 4-5-1.

mike65

Fer petes sake

---

Goalie
Defender-defender-defender-defender

---

Holding
Beckham

---

Lampard

---

Cole

---

Gerrard

---

Crouch!

or variations of

---

Goalie
----CB----CB----CB

---

Holding
WR

---

CM

---

WL

---

Hole

---

Owen--Crouch


Mike.

growler

Jivin Turkey wrote:

As regards Crouch, I've seen him probably close to 30 times this season. He is far from ****, and definitely not a one trick pony. Liverpool rarely play long balls up to him just so he can flick them on, in fact most of the time he takes any balls played up to him down, before passing it off on the deck. He has touch bordering on the sublime. I have never seen a player being able to control balls played to him at all levels with such ease.

I respect your loyalty to your team but to suggest Crouch is a worthy inclusion in a world cup squad seems a bit red-tinted glasses to me. Personally I've seen crouch play many times and I simply don't rate him as a world class striker.

Sven not having ever seen Walcott play doesn't surprise me too much, the man gives a very good impression of being in the job in order to maximise his personal wealth/ fame / libido for as long as possible. To take a gamble on him and not to take SWP seems rather short sighted.

Paul Tergat

Spot on Mike

mike65

Crouch is'nt a world class striker - he is a very good foward.

Mike.

Jivin Turkey

growler wrote:

I respect your loyalty to your team but to suggest Crouch is a worthy inclusion in a world cup squad seems a bit red-tinted glasses to me. Personally I've seen crouch play many times and I simply don't rate him as a world class striker.

Personally I do not think my opinion of Crouch is solely down to my club loyalty. Crouch is a bloody good player. I'm sure Gerrard loves playing with him, he has brought the best out of Gerrard. He brings far more to a team than just the odd goal, and shouldn't be judged on his goal return.

He definitely deserves to be in there. England are hardly swamped with incredible options up front. Owen, Walcott, Defoe, Vassell and Johnsen are all very similar players why would you take more than two of them?

growler wrote:

Sven not having ever seen Walcott play doesn't surprise me too much, the man gives a very good impression of being in the job in order to maximise his personal wealth/ fame / libido for as long as possible. To take a gamble on him and not to take SWP seems rather short sighted.

I find it very ironic that you should accuse me of letting my club loyalties dictate my opinion yet you want SWP included at the expense of Walcott? So what are you suggesting? Take three strikers, two of whom are not fit?

SWP has started just ten league games this year. Lennon (who took his place) has been on fire recently. TBH I reckon it was a very close call between them, I personally may have taken SWP but I can see why SGE plumped for Lennon.

Paul Tergat

Front page of Sun about Walcott, the disbelief.....Sven said he only decided this morning to pick him....hmmmmm

all papers focusing on Walcott, the media will be all over Sven from now on...if it works he's a hero and if it doesn't he's and idiot!

WhiteWashMan

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I find it very ironic that you should accuse me of letting my club loyalties dictate my opinion yet you want SWP included at the expense of Walcott? So what are you suggesting? Take three strikers, two of whom are not fit?.

how about take strikers that are scoring regularly and are fit.

well, thats 4 out of 4 strikers that SGE has picked that shouldnt go...

Kinetic^

SGE doesn't give a toss, he's out of there after the WC anyway.

Daemonic

mike65 wrote:

Crouch is'nt a world class striker - he is a very good foward.

Mike.

Crouch is very good and i think if he was about 4 or 5 inches shorter he would get a lot more respect for his first touch and ability to lay the ball off and play others in. People just seem to find it hard to see past the fact that he hasn't got a typical footballer physique.
The fact the Liverpool supporters actually boo'ed Benitez for sub'ing him instead of Morientes says a lot about his contribution during games.

Jivin Turkey

WhiteWashMan wrote:

how about take strikers that are scoring regularly and are fit.

well, thats 4 out of 4 strikers that SGE has picked that shouldnt go...

Only two English strikers have scored more than 10 PL goals this year and are fit. So would you only take two strikers seeing as that is all that meet your criteria?

I personally would have brought Bent instead of Walcott. Harewood is a similar player to Bent and would not have brought him if I were bringing Bent.

I still think Crouch is deserving of his place as he brings more to a team than just goals. Owen will be fit by the time the WC starts.

Paul Tergat

Daemonic wrote:

The fact the Liverpool supporters actually boo'ed Benitez for sub'ing him instead of Morientes says a lot about his contribution during games.

or maybe more for the way morientes has been playing?

Daemonic

p_larkin99 wrote:

or maybe more for the way morientes has been playing?

True, but if Crouch was as bad as many of the opinions on here would have you believe then they wouldn't have been that bothered.
Although, if Crouch were a Charlton player and Bent a Liverpool player i think Bent would have been guaranteed a place.

Guy:Incognito

Rafa shoudl have use his "one free pick" card to get Robbie into the squad. (If Wneger gets one, why doesnt rafa?)

Paul Tergat

Stekelly wrote:

Rafa shoudl have use his "one free pick" card to get Robbie into the squad. (If Wneger gets one, why doesnt rafa?)

Please tell me you are joking now mate?

growler

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I find it very ironic that you should accuse me of letting my club loyalties dictate my opinion yet you want SWP included at the expense of Walcott? So what are you suggesting? Take three strikers, two of whom are not fit?

.

Was waiting for that ! I think that SWP has a lot of problems in the PL with his lack of physical presence, in the world cup with less liberal refereeing ... he has the ability to change a game. SWP also played in the england friendlies as did Defoe, both scored, both get left behind... great management. :rolleyes:

There aren't many outside of liverpool fandom who think crouch is a decent striker, I'm with them.

There are better choices out there, Bent, Defoe, johnson as mentioned.

With the current set up, if Crouch plays up front on his own, which seems likely, then England will seriously struggle imho to score from open play, I think he's too easy to defend against when you're up against some serious opposition.

Guy:Incognito

p_larkin99 wrote:

Please tell me you are joking now mate?

About gettign a free pick or robbie? The free pick thing was a dig at Sven. It just seems like walcott got picked cos wenger met sven and went "ah go on" for a while.

If walcott can get in based on training, then robbie would have to be in with a shout. He's not in the top 4 england strikers at the minute but on virtue of the fact that he gets his game and scores goals in the pl, he's infinitly higher on the list than walcott. So if the selection was as random as it seems, he has as good a chance as anyone.

As for hargreaves, wtf? Unless he's going to be a starter whats the point? If your a goal down in the closeing stagesyour hardly going to bring him on with a view to gettign a leveller. Just dotn see the point of him in the squad. Another striker would have been the way forward there.

Vokes

p_larkin99 wrote:

Please tell me you are joking now mate?

Seems reasonable.

Wenger gets Dein to get the FA to get Sven to pick Walcott so he takes the World Cup by storm when he scores 10 goals.

And all the while Henry is sold to Barca but the supporters forgive Wenger cos they now have the new Rooney (Walcott)

I love conspiracies

Paul Tergat

No, Fowler should not have a chance of getting into the England squad!

Walcott has seemingly been picked as he is an unknown, we know what we would get from Fowler and it's not good enough at this level IMO

Guy:Incognito

p_larkin99 wrote:

No, Fowler should not have a chance of getting into the England squad!

Walcott has seemingly been picked as he is an unknown, we know what we would get from Fowler and it's not good enough at this level IMO

Goals? I thought thats what the point was. The world cup is not a series of friendlies you use to blood new players it's a tournament that the best countries showcase their best players ( and gary breen). You dotn see forula 1 teams going down to the go kart track in santry and picking a 17 year old to be their driver for the season.

Paul Tergat

Stekelly wrote:

Goals? I thought thats what the point was. The world cup is not a series of friendlies you use to blood new players it's a tournament that the best countries showcase their best players .

The point being Fowler won't score at this level and is certainly not one of England's best players!

Stekelly wrote:

You dotn see forula 1 teams going down to the go kart track in santry and picking a 17 year old to be their driver for the season.[/B]

Totally comparable!?

Guy:Incognito

p_larkin99 wrote:

The point being Fowler won't score at this level and is certainly not one of England's best players!

And Walcott is?
If you say yes, whats it based on? Half a season Vs Championship players? Tell that to the Brazilians, Germans, Argentinians, Italians, Spanish, Dutch etc.

p_larkin99 wrote:

Totally comparable!?

I think so, seeing as were picking people who have never competed at that level (or anywhere remotley near it) If he had picked one of the Liverpool youth cup winning team, would you have been fine with that?

Paul Tergat

Stekelly wrote:

And Walcott is?
If you say yes, whats it based on? Half a season Vs Championship players? Tell that to the Brazilians, Germans, Argentinians, Italians, Spanish, Dutch etc.

Mate i've not said this at all, he isn't one of our best players no!

I thought Bent and defoe ought to be in the team but i'm not the manager...

id rather have walcott than fowler thought because i think nobody knows about him and he has a potential shock factor (again, he shouldn't be picked) but DEFINITELY not fowler!

WhiteWashMan

im surprised no one has mentioned andy johnson tbh.

dont get me wrong on the crouch thing, i just dont think he is the class player that everyone else seems to think he is. maybe i know something you all dont

but if i was going to pick the squad, i think i would have picked the entire defence the same except pick king instead of campbell.

i would have poicked the same midfield, ecept left out hargreaves

and i would have picked crouch, johnson, bent, defoe and probably owen or defoe, but the last two definately depending on what the estimated time of recovery is.

if both of them would be fit after 2 weeks of the world cup, id bring them both and drop defoe.

TheMonster

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Nah I'm sure you hope I do tell you I disagree with you because I've seen you go around just looking to get into arguments for the sake of it, regardless of whether or not you actually believe the point you are arguing.

As regards Crouch, I've seen him probably close to 30 times this season. He is far from ****, and definitely not a one trick pony. Liverpool rarely play long balls up to him just so he can flick them on, in fact most of the time he takes any balls played up to him down, before passing it off on the deck. He has touch bordering on the sublime. I have never seen a player being able to control balls played to him at all levels with such ease.

I have a feeling you will disagree with me though for the sake of it, but I also have a feeling that the amount of full games you have seen the lad play could be counted on one hand, so I don't really value or care what you think of him.

Sure you probably know more than Rafa Benitez anyway

He has touch bordering on the sublime.

I still haven't stopped laughing at this, and I read it 10 mins ago. Theres my new sig sorted.

Granted he has a role to play for Liverpool but I have seen balls bounce off him ometimes when he tries to control them. He is not upto playing the main striker who think they have a chance of winning the world cup.

p.pete

WhiteWashMan wrote:

im surprised no one has mentioned andy johnson tbh.

dont get me wrong on the crouch thing, i just dont think he is the class player that everyone else seems to think he is. maybe i know something you all dont

but if i was going to pick the squad, i think i would have picked the entire defence the same except pick king instead of campbell.

i would have poicked the same midfield, ecept left out hargreaves

and i would have picked crouch, johnson, bent, defoe and probably owen or defoe, but the last two definately depending on what the estimated time of recovery is.

if both of them would be fit after 2 weeks of the world cup, id bring them both and drop defoe.

Similar to that...

Green I think is a mistake, Carson should be in. James we leave in for comedy value I guess.
Defence is fine though both Cole and Cambell are gambles. Don't know if King is fit, if he is then he should be there instead of Campbell, can't think of an alternative to Cole.
Hargreaves is a mistake.
Rooney is just wrong (or maybe it'll be proved not). Owen is a gamble, as is Walcott. Bent should be ahead of Johnson and Bent and or Defoe should be in the squad proper (instead of Hargreaves).

Villain

James is a mistake anyway, his form in the last few games has been very poor dropping crosses like he did at Liverpool and swinging widely at backpasses. But lets be honest unless Robinson gets injured or suspended the other 2 keepers will never get a look in.

The defence is very solid with plenty of cover in Bridge,Carragher and Campbell.

The midfield? well for starters there are too many midfielders, IMO Jenas,Hargreaves, Lennon or Downing should have been left out for another striker. As for SWP not been picked well that just doesn't make sense he's a threat a real threat and no matter how few games he has started he is still better than the 4 midfielders I listed above.

The strikeforce doesn't look all that great imo and thats even with Rooney playing some part. I reckon Rooney is likely to go to the world cup with him been available for the quater or semi finals should England make it that far. So that leaves you with Crouch, Owen and Walcott!!! and some people reckon England can win the World Cup? Well actually its possible but only if they play as a team and work for each other.

I reckon the starting line up for the group games will be:

.........................................Robinson......................................
Neville...............Ferdinand........................Terry..................Cole

Beckham.............Gerrard..........................Lampard..............Cole

..........................Crouch....................Owen...........................

And TBH thats not a bad side if Owen can find his form and feed off Crouch.

Jivin Turkey

growler wrote:

Was waiting for that ! I think that SWP has a lot of problems in the PL with his lack of physical presence, in the world cup with less liberal refereeing ... he has the ability to change a game. SWP also played in the england friendlies as did Defoe, both scored, both get left behind... great management. :rolleyes:

I think SWP is a great player, but (1) he should not have been included at the expense of Walcott (or any other striker) as you first suggested and (2) I can see why SGE chose an in-form Aaron Lennon over him seeing as he is hardly getting a kick at Chelsea. He hasn’t even scored a goal all season. I said already I would say it was a tight call but I can see why SGE went for Lennon.

Secondly neither SWP nor Defoe have scored for England since the beginning of the 04/05 season so I don’t know where you are pulling that stat out of. Defoe has a single goal in 16 caps (all be only four starts) hardly an incredible record at the highest level. And going by your own logic Crouch did score in the pre-WC friendlies so surely he has to be included?

growler wrote:

There aren't many outside of liverpool fandom who think crouch is a decent striker, I'm with them.

I’m sure Southampton and Portsmouth fans rate him. The England management obviously do. In fact I’d be quite certain that the fans and management of any team that he got a decent run for rate him, because they take him for what he does and not what he looks like.

growler wrote:

There are better choices out there, Bent, Defoe, johnson as mentioned.

I think Bent should have gone, but instead of Walcott. I think Defoe and Johnsen are too similar types to the likes of Bent, Owen, Walcott and even Rooney, and that is why I think Crouch is and was always going. I don’t think Defoe has done enough for his club this year to warrant an inclusion, and I think Johnsen has been unlucky with injuries which has cost him any chance.

growler wrote:

With the current set up, if Crouch plays up front on his own, which seems likely, then England will seriously struggle imho to score from open play, I think he's too easy to defend against when you're up against some serious opposition.

It’s not like Liverpool were only able to score goals from set pieces this year with Crouch in their side, in fact I think very few of their goals came from set pieces. Add to that England will have players like Cole and Lampard (probably Owen and possibly Rooney) who are a serious step up on what Liverpool have to offer scoring goals won’t be a problem for England.

TheMonster wrote:

I still haven't stopped laughing at this, and I read it 10 mins ago. Theres my new sig sorted.

Knock yourself out. I love when United fans start having a go at Crouch, I’m sure he finds it chronically amusing too.

TheMonster wrote:

Granted he has a role to play for Liverpool but I have seen balls bounce off him ometimes when he tries to control them. He is not upto playing the main striker who think they have a chance of winning the world cup.

Again I’m saying he is the best in the world, or even world class. But he is a very useful player, that will do well at the WC if given a chance. He plays in a certain way that will get the best out of Lampard and Gerrard.
Who would have thought the likes of Carsten Jancker or Miroslav Klose would have been up to the role of being main strikers for a team with a chance of winning the WC?

Guy:Incognito

irish1 wrote:

Robinson
Neville...............Ferdinand........................Terry..................Cole

Beckham.............Gerrard..........................Lampard..............Cole

Crouch....................Owen

And TBH thats not a bad side if Owen can find his form and feed off Crouch.

Apart from th efact that theres no cover there for the defence. Any half decent team will stream through that midfield, which leaves the defence awfully exposed. Hence the years long debate re: a holding midfielder.

Villain

Stekelly wrote:

Apart from th efact that theres no cover there for the defence. Any half decent team will stream through that midfield, which leaves the defence awfully exposed. Hence the years long debate re: a holding midfielder.

Funny that I was at Anfield 2 weeks ago and Gerrard looked very much like a defensive midfielder reminded me of Keane of old.

eirebhoy

irish1 wrote:

Funny that I was at Anfield 2 weeks ago and Gerrard looked very much like a defensive midfielder reminded me of Keane of old.

Keane was always a lot more disciplined (if that's the correct word) and he knew where to be at all times. Gerrard sometimes can't resist getting forward and would no doubt leave gaps. Also, Keane usually had someone else around him who could actually tackle.

Guy:Incognito

irish1 wrote:

Funny that I was at Anfield 2 weeks ago and Gerrard looked very much like a defensive midfielder reminded me of Keane of old.

He didnt score 21 goals this season by being a DM. Same with Lampard. Those 4 in midfield is too attack to play and win against most top teams (obviusly it would the odd time)

evilhomer

eirebhoy wrote:

Keane was always a lot more disciplined (if that's the correct word) and he knew where to be at all times. Gerrard sometimes can't resist getting forward and would no doubt leave gaps. Also, Keane usually had someone else around him who could actually tackle.

You mean like Paul Scholes??