united ireland

zuma

murphaph wrote:

Wow, a two page thread on partition that hasn't descended into a slagging match. I'm impressed with you lot!

As for me, well I'd reiterate a couple of points made already. What's the point in a united Ireland, and so long as everyone gets a vote in their own place, it's all good.

NI's economy today is a basket case. They estimate it's heading towards 50% of GNP that is dependent on public spending. This would need to be changed before any thought of a UI could be countenanced for our own economy's sake.

The points about the prods up north 'realising' their irishness with a bit of irish education (that sounded quite scary, like programming or something!) is very optimistic. I recently watched a documentary on BBC1 NI about the border. They interviewed people all along it about what it meant to them. They were in the town of Drum in Monaghan, interviewing protestants on the 12th. They were born and bred in the area but still felt british. You can't airbrush such people away. They ARE british if they say they're british and that will always be difficult to reconcile, unless we move closer to the United Kingdom ourselves, some sort of federation of the isles or something. It isn't that crazy-our legal systems are essentially the same (precedent based on common law, like most former empire nations, as opposed to the constitutional systems used across the continent). So how would people feel about greater involvement in the United Kingdom? Perhaps a republic or Great Britain & Ireland (I mean, the monarchy could be abolished or anything by then!)???

As long as their economy is MASSIVELY subsidised by the Uk government there isnt a hope in hell that Ireland could manage it!

Until NI sorts of their very scary problems then this "United Ireland" idea is just that an idea.

Im perfectly happy to see NI as a constituent part of the UK as it cant survice on its own and it cant survive attached to Ireland.

As pointed out in a previous post their average wage is slightly lower than ours.....but their production value is 2/3rds of our....which means a huge amount of government jobs to stabilise the exonomy.

New_Departure06

zuma wrote:

As long as their economy is MASSIVELY subsidised by the Uk government there isnt a hope in hell that Ireland could manage it!

Until NI sorts of their very scary problems then this "United Ireland" idea is just that an idea.

Im perfectly happy to see NI as a constituent part of the UK as it cant survice on its own and it cant survive attached to Ireland.

As pointed out in a previous post their average wage is slightly lower than ours.....but their production value is 2/3rds of our....which means a huge amount of government jobs to stabilise the exonomy.

I don't think it'll stay massively subsidised by the UK in the long run. I am not happy at all with partition. This is part of the Irish homeland and while accepting the principle of consent, consider partition to be a transitory phase on the road to a United Ireland. I also consider that the NI statelet has less legitimacy on moral grounds that the Republic and will never change my mind.

zuma

New_Departure06 wrote:

I don't think it'll stay massively subsidised by the UK in the long run.

It has been hugely subsidised for well over a generation!
As I said before it would be like turkeys voteing for christmass!

New_Departure06 wrote:

I am not happy at all with partition. This is part of the Irish homeland and while accepting the principle of consent, consider partition to be a transitory phase on the road to a United Ireland.

Partition is here to stay Im afraid and I'll probable die before said partition is ever erased from what you call your homeland...Im 24!

This is one hell of a long transition...the 360KM long border has been there for over 80 years....~4 generations...and has existed in the minds of many Unionists for much longer.

Just as much as you consider yourself the embodyment of Irishness people like Ian Paisley consider themsleves the cradle of Britishness and NOTHING will change the attitude of such people....especially since their standard of living will strop significantly if ever a United Ireland is created!

New_Departure06

It has been hugely subsidised for well over a generation!
As I said before it would be like turkeys voteing for christmass!

But a lot of that was because of the Troubles which are hopefully fading away.

zuma

New_Departure06 wrote:

But a lot of that was because of the Troubles which are hopefully fading away.

By troubles I assume you mean the "Civil War" because that what it would have been called if it happened in Africa/South America!

We all know that the hatred wont disappear once the bombs stop going off....it took generations for the bickering to stop and still continues in the more rural areas....ours ended in the early 1920's!
And remember our civil war was nice and quick...lasting only ~1 year(too lazy to check wikipedia) the NI equiv lasted 30 years!!!

oscarBravo

New_Departure06 wrote:

I ... will never change my mind.

See, there's the point at which any remote possibility of me taking you seriously spontaneously evaporated. I can't think of any subject on which I can genuinely say that I will never change my mind.

Hell, I don't think I can even think of a subject on which I haven't changed my mind at some point.

darkman2

It appears the North has alot to gain from a UI and weve got alot to lose in economic terms. The North is a failed entity in many ways but particularly economically. 6 billion a year subsidy from the British. They would LOVE to offload that burden on us. The truth of the matter is though that the south gets richer by the day and tbh the 'we cant afford it' argument is wearing thin. So I dunno, proceed or not to proceed. Maybe joint sovereignty is closer then we think.

Street Byte

On the question of a United Ireland I can sum up my opion in 2 words - no thankyou.

We have a hard enough time dealing with our own criminal element without importing the Norths head bangers. The issue of recognising "Ulster Scots" as a minority is one I won't even dare (or care) to contemplate.

NI needs another 25 years to get its act together. Ask me then and I might care to see it happen - but I doubt it.

zuma

darkman2 wrote:

It appears the North has alot to gain from a UI and weve got alot to lose in economic terms. The North is a failed entity in many ways but particularly economically. 6 billion a year subsidy from the British. They would LOVE to offload that burden on us. The truth of the matter is though that the south gets richer by the day and tbh the 'we cant afford it' argument is wearing thin. So I dunno, proceed or not to proceed. Maybe joint sovereignty is closer then we think.

Earthman actually made a good point as he/(it?...haha) locked a similar thread stateing that the EU will ultimately have to pay for the creation of a UI in mabye 50 or 100 years....using mostly British monies I assume!

Is this 6 Billion EURO or STERLING(~€10,000,000,000 !!!!!!!)

catholicireland

What's the point of a United Ireland?

Well, if you havent noticed, our Irish Catholic brothers up in the north are still being ruled by a foreign power.

murphaph

catholicireland wrote:

Well, if you havent noticed, our Irish Catholic brothers up in the north are still being ruled by a foreign power.

They know where the border with a more prosperous nation is if they hate the yoke of oppression that much. Something tells me they are happy enough though

zuma

catholicireland wrote:

Well, if you havent noticed, our Irish Catholic brothers up in the north are still being ruled by a foreign power.

Im not sure if youve noticed or not but people put down they are Catholic on those census forms because they were baptised catholic and not because they are a practising catholics.

If you did a more in depth survey you would find that the Irish disagree with a lot of the Catholic teachings....then again given your nick Im sure your couldnt give a toss!

New_Departure06

The reunification of the national territory is something which - while only achievable by consent - is a moral imperative.

murphaph

New_Departure06 wrote:

The reunification of the national territory is something which - while only achievable by consent - is a moral imperative.

Sorry, but that last bit doesn't actually make any sense to me. Maybe if you defined moral imperative it'd help me understand. I don't think morals come into this. If a majority (of both parts of this island in independent referenda) want NI to become part of the RoI then, even though I don't think it's in anyone's interests etc. I'd accept it as it is the democratic will of the peoples. I recognise that you are a democrat too and wouldn't force your beliefs on anyone but I still don't get the 'moral imperative' bit. An imperative implies urgency and use of the word 'moral' suggests this to be the 'right' course of action, when that may not be the case.

catholicireland

catholicireland wrote:

Well, if you havent noticed, our Irish Catholic brothers up in the north are still being ruled by a foreign power.

I'm sure the Brits would be delighted that you regard them as a power

New_Departure06

murphaph wrote:

Sorry, but that last bit doesn't actually make any sense to me. Maybe if you defined moral imperative it'd help me understand. I don't think morals come into this. If a majority (of both parts of this island in independent referenda) want NI to become part of the RoI then, even though I don't think it's in anyone's interests etc. I'd accept it as it is the democratic will of the peoples. I recognise that you are a democrat too and wouldn't force your beliefs on anyone but I still don't get the 'moral imperative' bit. An imperative implies urgency and use of the word 'moral' suggests this to be the 'right' course of action, when that may not be the case.

It is the national homeland of the Irish people since time immemorial. It is ours and Britain is simply looking after it for us until both parts of the island are ready for it to be returned to the Irish nation.

murphaph

New_Departure06 wrote:

It is the national homeland of the Irish people since time immemorial. It is ours and Britain is simply looking after it for us until both parts of the island are ready for it to be returned to the Irish nation.

Hmmm, but surely it's the homeland of whoever actually lives there?

oscarBravo

New_Departure06 wrote:

It is ours...

It's not mine.

darkman2

zuma wrote:

Earthman actually made a good point as he/(it?...haha) locked a similar thread stateing that the EU will ultimately have to pay for the creation of a UI in mabye 50 or 100 years....using mostly British monies I assume!

Is this 6 Billion EURO or STERLING(~€10,000,000,000 !!!!!!!)

6 - 7 billion sterling. I know I find it hard to get to grips with the amount of sponging thats obviously going on. The truth is they can all f**k around up there and the British will bail them out. A sad existence but thats the type of ppl were dealing with:(

billy the squid

Firespinner wrote:

What episode did star trek mention the reunification in?

firstly to answer this question. The date was 2024, and the episode was The High Ground. Banned on RTE and BBC, Sky showed an edited version of the episode

keep an eye on Channel 6 as it should be coming up in a couple of months on that channel

now to answer the question of the OP.

No I do not see a united Ireland happening within my lifetime. There is too much hatred going on up there between the two communities. The people down south are content to make money. They look more to brussels than to Belfast. Uniting Ireland would put a strain on our economy, what with the addition of a bloated civil service, and a population of disgruntled unionists.

To be hones, both sides nationalist and unionists need to grow up before they would be welcomed by me into a united ireland. The republican movement needs to get its disadents under control, they need to convince them that their peurile view on the Northern Ireland question is flawed.

The Unionists need to stop trying to be ultra brittish. Even the brittish "on the mainland" don't carry on the way they do.

billy the squid

catholicireland wrote:

Well, if you havent noticed, our Irish Catholic brothers up in the north are still being ruled by a foreign power.

and your irish catholic brothers (and sisters) on both sides of the border subscribe to a foreign (italian) religion.

any person who allows the type of hatred i have seen in recent days fester in their children is no brother of mine. you have teenagers beating the **** out of each other in tit for tat attacks.

Hotblack Desiato

billy the squid wrote:

you have teenagers beating the **** out of each other in tit for tat attacks.

are we talking Belfast or the Burlo?
the mob mentality is attractive to a lot of people with nothing better to do, religion, like football club or school or even race is just an excuse.

New_Departure06

murphaph wrote:

Hmmm, but surely it's the homeland of whoever actually lives there?

No. Others are just visitors unless they have Irish ancestory. I believe in the tradition in nearly all European country of ethnic-groups with their own separate homelands.

To give a parallel: I own a house. If I choose to allow someone over to stay, even for a while, it is still my house, not theirs.

murphaph

New_Departure06 wrote:

No. Others are just visitors unless they have Irish ancestory. I believe in the tradition in nearly all European country of ethnic-groups with their own separate homelands.

To give a parallel: I own a house. If I choose to allow someone over to stay, even for a while, it is still my house, not theirs.

But sure the british people up there didn't swan over last week and outstay their welcome. They were all born there to people that were born there to people that were borrn there etc. I mean, how far back do you want to go? If you're talking going back hundreds of years then why not a couple of thousand, and in that case I'll take it you support the jewish homeland in Palestine as that's where the jews originate from and were driven from and that they are entitled to that place and the local muslim (islam is much younger than judaism) arabs who moved in after te majority jewish population was driven away/diminished were just keeping an eye on the place or them.

New_Departure06

murphaph wrote:

But sure the british people up there didn't swan over last week and outstay their welcome. They were all born there to people that were born there to people that were borrn there etc. I mean, how far back do you want to go? If you're talking going back hundreds of years then why not a couple of thousand, and in that case I'll take it you support the jewish homeland in Palestine as that's where the jews originate from and were driven from and that they are entitled to that place and the local muslim (islam is much younger than judaism) arabs who moved in after te majority jewish population was driven away/diminished were just keeping an eye on the place or them.

I wasn't specifically referring to them in my last post. I accept 400 years in a country is a lot more than long enough to be allowed stay there. But they should not have partitioned this country. The Plantation and resultant partition act as a reminder of what happens when immigrants are not assimilated and where their descendents are instead encouraged by the State to retain a separate identity. This way lies chaos.

I agree with Israel's right to exist. However, I oppose their ethnic-cleansing of the Palestinians.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Are Irishcatholic and Newdeparture.... the same person?

New_Departure06

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Are Irishcatholic and Newdeparture.... the same person?

No.

murphaph

New_Departure06 wrote:

I accept 400 years in a country is a lot more than long enough to be allowed stay there

Well then. Isn't that accepting that Northern Ireland has a right to exist as is?

New_Departure06 wrote:

But they should not have partitioned this country.

Who is they? The people alive in Northern Ireland today did not partition anything. They were born in a partitioned Ireland, just like you and I.

New_Departure06 wrote:

The Plantation and resultant partition act as a reminder of what happens when immigrants are not assimilated and where their descendents are instead encouraged by the State to retain a separate identity. This way lies chaos.

Again, the plantation was hundreds of years ago. Using your argument you could argue the case that the Native Americans are the rightful 'owners' of North America and that all the caucasian blow ins are just that, blow ins and they don't have any right to run that country. It doesn't work like that in practice. Time changes things, whether we like that or not.

New_Departure06 wrote:

I agree with Israel's right to exist. However, I oppose their ethnic-cleansing of the Palestinians.

As do I, but why do you accept Israel's right to exist? They just arrived back there in the 1940's and set up shop, booting the arabs out as they went. So how can you accept Israel's right to exist after only half a century while not accepting Northern Ireland's right to exist after hundreds of years of habitation by people who want NI to remain british.

New_Departure06

Well then. Isn't that accepting that Northern Ireland has a right to exist as is?

The GFA does indeed accept that while a majority their want it. And equally it ceases to exist when a majority there and down here vote for a UI.

Again, the plantation was hundreds of years ago. Using your argument you could argue the case that the Native Americans are the rightful 'owners' of North America and that all the caucasian blow ins are just that, blow ins and they don't have any right to run that country. It doesn't work like that in practice. Time changes things, whether we like that or not.

Since you mention the Indians, I hope we don't go the same way as them.

As do I, but why do you accept Israel's right to exist? They just arrived back there in the 1940's and set up shop, booting the arabs out as they went. So how can you accept Israel's right to exist after only half a century while not accepting Northern Ireland's right to exist after hundreds of years of habitation by people who want NI to remain british.

I accept Israel's right to exist because of what happened in the Holocaust. There was no Palestinian state before Israel was created. I agree the Palestinians were treated awfully, but I think the Holocaust justifies there being a Jewish state. I also support a Palestinian state.

Zombrex

Simple fact of the issue is that a united Ireland won't improve anything for anyone, and will probably make things worse, economically and in relation to terrorism on both sides, so whats the point apart from making a bunch of republicans happy?

Northen Ireland is a democracy. Whats the different between it being a democracy part of the UK and being a democracy part of the Republic? Either way it ends up being a small provence working inside a much larger country.

Local government is the way forward for Northern Ireland, with in the structure of a European unified economy. A united Ireland would be pointless, and strip away local power from the actual people in Ulster.