Gardai Get Political

civdef

Good or bad thing for democracy?

One might make the case that the time to oppose this was before the Oireachtas had actually passed the legislation..

GRA to target election over Reserve

09 May 2006 14:20
The Garda Representative Association is to target marginal constituencies and Government deputies with slim majorities as part of its campaign against the Garda Reserve.

The newly-elected President of the Association, John Egan, said that gardaí and Government were aware where these constituencies were.

But he cited Laois/Offaly, Longford/Westmeath, Galway West and Tipperary North where the garda college is based.


He said the Government had one year to abandon the proposal for a reserve and deliver the long promised extra resources for gardaí.

Mr Egan said 'if they do not, we will be waiting in the long grass'. The GRA had a strong voting power and it was not happy with the reserve, he added.

zuma

Very bad for Democracy!!!

If the Defense Forces are not allowed to meddle with Politics then I believe the same law should be enforced on the Gardai!!!

Its a disgrace!

mike65

Gardai get stupid more like, they want to be credible defenders of the peace well this course of action is a good way to blow that for once and for all.

If by some fluke one of them gets elected then what? Threaten the government with a dial vote? If none of them get within an asses roar of winning a seat they'll just look dumb(er).

Mike.

Widgeon

I believe that at this point in time the GRA is failing its members. While I believe that the threat of political activism will have little effect, the fact that it has been promised (threatened) is sad.
As a body An Garda Siochana should be apolitical. Sadly over the years it has not been. The GRA has been political for a number of years - it has called for tougher laws and more powers while not using the powers they have in any effective way, they have called for longer jail sentences also. These two subjects are the perogative of politicians.

I do believe that the idea of a Garda Reserve Force is a good one. There are many genuine people out there who care for their communities and are willing to serve their communities in this particular way. We should applaud these people.

At present I believe that the GRA has turned into a whinging obstructionist organisation

zuma

After listening to the Last Word on Today FM I think they are coming dangerously close to breaking some law introduced in the 1930's to stop the Army/Police interfereing in politics!

The Army in Turkey have a strong say in the politics of that country and its far from a stable democracy!

For the Gardai to threaten such actions here is VERY SERIOUS and should not be tolerated under any circumstances.

There is already a clear separation of the executive/judicial powers in ireland which is why the government cant easily fire a judge.
As a force under the judicary the Gardai have NO RIGHT to tamper with the executive.

As you can see Im very angry!

Dirk Gently

zuma wrote:

For the Gardai to threaten such actions here is VERY SERIOUS and should not be tolerated under any circumstances.

There is already a clear separation of the executive/judicial powers in ireland which is why the government cant easily fire a judge.
As a force under the judicary the Gardai have NO RIGHT to tamper with the executive.

As you can see Im very angry!

hey Zuma I can see why you like the political / judicial powers the way they are. You keep getting away with stuff. http://www.guardian.co.uk/southafrica/story/0,,1770514,00.html

civdef

I'm not sure how the GRA reckons they'll become a political force. Every party in the Dail supports the Garda reserve, with the exception of SF (I think some gardai may still have reservations certain SF policies), so who are they planning on casting their electoral weight (dispersed around the country as it is) behind?

DublinWriter

Considering how the Government use the guards as a political football, this behaviour is hardly surprising.

Firstly, look at how woefully under resourced they are (12,500 guards for 4 million people in ROI, 17,000 PSNI for 1.5 million people in N.I.).

I think the reservest idea is good on the whole, but not when the current full timers aren't even issued with anti-stab jackets, pepper spray, and an encrypted digital radio system.

You can only push a group of people so far before the straw breaks.

At least in the UK, reservists have the power of arrest and have uniforms that aren't visually different from their full-time counterparts.

Not so with the mad-mullahs plan. He was bitch-slapped over cafè-licencening, how he wants to throw his weight around.

The government need to get back down to 'brass-tacks' spending on basic infrastructure in this country (including the health service), and get away from the the high-profile Ministerial-bauble PR-driven photo-shoot projects, such as e-voting and the recent introduction of €80K dual-fuel Lexus cars as ministerial vehicles.

rmacm

This is probably a bad thing. There's something about the people who enforce the law having a part in making said law that doesn't sit well with me and probably many other people. Does the same law that prevents the army from meddling in politics stop the Gardai from doing the same? It would appear not from the above but then again I'm not familiar with the law in this area.

Cheers
Rory

zuma

DublinWriter wrote:

Considering how the Government use the guards as a political football, this behaviour is hardly surprising.

Firstly, look at how woefully under resourced they are (12,500 guards for 4 million people in ROI, 17,000 PSNI for 1.5 million people in N.I.).

I think the reservest idea is good on the whole, but not when the current full timers aren't even issued with anti-stab jackets, pepper spray, and an encrypted digital radio system.

You can only push a group of people so far before the straw breaks.

At least in the UK, reservists have the power of arrest and have uniforms that aren't visually different from their full-time counterparts.

Not so with the mad-mullahs plan. He was bitch-slapped over cafè-licencening, how he wants to throw his weight around.

The government need to get back down to 'brass-tacks' spending on basic infrastructure in this country (including the health service), and get away from the the high-profile Ministerial-bauble PR-driven photo-shoot projects, such as e-voting and the recent introduction of €80K dual-fuel Lexus cars as ministerial vehicles.

Oh come on, you can hardly say that the socities in NI and Ireland are the same!

Those 17,000 PSNI must countrol a society which is far more volatile than our own and frequently require the assistance of another 15,000 soldiers!!!

At 5:18:35 today in the last word at:
When playing listen from 18:35.
http://www.radioireland.ie/lastword/952006-17.wmv

In terms of police per head of population we are 4th ranked in Europe ahead of everyone else (UK/France/Germany...etc) except Italy, Portugal and Belgium who have more police per head of population than us.....under resourced?...not in terms of manpower Im afraid!

Those figures are from the UN and UK Home Office.

zuma

rmacm wrote:

This is probably a bad thing. There's something about the people who enforce the law having a part in making said law that doesn't sit well with me and probably many other people. Does the same law that prevents the army from meddling in politics stop the Gardai from doing the same? It would appear not from the above but then again I'm not familiar with the law in this area.

Cheers
Rory

Im pretty sure they must adhere to the same law....any solicitors here?

Scary I know!

New_Departure06

Are they just worried about losing their overtime?

If the Gardai go on strike then the Army must be used to perform policing duties.

zuma

New_Departure06 wrote:

Are they just worried about losing their overtime?

If the Gardai go on strike then the Army must be used to perform policing duties.

I think they are worried that they wont be able to assimilate these Reserves into the Gardai regime!
By that I mean....when they spend the 2 years being trained they are though certain unwritten "rules".....such "rules" wont already be in the heads of these reserves so they are probable scared that the Reserves will be used as rats for the Superintendents to keep the full timers in check.

Their overtime and extra curricular activites will then be sharply curtailed!

A good comparison would be the Army...PDF and FCA/RDF.
The PDF almost totally ignore the Reserves as they dont think highly of them and are wary of them as well.
The exact same situation will occur when the police reserves begin their duties.

Ronin00074

I think that a Reserve Garda Force may be needed at some stage, in a period of Emergency like how the Taca Siochana was used, but I don't think that now is the right time to introduce a Reserve. Gardai that work day in and day out are woefully under resourced and under equipped. Until the Government resource the Gardai properly I don't see any point in spending millions to bring in a person with less training than a student Garda to do the job of a full time Guard for a few hours a week.

Manic Moran

What's the difference between taking a public position on something, and of being political? I'm sure we've all seen RTE reports saying "The GRA has released a statement describing its opposition to the proposed reserve." Is that wrong? As long as they're not expressing support for any particular candidate, and remaining focused solely on police-related policies, is there a problem?

A related situation is happening over here in the San Francisco area: A recent referendum was held to ban residents from owning handguns. The police officers' association made its views on the issue public. (They were against). Once the ban was approved, the police association joined in as a party to the court case to get it overturned: Police taking an involvement in a political decision, but at no point through the ballot box. Then again, what would happen if at the next meeting, one officer was to stand up and say "I will never vote for Chris Daly again!" (Followed by 'hear-hears'). Is this a political statement?

What is the written prohibition on Gardai and politics anyway? Other than, presumably, "no serving Garda may run for political office." Which, from my reading of the Examiner, is exactly what they're proposing. (Retired Gardai)

NTM

Sparks

Interesting post in this thread on the Gardai's perspective on the Reserve force proposal.
Not sure I'd agree with their approach to protesting this though. It has some extremely uncomfortable overtones to it. But then, so does the manner in which this administration legislates - any court case taken against it (for example, over bin taxes) are then legislated over in a rather cynical and almost petulent manner.

RossMahon

They are wortless! we need a proper police force!

RossMahon

We need proper order and law

New_Departure06

Firstly, look at how woefully under resourced they are (12,500 guards for 4 million people in ROI, 17,000 PSNI for 1.5 million people in N.I.).

Actually the PSNI is around 7,000 these days after the cuts under Patten.

ArphaRima

I'm not particularly enamoured with the idea of a semi-trained, semi-professional police force.
I am, however, extremely concerned with the influence the gardai believe they have the right to wield in politics. This should be stamped on immediately. No state body, especially those sworn to serve the state, and defend it, should ever meddle in its administration. Even as a critic. They are charged with protecting the people, and the people chose this government.

Ex-gardai, like ex-servicemen have every right to serve in government. They cannot however influence garda action(especially voting direction) through their representative organisation. I would construe that as corruption of the highest order, and would support every move to legislate against it.

Sparks

I am, however, extremely concerned with the influence the gardai believe they have the right to wield in politics.

It sits uneasily - but as they're the ones who have the most personally at stake in this, denying them representation would be immoral, even if it's not actually unconstitutional.

On a side note your post raises; people may choose the government - but they do not choose it's policies, and should those policies be not in the best interests of the people, whom should the Gardai or any other state group with a similar oath protect?

civdef

It seems wiser heads have prevailed in the GRA. In my opinion this was an important move for the organisation to make, which has prevented serious difficulties.

Stone overrules Egan's statement

10 May 2006 12:09
The General Secretary of the Garda Representative Association, PJ Stone has overruled his association's newly elected president, John Egan.

Mr Stone has ruled out targeting politicians or marginal constituencies as part of its campaign against the proposed Garda Reserve.

Mr Stone said gardaí wanted to be involved in policing, not politics, and he said if the impression was given otherwise he was very sorry.

Referring to the comments by John Egan yesterday, Mr Stone said sometimes people go further than they should and make mistakes and that was regrettable.

He said he hoped the original statement would not damage the association. However, he insisted that the GRA was still totally opposed to the Garda Reserve and would not cooperate with it.

mike65

I did'nt spot John Egan was newly elected, I think that may explain alot.

Mike.

Dirk Gently

U-turn.

General secretary over rules president of GRA and apologises for any confusion caused. They say they will not get political and will stay out of politics. They adopted a non-coroporation policy with the new reserves.

ArphaRima

people may choose the government - but they do not choose it's policies, and should those policies be not in the best interests of the people, whom should the Gardai or any other state group with a similar oath protect?

My argument would be that it is not the gardais right to determine the direction a government takes. This issue aside, which is clearly an industrial pay/working conditions dispute, the gardai have absolutely no right to act as a pressure group. They are a group of specialists in the policing field, that the government may call upon for opinion or support, but they may never act unilaterally against the government.
Possible exceptions include popular uprisings against unconstitutional governments. However I believe the army would be far more influential there.

The reservist scheme I believe is being used as a cheap number fixing scam by the government. They can raise thousands of cheap un-pensioned (and therefore non-contributory to the gardais scheme) semi-volunteers, with little legal training, low hours worked, and only political statistics to show for it. The government will be able to show massive apparent dividends. Peak time police presence will seem huge (sat nights), overtime bills will dive, pension pressures stabilise, wage demands are undercut (sufficient supply of labour), and all the while their reliability will be rather poor in the eyes of a court.
I'm not convinced just yet.

civdef

and all the while their reliability will be rather poor in the eyes of a court.

I'm skeptical about this one. Special constables in the UK testify in court regularly with no more difficulty than regular officers. The key to this is proper training, and oversight/backup of regular officers to assist the part-timers (which of course looks like will be missing here).They types of offences reservists will be dealing with are going to be of the straightforward type.

Sparks

fluffer wrote:

My argument would be that it is not the gardais right to determine the direction a government takes.

I'd agree with that; but not with the notion that the government has a right to dictate policy to those the policy affects without consultation, which seems to be exactly what's happening here.

This issue aside, which is clearly an industrial pay/working conditions dispute

In fairness to the gardai, that's not clearly the case at all. Working conditions would have to factor into it, but the main concern seems to be the increase in personal risk and workload to the gardai purely caused by being required to work with (presumably) well-meaning but undertrained and inexperienced amateurs.

the gardai have absolutely no right to act as a pressure group. They are a group of specialists in the policing field, that the government may call upon for opinion or support, but they may never act unilaterally against the government.

Actually, since being given the vote in the 1960s, the gardai may do exactly that as individuals - and that seems to be precisely their plan, according to statements from the Garda who held the post of GRA president before Egan.

And do you not feel it should be encumbent, if not mandatory, for the government (who are not experts in policing) to consult the experts in the field (which would be the gardai) before determining policy?

mickcarroll10

DublinWriter wrote:

Considering how the Government use the guards as a political football, this behaviour is hardly surprising.

Firstly, look at how woefully under resourced they are (12,500 guards for 4 million people in ROI, 17,000 PSNI for 1.5 million people in N.I.).

Are you seriously trying to compare policing levels with the north,yer are having a laugh.

Em 20 years of troubles might be a reason for policing levels

ISAW

zuma wrote:

A good comparison would be the Army...PDF and FCA/RDF.
The PDF almost totally ignore the Reserves as they dont think highly of them and are wary of them as well.
The exact same situation will occur when the police reserves begin their duties.

Nope becaues the FCA or reserves serve on their own. i served eleven years the only time I served with regular army on a day to day basis was when I did border duty. I did border patrols and guard duties and got on fine with my regular counterparts. the reserves will have to do duties the Gardai do. It isnt good enough to split them off to do mundane jobs the Gardai dont like. It will create a "black in the jacks" senario. I don't approve of some secition of society been looked upon as doing the dirty mundane and low paid jobs. But the Gardai don't want yellow pack gardai either.

The political push isnt with the GRA it is with AGSI. Who will supervise all these reserves? ther is a need for extra sargeants and Inspectors. Most bright can get to Inspector rank without politics if they work hard and keep their bib clean. After Inspector politics comes into the picture. Anyway, they will need more of the senoir ranks. The Gardai will want promotions. so the political answer in my opinion is to promote the worst agitators in any district.

ISAW

zuma wrote:

After listening to the Last Word on Today FM I think they are coming dangerously close to breaking some law introduced in the 1930's to stop the Army/Police interfereing in politics!

the Last word was wrong in my opinion. I think it was the 1923 electoral Act but some people e.g Judges, comptroller and auditor general etc. are constitutionally banned.
I am not certain but check it out on gov.ie and follow the autourney general link to the Irish Statute book. Im fairly sure im right.
****e Ill check!

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/
Here is section 57. Section 51 says the same for Dail Eireann:

57.—(1) Every citizen of Saorstát Eireann without distinction of sex who is of the age of 35 years or upwards and is not subject to any of the disqualifications mentioned in this section shall be eligible to be elected and (subject to taking the oath prescribed by the Constitution of Saorstát Eireann) to sit as a member of the Seanad.

(2) Each of the following persons shall be disqualified from being elected or sitting as a member of the Seanad, that is to say:—

( a ) a person who is undergoing a sentence of imprisonment with hard labour for any period exceeding six months, or of penal servitude for any term imposed by a court of competent jurisdiction in Saorstát Eireann;

( b ) an imbecile and any person of unsound mind;

( c ) an undischarged bankrupt under an adjudication by a court of competent jurisdiction in Saorstát Eireann;

( d ) a person who is by the law for the time being in force in Saorstát Eireann in relation to corrupt practices and other offences at elections incapacitated from being a member of the Seanad by reason of his having been found guilty by a court of competent jurisdiction in Saorstát Eireann of some such practice or offence:

Provided always that the disqualification effected by this Sub-Section on account of a sentence of imprisonment or penal servitude shall not, in the case of a person who is a member of the Seanad at the date of such disqualification take effect until the expiration of thirty days from the date of the sentence, or in the event of an appeal, from the date of the order confirming such sentence.

(3) A person shall be incapable of being elected or sitting as a member of Seanad Eireann who is

( a ) member of the defence force of Saorstát Eireann on full pay;

( b ) a member of any police force in Saorstát Eireann on full pay;

( c ) a person either temporarily or permanently in the Civil Service of Saorstát Eireann unless he is by the terms of his employment expressly permitted to be a member of Seanad Eireann.

(4) If any person who has been duly elected a member of the Seanad should while he is so a member become subject to any of the disqualifications mentioned in this section he shall thereupon cease to be a member of the Seanad

There is already a clear separation of the executive/judicial powers in ireland which is why the government cant easily fire a judge.
As a force under the judicary the Gardai have NO RIGHT to tamper with the executive.
As you can see Im very angry!

And rightly so! If it wasnt illegal it should be made so by seperation of powers. But when the GRA was set up six members had to go on the run. I knew two of them. You would never believe where they were hiding out! Anyway the point is that PDFORA GRA etc. need to be allowed exist as well.

We used to be closer to a police state then we are now. some people say Dev put the President into the constitution as chief of staff to prevent the possibility of a coup. Could you imagine Mary Mac or robinson heading up a military coup?

the_syco

All else has failed, it would seem. I'd say they don't see why civilians should just be allowed to join, given power, and not have had to do 4 years of training to get to that point. The Gardai will now have to babysit them half the time. And what happens when they do something wrong? And get sued? Will we, the tax payer, be left to foot the bill?

In the FCA, you're trained a bit, and the training keeps going, and even then, you're not just lumped with the Defense Forces.

From what it sounds like, the Gardai Reserves will get a bit of training, and then get lumped with the Gardai.


I wonder were the Gardai asked if they'd mind. Or if the politicians decided that it'd win a few votes. Becasue, to me, it sounds like the politicans are intervening in what the Gardai do.