Gardai Get Political

DublinWriter

Comparing the FCA to the guards is like comparing apples and oranges.

The FCA doesn’t see much active service, aren't deployed on UN peacekeeping duties, and unlike the guards, don't go into battle every day.

I spoke to a friend of mine who is an Officer in the army shortly after the whole Willie O'Dea gun pointing episode. I asked him why any of the senior Officers didn't tell him to hold his horses. His exact words to be where of the effect 'if the Minister wants to pull his trousers down on the parade ground and moon the press, that's his right'.

In our democratic society, we have this strange paradox where the Minister sits at the top of a chain of command. The Minister tells the Commissioner what do to, the Commissioner tells the Deputy Commissioners what to do, the Deputy Commissioners tell the Assistant Commissioners what do to and it all falls down on the shoulders of the humble mule in the field.

If McDowell turned around in the morning and told Noel Conroy that standard garda male uniforms would incorporate a pink tutu, then Noel Conroy would be legally obliged to carry out the Minister's instruction.

On the ground, you could expect mutiny, and I think that's what we're in for over the reservists.

Whatever about the GRA not supporting it, if the AGSI are agin it, then it won’t happen.

However McDowell continues to behave like Judge Dredd, constantly stating "I am the law!" and pointing to his electoral mandate as proof.

The core of the question is that in this country Ministers can, and frequently do, make bad legislation and bad decisions, yet there is no effective process of checks-and-balances to hold them into account.

Having an electoral mandate and a ministership does not automatically mean 'papal infallibility'.

Hotblack Desiato

Sparks wrote:

I'd agree with that; but not with the notion that the government has a right to dictate policy to those the policy affects without consultation, which seems to be exactly what's happening here.

That's exactly what the government is doing to civil and public servants over decentralisation.
At least the Garda reserve won't waste a billion euro for nothing.

DublinWriter

ninja900 wrote:

At least the Garda reserve won't waste a billion euro for nothing.

Really? Just wait till the claims cases start rolling in.

Dark_lord_ire

I am a member and i wont say to much otherthen the GRA made a bad call they have acknowledged that fact. Basically gardai are annoyed at this reserve as we feel point one that any garda that you me that being me or anyone else is the as normal as the nest man, we get 2 years training over a year and a bit before you making an arrest. I joined 5 yrs ago and am still learning, no matter what people think its not a job you can walk into and do it is a hard job. No only putting yourself on the front line for the common good but also the paper involved with that. No part timer can do this and people respect the gardai for being professional with dealing with incidents. I have heard all the bad press about the force some deseved some not. But all gardai ask is that we get resourced, by this desent cars that can take a hard impact, good communication system and personal protective gear i.e. stab vests in the city and uniforms thats dont fall apart.

Sorry people it touching on many points with little detail but thats only because i could write a page on each

Unpossible

This may be a tad off topic (and probably a stupid idea but...), somebody in a previous post said that the reserve members would have less training than a student Garda. So why can we not have student gardai out on the street for a few hours a week? It could be put down as some kind of work expirence, they get to go out into the field with one or two "proper" garda/i and see how things are done.
It doesnt seem unreasonable to me, college students have to do 6+ months of work before graduating & my friend who is training to be a doctor often has to work in the local hospital.
We also had the student gardai out on the "Blue Flu" day if any of ye remember

zuma

I think the student Gardai already do work experience before becoming qualified.

They have blue marks where their rank should be....I think....
The last time I saw them "working" in a group was at a concert.

the_syco

The student Gardai need to work for at least 6 months (maybe more) on the street, before doing more college, and only then do they get the powers to arrest people. Yeah. For 6 months they have to walk around, without being able to arrest people.

JoeB-

The garda reserve is a joke... I fully support the gardai in not working with them...

The guards or anyone else shouldn't follow directions from the minister without question, that would be stupid, think of the Nazi's and the 'I was just following orders'...

A reserve force of untrained civilians, probably not having undergone pyschological profiling to determine suitabilitity would be a disaster... a cheap number boosting stunt for the government. Human rights abuses would increase, I believe anyone could question the motivation of anyone working for free in a garda reserve force, are they doing it so that they feel important and have power over people (which they will abuse)??? Will they take minor transgressions personnally and 'throw the book' at people? And will they work in their own local areas? with people they know?

The Garda can oppose the reserves on the grounds that it would diminish the credibility and the effectiveness of the Garda to such an extent that to allow the reserves would be akin to destroying the force... I hope they do this and say 'NO' to media grabbing, soundbite polititions.
The garda need modern equipment like encrypted radios and whatever else... not stupid government policies.

ISAW

DublinWriter wrote:

The FCA doesn’t see much active service,

Increasingly they are doing more. By the way the FCA dont exist anymore. They are called "reserves"

aren't deployed on UN peacekeeping duties, and unlike the guards, don't go into battle every day.

Nor do the army. the "reserves" might be on UN duties in the near future. and how is the regualr army so "active"?

In our democratic society, we have this strange paradox where the Minister sits at the top of a chain of command.

Actually constitutionally the President sits at the top of the Defence Forces. the Minister sets policy.

The Minister tells the Commissioner what do to, the Commissioner tells the Deputy Commissioners what to do, the Deputy Commissioners tell the Assistant Commissioners what do to and it all falls down on the shoulders of the humble mule in the field.

not quite right. The Minister tells people what should be done but not {b]how[/b] to do it. the minister steers the boat but the admin row it. [pun intended] That is why from time to time the Minister says he will not comment because it is "an operational matter". It is called "seperation of powers" and it is a constitutional impreative.

If McDowell turned around in the morning and told Noel Conroy that standard garda male uniforms would incorporate a pink tutu, then Noel Conroy would be legally obliged to carry out the Minister's instruction.

correct. But not if it affected operational matters. the commissioner could say that a tutu
is b a restrictive garment which does not allow gardai to perform their functions or even that the image of tutu wearing Gardai will affect performance and working conditions. As such the Ministers wishes could be denied.

On the ground, you could expect mutiny, and I think that's what we're in for over the reservists.

during the "emergency" 2000 temporary part-time reservists were drafted in. The Gardai lost a pay increase because of it. They kept them and one of them became a commissioner afterwards.

Whatever about the GRA not supporting it, if the AGSI are agin it, then it won’t happen.

I dont know bout that but have you noticed the loud cries from AGSI condeming the policy??? see what I mean?

However McDowell continues to behave like Judge Dredd, constantly stating "I am the law!" and pointing to his electoral mandate as proof.

He was not elected minister. He was appointed! Nor could he claim "I AM the law" ! He could claim "I PROPOSE the law" Or "I LAY BILLS which become law". The legal system goes much further than making laws and Mc dowell knows this all too well.

The core of the question is that in this country Ministers can, and frequently do, make bad legislation and bad decisions, yet there is no effective process of checks-and-balances to hold them into account.

Frequently? How many acts went through the Oireachtas last year? the last five years? How many of then were flawed? and there IS an effective process to test new legislation. It isnt only the minister who should be held to account. the minister is not a legal expert (well int this case he IS actually but I mean in general) there are AGs State solicitors etc.

Having an electoral mandate and a ministership does not automatically mean 'papal infallibility'.

No it doesnt! Which is why we have an Oireachtas, Tribunals, courts, social bodies etc.

ISAW

JoeBallantine wrote:

The garda reserve is a joke... I fully support the gardai in not working with them...

The guards or anyone else shouldn't follow directions from the minister without question, that would be stupid, think of the Nazi's and the 'I was just following orders'...

it isnt a question of that! It is a question of division of powers. the policy making and implementation are seperate issues. It is not for the Gardai to question the policy.

A reserve force of untrained civilians, probably not having undergone pyschological profiling to determine suitabilitity would be a disaster... a cheap number boosting stunt for the government.

It was done in 1939 with I think two weeks traiining . some of them made commissioner afterwards.

Human rights abuses would increase, I believe anyone could question the motivation of anyone working for free in a garda reserve force, are they doing it so that they feel important and have power over people (which they will abuse)??? Will they take minor transgressions personnally and 'throw the book' at people? And will they work in their own local areas? with people they know?

Whay dont you ask the same of military reservists? they don't seem to be a threat do they?

The Garda can oppose the reserves on the grounds that it would diminish the credibility and the effectiveness of the Garda to such an extent that to allow the reserves would be akin to destroying the force... I hope they do this and say 'NO' to media grabbing, soundbite polititions.

No they cant! It isnt up to Gardai to determine for themselves what credibility is. They could oppose it if it subatantially changed their working conditions. they could oppose it if it was not resourced to such an extent as to make it a hinderance and consequently undermining their duty. Resourcing will require maybe one to two hundred sargeants and several dozen inspectors. Watch this space.

The garda need modern equipment like encrypted radios and whatever else... not stupid government policies.

True. They have the radios by the way. But what they really need is integrity and the trust of the people.

Victor

ISAW wrote:

during the "emergency" 2000 temporary part-time reservists were drafted in. The Gardai lost a pay increase because of it. They kept them and one of them became a commissioner afterwards.

I thought it was much higher, reaching nearly 100,000 (and another 100,000 in the Local Defence Force).

Unpossible

Yeah. For 6 months they have to walk around, without being able to arrest people.

So if we had the final year (or else the second last year) students out on the beat every week for a few hours, with the power to arrest people then we wouldnt really need a reserve force would we?

It seems like a better solution to me..... maybe Im just not seeing the bigger picture/problem

zuma

Victor wrote:

I thought it was much higher, reaching nearly 100,000 (and another 100,000 in the Local Defence Force).

Irish Army:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_army wrote:

However, the Irish Army was greatly expanded (from about 10,000 men up to 40,000 or so, with more recrutied to reserve forces) for the duration of the War to ward off potential invasions from either the Axis or Allied powers (both of whom drew up contingency plans to invade Ireland).

I have no idea about the size of the police force but I guess it shouldnt be more than the Army.

Victor

Local forces were "By August 1940 the strength had risen to 148,306" which included a police and army element.

http://www.army.ie/reserves/fca_history.htm

Widgeon

Now that the GRA blunder about becoming involved in politics make the politicians think twice about becoming involved in Garda affairs? I'm talking about individual politicians interfering with the day to day running of the Gardai and trying to influence their decisions.
I exclude of course the accountability of An Garda Siochana to the Minister and Government.

Cork

It was a massive blunder by the GRA.

The Minister will now introduce the reserves.

McDowell will also have to modernise the force after he recieves the full morris report.

Who will join the Garda reserves - will it be community alert people?

It is volentary so It may encourage people to volenteer.

Widgeon

I don't think it will be all community alert people. It is voluntary and there will be plenty of volunteers.
There is anxiety that the reserve will be full of unsuitable people. There are a large number of unsuitable people in the Guards at present.
The original Garda Siochana members had very little training and inded up to quite recently training involved about three months training for full time Gardai.
There needs to be a fundamental review of the way they work. I can detect a history of cover up over the yerars in a number of different areas. There has always been an element of denial of anything wrong. It would be interesting to look at some high profile cases that went wrong and see what happened top those involved. I have an idea that some of them were promoted, perpetuating the denial and giving the wrong message.

Victor

Many police forces operate training courses of 3-6 months for ordinary "bobby on the street" positions.

Widgeon

It will be interesting to see what the lady from Boston will do or be allowed to do in her new post.