UCDSU Union or Service Provider?

Chinafoot

pretty*monster wrote:

I mean, the apathy and the laziness of people, even those with pretensions of active involvement (even those who have the gall to run for sabat and exec (I should probably add that I'm not talking about a certain B.D. here, just before anyone accuses me of being bitter, I don't sit on any boards with him so I don't know what his attendance is like)) simply beggars belief.

So if people don't want to actively get involved yet still expect their ELECTED representatives to do something for them they are lazy?? Thats a bit rich.

I will be 100% honest here, over the past three years I wouldn't have gone anywhere near the union because the only things I had seen them get up and get active about were issues that as far as I was concerned had no relevance to my life as a student.

That does not mean, however, that because I personally don't wish to become actively involved that I can't expect my elected representatives to work on getting a better deal for me as a student. I pay my registration fees so I expect my money (how ever little it may be) to go towards issues that affect my time in UCD.

I believe you when you say that these issues aren't all the union does, however these are the things the students are made most aware of.

If students are apathetic you might want to consider the possibility that this apathy is stemming from the fact that students don't want their union spending time/money (again, how ever little it may be) on national/international issues and as a result they are completley disillusioned when it comes to the union and quite frankly couldnt be bothered.

As far as I'm concerned, with the exception of Jane this year - who I have to say did a cracking job - the Union is a service provider.

pretty*monster

peachypants wrote:

So if people don't want to actively get involved yet still expect their ELECTED representatives to do something for them they are lazy?? Thats a bit rich.

You'll note that I included those elected reps who do nothing under the lazy banner.

But yes, if you want something done and won't help out with the doing of it in someway, I consider you lazy (unless you have a good excuese).

Remember Class reps don't get paid, and we have are exams and essays to do like everyone else, we're doing it (hopefuilly) cos we care about something.
I did have things I'd rather have done that some of the union work I was doing this year, but I did the work anyway because I'm realistic enough to know that if you want change you have to make it happen.

Another modularisation example (they're all i have, it's all it feels like it's all I did all year ): It was a guy in my class who brough the issue to me way back in september and told me he wanted something done about it. Would I have considered him lazy if he hadn't then helped out with tha campaign. Yes, I would have.

Chinafoot

Hang on a second, reps and sabats put themselves forward. Nobody forces you to do it and you should be aware of the time it will take up before you put yourself in that position.

The union is there to represent the students. You guys are our voice.
So if I expect to not have my bike nicked on campus,having reasonably priced healthy food in the restaurant and a book-shop that doesn't involve my getting a bank loan in order to make a purchase, I'm being lazy by not getting out there and roaring my head off in order to get it??

So tell me what my class reps and my elected sabats are actually doing?

I am not saying that the union should be left to do everything as obviously a show of student support is necesary, however I find the term lazy to be massively insulting.

What the martyrs of the union need to realise is that a substantial portion of the student body is pissed off with the union. We're sick of hearing them roar their heads off over issues that don't involve us, the students. Like firespinner said, they claim to be speaking for all of us. And as MNG said a lot of those in the union are using for their own political agenda. This is the type of thing that is turning people off the idea of becoming involved.

You say that national/international issues take up a very small amount of SU time/money? Well as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure I'm not alone on this, national/international issues should take up zero SU time/money.

Why would the average student want to get involved with a body that is so vocal over issues like Irish Ferry workers, Coca-cola, McDowell etc, when what the average student is concerned about are STUDENT issues? And it is these student issues that we hear so little about.

Class reps need to be sorted out big time. You can't equate the average students lack of knowledge on SU happenings to laziness. Rreps are not doing their jobs properly and the students are clueless and then get called lazy!

It's a student union...not a trade union and not a human rights organisation. If the union actually did what its supposed to do and the students actually seeing progress made on student issues, then you might find the students starting to give a crap.

*waits for obligatory "if you dont like the way the union is run, get involved and change it" response*

A lot of students dont want to get actively involved. Again that doesnt mean they shouldn't get a fair deal while in college. Nor does it mean that they shouldnt expect their representatives to work on it. We have no choice but to be in the union, doesn't mean we all want to be involved.

Diorraing

Its a waste of time and an ego-trip for so many people. I don't see why the college itself requires a big union, it would make more practical sense to have a stronger USI like in England. The USI could bulk-buy for all the colleges and we could start seeing a real "end to the rip-off". At present the SU is too bureocratic and is failing its students dismally. Its not meant to be a platform for people to push forward their own political agendas. What does the UCDSU do that college authorities and the USI can't

Mr.Nice Guy

pretty monster wrote:

But yes, if you want something done and won't help out with the doing of it in someway, I consider you lazy (unless you have a good excuese).

This sums up the problems of UCDSU.

I want to see crime tackled in a better way in this country yet I've no intention of joining the Gardaí - apparently that makes me lazy.

I want to see improvements in healthcare in this country yet i've no intention of joining the health service - apparently that makes me lazy.

I want to see student problems tackled in a better way in UCD yet I've no intention of getting involved with UCDSU - apparently that makes me lazy.

Remove the blinkers.

John_C

There's been a point made a few times here which I strongly agree with; The campaigning on non-student issues alienates most students from the Union. I accept the point that these issues take up a tiny part of the union's time and money but they create a very big problem of credability and goodwill. The majority of students I know are put off from the union by the protests that seem to be held every time a politician visits the college and other similar issues. These protests and campaigns do a huge amount of damage to the union and, in my opinion, need to be curtailed.

peachypants wrote:

*waits for obligatory "if you dont like the way the union is run, get involved and change it" response*

I hear you brother (or possibly sister, such are the problems with either internet discussions or modern language. I don't know). I'm actually one of those stupid people who, when they see something that needs to be done, actually goes and does it. I even went so far as to be my class rep for a year and I think that it was one of the top two most disillusioning experiences of my life.

[Aside]The highlight of the year was listening to Paul Dillon and Angus O'Huraihain row over the significance of the Kevin Barry Window while the rest of us (who had been taken to Dingle at the union's expence) twiddled our thumbs and wondered if us class reps were actuallg going to receive any training.[\Aside]

I don't agree with the opinion that the class reps aren't doing their job, their job is currently stupid. They're not going to get the opinion of their class on council motions when so many pointless political motions are being put forward. There's a bit of a catch 22 situation here because class reps will only do that job when council is a properly functioning body and council might not become a proper body untill reps start doing their jobs.

I also don't agree with the opinion that students are apathetic. As an example, one of the sports clubs I'm involved in held two charity events this year and we had a stupidly high amount of volunteers at both. If you can show a person a constructive way that they can contribute to something that they agree with they will generally help if they can. I think that this ties back to the first point I made about the union's credability. The union has a bad reputation (deserved or not, debate amoungst yourselves) for being overly political. To take the example of the rip off campus campaign, probably everyone I know is in favour of cheap coffee and (I imagine) if myself or someone from my lab were to be involved in a campaign to get the price down, a good gang of us would join in. When the union holds a similar campaign we all avode it like we would some fella on Grafton St. trying to talk us into joining a cult because we've been conditioned to not trust it.

---

I put in a break because this is only a minor point but I'm also of the opinion that the union sometimes calls a campaign too quickly. I there is a practicle solution too a problem the union should apply it and I don't think that that always happens. Two examples:

Rip-off-Campus: Either sell cheap coffe or hand out free boiling water and let students make their own coffee. Watch Hilper's profits take a dive.

Library Books: Make easily photocopyable (and/or .pdf) versions of the books freely available. Rip-off-Bookshop will soon see problems if the books are available for 5 euro worth of photocopy credit.

Vainglory

I'm not going to say too much on this because I really feel that it's all been debated before.

I'll just use a little analogy about the Labour Party instead.

People are always telling me to leave the Labour Party, that it doesn't represent my views, that they're swinging to the right etc, that they are lost to the evils of capitalism blah blah blah.

Many people have already left the party for these reasons, because they didn't like the direction it was going in, and didn't feel they were being represented (somewhat similar to why people perhaps feel alienated from UCDSU).

However, the argument I generally use to these people is that if all the people who had become disillusioned with the party and who thought the party no longer represented them had stayed within the party and used their votes and voices to change it, then it would be a very different party today. It would be the party I want to see.

Agreed that, if this "silent majority" in UCD who hate the way the union is going voted with their feet and used their voices, then they could turn it into the union they want to see? Otherwise, you are left with the people who do vote, and who do use their voices (very often not elected representatives), and they control the direction of the organisation.

PS Thanks peachy

pigeonbutler

Vainglory has just hit the nail on the head. Not to often we agree but she is spot on. If people want the sort of changes to the Union we've seen discussed here, they need to make their voices heard, not neccessarily get involved, because electoral politics isn't for everyone. But they ought to vote and vote for the people that are on their wavelength.

Unfortunately our elections have become more popularity contests lately. As someone involved in a sabbat campaign I'll be the first to admit that. (But for the benefit of pretty*monster, it's for tactical reasons we fought it like that, in an ideal world like I outline here I think we could have won it on the issues.) In an ideal world the majority of students would vote, and they'd make an informed decision on the candidates rather than just vote because their mates told them to.

In an ideal world someone with opinions like me on the union (if seeking election) would tell students the following: I'm a believer in concentrating on DIRECT student issues, I don't think being super-agressive towards college authorities achieves much, and I don't think the Union should support people who go out and break the law of the land while acting in a personal capacity. Now I know not everyone would agree with those ideas (my point is not to debate them on this thread!!, they're just an example), but they're my basic principles for involvement in the SU.

But more importantly other people who don't agree with these (if seeking election) would say as much to students. They'd say: "I want to support people who are in contempt of court orders, I think shouting at Government ministers and jumping in front of their vehicles is an appropriate method of campaigning on students issues. I want to pay fines for students arrested at protests they attended in a personal capacity"

If candidates for election went in and spoke frankly to students in a manner like this then people might start to get the Union they want.

***Health Warning*** It's famously said that democracy gives people the government they deserve
Take that however you wish.

Vainglory

pigeonbutler wrote:

Vainglory has just hit the nail on the head. Not to often we agree but she is spot on. If people want the sort of changes to the Union we've seen discussed here, they need to make their voices heard, not neccessarily get involved, because electoral politics isn't for everyone. But they ought to vote and vote for the people that are on their wavelength.

Unfortunately our elections have become more popularity contests lately. As someone involved in a sabbat campaign I'll be the first to admit that. (But for the benefit of pretty*monster, it's for tactical reasons we fought it like that, in an ideal world like I outline here I think we could have won it on the issues.) In an ideal world the majority of students would vote, and they'd make an informed decision on the candidates rather than just vote because their mates told them to.

In an ideal world someone with opinions like me on the union (if seeking election) would tell students the following: I'm a believer in concentrating on DIRECT student issues, I don't think being super-agressive towards college authorities achieves much, and I don't think the Union should support people who go out and break the law of the land while acting in a personal capacity. Now I know not everyone would agree with those ideas (my point is not to debate them on this thread!!, they're just an example), but they're my basic principles for involvement in the SU.

But more importantly other people who don't agree with these (if seeking election) would say as much to students. They'd say: "I want to support people who are in contempt of court orders, I think shouting at Government ministers and jumping in front of their vehicles is an appropriate method of campaigning on students issues. I want to pay fines for students arrested at protests they attended in a personal capacity"

If candidates for election went in and spoke frankly to students in a manner like this then people might start to get the Union they want.

***Health Warning*** It's famously said that democracy gives people the government they deserve
Take that however you wish.

John I have a reputation to uphold, don't ever say in public that we agree on anything again, y'hear?

Note that I put the "silent majority" in pointed inverted commas..I don't know if it exists or not and to be fair neither do any of you...but until people who really do share your views start communicating them and voting accordingly then I guess we'll never know.

pigeonbutler

Vainglory wrote:

John I have a reputation to uphold, don't ever say in public that we agree on anything again, y'hear?

Note that I put the "silent majority" in pointed inverted commas..I don't know if it exists or not and to be fair neither do any of you...but until people who really do share your views start communicating them and voting accordingly then I guess we'll never know.

This is very true. It's up to ye lot out here to change things!

During the sabbat campaigns Limerick was suggesting that him and I both run for President in 2008 to sort things out once and for all

That might be what's needed!!!

Vainglory

pigeonbutler wrote:

This is very true. It's up to ye lot out here to change things!

During the sabbat campaigns Limerick was suggesting that him and I both run for President in 2008 to sort things out once and for all

That might be what's needed!!!

That would indeed be a battle of epic proportions

To be honest, with one and possibly two abortion referendums coming up next year, and rumblings of a Coke referendum too, I think there'll be quite enough blood spilt on the concourse between left and right by the time the sabbatical elections roll around.

Blowfish

Vainglory wrote:

To be honest, with one and possibly two abortion referendums coming up next year, and rumblings of a Coke referendum too, I think there'll be quite enough blood spilt on the concourse between left and right by the time the sabbatical elections roll around.

Err, isn't that just proving the points that peachy and the others have made all along?

Vainglory

Blowfish wrote:

Err, isn't that just proving the points that peachy and the others have made all along?

My tongue was firmly in my cheek when I said that. As you all know, I don't think it's a bad thing to debate these issues, or that the student population as a whole is asked about them.

pigeonbutler

Blowfish wrote:

Err, isn't that just proving the points that peachy and the others have made all along?

Pretty much. A more united front is what I'd rather see. But to be totally honest the "left" i.e. those in the union whose policies contributors to the thread seem to have the most problem with, aren't really for backing down on anything. Anyone that appeals for moderation and rationality is generally shot down as either a careerist or a CV builder. I want a career in accounting! I don't see how being involved in a Student Union is going to help me much with that.

Vainglory

pigeonbutler wrote:

Pretty much. A more united front is what I'd rather see. But to be totally honest the "left" i.e. those in the union whose policies contributors to the thread seem to have the most problem with, aren't really for backing down on anything. Anyone that appeals for moderation and rationality is generally shot down as either a careerist or a CV builder. I want a career in accounting! I don't see how being involved in a Student Union is going to help me much with that.

Well we'd both like to see united fronts, John, but our two visions of a united front I'd imagine would be radically different in terms of what they might be united on.

AngelofFire

During the sabbat campaigns Limerick was suggesting that him and I both run for President in 2008 to sort things out once and for all

That would be hillarious id actually pay to see that happen.

panda100

I think its good to accumulate a year of union bashing and praising in this thread because at the end of the day this is what most of the arguments boil down to......union or just service provider??

I'm just gonna comment on a few things ......!

First of class reps:
Fundamentally,I really think the class rep system has been the death of the union.Since first year in college its the same people from the same courses getting elected because (A) No one wants to run against them or (b) no one else can be bothered to run.
So year in year out we see the same reps being elected,or not being elected as the case is in many courses.This leaves a stagnant union,with no fresh ideas and just people who got involved in the union to further their own political agenda or to put it on their CV's.
I hope with the new constitution in place that things might change next year. I also think that class reps should only be allowed a MAXIMUM of one year as class rep. I dont think its good for a class to have the same class rep for three years in a row,which is the case for the majority of courses. If noone is elected as a class rep as was the case three years in a row for bigjimthefirst and my year then the deputy president should leave union towers,lecture address the class and make damn sure he doesnt leave the class without a proper elected representative.( I know,I know there's 20,000 students etc etc but as we have seen this year sabbatical offocers have copious time on their hands ) The student union is a grass roots network and if its grass root network isnt working (i.e class reps) then the rest of the union is going to crumble. For the first time in four years last year and this year I think we have a deputy president who actually knows what he's doing.This year was a breath of fresh air in the union with more first year class reps being elected then ever before.Having spent time with a few of these during Dans campaign I saw a friendly,positive and upbeat bunch of first year reps. It contrasted so much with the tired same old worn out faces that Ciaran Weafer had as class reps.(which is hardly suprising with that monstrocity of a freshers guide last year)

Another place where the union fails...comunication. Prettymonster keeps on going on about these meetings that only her and some other bloke turned up too.Did anyone know about these meeting??I certainly didnt see them advertised here or on the UCDSU website.I make it my duty to let everyone here know if there is a world aid soc or med soc event going on,and we are just teeny tiny societys.Why dont the class reps use these forums(theres an events guide sticky at the top of the front page) and the UCD site to tell us these meetings are going on??

I fundamentally agree with a campaigning union.I think it would be a sad day for society if students ceased all activism but It depends what type of activism they are engaging in. I would be one of the first to run down O'Connel street naked in protest to the introduction of fee's and I think most students would too. Fee's is a really important issue that affects most of the students in UCD. However,I think the union shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to campaigns.They just arent effective when we have them day in and day out.Also free fee's ,accomodation and library opening hours etc are all areas that EVERYONE in the college can agree on.No one would like to see the library opened for only 6 hours a day or want to pay fee's. However,the union still seem to campaign vigourously for controversial issues such as anti war,Irish ferrys etc etc.By getting involved in these protest week in and week out it just makes the serious student protest somewhat less effective.And please enough of the 'in solidarity' motions. beining in solidarity with the cuban revolutionarys or Joanne Delaney has absolutley no place in a UCD council meeting and if elected as a class rep next year I can tell you right now I will not spend my time at union meetings discussing sacked dunnes store workers or revolutionary France,and will make that very clear from the word go.

Red Alert wrote:

it would be one thing if everything here was hunky dory but it isn't. libraries, res, computing, modularisation, bars, ents, food provision are all in dire need of campaigning and reform. that will only happen if the union focuses on these issues and forgets about protesting about random stuff.

I think this is what it really boils down to here.So theres 20,000 students and only five sabbats. But this year we have seen the sabbats swannning off and doing completly irrleavant things to what their job suggests. If the students vote for a welfare officer to do a particlular job then I think out of respect to the students who voted them in they should stick to that job. However,this year we have seen the president and education officer inquiring into the pay conditions,wages and working conditions of construction workers....we have seen the education officer putting what Im sure is a lot of time,energy and effort into legal loop holes concerning abortion and legality a few weeks before the summer exams start. And then It annoys me as a student when things like this are said

Vainglory wrote:

We'll see how useful phone chargers in the bar are when they try to bring back fees again, shall we?w

its small things like the phone chargers and the night bus that makes our college day that much easier and better.How does knowing how much joe the builder got paid for last fridays shift help us students??
I dont like this idea of looking down on Jimmy Carroll cos phone chargers arent half as important as the war in Iraq or anti deportation ,and yes in the grand scheme of things its not. But for those 10 or so girls whose battry will die while their in college and have to walk all the way back by themselves in the dark through the clonskeagh gate after the bar shuts it could be a life saver to have their battery charged up again.

So my own opinion....I dont think the union should be just a service provider but that is the way it is heading if people in the union insist on putting columbian coke workers before us.

humbert

The phone chargers are a joke. It's really not difficult to remember to charge your phone before comming to college!
The night bus is a very good idea but I don't think that's in dispute.

panda100

humbert wrote:

The phone chargers are a joke. It's really not difficult to remember to charge your phone before comming to college!
The night bus is a very good idea but I don't think that's in dispute.

Well you would disagree with me ....thats your job!!:) You obviously havent read my post cos you couldnt have read it that quickly..I only put it uo two mins ago

humbert

Yea I did, it went blah blah blah*....phone chargers are great:D

*Only joking, some good su related stuff there.

P.S. how slow do you think I am???

AngelofFire

I dont like this idea of looking down on Jimmy Carroll cos phone chargers arent half as important as the war in Iraq or anti deportation

Actually i think Vainglory meant that issues like Grants, Cutbacks, and Clinical placements are more important than phone chargers. These are the issues that Vainglory has done more on than any other individual in the SU administration wheras James Carroll has been complacent if not counterproductive on those issues, example he cancelled several meetings that were due to take place between himself and councillors from Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council with regard to the grant system, and as a result certain members of the council voted against a motion to centralise the grants system.

But to be totally honest the "left" i.e. those in the union whose policies contributors to the thread seem to have the most problem with, aren't really for backing down on anything. Anyone that appeals for moderation and rationality is generally shot down as either a careerist or a CV builder. I want a career in accounting! I don't see how being involved in a Student Union is going to help me much with that.

To your credit PigeonButler you have the balls to say what many people at your end of the political spectrum would think but would be afraid to open their mouths. You`re more than entitled to articulate your opposition to motions on Collen, Dunnes Stores, Niall Dolan's arrest etc, but please stop claiming that your opposition is in the interests of representing students or that you`re trying to instill moderation or rationallity particularily when your activism on the student issues that you clamour on about has been minimal. You claim that the policies of the left are somehow unpopular, im sure most people posting in these forums and students in ucd agree that the grant system is a shamble, theres not enough books in the library, the reg fee is too high, we are charged extoritionate prices on campus, and the government should not re-introduce tuition feees. The fact of the matter is that those ''left' activists that you demonise have done more on the ''student issues'' above than you have. I hate to bring up old threads but it was a year and half ago that you were using the term '''socialist''' in a pejorative context against SU activists who were taking action against the re-introduction of tuition fees and against erosion of our education system through underfunding. http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=192451 So if we`re taking action on Student issues such as Cutbacks and Fees we`re ''lefties'' or ''Socialists'' and if we`re ''lefties'' or ''Socialists'' that means we`re against the interests of students. Thats very strange rationale me thinks. Hope you dont take this personally i mean nothing malicious behind what i post, i just thought id raise the issue with you.

Dave!

peachypants wrote:

So if people don't want to actively get involved yet still expect their ELECTED representatives to do something for them they are lazy?? Thats a bit rich.

I will be 100% honest here, over the past three years I wouldn't have gone anywhere near the union because the only things I had seen them get up and get active about were issues that as far as I was concerned had no relevance to my life as a student.

That does not mean, however, that because I personally don't wish to become actively involved that I can't expect my elected representatives to work on getting a better deal for me as a student. I pay my registration fees so I expect my money (how ever little it may be) to go towards issues that affect my time in UCD.

I believe you when you say that these issues aren't all the union does, however these are the things the students are made most aware of.

If students are apathetic you might want to consider the possibility that this apathy is stemming from the fact that students don't want their union spending time/money (again, how ever little it may be) on national/international issues and as a result they are completley disillusioned when it comes to the union and quite frankly couldnt be bothered.

Yeah, this is my opinion basically.

I see them as a service provider, and not an unusually good one or anything. If all the sabats etc were removed tomorrow, and new ones put in, the shop would still be open, the trap and the bar similarly, etc.

Maybe they'd sell coke in the shop though!

panda100

pigeonbutler wrote:

During the sabbat campaigns Limerick was suggesting that him and I both run for President in 2008 to sort things out once and for all

That might be what's needed!!!

Looking into my magic crystal ball I think I can predict yet another landslide..........

Vainglory

panda100 wrote:

Prettymonster keeps on going on about these meetings that only her and some other bloke turned up too.Did anyone know about these meeting??I certainly didnt see them advertised here or on the UCDSU website.I make it my duty to let everyone here know if there is a world aid soc or med soc event going on,and we are just teeny tiny societys.Why dont the class reps use these forums(theres an events guide sticky at the top of the front page) and the UCD site to tell us these meetings are going on??.

Sigh.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=306395

http://www.ucdsu.net/newswire.php?story_id=701&search_text=modularisation

Etc....etc...etc...

pigeonbutler

Cheers angeloffire, you're someone I've always been able to have civil discussions with (in spite of the wide disparity between our views) and I appreciate you entering the debate. You misrepresented me just a tad there. When talking about the policies of the "left" (or in your parties case, soon to be centre in a FF-led coalition ) in SU politics I'm not actually referring to postions on the issues. There's no-one out there who wants higher prices in shops, smaller grants, lower funding of education etc. We all have similar goals, it's simply the methods of achieving them vary wildly. Hence my belief that more honest elections would entail candidates expressing HOW they intended campaigning and working rather than what they would work for. For example Pretty*monster knows that the differences between issues in her manifesto and her opponents were minimal but the differences in how each of them would do the job are enormous (let's not get into which way is better, it's just an illustration!).

Next year is a year of great opportunity for UCDSU with a general election coming. We have an enormous job on our hands to encourage voter registration and awareness. I think it's vital that this is done from the first week in September so that then we can go lobby Mary Hanafin and say to her "Look here Minister, 4-5 odd thousand (low estimate) of our members are registered to vote in your consituency next Spring. If you want those votes give us X,Y and Z NOW" Being able to hold so many votes over the heads of about 7 or 8 cabinet ministers that have Dublin constituencies is an enormously strong negotiating postion but it's vital that we pick our battles carefully and seek changes that can be made in the number of months before the election. This would be much more useful than seeking for all the wrongs and unjustices in Irish society to be righted overnight. Non-partisan SU activity will be needed to make this work however. Not something I'd hold my breath on.

Oh and finally.... is the best you can do to discredit me to resurrect an 18month old post that I made before I knew a single person involved in either UCD Students Union, or the Kevin Barry Cumann? Surely you can do better Chris, I say lots of stupid (un-PC) stuff, when I lose the rag!!!!

singingstranger

pigeonbutler wrote:

we can go lobby Mary Hanafin and say to her "Look here Minister, 4-5 odd thousand (low estimate) of our members are registered to vote in your consituency next Spring. If you want those votes give us X,Y and Z NOW"

*waits for AngelofFire, pretty*monster, Vainglory and HappyCrackHead to completely write off ever voting for an FF candidate*

TBH I've always thought that USI should register as a political party and run a candidate in bigger student-populace constituencies like our own...

panda100

Vainglory wrote:

Sigh.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=306395

http://www.ucdsu.net/newswire.php?story_id=70&search_text=modularisation

Etc....etc...etc...

Sorry I forgot to clairfy in my first post that APART from that one meeting I see little else advertised.You will excuse me or any student for missing it on the UCDSU 'blue indymedia'website. Any student who dared go into the newswire section of the website would be so stunned by arguments between left,right,hackish talk etc etc that they woudnt see the thread about that meeting. The open publishing on that website has to go,the boards should be for that,the newswire should be informative (and I dont mean about Joanne Doherty-indymedias for that)

Also It good to see that that was an open meeting.The union needs to be more open and allow students to voice their opinion more. I dont think its right that me or any other student couldnt put forawrd an important motion this year if we wanted to but had to get an elected class rep to forward it for us and then get 'speaking' rights' off another class rep. It doesnt really send out the message that all is welcome.....Especially when we see how well mis-represented we are by the passing of these:

1)
UCDSU Council notes that a new and particularly vicious attack on the basic rights of students and young workers in the form of the CPE has led to a spectacular upsurge of protest and struggle in France.

Council further notes that the so-called "First Employment Contract" (Contrat Première Embauche, or CPE) gives employers the right to sack workers immediately and without any justification over a period of two years. Under this law, any youth that complains about working conditions, joins a union, or displeases his employer in any other way – even if only by falling sick – can be simply sacked on the spot. The employer does not have to give any explanation for his decision.

Council further notes that as of mid-March, 63 out of France's 84 universities were out on strike or staging mass demonstrations. In Paris, several hundred students occupied the Sorbonne University for three days - the first occupation of its type since the famous
rebellion of May 1968. On March 28th, over three million workers took to the streets all over France in protests built by the national students union, UNEF, and the trade unions CGT, CFDT and FO.

Council mandates UCDSU to send a message of solidarity to Bruno Julliard, president of the students' union UNEF, expressing our opposition to the CPE and our support for the strikes and demonstration.

Déjà dix jours de bonheur. The struggle is global. The struggle continues.

Proposed by Conor J. McGowan, 4th Mechanical Engineering
Seconded by Niall Dolan, 2nd Social Science

2)Council notes that UCDSU has an anti-deportation mandate. Council notes that as a result of this mandate, UCDSU established an Anti-Deportation Campaign.
Council notes that at a peaceful ADC blockade at the Garda National Immigration Bureau against the mass deportation that took place on October 18th, 3rd Arts student Dara McHugh was arrested and is due in court on Thursday, October 27th.
Council notes the duty of UCDSU to defend its members and the role of UCDSU in campaigning against deportations.
Council mandates the payment of up to 500 euro towards Dara's legal costs and, if convicted, possible fine.
Council mandates UCDSU members to attend court in solidarity with Dara under the UCDSU banner.

Proposed by Conor McGowan, 4th year Engineering (Mechanical)
Seconded by Darren Cogavin, 3rd Social Science

3)UCDSU condemns the jailing of Willie Corduff, Micheál Ó Seighin, Brendan Philbin, Philip and Vincent McGrath for over 100 days without charge.
UCDSU condemns the operations of the Shell-Statoil companies off the coast of Co. Mayo as it has occurred without a transparent process.
UCDSU calls on the Irish government to immediately release these five men who the wide public support in their campaign to protect their community.
UCDSU also calls on an independent review of not only this case, but also the whole contracting process of oil and gas in this state.
UCDSU mandates that at least one delegate from the union attends the national demonstration in support of the Rossport Five this Saturday.

Proposed : Chris Bond, 1st Arts
Seconded : Niall Dolan, 1st Social Science

Council notes that Collen Construction are the contractors for the new Roebuck Student Residences on the Belfield campus.

Council condemns the jailing of the three bricklayers, Billy McClurg, Andrew Clarke, and Keith Kelly who were protesting in their local community (Ballybrack) against Collen’s use of sub-contractors to reduce wages and conditions and their non-employment of trade union members.

4)Council affirms its support for trade union rights, payment of agreed rates of pay to workers, and quality buildings on-campus.
Council supports protests calling for the release of these workers.
Council mandates the President and the Education Vice-President to
· investigate by the next Council meeting if Collen are using sub-contractors on their Belfield site.
· investigate by the next Council meeting the wage levels being paid by Collen and/or any sub-contractors on their Belfield site.
· insist on trade union rights and oppose sub-contracting on any UCD construction projects at the Governing Authority Buildings Committee.

Proposed by
Oisín Kelly, member for Postgraduate Arts & Celtic Studies and Human Sciences
Seconded by
David Murphy, member for 3rd Year Arts, Group B

5)UCDSU and SIPTU have organised a bus to bring demonstrators who are going to the Irish Ferries protest in town tomorrow thursday 3rd of November. We are meeting at the lake at 1pm and getting the bus from the 10 bus stop at 1:20.
At the last meeting of SU council the Union endorsed a motion supporting the Irish ferries workers and the demonstration


And then defeating such motions as these:

Motion regarding provision of hard copies of past exam papers
Council notes previous availability of past paper booklets in each faculty.
Council further notes, with disappointment, that availability of past papers is now confined to the internet with no back up to computer failure or error in web scanning.
Council mandates the Education Vice-President of UCDSU to do all in her power to reintroduce past paper booklets.
Proposed by Paul Lynam, 1st Social Science
Seconded by Abey Campbell, Postgraduate Science

humbert

That has to be post of the thread:)

Vainglory

humbert wrote:

That has to be post of the thread:)

Meh, maybe if it wasn't filled with inaccuracies and misrepresentations.

Firstly..

panda100 wrote:

And then defeating such motions as these:
Motion regarding provision of hard copies of past exam papers
Council notes previous availability of past paper booklets in each faculty.
Council further notes, with disappointment, that availability of past papers is now confined to the internet with no back up to computer failure or error in web scanning.
Council mandates the Education Vice-President of UCDSU to do all in her power to reintroduce past paper booklets.
Proposed by Paul Lynam, 1st Social Science
Seconded by Abey Campbell, Postgraduate Science

I don't know where you got the idea that this motion was defeated. It was passed. Overwhelmingly.

panda100 wrote:

Sorry I forgot to clairfy in my first post that APART from that one meeting I see little else advertised.You will excuse me or any student for missing it on the UCDSU 'blue indymedia'website. Any student who dared go into the newswire section of the website would be so stunned by arguments between left,right,hackish talk etc etc that they woudnt see the thread about that meeting. The open publishing on that website has to go,the boards should be for that,the newswire should be informative (and I dont mean about Joanne Doherty-indymedias for that)

I did post it on boards. I also postered for it (and every other meeting we had, not just Belfield either), sent texts and emails to reps about it, asked reps to lecture address their classes, and lecture addressed personally any class I could. Precisely what else would you have me do? Tattoo it to my forehead and jump in the lake for publicity?

Also, Joanne Doherty is a student in UCD. Perhaps you mean Joanne Delaney.

The fallacious argument that we waste lots of time and money on non-student issues needs to stop. Funny that you always like to highlight the motions at council that (despite taking very little time or effort) perhaps don't directly affect students, and never talk about the countless more expensive and more time consuming things that we have done on student issues. To name a few ; Healthy Eating Week, SHAG Week, Rip-Off Campus, Grants Campaign, Modularisation Campaign, Access Week, Refresher's Day, the Orientation Week tent, etc etc etc. Just because these things are not discussed or mandated at council DOES NOT MEAN THEY DON'T HAPPEN. NOR DOES IT MEAN THAT WE SPEND LESS TIME ON THEM THAN THE DEBATED MOTIONS.

I will now go through every single motion you cited and quantify exactly how much time/money went into each of them

panda100 wrote:

1)
UCDSU Council notes that a new and particularly vicious attack on the basic rights of students and young workers in the form of the CPE has led to a spectacular upsurge of protest and struggle in France.

Council further notes that the so-called "First Employment Contract" (Contrat Première Embauche, or CPE) gives employers the right to sack workers immediately and without any justification over a period of two years. Under this law, any youth that complains about working conditions, joins a union, or displeases his employer in any other way – even if only by falling sick – can be simply sacked on the spot. The employer does not have to give any explanation for his decision.

Council further notes that as of mid-March, 63 out of France's 84 universities were out on strike or staging mass demonstrations. In Paris, several hundred students occupied the Sorbonne University for three days - the first occupation of its type since the famous
rebellion of May 1968. On March 28th, over three million workers took to the streets all over France in protests built by the national students union, UNEF, and the trade unions CGT, CFDT and FO.

Council mandates UCDSU to send a message of solidarity to Bruno Julliard, president of the students' union UNEF, expressing our opposition to the CPE and our support for the strikes and demonstration.

Déjà dix jours de bonheur. The struggle is global. The struggle continues.

Proposed by Conor J. McGowan, 4th Mechanical Engineering
Seconded by Niall Dolan, 2nd Social Science

Time taken to debate motion : Approx 10 minutes.
Time taken to fulfil mandate : Writing an email - Approx 10 minutes.
Cost of motion : 0

panda100 wrote:

2)Council notes that UCDSU has an anti-deportation mandate. Council notes that as a result of this mandate, UCDSU established an Anti-Deportation Campaign.
Council notes that at a peaceful ADC blockade at the Garda National Immigration Bureau against the mass deportation that took place on October 18th, 3rd Arts student Dara McHugh was arrested and is due in court on Thursday, October 27th.
Council notes the duty of UCDSU to defend its members and the role of UCDSU in campaigning against deportations.
Council mandates the payment of up to 500 euro towards Dara's legal costs and, if convicted, possible fine.
Council mandates UCDSU members to attend court in solidarity with Dara under the UCDSU banner.

Proposed by Conor McGowan, 4th year Engineering (Mechanical)
Seconded by Darren Cogavin, 3rd Social Science

Time taken to debate motion : 15 mins approx
Time taken to fulfil mandate : Some UCDSU members went to the court in their own time. No paid officer of the union attended.
Cost of motion : Dara's fine amounted to 60 euro.

panda100 wrote:

3)UCDSU condemns the jailing of Willie Corduff, Micheál Ó Seighin, Brendan Philbin, Philip and Vincent McGrath for over 100 days without charge.
UCDSU condemns the operations of the Shell-Statoil companies off the coast of Co. Mayo as it has occurred without a transparent process.
UCDSU calls on the Irish government to immediately release these five men who the wide public support in their campaign to protect their community.
UCDSU also calls on an independent review of not only this case, but also the whole contracting process of oil and gas in this state.
UCDSU mandates that at least one delegate from the union attends the national demonstration in support of the Rossport Five this Saturday.

Proposed : Chris Bond, 1st Arts
Seconded : Niall Dolan, 1st Social Science

Time taken to debate motion : Approx 15 minutes
Time taken to fulfil mandate : I went to the demonstration in my own time, on Saturday.
Cost of motion : 0

panda100 wrote:

Council notes that Collen Construction are the contractors for the new Roebuck Student Residences on the Belfield campus.

Council condemns the jailing of the three bricklayers, Billy McClurg, Andrew Clarke, and Keith Kelly who were protesting in their local community (Ballybrack) against Collen’s use of sub-contractors to reduce wages and conditions and their non-employment of trade union members.

4)Council affirms its support for trade union rights, payment of agreed rates of pay to workers, and quality buildings on-campus.
Council supports protests calling for the release of these workers.
Council mandates the President and the Education Vice-President to
· investigate by the next Council meeting if Collen are using sub-contractors on their Belfield site.
· investigate by the next Council meeting the wage levels being paid by Collen and/or any sub-contractors on their Belfield site.
· insist on trade union rights and oppose sub-contracting on any UCD construction projects at the Governing Authority Buildings Committee.

Proposed by
Oisín Kelly, member for Postgraduate Arts & Celtic Studies and Human Sciences
Seconded by
David Murphy, member for 3rd Year Arts, Group B

Time taken to debate motion : 15 minutes approx
Time taken to fulfil mandate : Mandate was never fulfilled. I am actually not on the Buildings Committee, so it was up to James to find out. As is his habit, he ignored the mandate.
Cost of motion : 0

panda100 wrote:

5)UCDSU and SIPTU have organised a bus to bring demonstrators who are going to the Irish Ferries protest in town tomorrow thursday 3rd of November. We are meeting at the lake at 1pm and getting the bus from the 10 bus stop at 1:20.
At the last meeting of SU council the Union endorsed a motion supporting the Irish ferries workers and the demonstration

Time taken to debate motion : 20 mins approx
Time taken to fulfil mandate : Phonecall to bus company - 5 minutes. Postering - 20 minutes.
Cost of motion : Split with SIPTU, so 50 euro.

Total time taken to debate these motions at council : 1 hr 15 minutes
Estimated total time of SU Council over a period of one year (8 councils at approximately 2.5hrs) : 20 hours.

Total time taken to fulfil these mandates : 35 minutes
Estimated total time that any officer of the Union works (excluding holidays) : 115,200 minutes

Total cost of these motions : 110 euro

I think these figures show, once and for all, and quite clearly, the sheer exaggeration, hyperbole and embellishment of the truth here.

110 euro is a tiny amount of money (especially when we take into account how much is spent on direct UCD student issue campaigns, how much was spent on the UCD ball, how many free tickets were given out for the UCD ball etc) - note, I'm not giving out about the ball, just trying to put things in perspective.

35 minutes is a tiny, tiny amount of time when you consider the combined hours that all the officers work that it is hardly even worthy of discussion.

Anyone who trys to suggest that the Union has been preoccupied this year with non-student issues is talking rubbish, and showing quite clearly what sort of agenda they have.

The facts speak for themselves.

The_Minister

I you panda. That was great.