UCDSU Union or Service Provider?

AngelofFire

I dont like this idea of looking down on Jimmy Carroll cos phone chargers arent half as important as the war in Iraq or anti deportation

Actually i think Vainglory meant that issues like Grants, Cutbacks, and Clinical placements are more important than phone chargers. These are the issues that Vainglory has done more on than any other individual in the SU administration wheras James Carroll has been complacent if not counterproductive on those issues, example he cancelled several meetings that were due to take place between himself and councillors from Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council with regard to the grant system, and as a result certain members of the council voted against a motion to centralise the grants system.

But to be totally honest the "left" i.e. those in the union whose policies contributors to the thread seem to have the most problem with, aren't really for backing down on anything. Anyone that appeals for moderation and rationality is generally shot down as either a careerist or a CV builder. I want a career in accounting! I don't see how being involved in a Student Union is going to help me much with that.

To your credit PigeonButler you have the balls to say what many people at your end of the political spectrum would think but would be afraid to open their mouths. You`re more than entitled to articulate your opposition to motions on Collen, Dunnes Stores, Niall Dolan's arrest etc, but please stop claiming that your opposition is in the interests of representing students or that you`re trying to instill moderation or rationallity particularily when your activism on the student issues that you clamour on about has been minimal. You claim that the policies of the left are somehow unpopular, im sure most people posting in these forums and students in ucd agree that the grant system is a shamble, theres not enough books in the library, the reg fee is too high, we are charged extoritionate prices on campus, and the government should not re-introduce tuition feees. The fact of the matter is that those ''left' activists that you demonise have done more on the ''student issues'' above than you have. I hate to bring up old threads but it was a year and half ago that you were using the term '''socialist''' in a pejorative context against SU activists who were taking action against the re-introduction of tuition fees and against erosion of our education system through underfunding. http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=192451 So if we`re taking action on Student issues such as Cutbacks and Fees we`re ''lefties'' or ''Socialists'' and if we`re ''lefties'' or ''Socialists'' that means we`re against the interests of students. Thats very strange rationale me thinks. Hope you dont take this personally i mean nothing malicious behind what i post, i just thought id raise the issue with you.

Dave!

peachypants wrote:

So if people don't want to actively get involved yet still expect their ELECTED representatives to do something for them they are lazy?? Thats a bit rich.

I will be 100% honest here, over the past three years I wouldn't have gone anywhere near the union because the only things I had seen them get up and get active about were issues that as far as I was concerned had no relevance to my life as a student.

That does not mean, however, that because I personally don't wish to become actively involved that I can't expect my elected representatives to work on getting a better deal for me as a student. I pay my registration fees so I expect my money (how ever little it may be) to go towards issues that affect my time in UCD.

I believe you when you say that these issues aren't all the union does, however these are the things the students are made most aware of.

If students are apathetic you might want to consider the possibility that this apathy is stemming from the fact that students don't want their union spending time/money (again, how ever little it may be) on national/international issues and as a result they are completley disillusioned when it comes to the union and quite frankly couldnt be bothered.

Yeah, this is my opinion basically.

I see them as a service provider, and not an unusually good one or anything. If all the sabats etc were removed tomorrow, and new ones put in, the shop would still be open, the trap and the bar similarly, etc.

Maybe they'd sell coke in the shop though!

panda100

pigeonbutler wrote:

During the sabbat campaigns Limerick was suggesting that him and I both run for President in 2008 to sort things out once and for all

That might be what's needed!!!

Looking into my magic crystal ball I think I can predict yet another landslide..........

Vainglory

panda100 wrote:

Prettymonster keeps on going on about these meetings that only her and some other bloke turned up too.Did anyone know about these meeting??I certainly didnt see them advertised here or on the UCDSU website.I make it my duty to let everyone here know if there is a world aid soc or med soc event going on,and we are just teeny tiny societys.Why dont the class reps use these forums(theres an events guide sticky at the top of the front page) and the UCD site to tell us these meetings are going on??.

Sigh.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=306395

http://www.ucdsu.net/newswire.php?story_id=701&search_text=modularisation

Etc....etc...etc...

pigeonbutler

Cheers angeloffire, you're someone I've always been able to have civil discussions with (in spite of the wide disparity between our views) and I appreciate you entering the debate. You misrepresented me just a tad there. When talking about the policies of the "left" (or in your parties case, soon to be centre in a FF-led coalition ) in SU politics I'm not actually referring to postions on the issues. There's no-one out there who wants higher prices in shops, smaller grants, lower funding of education etc. We all have similar goals, it's simply the methods of achieving them vary wildly. Hence my belief that more honest elections would entail candidates expressing HOW they intended campaigning and working rather than what they would work for. For example Pretty*monster knows that the differences between issues in her manifesto and her opponents were minimal but the differences in how each of them would do the job are enormous (let's not get into which way is better, it's just an illustration!).

Next year is a year of great opportunity for UCDSU with a general election coming. We have an enormous job on our hands to encourage voter registration and awareness. I think it's vital that this is done from the first week in September so that then we can go lobby Mary Hanafin and say to her "Look here Minister, 4-5 odd thousand (low estimate) of our members are registered to vote in your consituency next Spring. If you want those votes give us X,Y and Z NOW" Being able to hold so many votes over the heads of about 7 or 8 cabinet ministers that have Dublin constituencies is an enormously strong negotiating postion but it's vital that we pick our battles carefully and seek changes that can be made in the number of months before the election. This would be much more useful than seeking for all the wrongs and unjustices in Irish society to be righted overnight. Non-partisan SU activity will be needed to make this work however. Not something I'd hold my breath on.

Oh and finally.... is the best you can do to discredit me to resurrect an 18month old post that I made before I knew a single person involved in either UCD Students Union, or the Kevin Barry Cumann? Surely you can do better Chris, I say lots of stupid (un-PC) stuff, when I lose the rag!!!!

singingstranger

pigeonbutler wrote:

we can go lobby Mary Hanafin and say to her "Look here Minister, 4-5 odd thousand (low estimate) of our members are registered to vote in your consituency next Spring. If you want those votes give us X,Y and Z NOW"

*waits for AngelofFire, pretty*monster, Vainglory and HappyCrackHead to completely write off ever voting for an FF candidate*

TBH I've always thought that USI should register as a political party and run a candidate in bigger student-populace constituencies like our own...

panda100

Vainglory wrote:

Sigh.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=306395

http://www.ucdsu.net/newswire.php?story_id=70&search_text=modularisation

Etc....etc...etc...

Sorry I forgot to clairfy in my first post that APART from that one meeting I see little else advertised.You will excuse me or any student for missing it on the UCDSU 'blue indymedia'website. Any student who dared go into the newswire section of the website would be so stunned by arguments between left,right,hackish talk etc etc that they woudnt see the thread about that meeting. The open publishing on that website has to go,the boards should be for that,the newswire should be informative (and I dont mean about Joanne Doherty-indymedias for that)

Also It good to see that that was an open meeting.The union needs to be more open and allow students to voice their opinion more. I dont think its right that me or any other student couldnt put forawrd an important motion this year if we wanted to but had to get an elected class rep to forward it for us and then get 'speaking' rights' off another class rep. It doesnt really send out the message that all is welcome.....Especially when we see how well mis-represented we are by the passing of these:

1)
UCDSU Council notes that a new and particularly vicious attack on the basic rights of students and young workers in the form of the CPE has led to a spectacular upsurge of protest and struggle in France.

Council further notes that the so-called "First Employment Contract" (Contrat Première Embauche, or CPE) gives employers the right to sack workers immediately and without any justification over a period of two years. Under this law, any youth that complains about working conditions, joins a union, or displeases his employer in any other way – even if only by falling sick – can be simply sacked on the spot. The employer does not have to give any explanation for his decision.

Council further notes that as of mid-March, 63 out of France's 84 universities were out on strike or staging mass demonstrations. In Paris, several hundred students occupied the Sorbonne University for three days - the first occupation of its type since the famous
rebellion of May 1968. On March 28th, over three million workers took to the streets all over France in protests built by the national students union, UNEF, and the trade unions CGT, CFDT and FO.

Council mandates UCDSU to send a message of solidarity to Bruno Julliard, president of the students' union UNEF, expressing our opposition to the CPE and our support for the strikes and demonstration.

Déjà dix jours de bonheur. The struggle is global. The struggle continues.

Proposed by Conor J. McGowan, 4th Mechanical Engineering
Seconded by Niall Dolan, 2nd Social Science

2)Council notes that UCDSU has an anti-deportation mandate. Council notes that as a result of this mandate, UCDSU established an Anti-Deportation Campaign.
Council notes that at a peaceful ADC blockade at the Garda National Immigration Bureau against the mass deportation that took place on October 18th, 3rd Arts student Dara McHugh was arrested and is due in court on Thursday, October 27th.
Council notes the duty of UCDSU to defend its members and the role of UCDSU in campaigning against deportations.
Council mandates the payment of up to 500 euro towards Dara's legal costs and, if convicted, possible fine.
Council mandates UCDSU members to attend court in solidarity with Dara under the UCDSU banner.

Proposed by Conor McGowan, 4th year Engineering (Mechanical)
Seconded by Darren Cogavin, 3rd Social Science

3)UCDSU condemns the jailing of Willie Corduff, Micheál Ó Seighin, Brendan Philbin, Philip and Vincent McGrath for over 100 days without charge.
UCDSU condemns the operations of the Shell-Statoil companies off the coast of Co. Mayo as it has occurred without a transparent process.
UCDSU calls on the Irish government to immediately release these five men who the wide public support in their campaign to protect their community.
UCDSU also calls on an independent review of not only this case, but also the whole contracting process of oil and gas in this state.
UCDSU mandates that at least one delegate from the union attends the national demonstration in support of the Rossport Five this Saturday.

Proposed : Chris Bond, 1st Arts
Seconded : Niall Dolan, 1st Social Science

Council notes that Collen Construction are the contractors for the new Roebuck Student Residences on the Belfield campus.

Council condemns the jailing of the three bricklayers, Billy McClurg, Andrew Clarke, and Keith Kelly who were protesting in their local community (Ballybrack) against Collen’s use of sub-contractors to reduce wages and conditions and their non-employment of trade union members.

4)Council affirms its support for trade union rights, payment of agreed rates of pay to workers, and quality buildings on-campus.
Council supports protests calling for the release of these workers.
Council mandates the President and the Education Vice-President to
· investigate by the next Council meeting if Collen are using sub-contractors on their Belfield site.
· investigate by the next Council meeting the wage levels being paid by Collen and/or any sub-contractors on their Belfield site.
· insist on trade union rights and oppose sub-contracting on any UCD construction projects at the Governing Authority Buildings Committee.

Proposed by
Oisín Kelly, member for Postgraduate Arts & Celtic Studies and Human Sciences
Seconded by
David Murphy, member for 3rd Year Arts, Group B

5)UCDSU and SIPTU have organised a bus to bring demonstrators who are going to the Irish Ferries protest in town tomorrow thursday 3rd of November. We are meeting at the lake at 1pm and getting the bus from the 10 bus stop at 1:20.
At the last meeting of SU council the Union endorsed a motion supporting the Irish ferries workers and the demonstration


And then defeating such motions as these:

Motion regarding provision of hard copies of past exam papers
Council notes previous availability of past paper booklets in each faculty.
Council further notes, with disappointment, that availability of past papers is now confined to the internet with no back up to computer failure or error in web scanning.
Council mandates the Education Vice-President of UCDSU to do all in her power to reintroduce past paper booklets.
Proposed by Paul Lynam, 1st Social Science
Seconded by Abey Campbell, Postgraduate Science

humbert

That has to be post of the thread:)

Vainglory

humbert wrote:

That has to be post of the thread:)

Meh, maybe if it wasn't filled with inaccuracies and misrepresentations.

Firstly..

panda100 wrote:

And then defeating such motions as these:
Motion regarding provision of hard copies of past exam papers
Council notes previous availability of past paper booklets in each faculty.
Council further notes, with disappointment, that availability of past papers is now confined to the internet with no back up to computer failure or error in web scanning.
Council mandates the Education Vice-President of UCDSU to do all in her power to reintroduce past paper booklets.
Proposed by Paul Lynam, 1st Social Science
Seconded by Abey Campbell, Postgraduate Science

I don't know where you got the idea that this motion was defeated. It was passed. Overwhelmingly.

panda100 wrote:

Sorry I forgot to clairfy in my first post that APART from that one meeting I see little else advertised.You will excuse me or any student for missing it on the UCDSU 'blue indymedia'website. Any student who dared go into the newswire section of the website would be so stunned by arguments between left,right,hackish talk etc etc that they woudnt see the thread about that meeting. The open publishing on that website has to go,the boards should be for that,the newswire should be informative (and I dont mean about Joanne Doherty-indymedias for that)

I did post it on boards. I also postered for it (and every other meeting we had, not just Belfield either), sent texts and emails to reps about it, asked reps to lecture address their classes, and lecture addressed personally any class I could. Precisely what else would you have me do? Tattoo it to my forehead and jump in the lake for publicity?

Also, Joanne Doherty is a student in UCD. Perhaps you mean Joanne Delaney.

The fallacious argument that we waste lots of time and money on non-student issues needs to stop. Funny that you always like to highlight the motions at council that (despite taking very little time or effort) perhaps don't directly affect students, and never talk about the countless more expensive and more time consuming things that we have done on student issues. To name a few ; Healthy Eating Week, SHAG Week, Rip-Off Campus, Grants Campaign, Modularisation Campaign, Access Week, Refresher's Day, the Orientation Week tent, etc etc etc. Just because these things are not discussed or mandated at council DOES NOT MEAN THEY DON'T HAPPEN. NOR DOES IT MEAN THAT WE SPEND LESS TIME ON THEM THAN THE DEBATED MOTIONS.

I will now go through every single motion you cited and quantify exactly how much time/money went into each of them

panda100 wrote:

1)
UCDSU Council notes that a new and particularly vicious attack on the basic rights of students and young workers in the form of the CPE has led to a spectacular upsurge of protest and struggle in France.

Council further notes that the so-called "First Employment Contract" (Contrat Première Embauche, or CPE) gives employers the right to sack workers immediately and without any justification over a period of two years. Under this law, any youth that complains about working conditions, joins a union, or displeases his employer in any other way – even if only by falling sick – can be simply sacked on the spot. The employer does not have to give any explanation for his decision.

Council further notes that as of mid-March, 63 out of France's 84 universities were out on strike or staging mass demonstrations. In Paris, several hundred students occupied the Sorbonne University for three days - the first occupation of its type since the famous
rebellion of May 1968. On March 28th, over three million workers took to the streets all over France in protests built by the national students union, UNEF, and the trade unions CGT, CFDT and FO.

Council mandates UCDSU to send a message of solidarity to Bruno Julliard, president of the students' union UNEF, expressing our opposition to the CPE and our support for the strikes and demonstration.

Déjà dix jours de bonheur. The struggle is global. The struggle continues.

Proposed by Conor J. McGowan, 4th Mechanical Engineering
Seconded by Niall Dolan, 2nd Social Science

Time taken to debate motion : Approx 10 minutes.
Time taken to fulfil mandate : Writing an email - Approx 10 minutes.
Cost of motion : 0

panda100 wrote:

2)Council notes that UCDSU has an anti-deportation mandate. Council notes that as a result of this mandate, UCDSU established an Anti-Deportation Campaign.
Council notes that at a peaceful ADC blockade at the Garda National Immigration Bureau against the mass deportation that took place on October 18th, 3rd Arts student Dara McHugh was arrested and is due in court on Thursday, October 27th.
Council notes the duty of UCDSU to defend its members and the role of UCDSU in campaigning against deportations.
Council mandates the payment of up to 500 euro towards Dara's legal costs and, if convicted, possible fine.
Council mandates UCDSU members to attend court in solidarity with Dara under the UCDSU banner.

Proposed by Conor McGowan, 4th year Engineering (Mechanical)
Seconded by Darren Cogavin, 3rd Social Science

Time taken to debate motion : 15 mins approx
Time taken to fulfil mandate : Some UCDSU members went to the court in their own time. No paid officer of the union attended.
Cost of motion : Dara's fine amounted to 60 euro.

panda100 wrote:

3)UCDSU condemns the jailing of Willie Corduff, Micheál Ó Seighin, Brendan Philbin, Philip and Vincent McGrath for over 100 days without charge.
UCDSU condemns the operations of the Shell-Statoil companies off the coast of Co. Mayo as it has occurred without a transparent process.
UCDSU calls on the Irish government to immediately release these five men who the wide public support in their campaign to protect their community.
UCDSU also calls on an independent review of not only this case, but also the whole contracting process of oil and gas in this state.
UCDSU mandates that at least one delegate from the union attends the national demonstration in support of the Rossport Five this Saturday.

Proposed : Chris Bond, 1st Arts
Seconded : Niall Dolan, 1st Social Science

Time taken to debate motion : Approx 15 minutes
Time taken to fulfil mandate : I went to the demonstration in my own time, on Saturday.
Cost of motion : 0

panda100 wrote:

Council notes that Collen Construction are the contractors for the new Roebuck Student Residences on the Belfield campus.

Council condemns the jailing of the three bricklayers, Billy McClurg, Andrew Clarke, and Keith Kelly who were protesting in their local community (Ballybrack) against Collen’s use of sub-contractors to reduce wages and conditions and their non-employment of trade union members.

4)Council affirms its support for trade union rights, payment of agreed rates of pay to workers, and quality buildings on-campus.
Council supports protests calling for the release of these workers.
Council mandates the President and the Education Vice-President to
· investigate by the next Council meeting if Collen are using sub-contractors on their Belfield site.
· investigate by the next Council meeting the wage levels being paid by Collen and/or any sub-contractors on their Belfield site.
· insist on trade union rights and oppose sub-contracting on any UCD construction projects at the Governing Authority Buildings Committee.

Proposed by
Oisín Kelly, member for Postgraduate Arts & Celtic Studies and Human Sciences
Seconded by
David Murphy, member for 3rd Year Arts, Group B

Time taken to debate motion : 15 minutes approx
Time taken to fulfil mandate : Mandate was never fulfilled. I am actually not on the Buildings Committee, so it was up to James to find out. As is his habit, he ignored the mandate.
Cost of motion : 0

panda100 wrote:

5)UCDSU and SIPTU have organised a bus to bring demonstrators who are going to the Irish Ferries protest in town tomorrow thursday 3rd of November. We are meeting at the lake at 1pm and getting the bus from the 10 bus stop at 1:20.
At the last meeting of SU council the Union endorsed a motion supporting the Irish ferries workers and the demonstration

Time taken to debate motion : 20 mins approx
Time taken to fulfil mandate : Phonecall to bus company - 5 minutes. Postering - 20 minutes.
Cost of motion : Split with SIPTU, so 50 euro.

Total time taken to debate these motions at council : 1 hr 15 minutes
Estimated total time of SU Council over a period of one year (8 councils at approximately 2.5hrs) : 20 hours.

Total time taken to fulfil these mandates : 35 minutes
Estimated total time that any officer of the Union works (excluding holidays) : 115,200 minutes

Total cost of these motions : 110 euro

I think these figures show, once and for all, and quite clearly, the sheer exaggeration, hyperbole and embellishment of the truth here.

110 euro is a tiny amount of money (especially when we take into account how much is spent on direct UCD student issue campaigns, how much was spent on the UCD ball, how many free tickets were given out for the UCD ball etc) - note, I'm not giving out about the ball, just trying to put things in perspective.

35 minutes is a tiny, tiny amount of time when you consider the combined hours that all the officers work that it is hardly even worthy of discussion.

Anyone who trys to suggest that the Union has been preoccupied this year with non-student issues is talking rubbish, and showing quite clearly what sort of agenda they have.

The facts speak for themselves.

The_Minister

I you panda. That was great.

Mr.Nice Guy

panda100 wrote:

Sorry I forgot to clairfy in my first post that APART from that one meeting I see little else advertised.You will excuse me or any student for missing it on the UCDSU 'blue indymedia'website. Any student who dared go into the newswire section of the website would be so stunned by arguments between left,right,hackish talk etc etc that they woudnt see the thread about that meeting. The open publishing on that website has to go,the boards should be for that,the newswire should be informative (and I dont mean about Joanne Doherty-indymedias for that)

Also It good to see that that was an open meeting.The union needs to be more open and allow students to voice their opinion more. I dont think its right that me or any other student couldnt put forawrd an important motion this year if we wanted to but had to get an elected class rep to forward it for us and then get 'speaking' rights' off another class rep. It doesnt really send out the message that all is welcome.....Especially when we see how well mis-represented we are by the passing of these:

1)
UCDSU Council notes that a new and particularly vicious attack on the basic rights of students and young workers in the form of the CPE has led to a spectacular upsurge of protest and struggle in France.

Council further notes that the so-called "First Employment Contract" (Contrat Première Embauche, or CPE) gives employers the right to sack workers immediately and without any justification over a period of two years. Under this law, any youth that complains about working conditions, joins a union, or displeases his employer in any other way – even if only by falling sick – can be simply sacked on the spot. The employer does not have to give any explanation for his decision.

Council further notes that as of mid-March, 63 out of France's 84 universities were out on strike or staging mass demonstrations. In Paris, several hundred students occupied the Sorbonne University for three days - the first occupation of its type since the famous
rebellion of May 1968. On March 28th, over three million workers took to the streets all over France in protests built by the national students union, UNEF, and the trade unions CGT, CFDT and FO.

Council mandates UCDSU to send a message of solidarity to Bruno Julliard, president of the students' union UNEF, expressing our opposition to the CPE and our support for the strikes and demonstration.

Déjà dix jours de bonheur. The struggle is global. The struggle continues.

Proposed by Conor J. McGowan, 4th Mechanical Engineering
Seconded by Niall Dolan, 2nd Social Science

2)Council notes that UCDSU has an anti-deportation mandate. Council notes that as a result of this mandate, UCDSU established an Anti-Deportation Campaign.
Council notes that at a peaceful ADC blockade at the Garda National Immigration Bureau against the mass deportation that took place on October 18th, 3rd Arts student Dara McHugh was arrested and is due in court on Thursday, October 27th.
Council notes the duty of UCDSU to defend its members and the role of UCDSU in campaigning against deportations.
Council mandates the payment of up to 500 euro towards Dara's legal costs and, if convicted, possible fine.
Council mandates UCDSU members to attend court in solidarity with Dara under the UCDSU banner.

Proposed by Conor McGowan, 4th year Engineering (Mechanical)
Seconded by Darren Cogavin, 3rd Social Science

3)UCDSU condemns the jailing of Willie Corduff, Micheál Ó Seighin, Brendan Philbin, Philip and Vincent McGrath for over 100 days without charge.
UCDSU condemns the operations of the Shell-Statoil companies off the coast of Co. Mayo as it has occurred without a transparent process.
UCDSU calls on the Irish government to immediately release these five men who the wide public support in their campaign to protect their community.
UCDSU also calls on an independent review of not only this case, but also the whole contracting process of oil and gas in this state.
UCDSU mandates that at least one delegate from the union attends the national demonstration in support of the Rossport Five this Saturday.

Proposed : Chris Bond, 1st Arts
Seconded : Niall Dolan, 1st Social Science

Council notes that Collen Construction are the contractors for the new Roebuck Student Residences on the Belfield campus.

Council condemns the jailing of the three bricklayers, Billy McClurg, Andrew Clarke, and Keith Kelly who were protesting in their local community (Ballybrack) against Collen’s use of sub-contractors to reduce wages and conditions and their non-employment of trade union members.

4)Council affirms its support for trade union rights, payment of agreed rates of pay to workers, and quality buildings on-campus.
Council supports protests calling for the release of these workers.
Council mandates the President and the Education Vice-President to
· investigate by the next Council meeting if Collen are using sub-contractors on their Belfield site.
· investigate by the next Council meeting the wage levels being paid by Collen and/or any sub-contractors on their Belfield site.
· insist on trade union rights and oppose sub-contracting on any UCD construction projects at the Governing Authority Buildings Committee.

Proposed by
Oisín Kelly, member for Postgraduate Arts & Celtic Studies and Human Sciences
Seconded by
David Murphy, member for 3rd Year Arts, Group B

5)UCDSU and SIPTU have organised a bus to bring demonstrators who are going to the Irish Ferries protest in town tomorrow thursday 3rd of November. We are meeting at the lake at 1pm and getting the bus from the 10 bus stop at 1:20.
At the last meeting of SU council the Union endorsed a motion supporting the Irish ferries workers and the demonstration


And then defeating such motions as these:

Motion regarding provision of hard copies of past exam papers
Council notes previous availability of past paper booklets in each faculty.
Council further notes, with disappointment, that availability of past papers is now confined to the internet with no back up to computer failure or error in web scanning.
Council mandates the Education Vice-President of UCDSU to do all in her power to reintroduce past paper booklets.
Proposed by Paul Lynam, 1st Social Science
Seconded by Abey Campbell, Postgraduate Science

This post sums up pretty well what has most students pulling their hair out when it comes to UCDSU.

What a load of bullsh*t they get involved in. A pity they aren't as passionate about student issues as they are trade union rights and French "struggles".

Déjà dix jours de bonheur. The struggle is global. The struggle continues.

Dear oh dear.

It seems the struggle for UCDSU to actually be representative of the UCD students continues too.

Leftist lunacy.

The_Minister

Vainglory you are missing the point completely

Vainglory wrote:

Time taken to debate motion : 15 mins approx
Time taken to fulfil mandate : Some UCDSU members went to the court in their own time. No paid officer of the union attended.
Cost of motion : Dara's fine amounted to 60 euro.

Why should we pay €60 to someone who was acting the maggot at a protest?
The same with condeming the French law - its not the money or the time but the fact that you use our voices to do it.

Mr.Nice Guy

Vainglory wrote:

110 euro is a tiny amount of money (especially when we take into account how much is spent on direct UCD student issue campaigns, how much was spent on the UCD ball, how many free tickets were given out for the UCD ball etc) - note, I'm not giving out about the ball, just trying to put things in perspective.

35 minutes is a tiny, tiny amount of time when you consider the combined hours that all the officers work that it is hardly even worthy of discussion.

Anyone who trys to suggest that the Union has been preoccupied this year with non-student issues is talking rubbish, and showing quite clearly what sort of agenda they have.

The facts speak for themselves.

With respect, 110 euro might be a "tiny" amount in your eyes but in my eyes, and I wager the eyes of most, it is still a waste of money.

I have actually worked in SIPTU before on their CIE branch and I know that they have a stressful time but that they take their work seriously.

What is the point then of these UCDSU crusaders if you will deciding to come along and back up SIPTU? It's unnecessary.

Vainglory I know you are a sensible and reasonable person even though I might have different opinions to yours so let me ask you these three questions:

Why is it important in your view for UCDSU to participate in political matters as opposed to concentrating solely on student matters?

Why in your view should UCDSU risk polarising student opinion by participating in such political matters rather than try and stay neutral on matters thus representing all students?

What in your view is needed to improve the standard of UCDSU?

Thanks.

Vainglory

Firespinner wrote:

Vainglory you are missing the point completely


Why should we pay €60 to someone who was acting the maggot at a protest?
The same with condeming the French law - its not the money or the time but the fact that you use our voices to do it.

I am not missing the point entirely. Elisa's point was that the Union spend too much time wasting money on non-student issues and not enough time concentrating on student issues. I have eminently proven that to be false.

The motions themselves are a completely separate issue. If you disagree with them, as Panda obviously does, then that's fine. You can disagree with them as did many members of council. But what you CANNOT do is try to present some sort of scenario whereby the Union is preoccupying itself with non-student issues and prioritising these over student issues. This is NOT TRUE.

I find this hilarious.

Firespinner wrote:

the fact that you use our voices to do it.

The outrage! As is the case with democratic votes, they are generally not unanimous. Almost always there will be somebody who disagreed with any motion at hand, whether it be student issue or non-student issue. Now, unless you want the Union only to campaign on things that the entire Council unanimously agrees on, and throw the whole "democracy" idea in the bin altogether, then that's always going to be the way.

The_Minister

Vainglory wrote:

I am not missing the point entirely. Elisa's point was that the Union spend too much time wasting money on non-student issues and not enough time concentrating on student issues. I have eminently proven that to be false.

Its the fact that its spends time on, and lends its voice to, so many disparate causes that leads people to become angry.

Vainglory wrote:

The outrage! As is the case with democratic votes, they are generally not unanimous. Almost always there will be somebody who disagreed with any motion at hand, whether it be student issue or non-student issue. Now, unless you want the Union only to campaign on things that the entire Council unanimously agrees on, and throw the whole "democracy" idea in the bin altogether, then that's always going to be the way.

I'm not asking for unanimous council rulings but the fact is most students couldn't give a rats about Iraq or French work standards, and the union has no business using they're voices as if they do! The union is meant to represent students not a bunch of hacks. If the majority of students do not care then the union has no business acting.

singingstranger

Firespinner wrote:

I'm not asking for unanimous council rulings but the fact is most students couldn't give a rats about Iraq or French work standards, and the union has no business using they're voices as if they do! The union is meant to represent students not a bunch of hacks. If the majority of students do not care then the union has no business acting.

*feels like broken record*

So then people have to start making sure that their Class Reps do their jobs, and consult their constituents on every motion brought forward.

It really is that simple - the people who are vocal are the people who want the Union to deal with more international issues too. Either more people who oppose them speak up (á la pigeonbutler) or that'll be the way. Reps need to start doing their jobs more, and students on the ground need to make sure that they start doing it.

John_C

I remember when Éamonn Ó'Lionnáin (I think) marched on the Dáil once Bertie told him that he had no business claiming to represent students when more students in UCD probably voted for Fianna Fáil than voted in the SU elections.

Only 10% of students voted in the last SU election and I see that as a problem for the union. Others don't see that as a problem because the people who care enough to get involved are represented.

Untill the union better engages with the majority of students it doesn't have any mandate as a representative organisation and is meerly a service provider.

Mr.Nice Guy

singingstranger wrote:

*feels like broken record*

So then people have to start making sure that their Class Reps do their jobs, and consult their constituents on every motion brought forward.

It really is that simple - the people who are vocal are the people who want the Union to deal with more international issues too. Either more people who oppose them speak up (á la pigeonbutler) or that'll be the way. Reps need to start doing their jobs more, and students on the ground need to make sure that they start doing it.

It's not that simple. The problem isn't the Class Reps, the problem stems from the top.

I don't blame the Class Reps. They are part of a flawed Union dominated by those who wield the Union as a political tool.

Vainglory

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

With respect, 110 euro might be a "tiny" amount in your eyes but in my eyes, and I wager the eyes of most, it is still a waste of money.

Heh. Well, it's nice that you "wager" that in the eyes of "most" it's a waste of money. But the only vote we had on it said that the members of council thought otherwise.

However, and this is very very important...

The point of my post above was not to try and argue that UCDSU should spend time on issues such as the ones detailed in the motions. That's a separate argument and one that we've had many times before.

The point I was making was a refution of Panda's post, which tried to imply that we priorities non-student issues over student issues. There is a dangerous, poisonous group of people who try to propogate this rubbish, and it was an attempt to set the record straight. Yes, we do spend a miniscule amount of time on issues not directly affecting students, and yes we do spend a miniscule amount of money on it. But the amount of time we spend on student issues, and the money we spend on them, is thousands time more than that.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

it is still a waste of money.

I am having to physically restrain myself from giving details of "wastes of money" in other areas of the Union that nobody seems to care about.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Why is it important in your view for UCDSU to participate in political matters as opposed to concentrating solely on student matters?.

In my view, it is important that members of UCDSU are allowed to propose motions about anything they wish the Union to campaign on and have them voted upon. I presume you wouldn't argue that they shouldn't be allowed propose motions?

If those motions are then passed, then it is of course of the utmost importance that the Union acts on them.

If that means (as it has done in some cases) that UCDSU participates in "political" matters, then I think that is absolutely right and proper, and that is democratic.

Also, as has been said before, many student issues are political issues, so your question is quite vague. Grants, fees etc are all political issues.

As for me personally? I have never hidden my opinion that students do not live in a bubble and if the membership of a Students' Union wishes them to campaign on a non-student issue then they have every right to direct the officers that way.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Why in your view should UCDSU risk polarising student opinion by participating in such political matters rather than try and stay neutral on matters thus representing all students?

Hmm, let me answer this with a hypothetical situation. Johnny from 2nd Arts calls to my door. He is quite upset about a "political" issue and wants his Union to get involved. I turn him away, and say that I'm sorry, but we will not represent you on that issue. How is that "representing all students"? We are not representing Johnny the way he wants, anyway.

So how do we decide whether we should represent Johnny on this issue? We have a fair and free debate and vote at Council. Easy. Fair. And the, every student has an equal opportunity to get the Union to represent them the way they want.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

What in your view is needed to improve the standard of UCDSU?

Interesting question.

- UCDSU needs to prioritise. It needs to prioritise campaigning for students whose needs are far, far greater than the need of a student drinking late in the bar one night to get a cheaper ride into town. It may sound harsh, and while I do think the Night Bus was an interesting initiative, I don't think it should be touted as a fantastic achievement of a Union administration when so many students are practically living in poverty, are being exploited as cheap labour in hospitals, and face mounting registration fees every year.
- UCDSU officers need to start respecting democracy and following their mandates.
- UCDSU needs to use its staff officers more effectively.
- UCDSU needs to target black spot areas that never have class reps, e.g. Vet
- And above all, UCDSU needs the participation of its grassroots members, which I believe will only come about if we stop viewing it as a service provider.

singingstranger

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

It's not that simple. The problem isn't the Class Reps, the problem stems from the top.

I don't blame the Class Reps. They are part of a flawed Union dominated by those who wield the Union as a political tool.

Ahem? That's the Class Reps. If these people weren't Class Reps they would have no voting capacity and could only influence by convincing others to vote their way. Which, of course, is not the job of a Class Rep. A Class Rep's job is, constitutionally, to vote as their Constituents mandate them to. The Rep has this constitutional obligation to consult them on the motions being brought to Council (which is why I always had to put out motions as soon as possible after the weeks' notice deadline had passed). The only person, therefore, that a vocal non-Rep can influence for a vote is their own Rep, and this can only be taken with the same weight as everybody else in their constituency. So if Reps were doing the job they were constitutionally obliged to do, the problem would be far, far less.

Also, while I understand the idea that it might be coming from the top, in fairness a Sabbatical Officer can only do what they're mandated to. And mandates come from the Class Reps.

panda100

Vainglory I do find it admirable that you defend the students union so much,I really genuinely do, but as firespinner said you are missing the point completely...Look at the survey(I appreciate the fact its a crude internet one) at the top of this page:Theres 10 people who think the union should keep doing what its doing at the moment and an overwhelming 23 who think its just a service provider or arent really bothered what it is or what its not.

Vainglory wrote:

sent texts and emails to reps about it, asked reps to lecture address their classes,

As I have said before the class reps as they stand at the moment are slowly causing the death of an active union.Now im not saying all but apart from a very few good ones that do make their class aware of things there is lots of classes left without reps,or even worse having an unrepresntative,unelected rep who is doing it for their cv or political agenda.

Vainglory wrote:

Also, Joanne Doherty is a student in UCD. Perhaps you mean Joanne Delaney

YepI meant this one
This motion is on notice for Council, Feb 15th.
Council notes with dismay the recent dismissal of Joanne Delaney, a worker in the Dunnes Stores supermarket in the Ashleaf Shopping Centre, Dublin 12, on the basis of her activity within the workplace on behalf of the MANDATE trade union.

Council further notes that Joanne was dismissed on the pretence that wearing a trade union pin was against uniform policy, despite such detail not being part of the policy.

Council acknowledges that many members of UCD Students' Union are also employees of this particular company. Council reaffirms the right of all members of UCD Students' Union to join and be active within a trade union without fear of intimidation.

Council calls for the immediate reinstatement of Joanne Delaney and recognises the right to join and be active in a trade union as part of the right to freedom of peaceful association as outlined in Article 4.4 of the UCDSU Constitution.

In the context of low levels of trade union membership and the flagrant disregard for workers' rights at many of the companies who employ UCD students, Council mandates the President to instruct the Accommodation and Employment Officer to make contact with Joanne Delaney with a view to hosting a meeting on young workers' rights over the next month, to be addressed by Joanne.

Proposed by Jane Horgan-Jones, Education Vice-President
Seconded by Niall Dolan, 2nd Social Science

That was just a handful of motions I put up earlier,like the one above theres lots more I just dont want to waste anymore space.....which will extend the 1 and 15mins given to these motions.

I suppose it gets my goat that sabbat officers talk about how theres not enough hours in the day to makes sure that every class has a rep or to ensure that the majority of students know about a union event. For anyone who has to study or is involved in extracurricular activites then every hour of your day in UCD is precious and since class reps are all ready giving up so much of their valuble time then an extra half an hour to discuss revolutionay France or construction workers just isnt fair to them.....would this not put any one off running as a class rep??It certainly puts me off for next year.
I want to help STUDENTS not leftist political agendas.

Also the Irish Ferrys protest was on a Thursday, I went to it mysalf as a student in my own capacity. I dont think its right for five elected officers to take a week day off to suppport a cause totally lacking in any connection to UCD or Students.

Vainglory wrote:

'110 euro is a tiny amount of money (especially when we take into account how much is spent on direct UCD student issue campaigns, how much was spent on the UCD ball, how many free tickets were given out for the UCD ball etc) - note, I'm not giving out about the ball, just trying to put things in perspective.'

The fact is that it could have been 550 euro,possibly more.Its funny how the union think of 100 euro as nothing....as a student from Limerick living in Dublin a 100 euro is a heck of a lot and 550 euro or even 150 euro would do a lot more good for students in the student hardship fund then going back to the judicary system.

May I suggest..... The 2hours of counil wasted on leftist politcal motions be channeled into a fundraising meeting for those who need need court fee's payed.

Vainglory wrote:

Anyone who trys to suggest that the Union has been preoccupied this year with non-student issues is talking rubbish, and showing quite clearly what sort of agenda they have.

I have absolutley nothing to gain from saying what im saying about the union on these boards. I only have a loss of being the negative nay sayer,quite possibly losing a boyfriend:D , and making an enemy with the people who waste unions time and money on these matters. So the only sort of agenda I have here is that I want to change that survey at the top the page so theres no more 'meh' column...to make students intrested in the union and be involved in matters that influence them and UCD.

Vainglory

Firespinner wrote:

Its the fact that its spends time on, and lends its voice to, so many disparate causes that leads people to become angry.


I'm not asking for unanimous council rulings but the fact is most students couldn't give a rats about Iraq or French work standards, and the union has no business using they're voices as if they do! The union is meant to represent students not a bunch of hacks. If the majority of students do not care then the union has no business acting.

Key word : IF

Do you know for a fact that they don't? Have you conducted a student wide survey?

Note : I'm not saying that I know for a fact that they do, either. However, what I have, which you don't have, are democratically decided votes on these matters. You have nothing but the benefit of your own meandering experience.

humbert

Any sane minded person who's spent more that five minutes in ucd knows that the vast majority of students don't give a crap about that sort of thing, and shouldn't have to actively prevent the union from misrepresenting them.

Vainglory

panda100 wrote:

Yep I meant this one
This motion is on notice for Council, Feb 15th.
Council notes with dismay the recent dismissal of Joanne Delaney, a worker in the Dunnes Stores supermarket in the Ashleaf Shopping Centre, Dublin 12, on the basis of her activity within the workplace on behalf of the MANDATE trade union.

Council further notes that Joanne was dismissed on the pretence that wearing a trade union pin was against uniform policy, despite such detail not being part of the policy.

Council acknowledges that many members of UCD Students' Union are also employees of this particular company. Council reaffirms the right of all members of UCD Students' Union to join and be active within a trade union without fear of intimidation.

Council calls for the immediate reinstatement of Joanne Delaney and recognises the right to join and be active in a trade union as part of the right to freedom of peaceful association as outlined in Article 4.4 of the UCDSU Constitution.

In the context of low levels of trade union membership and the flagrant disregard for workers' rights at many of the companies who employ UCD students, Council mandates the President to instruct the Accommodation and Employment Officer to make contact with Joanne Delaney with a view to hosting a meeting on young workers' rights over the next month, to be addressed by Joanne.

Proposed by Jane Horgan-Jones, Education Vice-President
Seconded by Niall Dolan, 2nd Social Science

That was just a handful of motions I put up earlier,like the one above theres lots more I just dont want to waste anymore space.....which will extend the 1 and 15mins given to these motions. .

Nope, it wouldn't. Nothing was done on this motion. Joanne Delaney never came to speak to UCD students.

Next.

panda100 wrote:

The fact is that it could have been 550 euro,possibly more.Its funny how the union think of 100 euro as nothing....as a student from Limerick living in Dublin a 100 euro is a heck of a lot and 550 euro or even 150 euro would do a lot more good for students in the student hardship fund then going back to the judicary system.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Do you think 25,000 is a lot of money to lose on one evening?

Student hardship fund = fund for students with unforeseen financial difficulties.
Fine that the student got = unforeseen financial difficulty.

There you go.

Again, this really isn't the substantive issue.

Are you going to take back your insinuations that we prioritise non-student issues over student issues? Or do you still think that's the case?

PS Please answer that question.

humbert

Vainglory wrote:

Student hardship fund = fund for students with unforeseen financial difficulties.
Fine that the student got = unforeseen financial difficulty.

If we're still talking about the guy who was arrested while protesting for being abusive toward a gard that comparison made me feel a little sick.

Vainglory

humbert wrote:

If we're still talking about the guy who was arrested while protesting for being abusive toward a gard that comparison made me feel a little sick.

I was just explaining what the Student Hardship Fund was for. It's for students who experience unforseen financial difficulties. It's not for "students who experience unforeseen financial difficulties, but only when we agree with their politics."

singingstranger

Vainglory wrote:

Student hardship fund = fund for students with unforeseen financial difficulties.
Fine that the student got = unforeseen financial difficulty.

Just a thought, Jane: say I'm caught speeding on the way out to a friend's house. I get my penalty points and an €80 fine. As I could not possibly have budgeted for being caught speeding and that this €80 is therefore unforseen financial difficulty, would you agree with Council authorising an €80 payment towards the fine?

panda100

Vainglory wrote:

In my view, it is important that members of UCDSU are allowed to propose motions about anything they wish the Union to campaign on and have them voted upon. I presume you wouldn't argue that they shouldn't be allowed propose motions?

Yes .....if they are class reps that have been class reps in their class for more than one year and ones that havent been voted in by a majority vote in their class(Amy Morgan ,a girl in my class was just added to have someone down on the list two years ago) We all are in agreement that class reps are important and yet it at the moment it isnt working. People arent getting lecture adrresess and regular updates from there class reps. Im sure the three days for class training,the day off for the Irish ferries protest and the couple of hours spent on non student motions and sending in solidarity email/phone calls should be utilised in making sure EVERY class is represented properly,instead of hearing theres 20,000 students and not enought time blah blah...

Vainglory wrote:

It may sound harsh, and while I do think the Night Bus was an interesting initiative, I don't think it should be touted as a fantastic achievement of a Union administration when so many students are practically living in poverty,

But I thought 150 euro was 'nothing' to the union.If so Why dont they help these people living in poverty if a 150 euro is easily spent by the union and 150 euro will easily go a lon way for someone living in poverty.....As I said before Jimmy Carrols nightbus is looked down on for being not as important as 'grants','war in iraq' etc etc. The year I lived in Belgrove I often had to walk back from the clonskeagh gate by myself at 4 in the morning cos I missed the nightlink,and could only afford the taxi to the back gate. Im sure this happens to loadsa poor students like myself.Yet the year I was living in Belgrove what did the union do......run the coke referendum....twice.....!So fair play to James Carroll for brinign in something that really help a lot of students...I dont think he should be knocked for that.

panda100

humbert wrote:

If we're still talking about the guy who was arrested while protesting for being abusive toward a gard that comparison made me feel a little sick.

Totally agree...is the student hardship fund really misused in this way??

I know a guy in DCU that was attacked last home froma night out(he only drinks water:) )....he ended up in hospital and was alreay living on a grant for 100 euro a week so he lost all his money for that week as two guys stole it. I was under the illusion the student hardship fund should be used for bailing people like him out for the week.Thats REAL studnt hardship,not somone who knowingly goes into a protest and acts in an unlawful manner.

humbert

If I remember correctly you were a major proponent of the coke bannage???
I also don't think it fair to draw a parallel between what the SU considers a trivial sum and what the average student considers a trivial sum. It's just the principal of the thing that bothers me.

singingstranger

panda100 wrote:

Totally agree...is the student hardship fund really misused in this way??

I know a guy in DCU that was attacked last home froma night out(he only drinks water:) )....he ended up in hospital and was alreay living on a grant for 100 euro a week so he lost all his money for that week as two guys stole it. I was under the illusion the student hardship fund should be used for bailing people like him out for the week.Thats REAL studnt hardship,not somone who knowingly goes into a protest and acts in an unlawful manner.

Further to this, the money mandated to be paid to him wasn't even mandated to come out of the Student Hardship Fund. All applicants to this are private. I know it's a highly tenuous situation and tbh I'd be personally very surprised if the guy in question was to do it, but there's nothing stopping people from applying for SWF payouts and still looking for Council to bail them out of a fine, even though a legally incurred fine causes unforseeable financial difficulty.

pigeonbutler

humbert wrote:

If I remember correctly you were a major proponent of the coke bannage???
I also don't think it fair to draw a parallel between what the SU considers a trivial sum and what the average student considers a trivial sum. It's just the principal of the thing that bothers me.

Not as such. I wasn't around back in the day but I've heard Jane wasn't always as anti-Coke as she is now.

Want to tell them about "Coke for the Communists" Vainglory?

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but the question was raised.

Well maybe I'm being a little bit of an asshole

humbert

pigeonbutler wrote:

Not as such. I wasn't around back in the day but I've heard Jane wasn't always as anti-Coke as she is now.

Want to tell them about "Coke for the Communists" Vainglory?

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but the question was raised.

Well maybe I'm being a little bit of an asshole

That's interesting:) But I was refering to panda!

Mr.Nice Guy

Vainglory wrote:

In my view, it is important that members of UCDSU are allowed to propose motions about anything they wish the Union to campaign on and have them voted upon. I presume you wouldn't argue that they shouldn't be allowed propose motions?

They should be allowed propose motions that are relevant to student matters.

Vainglory wrote:

If that means (as it has done in some cases) that UCDSU participates in "political" matters, then I think that is absolutely right and proper, and that is democratic.

I think that's a poor argument. If Dáil Eireann passes a motion giving themselves 50% salary increases and more time off, that might be democratic but it doesn't make it relevant to running the country.

Why can't motions be concentrated on non-political student matters?

Vainglory wrote:

As for me personally? I have never hidden my opinion that students do not live in a bubble and if the membership of a Students' Union wishes them to campaign on a non-student issue then they have every right to direct the officers that way.

But why is it important?

Vainglory wrote:

Hmm, let me answer this with a hypothetical situation. Johnny from 2nd Arts calls to my door. He is quite upset about a "political" issue and wants his Union to get involved. I turn him away, and say that I'm sorry, but we will not represent you on that issue. How is that "representing all students"? We are not representing Johnny the way he wants, anyway.

Tell "Johnny" to go and join one of the many political societies on offer in UCD. Labour, Fine Gael, Fiann Fáil, World Aid Soc maybe even Amnesty International. Why does "Johnny" need to go to a student union to solve a political issue do you think?

Vainglory wrote:

So how do we decide whether we should represent Johnny on this issue? We have a fair and free debate and vote at Council. Easy. Fair. And the, every student has an equal opportunity to get the Union to represent them the way they want.

I see. So let me use a hypothetical situation. Let's say "Johnny" is a socialist/marxist (insert as required) and feels very strongly about a group in Cambodia who are being discriminated against. He puts this forward to the Council, who conveniently enough are made up of sociliasts/marxists (insert as required) and they then decide to vote to back "Johnny"'s little crusade...that's acceptable in your eyes? When the guy can take his political problem elsewhere?

In what possible sense is this the job of a student union?

In relation to what you think should be improved, you said what I pretty much expected you to but I would like to see UCDSU figures acknowledge the growing sense of disillusionment that is felt towards UCDSU as a whole.

I feel so much more could be done but it seems to me that the union itself is poisoned by the extreme fringe that engulfs it.

I'd like to see more of the 'End the Rip-off campus' stuff and less of the 'End the occupation of Iraq' stuff.

The_Minister

Vainglory wrote:

Do you know for a fact that they don't? Have you conducted a student wide survey?
Note : I'm not saying that I know for a fact that they do, either. However, what I have, which you don't have, are democratically decided votes on these matters. You have nothing but the benefit of your own meandering experience.

You are kidding yourself if you think the average UCD student cares about that stuff. Hear are some comments that I've heard from D4's over the last while
"Why do we give our coke to the Cambodians?"
"I don't really care about the war in Iraq but I don't know why they're attacking it, its just another African dictatorship"
"Don't talk to me about politics"
"Chavez he's a footballer ain't he?"
and repeatedly:
"Who's Kofi Annan?"

Most students are political ignorami, they really don't care. Most don't even know who they will vote for.

Blowfish

Firespinner wrote:

Most students are political ignorami, they really don't care. Most don't even know who they will vote for.

More like most won't vote. (and yes i'm included in this)

hullaballoo

Firespinner wrote:

You are kidding yourself if you think the average UCD student cares about that stuff. Hear are some comments that I've heard from D4's over the last while
"Why do we give our coke to the Cambodians?"
"I don't really care about the war in Iraq but I don't know why they're attacking it, its just another African dictatorship"
"Don't talk to me about politics"
"Chavez he's a footballer ain't he?"
and repeatedly:
"Who's Kofi Annan?"

Most students are political ignorami, they really don't care. Most don't even know who they will vote for.

Just the D4s then? I'd find it hard to believe that only people from D4 are politically ignorant.

I also don't see why anyone should look down on somebody else just because they don't care about politics. Perhaps they realise the futility of it all, and that it doesn't matter who you vote for, you'll just get another four years of the same things not being done.

Perhaps, they just aren't interested in politics. I don't have any particular interest in accounting, but I wouldn't expect an accountant to come out with a scathing comment about my intellect, such as was implicit in that post, on foot of the fact that I struggle with double entry.

The_Minister

hullaballoo wrote:

Just the D4s then? I'd find it hard to believe that only people from D4 are politically ignorant.

D4's tend to say it funnier, but you're right ignorance is global.

hullaballoo wrote:

I also don't see why anyone should look down on somebody else just because they don't care about politics. Perhaps they realise the futility of it all, and that it doesn't matter who you vote for, you'll just get another four years of the same things not being done.


Perhaps, they just aren't interested in politics. I don't have any particular interest in accounting, but I wouldn't expect an accountant to come out with a scathing comment about my intellect, such as was implicit in that post, on foot of the fact that I struggle with double entry.

I do not look down on people for not keeping up with politics (as you say different strokes), I just thought those quotes were humerous. Saying that I believe that everyone should know who the Taoiseach, Tanaiste and Minister for justice are.


Whats double entry?

EDIT: Just give me a hint - is it something dirty?

hullaballoo

FireSpinner wrote:

What's double entry

You don't want to know.

The matters of student politics are for some, and not for others. Personally, I don't see that they affect me to a great extent, but I'd still vote if I thought it would mean that some issues would come to the fore.

Diorraing

panda100 wrote:

I fundamentally agree with a campaigning union.I think it would be a sad day for society if students ceased all activism but It depends what type of activism they are engaging in. I would be one of the first to run down O'Connel street naked in protest to the introduction of fee's and I think most students would too. Fee's is a really important issue that affects most of the students in UCD.

Yeah, like the €63 we piss away on the SU every year. Does anyone know if you can leave the UCDSU. I know you have a constitutional right to disassociate yourself from organisations. I know a lot of people who would be glad to leave the SU.

Blowfish

Diorraing wrote:

Yeah, like the €63 we piss away on the SU every year. Does anyone know if you can leave the UCDSU. I know you have a constitutional right to disassociate yourself from organisations. I know a lot of people who would be glad to leave the SU.

Same here, there are plenty of people who would want to leave, it was discussed here, with the end result being that legally you have to be able to leave, but in reality it's a pretty difficult thing to do.

singingstranger

Diorraing wrote:

Yeah, like the €63 we piss away on the SU every year. Does anyone know if you can leave the UCDSU. I know you have a constitutional right to disassociate yourself from organisations. I know a lot of people who would be glad to leave the SU.

Two points:

1) As has been stated over and over again, the Union doesn't get €63.50 of your money; that goes straight to a University-taken mortgage to pay for the Student Centre, as approved by a Student body referendum in 1998. So blame today's young workforce if you're annoyed with that. The Union itself is funded by €16-odd from your registration fee, but no University admin can provide a fully accurate breakdown as to how much exactly the Union receives. €5 of this then goes to pay every full-time students' affiliation to USI, so in reality UCDSU gets about €11 of your money to operate on.

2) Obviously nobody has ever tried to go down the legal avenue of going to court to disassociate but pigeonbutler made a very good post on the thread that Blowfish just referenced, which is here.

anonymous_joe

A lot of people have said that the student body should register their dissaproval with the current state of affairs. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say they have. We call it apathy.

I voted once this year in UCD, for my class rep. The person I voted for I was assured was a sound bloke. (As indeed he is) That's the only reason I voted. I didn't have a notion as to what the position entailed.

The biggest issue many seem to have with the Union is their stances on issues that have nothing to do with the welfare of the student's they represent. Now, as young Firespinner can attest, I'd generally be centre-left on most issues, socially generally more left, while economically etc more centrist. In short, I agree with many of the positions the Union has taken, but, I was never, ever consulted about this. Some may say that by voting in class reps and sabbats we agreed to let the Union represent us, but I think that's bull****. That simple. Hardly anyone could have been arsed voting. I have little intention of ever voting in a Sabbat election, or anything of that type. Why? I couldn't give a flying ****. I don't see a Union that will ever represent me. Should I do something about it? Meh. I'll be gone from UCD (hopefully) in a couple of years.

Blowfish

Exactly anonymous_joe. When will the SU realise that the students have actually shown their disaproval. The students have voted with their apathy.
If there was an option whether or not to pay for the services provided, how many would actually pay it?

anonymous_joe

I like Coke so count me out. Oh and I can get food on my way home.

I'll say one thing though, can't argue with the 70c Irish Times. That rocks.

pigeonbutler

Blowfish wrote:

Exactly anonymous_joe. When will the SU realise that the students have actually shown their disaproval. The students have voted with their apathy.
If there was an option whether or not to pay for the services provided, how many would actually pay it?

Very few. Economically this is described as a free rider problem. Many of the services UCDSU provides are "pure public goods". Voluntary charges cannot fund pure public goods because non-payers cannot be excluded from the service.

The best example is National Defence. If taxes were voluntary everyone would still benefit from national defence regardless of whether they paid taxes. Thus people being rational (basic principle of economics) they wouldn't pay.

anonymous_joe

anonymous_joe wrote:

A lot of people have said that the student body should register their dissaproval with the current state of affairs. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say they have. We call it apathy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Sabbatical Elections have the highest turnout over the past number of years?

humbert

Myth wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Sabbatical Elections have the highest turnout over the past number of years?

And what was that, about 10%?, in other words people haven't given't a shit for ages!

pigeonbutler

humbert wrote:

And what was that, about 10%?, in other words people haven't given't a shit for ages!

No. More like 25% (very approx figure!) The programme Officer elections had 10% (controversially).

humbert

humbert wrote:

And what was that, about 10%?, in other words people haven't given't a shit for ages!

c. 4,400 / c. 22,000 = 20%. My point is that the turnout has increased this year, contradicting the point that was made previously about the student body having registered their disapproval with 'the current state of affairs.'

Now I know I'm looking at the glass half full, and ignoring that 80% of the student body did not vote. Look elsewhere throughout the country, particularly at the University Sector (for numbers alone - as the smaller a student body gets, the more on-campus coverage a sabbatical officer can achieve), and the turnouts are nearly similar, if not lower. Apathy is something that is apparent everywhere in life, not just in an SU. Plus there are other questions: How many evening students are there? How many postgraduates? How many off-campus students where the polling times weren't substantial enough? Do these have an effect on the turnout?

By the way, I think there should be an Internet Law in that any mention of Coke or Nestlé in the backing up of an argument which refers to what an SU does renders the argument null and void. Reason being is that several times (here in Trinity) I've noticed that a lot of students believe that all the SU does is boycott Coke & Nestlé. I know a lot of people are dissatisfied with what UCD,DSU does in relation to what are peceived to be non-student issues, and I'm not going to do the patronising thing of 'get involved! Change it yourself!' etc. However, what I will say is that next year when the hustings are happening, it may be an idea to ask the candidates yourselves what stance they will take on the above non-student issues, so that you can get the representatives that you want.

Perhaps I'm way off the mark, but either way I'll take off my idealistic hat now.