UCDSU Union or Service Provider?

Mr.Nice Guy

panda100 wrote:

Sorry I forgot to clairfy in my first post that APART from that one meeting I see little else advertised.You will excuse me or any student for missing it on the UCDSU 'blue indymedia'website. Any student who dared go into the newswire section of the website would be so stunned by arguments between left,right,hackish talk etc etc that they woudnt see the thread about that meeting. The open publishing on that website has to go,the boards should be for that,the newswire should be informative (and I dont mean about Joanne Doherty-indymedias for that)

Also It good to see that that was an open meeting.The union needs to be more open and allow students to voice their opinion more. I dont think its right that me or any other student couldnt put forawrd an important motion this year if we wanted to but had to get an elected class rep to forward it for us and then get 'speaking' rights' off another class rep. It doesnt really send out the message that all is welcome.....Especially when we see how well mis-represented we are by the passing of these:

1)
UCDSU Council notes that a new and particularly vicious attack on the basic rights of students and young workers in the form of the CPE has led to a spectacular upsurge of protest and struggle in France.

Council further notes that the so-called "First Employment Contract" (Contrat Première Embauche, or CPE) gives employers the right to sack workers immediately and without any justification over a period of two years. Under this law, any youth that complains about working conditions, joins a union, or displeases his employer in any other way – even if only by falling sick – can be simply sacked on the spot. The employer does not have to give any explanation for his decision.

Council further notes that as of mid-March, 63 out of France's 84 universities were out on strike or staging mass demonstrations. In Paris, several hundred students occupied the Sorbonne University for three days - the first occupation of its type since the famous
rebellion of May 1968. On March 28th, over three million workers took to the streets all over France in protests built by the national students union, UNEF, and the trade unions CGT, CFDT and FO.

Council mandates UCDSU to send a message of solidarity to Bruno Julliard, president of the students' union UNEF, expressing our opposition to the CPE and our support for the strikes and demonstration.

Déjà dix jours de bonheur. The struggle is global. The struggle continues.

Proposed by Conor J. McGowan, 4th Mechanical Engineering
Seconded by Niall Dolan, 2nd Social Science

2)Council notes that UCDSU has an anti-deportation mandate. Council notes that as a result of this mandate, UCDSU established an Anti-Deportation Campaign.
Council notes that at a peaceful ADC blockade at the Garda National Immigration Bureau against the mass deportation that took place on October 18th, 3rd Arts student Dara McHugh was arrested and is due in court on Thursday, October 27th.
Council notes the duty of UCDSU to defend its members and the role of UCDSU in campaigning against deportations.
Council mandates the payment of up to 500 euro towards Dara's legal costs and, if convicted, possible fine.
Council mandates UCDSU members to attend court in solidarity with Dara under the UCDSU banner.

Proposed by Conor McGowan, 4th year Engineering (Mechanical)
Seconded by Darren Cogavin, 3rd Social Science

3)UCDSU condemns the jailing of Willie Corduff, Micheál Ó Seighin, Brendan Philbin, Philip and Vincent McGrath for over 100 days without charge.
UCDSU condemns the operations of the Shell-Statoil companies off the coast of Co. Mayo as it has occurred without a transparent process.
UCDSU calls on the Irish government to immediately release these five men who the wide public support in their campaign to protect their community.
UCDSU also calls on an independent review of not only this case, but also the whole contracting process of oil and gas in this state.
UCDSU mandates that at least one delegate from the union attends the national demonstration in support of the Rossport Five this Saturday.

Proposed : Chris Bond, 1st Arts
Seconded : Niall Dolan, 1st Social Science

Council notes that Collen Construction are the contractors for the new Roebuck Student Residences on the Belfield campus.

Council condemns the jailing of the three bricklayers, Billy McClurg, Andrew Clarke, and Keith Kelly who were protesting in their local community (Ballybrack) against Collen’s use of sub-contractors to reduce wages and conditions and their non-employment of trade union members.

4)Council affirms its support for trade union rights, payment of agreed rates of pay to workers, and quality buildings on-campus.
Council supports protests calling for the release of these workers.
Council mandates the President and the Education Vice-President to
· investigate by the next Council meeting if Collen are using sub-contractors on their Belfield site.
· investigate by the next Council meeting the wage levels being paid by Collen and/or any sub-contractors on their Belfield site.
· insist on trade union rights and oppose sub-contracting on any UCD construction projects at the Governing Authority Buildings Committee.

Proposed by
Oisín Kelly, member for Postgraduate Arts & Celtic Studies and Human Sciences
Seconded by
David Murphy, member for 3rd Year Arts, Group B

5)UCDSU and SIPTU have organised a bus to bring demonstrators who are going to the Irish Ferries protest in town tomorrow thursday 3rd of November. We are meeting at the lake at 1pm and getting the bus from the 10 bus stop at 1:20.
At the last meeting of SU council the Union endorsed a motion supporting the Irish ferries workers and the demonstration


And then defeating such motions as these:

Motion regarding provision of hard copies of past exam papers
Council notes previous availability of past paper booklets in each faculty.
Council further notes, with disappointment, that availability of past papers is now confined to the internet with no back up to computer failure or error in web scanning.
Council mandates the Education Vice-President of UCDSU to do all in her power to reintroduce past paper booklets.
Proposed by Paul Lynam, 1st Social Science
Seconded by Abey Campbell, Postgraduate Science

This post sums up pretty well what has most students pulling their hair out when it comes to UCDSU.

What a load of bullsh*t they get involved in. A pity they aren't as passionate about student issues as they are trade union rights and French "struggles".

Déjà dix jours de bonheur. The struggle is global. The struggle continues.

Dear oh dear.

It seems the struggle for UCDSU to actually be representative of the UCD students continues too.

Leftist lunacy.

The_Minister

Vainglory you are missing the point completely

Vainglory wrote:

Time taken to debate motion : 15 mins approx
Time taken to fulfil mandate : Some UCDSU members went to the court in their own time. No paid officer of the union attended.
Cost of motion : Dara's fine amounted to 60 euro.

Why should we pay €60 to someone who was acting the maggot at a protest?
The same with condeming the French law - its not the money or the time but the fact that you use our voices to do it.

Mr.Nice Guy

Vainglory wrote:

110 euro is a tiny amount of money (especially when we take into account how much is spent on direct UCD student issue campaigns, how much was spent on the UCD ball, how many free tickets were given out for the UCD ball etc) - note, I'm not giving out about the ball, just trying to put things in perspective.

35 minutes is a tiny, tiny amount of time when you consider the combined hours that all the officers work that it is hardly even worthy of discussion.

Anyone who trys to suggest that the Union has been preoccupied this year with non-student issues is talking rubbish, and showing quite clearly what sort of agenda they have.

The facts speak for themselves.

With respect, 110 euro might be a "tiny" amount in your eyes but in my eyes, and I wager the eyes of most, it is still a waste of money.

I have actually worked in SIPTU before on their CIE branch and I know that they have a stressful time but that they take their work seriously.

What is the point then of these UCDSU crusaders if you will deciding to come along and back up SIPTU? It's unnecessary.

Vainglory I know you are a sensible and reasonable person even though I might have different opinions to yours so let me ask you these three questions:

Why is it important in your view for UCDSU to participate in political matters as opposed to concentrating solely on student matters?

Why in your view should UCDSU risk polarising student opinion by participating in such political matters rather than try and stay neutral on matters thus representing all students?

What in your view is needed to improve the standard of UCDSU?

Thanks.

Vainglory

Firespinner wrote:

Vainglory you are missing the point completely


Why should we pay €60 to someone who was acting the maggot at a protest?
The same with condeming the French law - its not the money or the time but the fact that you use our voices to do it.

I am not missing the point entirely. Elisa's point was that the Union spend too much time wasting money on non-student issues and not enough time concentrating on student issues. I have eminently proven that to be false.

The motions themselves are a completely separate issue. If you disagree with them, as Panda obviously does, then that's fine. You can disagree with them as did many members of council. But what you CANNOT do is try to present some sort of scenario whereby the Union is preoccupying itself with non-student issues and prioritising these over student issues. This is NOT TRUE.

I find this hilarious.

Firespinner wrote:

the fact that you use our voices to do it.

The outrage! As is the case with democratic votes, they are generally not unanimous. Almost always there will be somebody who disagreed with any motion at hand, whether it be student issue or non-student issue. Now, unless you want the Union only to campaign on things that the entire Council unanimously agrees on, and throw the whole "democracy" idea in the bin altogether, then that's always going to be the way.

The_Minister

Vainglory wrote:

I am not missing the point entirely. Elisa's point was that the Union spend too much time wasting money on non-student issues and not enough time concentrating on student issues. I have eminently proven that to be false.

Its the fact that its spends time on, and lends its voice to, so many disparate causes that leads people to become angry.

Vainglory wrote:

The outrage! As is the case with democratic votes, they are generally not unanimous. Almost always there will be somebody who disagreed with any motion at hand, whether it be student issue or non-student issue. Now, unless you want the Union only to campaign on things that the entire Council unanimously agrees on, and throw the whole "democracy" idea in the bin altogether, then that's always going to be the way.

I'm not asking for unanimous council rulings but the fact is most students couldn't give a rats about Iraq or French work standards, and the union has no business using they're voices as if they do! The union is meant to represent students not a bunch of hacks. If the majority of students do not care then the union has no business acting.

singingstranger

Firespinner wrote:

I'm not asking for unanimous council rulings but the fact is most students couldn't give a rats about Iraq or French work standards, and the union has no business using they're voices as if they do! The union is meant to represent students not a bunch of hacks. If the majority of students do not care then the union has no business acting.

*feels like broken record*

So then people have to start making sure that their Class Reps do their jobs, and consult their constituents on every motion brought forward.

It really is that simple - the people who are vocal are the people who want the Union to deal with more international issues too. Either more people who oppose them speak up (á la pigeonbutler) or that'll be the way. Reps need to start doing their jobs more, and students on the ground need to make sure that they start doing it.

John_C

I remember when Éamonn Ó'Lionnáin (I think) marched on the Dáil once Bertie told him that he had no business claiming to represent students when more students in UCD probably voted for Fianna Fáil than voted in the SU elections.

Only 10% of students voted in the last SU election and I see that as a problem for the union. Others don't see that as a problem because the people who care enough to get involved are represented.

Untill the union better engages with the majority of students it doesn't have any mandate as a representative organisation and is meerly a service provider.

Mr.Nice Guy

singingstranger wrote:

*feels like broken record*

So then people have to start making sure that their Class Reps do their jobs, and consult their constituents on every motion brought forward.

It really is that simple - the people who are vocal are the people who want the Union to deal with more international issues too. Either more people who oppose them speak up (á la pigeonbutler) or that'll be the way. Reps need to start doing their jobs more, and students on the ground need to make sure that they start doing it.

It's not that simple. The problem isn't the Class Reps, the problem stems from the top.

I don't blame the Class Reps. They are part of a flawed Union dominated by those who wield the Union as a political tool.

Vainglory

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

With respect, 110 euro might be a "tiny" amount in your eyes but in my eyes, and I wager the eyes of most, it is still a waste of money.

Heh. Well, it's nice that you "wager" that in the eyes of "most" it's a waste of money. But the only vote we had on it said that the members of council thought otherwise.

However, and this is very very important...

The point of my post above was not to try and argue that UCDSU should spend time on issues such as the ones detailed in the motions. That's a separate argument and one that we've had many times before.

The point I was making was a refution of Panda's post, which tried to imply that we priorities non-student issues over student issues. There is a dangerous, poisonous group of people who try to propogate this rubbish, and it was an attempt to set the record straight. Yes, we do spend a miniscule amount of time on issues not directly affecting students, and yes we do spend a miniscule amount of money on it. But the amount of time we spend on student issues, and the money we spend on them, is thousands time more than that.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

it is still a waste of money.

I am having to physically restrain myself from giving details of "wastes of money" in other areas of the Union that nobody seems to care about.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Why is it important in your view for UCDSU to participate in political matters as opposed to concentrating solely on student matters?.

In my view, it is important that members of UCDSU are allowed to propose motions about anything they wish the Union to campaign on and have them voted upon. I presume you wouldn't argue that they shouldn't be allowed propose motions?

If those motions are then passed, then it is of course of the utmost importance that the Union acts on them.

If that means (as it has done in some cases) that UCDSU participates in "political" matters, then I think that is absolutely right and proper, and that is democratic.

Also, as has been said before, many student issues are political issues, so your question is quite vague. Grants, fees etc are all political issues.

As for me personally? I have never hidden my opinion that students do not live in a bubble and if the membership of a Students' Union wishes them to campaign on a non-student issue then they have every right to direct the officers that way.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Why in your view should UCDSU risk polarising student opinion by participating in such political matters rather than try and stay neutral on matters thus representing all students?

Hmm, let me answer this with a hypothetical situation. Johnny from 2nd Arts calls to my door. He is quite upset about a "political" issue and wants his Union to get involved. I turn him away, and say that I'm sorry, but we will not represent you on that issue. How is that "representing all students"? We are not representing Johnny the way he wants, anyway.

So how do we decide whether we should represent Johnny on this issue? We have a fair and free debate and vote at Council. Easy. Fair. And the, every student has an equal opportunity to get the Union to represent them the way they want.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

What in your view is needed to improve the standard of UCDSU?

Interesting question.

- UCDSU needs to prioritise. It needs to prioritise campaigning for students whose needs are far, far greater than the need of a student drinking late in the bar one night to get a cheaper ride into town. It may sound harsh, and while I do think the Night Bus was an interesting initiative, I don't think it should be touted as a fantastic achievement of a Union administration when so many students are practically living in poverty, are being exploited as cheap labour in hospitals, and face mounting registration fees every year.
- UCDSU officers need to start respecting democracy and following their mandates.
- UCDSU needs to use its staff officers more effectively.
- UCDSU needs to target black spot areas that never have class reps, e.g. Vet
- And above all, UCDSU needs the participation of its grassroots members, which I believe will only come about if we stop viewing it as a service provider.

singingstranger

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

It's not that simple. The problem isn't the Class Reps, the problem stems from the top.

I don't blame the Class Reps. They are part of a flawed Union dominated by those who wield the Union as a political tool.

Ahem? That's the Class Reps. If these people weren't Class Reps they would have no voting capacity and could only influence by convincing others to vote their way. Which, of course, is not the job of a Class Rep. A Class Rep's job is, constitutionally, to vote as their Constituents mandate them to. The Rep has this constitutional obligation to consult them on the motions being brought to Council (which is why I always had to put out motions as soon as possible after the weeks' notice deadline had passed). The only person, therefore, that a vocal non-Rep can influence for a vote is their own Rep, and this can only be taken with the same weight as everybody else in their constituency. So if Reps were doing the job they were constitutionally obliged to do, the problem would be far, far less.

Also, while I understand the idea that it might be coming from the top, in fairness a Sabbatical Officer can only do what they're mandated to. And mandates come from the Class Reps.

panda100

Vainglory I do find it admirable that you defend the students union so much,I really genuinely do, but as firespinner said you are missing the point completely...Look at the survey(I appreciate the fact its a crude internet one) at the top of this page:Theres 10 people who think the union should keep doing what its doing at the moment and an overwhelming 23 who think its just a service provider or arent really bothered what it is or what its not.

Vainglory wrote:

sent texts and emails to reps about it, asked reps to lecture address their classes,

As I have said before the class reps as they stand at the moment are slowly causing the death of an active union.Now im not saying all but apart from a very few good ones that do make their class aware of things there is lots of classes left without reps,or even worse having an unrepresntative,unelected rep who is doing it for their cv or political agenda.

Vainglory wrote:

Also, Joanne Doherty is a student in UCD. Perhaps you mean Joanne Delaney

YepI meant this one
This motion is on notice for Council, Feb 15th.
Council notes with dismay the recent dismissal of Joanne Delaney, a worker in the Dunnes Stores supermarket in the Ashleaf Shopping Centre, Dublin 12, on the basis of her activity within the workplace on behalf of the MANDATE trade union.

Council further notes that Joanne was dismissed on the pretence that wearing a trade union pin was against uniform policy, despite such detail not being part of the policy.

Council acknowledges that many members of UCD Students' Union are also employees of this particular company. Council reaffirms the right of all members of UCD Students' Union to join and be active within a trade union without fear of intimidation.

Council calls for the immediate reinstatement of Joanne Delaney and recognises the right to join and be active in a trade union as part of the right to freedom of peaceful association as outlined in Article 4.4 of the UCDSU Constitution.

In the context of low levels of trade union membership and the flagrant disregard for workers' rights at many of the companies who employ UCD students, Council mandates the President to instruct the Accommodation and Employment Officer to make contact with Joanne Delaney with a view to hosting a meeting on young workers' rights over the next month, to be addressed by Joanne.

Proposed by Jane Horgan-Jones, Education Vice-President
Seconded by Niall Dolan, 2nd Social Science

That was just a handful of motions I put up earlier,like the one above theres lots more I just dont want to waste anymore space.....which will extend the 1 and 15mins given to these motions.

I suppose it gets my goat that sabbat officers talk about how theres not enough hours in the day to makes sure that every class has a rep or to ensure that the majority of students know about a union event. For anyone who has to study or is involved in extracurricular activites then every hour of your day in UCD is precious and since class reps are all ready giving up so much of their valuble time then an extra half an hour to discuss revolutionay France or construction workers just isnt fair to them.....would this not put any one off running as a class rep??It certainly puts me off for next year.
I want to help STUDENTS not leftist political agendas.

Also the Irish Ferrys protest was on a Thursday, I went to it mysalf as a student in my own capacity. I dont think its right for five elected officers to take a week day off to suppport a cause totally lacking in any connection to UCD or Students.

Vainglory wrote:

'110 euro is a tiny amount of money (especially when we take into account how much is spent on direct UCD student issue campaigns, how much was spent on the UCD ball, how many free tickets were given out for the UCD ball etc) - note, I'm not giving out about the ball, just trying to put things in perspective.'

The fact is that it could have been 550 euro,possibly more.Its funny how the union think of 100 euro as nothing....as a student from Limerick living in Dublin a 100 euro is a heck of a lot and 550 euro or even 150 euro would do a lot more good for students in the student hardship fund then going back to the judicary system.

May I suggest..... The 2hours of counil wasted on leftist politcal motions be channeled into a fundraising meeting for those who need need court fee's payed.

Vainglory wrote:

Anyone who trys to suggest that the Union has been preoccupied this year with non-student issues is talking rubbish, and showing quite clearly what sort of agenda they have.

I have absolutley nothing to gain from saying what im saying about the union on these boards. I only have a loss of being the negative nay sayer,quite possibly losing a boyfriend:D , and making an enemy with the people who waste unions time and money on these matters. So the only sort of agenda I have here is that I want to change that survey at the top the page so theres no more 'meh' column...to make students intrested in the union and be involved in matters that influence them and UCD.

Vainglory

Firespinner wrote:

Its the fact that its spends time on, and lends its voice to, so many disparate causes that leads people to become angry.


I'm not asking for unanimous council rulings but the fact is most students couldn't give a rats about Iraq or French work standards, and the union has no business using they're voices as if they do! The union is meant to represent students not a bunch of hacks. If the majority of students do not care then the union has no business acting.

Key word : IF

Do you know for a fact that they don't? Have you conducted a student wide survey?

Note : I'm not saying that I know for a fact that they do, either. However, what I have, which you don't have, are democratically decided votes on these matters. You have nothing but the benefit of your own meandering experience.

humbert

Any sane minded person who's spent more that five minutes in ucd knows that the vast majority of students don't give a crap about that sort of thing, and shouldn't have to actively prevent the union from misrepresenting them.

Vainglory

panda100 wrote:

Yep I meant this one
This motion is on notice for Council, Feb 15th.
Council notes with dismay the recent dismissal of Joanne Delaney, a worker in the Dunnes Stores supermarket in the Ashleaf Shopping Centre, Dublin 12, on the basis of her activity within the workplace on behalf of the MANDATE trade union.

Council further notes that Joanne was dismissed on the pretence that wearing a trade union pin was against uniform policy, despite such detail not being part of the policy.

Council acknowledges that many members of UCD Students' Union are also employees of this particular company. Council reaffirms the right of all members of UCD Students' Union to join and be active within a trade union without fear of intimidation.

Council calls for the immediate reinstatement of Joanne Delaney and recognises the right to join and be active in a trade union as part of the right to freedom of peaceful association as outlined in Article 4.4 of the UCDSU Constitution.

In the context of low levels of trade union membership and the flagrant disregard for workers' rights at many of the companies who employ UCD students, Council mandates the President to instruct the Accommodation and Employment Officer to make contact with Joanne Delaney with a view to hosting a meeting on young workers' rights over the next month, to be addressed by Joanne.

Proposed by Jane Horgan-Jones, Education Vice-President
Seconded by Niall Dolan, 2nd Social Science

That was just a handful of motions I put up earlier,like the one above theres lots more I just dont want to waste anymore space.....which will extend the 1 and 15mins given to these motions. .

Nope, it wouldn't. Nothing was done on this motion. Joanne Delaney never came to speak to UCD students.

Next.

panda100 wrote:

The fact is that it could have been 550 euro,possibly more.Its funny how the union think of 100 euro as nothing....as a student from Limerick living in Dublin a 100 euro is a heck of a lot and 550 euro or even 150 euro would do a lot more good for students in the student hardship fund then going back to the judicary system.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Do you think 25,000 is a lot of money to lose on one evening?

Student hardship fund = fund for students with unforeseen financial difficulties.
Fine that the student got = unforeseen financial difficulty.

There you go.

Again, this really isn't the substantive issue.

Are you going to take back your insinuations that we prioritise non-student issues over student issues? Or do you still think that's the case?

PS Please answer that question.

humbert

Vainglory wrote:

Student hardship fund = fund for students with unforeseen financial difficulties.
Fine that the student got = unforeseen financial difficulty.

If we're still talking about the guy who was arrested while protesting for being abusive toward a gard that comparison made me feel a little sick.

Vainglory

humbert wrote:

If we're still talking about the guy who was arrested while protesting for being abusive toward a gard that comparison made me feel a little sick.

I was just explaining what the Student Hardship Fund was for. It's for students who experience unforseen financial difficulties. It's not for "students who experience unforeseen financial difficulties, but only when we agree with their politics."

singingstranger

Vainglory wrote:

Student hardship fund = fund for students with unforeseen financial difficulties.
Fine that the student got = unforeseen financial difficulty.

Just a thought, Jane: say I'm caught speeding on the way out to a friend's house. I get my penalty points and an €80 fine. As I could not possibly have budgeted for being caught speeding and that this €80 is therefore unforseen financial difficulty, would you agree with Council authorising an €80 payment towards the fine?

panda100

Vainglory wrote:

In my view, it is important that members of UCDSU are allowed to propose motions about anything they wish the Union to campaign on and have them voted upon. I presume you wouldn't argue that they shouldn't be allowed propose motions?

Yes .....if they are class reps that have been class reps in their class for more than one year and ones that havent been voted in by a majority vote in their class(Amy Morgan ,a girl in my class was just added to have someone down on the list two years ago) We all are in agreement that class reps are important and yet it at the moment it isnt working. People arent getting lecture adrresess and regular updates from there class reps. Im sure the three days for class training,the day off for the Irish ferries protest and the couple of hours spent on non student motions and sending in solidarity email/phone calls should be utilised in making sure EVERY class is represented properly,instead of hearing theres 20,000 students and not enought time blah blah...

Vainglory wrote:

It may sound harsh, and while I do think the Night Bus was an interesting initiative, I don't think it should be touted as a fantastic achievement of a Union administration when so many students are practically living in poverty,

But I thought 150 euro was 'nothing' to the union.If so Why dont they help these people living in poverty if a 150 euro is easily spent by the union and 150 euro will easily go a lon way for someone living in poverty.....As I said before Jimmy Carrols nightbus is looked down on for being not as important as 'grants','war in iraq' etc etc. The year I lived in Belgrove I often had to walk back from the clonskeagh gate by myself at 4 in the morning cos I missed the nightlink,and could only afford the taxi to the back gate. Im sure this happens to loadsa poor students like myself.Yet the year I was living in Belgrove what did the union do......run the coke referendum....twice.....!So fair play to James Carroll for brinign in something that really help a lot of students...I dont think he should be knocked for that.

panda100

humbert wrote:

If we're still talking about the guy who was arrested while protesting for being abusive toward a gard that comparison made me feel a little sick.

Totally agree...is the student hardship fund really misused in this way??

I know a guy in DCU that was attacked last home froma night out(he only drinks water:) )....he ended up in hospital and was alreay living on a grant for 100 euro a week so he lost all his money for that week as two guys stole it. I was under the illusion the student hardship fund should be used for bailing people like him out for the week.Thats REAL studnt hardship,not somone who knowingly goes into a protest and acts in an unlawful manner.

humbert

If I remember correctly you were a major proponent of the coke bannage???
I also don't think it fair to draw a parallel between what the SU considers a trivial sum and what the average student considers a trivial sum. It's just the principal of the thing that bothers me.

singingstranger

panda100 wrote:

Totally agree...is the student hardship fund really misused in this way??

I know a guy in DCU that was attacked last home froma night out(he only drinks water:) )....he ended up in hospital and was alreay living on a grant for 100 euro a week so he lost all his money for that week as two guys stole it. I was under the illusion the student hardship fund should be used for bailing people like him out for the week.Thats REAL studnt hardship,not somone who knowingly goes into a protest and acts in an unlawful manner.

Further to this, the money mandated to be paid to him wasn't even mandated to come out of the Student Hardship Fund. All applicants to this are private. I know it's a highly tenuous situation and tbh I'd be personally very surprised if the guy in question was to do it, but there's nothing stopping people from applying for SWF payouts and still looking for Council to bail them out of a fine, even though a legally incurred fine causes unforseeable financial difficulty.

pigeonbutler

humbert wrote:

If I remember correctly you were a major proponent of the coke bannage???
I also don't think it fair to draw a parallel between what the SU considers a trivial sum and what the average student considers a trivial sum. It's just the principal of the thing that bothers me.

Not as such. I wasn't around back in the day but I've heard Jane wasn't always as anti-Coke as she is now.

Want to tell them about "Coke for the Communists" Vainglory?

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but the question was raised.

Well maybe I'm being a little bit of an asshole

humbert

pigeonbutler wrote:

Not as such. I wasn't around back in the day but I've heard Jane wasn't always as anti-Coke as she is now.

Want to tell them about "Coke for the Communists" Vainglory?

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but the question was raised.

Well maybe I'm being a little bit of an asshole

That's interesting:) But I was refering to panda!

Mr.Nice Guy

Vainglory wrote:

In my view, it is important that members of UCDSU are allowed to propose motions about anything they wish the Union to campaign on and have them voted upon. I presume you wouldn't argue that they shouldn't be allowed propose motions?

They should be allowed propose motions that are relevant to student matters.

Vainglory wrote:

If that means (as it has done in some cases) that UCDSU participates in "political" matters, then I think that is absolutely right and proper, and that is democratic.

I think that's a poor argument. If Dáil Eireann passes a motion giving themselves 50% salary increases and more time off, that might be democratic but it doesn't make it relevant to running the country.

Why can't motions be concentrated on non-political student matters?

Vainglory wrote:

As for me personally? I have never hidden my opinion that students do not live in a bubble and if the membership of a Students' Union wishes them to campaign on a non-student issue then they have every right to direct the officers that way.

But why is it important?

Vainglory wrote:

Hmm, let me answer this with a hypothetical situation. Johnny from 2nd Arts calls to my door. He is quite upset about a "political" issue and wants his Union to get involved. I turn him away, and say that I'm sorry, but we will not represent you on that issue. How is that "representing all students"? We are not representing Johnny the way he wants, anyway.

Tell "Johnny" to go and join one of the many political societies on offer in UCD. Labour, Fine Gael, Fiann Fáil, World Aid Soc maybe even Amnesty International. Why does "Johnny" need to go to a student union to solve a political issue do you think?

Vainglory wrote:

So how do we decide whether we should represent Johnny on this issue? We have a fair and free debate and vote at Council. Easy. Fair. And the, every student has an equal opportunity to get the Union to represent them the way they want.

I see. So let me use a hypothetical situation. Let's say "Johnny" is a socialist/marxist (insert as required) and feels very strongly about a group in Cambodia who are being discriminated against. He puts this forward to the Council, who conveniently enough are made up of sociliasts/marxists (insert as required) and they then decide to vote to back "Johnny"'s little crusade...that's acceptable in your eyes? When the guy can take his political problem elsewhere?

In what possible sense is this the job of a student union?

In relation to what you think should be improved, you said what I pretty much expected you to but I would like to see UCDSU figures acknowledge the growing sense of disillusionment that is felt towards UCDSU as a whole.

I feel so much more could be done but it seems to me that the union itself is poisoned by the extreme fringe that engulfs it.

I'd like to see more of the 'End the Rip-off campus' stuff and less of the 'End the occupation of Iraq' stuff.

The_Minister

Vainglory wrote:

Do you know for a fact that they don't? Have you conducted a student wide survey?
Note : I'm not saying that I know for a fact that they do, either. However, what I have, which you don't have, are democratically decided votes on these matters. You have nothing but the benefit of your own meandering experience.

You are kidding yourself if you think the average UCD student cares about that stuff. Hear are some comments that I've heard from D4's over the last while
"Why do we give our coke to the Cambodians?"
"I don't really care about the war in Iraq but I don't know why they're attacking it, its just another African dictatorship"
"Don't talk to me about politics"
"Chavez he's a footballer ain't he?"
and repeatedly:
"Who's Kofi Annan?"

Most students are political ignorami, they really don't care. Most don't even know who they will vote for.

Blowfish

Firespinner wrote:

Most students are political ignorami, they really don't care. Most don't even know who they will vote for.

More like most won't vote. (and yes i'm included in this)

hullaballoo

Firespinner wrote:

You are kidding yourself if you think the average UCD student cares about that stuff. Hear are some comments that I've heard from D4's over the last while
"Why do we give our coke to the Cambodians?"
"I don't really care about the war in Iraq but I don't know why they're attacking it, its just another African dictatorship"
"Don't talk to me about politics"
"Chavez he's a footballer ain't he?"
and repeatedly:
"Who's Kofi Annan?"

Most students are political ignorami, they really don't care. Most don't even know who they will vote for.

Just the D4s then? I'd find it hard to believe that only people from D4 are politically ignorant.

I also don't see why anyone should look down on somebody else just because they don't care about politics. Perhaps they realise the futility of it all, and that it doesn't matter who you vote for, you'll just get another four years of the same things not being done.

Perhaps, they just aren't interested in politics. I don't have any particular interest in accounting, but I wouldn't expect an accountant to come out with a scathing comment about my intellect, such as was implicit in that post, on foot of the fact that I struggle with double entry.

The_Minister

hullaballoo wrote:

Just the D4s then? I'd find it hard to believe that only people from D4 are politically ignorant.

D4's tend to say it funnier, but you're right ignorance is global.

hullaballoo wrote:

I also don't see why anyone should look down on somebody else just because they don't care about politics. Perhaps they realise the futility of it all, and that it doesn't matter who you vote for, you'll just get another four years of the same things not being done.


Perhaps, they just aren't interested in politics. I don't have any particular interest in accounting, but I wouldn't expect an accountant to come out with a scathing comment about my intellect, such as was implicit in that post, on foot of the fact that I struggle with double entry.

I do not look down on people for not keeping up with politics (as you say different strokes), I just thought those quotes were humerous. Saying that I believe that everyone should know who the Taoiseach, Tanaiste and Minister for justice are.


Whats double entry?

EDIT: Just give me a hint - is it something dirty?

hullaballoo

FireSpinner wrote:

What's double entry

You don't want to know.

The matters of student politics are for some, and not for others. Personally, I don't see that they affect me to a great extent, but I'd still vote if I thought it would mean that some issues would come to the fore.

Diorraing

panda100 wrote:

I fundamentally agree with a campaigning union.I think it would be a sad day for society if students ceased all activism but It depends what type of activism they are engaging in. I would be one of the first to run down O'Connel street naked in protest to the introduction of fee's and I think most students would too. Fee's is a really important issue that affects most of the students in UCD.

Yeah, like the €63 we piss away on the SU every year. Does anyone know if you can leave the UCDSU. I know you have a constitutional right to disassociate yourself from organisations. I know a lot of people who would be glad to leave the SU.