Juventus to win league title and loose it again?

mike65

from guardian

The entire board of directors at the Italian champions Juventus resigned yesterday following days of revelations over embarrassing telephone interceptions involving its top management.

The Italian football federation is investigating the content of tapped telephone conversations between Juve's general manager Luciano Moggi and a federation official responsible for selecting referees, in which they discuss appointments for games involving Juventus, who need a point in this weekend's final match to clinch another Serie A title.

"The board has tendered its resignation," Juventus said in a brief statement last night. The club's share price fell by 10% yesterday. The case has rapidly snowballed, with public prosecutors in Turin, Rome and Naples reportedly investigating alleged widespread malpractice involving referees and several Serie A clubs.

The tapped conversations featuring Moggi and a number of important figures in the game are evidence of what most football fans have suspected for many years. Jokes about Moggi's exaggerated power with referees and in the transfer market were common before the telephone transcripts were splashed across Italian newspapers.

Antonio Di Pietro, the magistrate behind the team which investigated political corruption in the early 90s and sent 4,525 people to jail, said he saw many similarities between his case and the new scandal in football.

"Nobody is really surprised at what is happening," Di Pietro told Gazzetta dello Sport. "It was the same with my case. Everybody knew that corruption was a very common practice among Italian politicians but you cannot do anything until you see someone with his hands in the marmalade. These telephone conversations, however, are clear evidence."

Why are'nt I suprised? Will Capello jump ship? He is linked with Internationale. Will the Itailan FA decide the title is'nt Juves?

Mike.

el rabitos

capello wont be off to inter because mancini will be there for next year at least. they just won the italian cup, so that saves his job for another year i reckon.

i still havent given up hope that milan will win it on the last day

Jonny Arson

Who would be suprised.... that entire country is currupt be it in politics, football yada yada.

If they're gulity of any of this they should be thrown out of the top flight let alone lose their title.

eirebhoy

Article on match fixing which brough this on:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3361-2170308,00.html

Zaph

More on the BBC website, with a suggestion that Juventus could be stripped of the title, should they win it, and demoted.

Vokes

Wow, imagine if they were relegated...

ManU could buy Emerson for their midfield
Liverpool could take Zambrotta for the right wing and Ibrahimovic upfront.
Arsenal could take back Viera.
And Chelsea would probably buy everyone else

eirebhoy

SofaKing wrote:

Liverpool could take Zambrotta for the right wing

He's a left back.

Rikand

eirebhoy wrote:

He's a left back.

He'd still be better than anything liverpool have currently available for right wing

SpAcEd OuT

Milan also under investigation

oh and Zambrotta can play defense and wing

mike65

Gerrard is crap out there its true! Ahem....

Mike.

Roddy23

Milan also under investigation

Inter to win the Serie A?

mike65

Whole league to be relegated!

Mike.

Vokes

eirebhoy wrote:

He's a left back.

Orignally, a right winger though - id take him!

And assuming Milan are relegated, we'll also take Kaka as back up for right wing/attacking midfield

mchurl

If it proves to be true, well then both sides should be demoted. We could have another case of Fiorentina on our hands, although that was in different circumstances when they were demoted.

Rikand

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/4768307.stm

uventus goalkeeper Gianluigi Buffon volunteered himself for questioning by magistrates on Saturday after allegations of betting improprieties.

Italy's first-choice keeper was questioned for more than two hours in Turin and made a statement.

Italian regulations forbid players from betting on matches in any championship.

In a possibly unconnected development, Juve, AC Milan, Fiorentina and Lazio were placed under formal investigation for suspected match-fixing on Friday.

Kingp35

Same old story with italian football. This doesnt surprise me at all and if it is found out that clubs are involved with match fixing they should be demoted straight away.

Chucky the tree

Not a suprised. It happens through out the Seire A. THey have only acted now as the papers have come out with concrete evidence.

Makaveli

The Italian league really is a sham when it comes to things like this.
Hope Milan win the league tomorrow, then my ante-post treble comes in.

CorkMan

If Milan and Juve get demoted Zambrotto to replace Carlos, Kaka for Zidane, Pirlo or Gattuso for (about time) Makelele and Buffon on the bench incase Casillas gets injured

Guy:Incognito

SofaKing wrote:

Orignally, a right winger though - id take him!

So was Carra.:eek:

mike65 wrote:

Whole league to be relegated!

Atalanta to be named serie a champions?

SpAcEd OuT

CorkMan wrote:

If Milan and Juve get demoted Zambrotto to replace Carlos, Kaka for Zidane, Pirlo or Gattuso for (about time) Makelele and Buffon on the bench incase Casillas gets injured

you'd put buffon behind cassilas

wierd.

Ronan|Raven

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few weeks. Unfortunatly Italy seems to be infested with corruption on many levels.

I like Mikes suggestion though! Out with the lot!

KdjaCL

Juve 2 reggiana 0 congrats Juve players.

Juve Champions.

kdjac

Royale with Cheese

KdjaC wrote:

Juve Champions.

For now...

zAbbo

Milan got a last minute winner 2-1.

Interesting to see what happens now.

Chardee MacDennis

they prob wont be stripped of their title surely, just relegated.

Makaveli

Prefer them to be stripped of the title and not relegated, then I win my bet.

Ruskie4Rent

It must be frustrating fo the juve players, to have all their hard work sh*t on by greedy business men. Wether they have their title stripped or not, the winning of serie A through them being the league's best team has still been tainted.

YeatsCounty

Massimo De Santis is withdrawn from italy's referee's panel for the World Cup by the Italian FA.
President and Vice-President of the Italian FA resign over the scandal.

Juventus: They are in serious trouble. This entire scandal revolves around them and the dealings of Luciano Moggi. There have been rumblings in Italy for years over suspected Juventus wrongdoing in Italy, now this story has broken.

Whatever happens now, this is the end of an era for Juve. The entire board of directors has resigned, including Moggi. Capello may leave the club this summer. This will be a long difficult summer for Juventus and for Italian football in general.

Milan: Berlusconi demands that Milan should have their two "stolen" Scudetti returned after Juve's provisional Serie A victory today.

Milan's part in this is very interesting indeed. Of the three Milan games under investigation, they only earned four points. That doesn't look like a team that would have fixed those matches in question, unless:

1. Milan came to an agreement with Juventus that Juventus would win Serie A, leaving Milan to concentrate on Europe
2. or Milan could have been pawns of a "Juve conspiracy", which could have seen Italian League Vice-President (and also Milan Vice-President) Adriano Galliani involved against Milan (Note: This is just speculation on my part).

This is worrying for Rossoneri fans like myself but I don't think that Milan are the big players in this. The finger of suspicion is pointing straight at Juventus and Lega Calcio officials in this case. We'll have to wait and see what part Milan played in it. If they were involved in this scandal, they should be given the sppropriate punishment.

Lazio: The club claims to have had no part in this scandal and at this moment in time, some of their matches from last season are merely under investigation. It could turn out that they were victims of any illegal "plot".

http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/may13b.html

Lazio President Claudio Lotito: “[I am] certain the continuation of the investigation will confirm the legitimacy of our actions and we have full faith in the justice system.”

Fiorentina: Owner Diego Della valle claims that the Viola were punished for not toeing the party line on their return to Serie A last season, that they were very nearly relegated due to outside forces due to their independance. They only survuved on the last day of the season with a win, while Parma could only draw and went into a relegation play-off with Bologna.

Delle Valle said:
“There is a system of total power in football and we never bowed to that. Then we understood they wanted to knock us down just because we didn’t side with the system. That’s when we started listening to what they said without actually doing what they asked.”

Someone wanted to show us what happens when you don’t toe the party line and the team was going straight to Serie B. We never bowed to pressure, as there are ideals we hold dearly. Those were worrying times and we were afraid of what was around us, but we decided to listen and then do our own thing anyway.”

The matches under investigation are as follows:

Reggina 2-1 Juventus
Lecce 0-1 Juventus
Juventus 2-1 Lazio
Fiorentina 1-0 Bologna
Bologna 0-1 Juventus
Juventus 2-1 Udinese
Roma 1-2 Juventus
Inter 3-2 Fiorentina
Fiorentina 3-3 Juventus
Chievo 0-1 Lazio
Lazio 2-0 Parma
Bologna 1-2 Lazio
Siena 2-1 Milan
Lazio 1-1 Fiorentina
Chievo 1-2 Fiorentina
Lecce 3-3 Parma
Livorno 3-6 Siena
Milan 1-1 Brescia
Milan 1-0 Chievo

CorkMan

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

you'd put buffon behind cassilas

wierd.

Casillas is well better than him. Buffon is overrated, plus Casillas earns more than him (6,000,000 sterling per year without bonuses inc.)

el rabitos

Casillas is well better than him. Buffon is overrated, plus Casillas earns more than him (6,000,000 sterling per year without bonuses inc.)

what the hell as money got to do with it?

buffon and casillas are 2 players on a certain level of a ability that few other keepers are at. respectively they're both the best keeper in their domestic leagues, it would be a toss of a coin as to who would start if they played in the same team

anonymous_joe

Silly old Juve. Inter must be praying Milan and Juve get relegated. Though, to be honest, I can't see that happening.

PHB

I'd love to see them relegated, just to see what the hell would happen.
An entire exodus of players over the summer? All the top teams trying to get them?
It'd be a total revolution in football.

el rabitos

I'd love to see them relegated, just to see what the hell would happen.
An entire exodus of players over the summer? All the top teams trying to get them?
It'd be a total revolution in football.

OR

a contract might mean something for the first time ever and the players wont be sold.

relegated teams usually sell because they cant afford to pay the wages or they need the money, juve and milan dont.

Chardee MacDennis

el rabitos wrote:

OR

a contract might mean something for the first time ever and the players wont be sold.

relegated teams usually sell because they cant afford to pay the wages or they need the money, juve and milan dont.

well if they get relegated even if they loose the top 5/6 players they will get promoted immediately.

but if they only get relegated and keep their title then they will be playing champions league football, which will mean most of their players will stay as they will be playing topflight football every wednesday and 1st division football every saturday. Surely that would be great fun for them and could see them do very well in the CL.

godtabh

Reggina 2-1 Juventus
Lecce 0-1 Juventus
Juventus 2-1 Lazio
Fiorentina 1-0 Bologna
Bologna 0-1 Juventus
Juventus 2-1 Udinese
Roma 1-2 Juventus
Inter 3-2 Fiorentina
Fiorentina 3-3 Juventus
Chievo 0-1 Lazio
Lazio 2-0 Parma
Bologna 1-2 Lazio
Siena 2-1 Milan
Lazio 1-1 Fiorentina
Chievo 1-2 Fiorentina
Lecce 3-3 Parma
Livorno 3-6 Siena
Milan 1-1 Brescia
Milan 1-0 Chievo

If these are the games in question they didn’t do a very good job of influencing games as Juve and Milan lost a good few on the list.

I've been watching Italian football since 1990 and would be a big Inter fan. I've seen Juve score more last minute winners from dodgy referees decisions than I car to remember and there was always rumours the Juve had influenced games but there was no proof of it. Look at the doping scandal they were involved with (at the time Inter were in line to get the title but the league didn’t do anything about the championship results).

People also felt that the AC president had too much influence (the fact he was running Italy and the TV networks) but I don’t think it was as bad as anything Juve did.

They won’t lose the title or relegated. The league aren’t strong enough to do it

TheMonster

kearnsr wrote:

If these are the games in question they didn’t do a very good job of influencing games as Juve and Milan lost a good few on the list.

I've been watching Italian football since 1990 and would be a big Inter fan. I've seen Juve score more last minute winners from dodgy referees decisions than I car to remember and there was always rumours the Juve had influenced games but there was no proof of it. Look at the doping scandal they were involved with (at the time Inter were in line to get the title but the league didn’t do anything about the championship results).

People also felt that the AC president had too much influence (the fact he was running Italy and the TV networks) but I don’t think it was as bad as anything Juve did.

They won’t lose the title or relegated. The league aren’t strong enough to do it

if they didn't and ith so much proof couldn't UEFA or FIFA step in and at least investigate

iregk

The whole thing on the Milan part is a touch misleading. In Italy as in any country a club is allowed to request a certain ref for any game. This is the norm. The 3 games in quesiton with Milan they requested a particular ref and didn't get him! Milan are not under investigation at the moment as there is no evidance to confirm any wrong doings. This basically came out because of the Juve scandal.

Juve on the other hand have been known for years to be involved in fixing and bribery. The refs that they requested were backed up by illegal payments etc... This is what is coming out now and hopefully the FIGC who have been good in the past will not back down against one of their big fish and take this all the way. If that happens this has huge implications for Juve. We are talking a Fiorentina style event here. Hopefully this is the case.

The other aspect to this is that Milan want back the two past titles as it has been blatantly obvious last year and this year that something has seriously been going on. Dodgy penalties and bizarre red cards for opposing players. it will be interesting.

redspider

Corruption in Italian football is not a surprise for most. Its happened on and off for years and will no doubt happen again. Moggi (sp?) seemingly has been involved in a lot of it but by no means all and was involved at Napoli. Some of you may remember or know of Paula Rossi's 3-year ban which was a club issue which got blamed on a couple of players from what I recall.

The question now is how deep did the corruption go, what type of influence did it have on the results, and what will the punishments be ?!?

Knowing the Italian legal system, it will take a while to work out and I would be surpirsed if everything was done and dusted for the start of next season. If Juventus tried to orchestrate many match fixings, then they should be stripped of their title(s) and relegated. Most likely they will be docked something like 20 pts next season, and perhaps prevented from entering the CL.

Its unclear how much of a part Milan played in this but as Belusconi is corrupt in non-football life and dealings, no-one would be surprised if they would have their hands dirty. Mind you, Italians are good at corruption (just like people are in this country) so tracks are well-covered.

Oh, by the way, the judicial system is also corrupt, and the police and the prosecutors, so dont expect a squeaky-clean Mother Theresa-like investigation.

One thing is for sure, there will be damage to the Italian league, with subtle knock-on effects. It may reduce the footballing power of the Italian teams. None of them want that, and neither do Uefa really. I therefore expect some token punishments, life bans for some of the people involved, etc, but nothing that would seriously damage the sport in Italy.

Now, hands up in England all those people in football that have not been involved in corruption of some sort of another.

Ferguson and Abramovich, put your hands down!

redspider

godtabh

TheMonster wrote:

if they didn't and ith so much proof couldn't UEFA or FIFA step in and at least investigate

Do you mean if the League dont do anything Fifa or UEFA might?

I'm not sure if FIFA or UEFA can do anything? They arent meant to get involved in national league issues. As far as I know anyways.

iregk

The FIGC will have to deal with this one but if this all comes to be true there will be huge pressure on them from UEFA/FIFA. The two bodies do not normally get involved in national issue so I wouldn't say there will be much from them more likely recommendations on what to do etc..

kinaldo

there's growing fear from people leading the investigation this may be brushed under the carpet over the next few weeks, especially with the build up to the world cup starting. i remember last year there was talk of stripping juve of their titles and european trophies from between 94-98 for using illegal performance enhancing drugs. the italian police raided juve's training ground and found more drugs than u would find in a small hospital. players and medical staff were put before an inquiry it looked very ominous for juve but i haven't heard any news on this in months. juve's policy seems to be ignore everthing and it'll go away. so far it seems to be working for them.

SpAcEd OuT

Moggi questioned in probe
Tuesday 16 May, 2006
Public prosecutors spent over six hours questioning Luciano Moggi on Monday as the investigation into alleged match-fixing continues.

Moggi, who on Sunday emotionally resigned as director general of Juve live on television, flew into Rome for interrogation in the aftermath of the telephone tap scandal which has blown the Italian football world into chaos.

“This is a moment of great tiredness for me, but I looked to clear up everything,” Moggi is quoted as saying after his day in the capital.

“Everyone acts in the way they think is necessary in this world because there are no alliances,” he added.

“I reacted as I did in order to not be threatened, to not become a victim of the powerful forces already present.”

Sources added that Moggi had denied being a part of a system which included club officials and referees who allegedly looked to fix the result of games.

Fulvio Gianaria, Moggi’s lawyer, was happy with the discussions that had taken place. “The hearing was done with calmness and without bitterness,” he said.

"There was a general discussion for half of the time and then we examined individual incidents.”

Moggi is one of 41 people under investigation by magistrates in Naples after a number of telephone calls between prominent figures in the game were intercepted.

Transcripts of the calls reveal that a number of discussions took place with regard to the appointment of specific referees for matches.

Naples magistrates confirmed on Friday that Juventus, Fiorentina, Lazio and Milan are among the teams being investigated as part of their inquiry.

The sporting justice system has the power to demote clubs to a lower Division if found guilty of sporting fraud.

The effects of the investigation have heavily penalised Juventus on the stock market after their shares lost 20 per cent of their value on Monday at a cost of around £40m.

Financial experts in Italy are also speculating that Juve, crowned League champions on Sunday, could lose over £80m of their television and sponsorship deals if they find themselves in Serie B next term.

- CHANNEL 4

SpAcEd OuT

kinaldo wrote:

there's growing fear from people leading the investigation this may be brushed under the carpet over the next few weeks, especially with the build up to the world cup starting. i remember last year there was talk of stripping juve of their titles and european trophies from between 94-98 for using illegal performance enhancing drugs. the italian police raided juve's training ground and found more drugs than u would find in a small hospital. players and medical staff were put before an inquiry it looked very ominous for juve but i haven't heard any news on this in months. juve's policy seems to be ignore everthing and it'll go away. so far it seems to be working for them.

Bull**** mate, all charges against Juventus Football Club were dropped, it was the papers who decided to basically ignore this major fact, they were proven innocent in the enquiry.

kinaldo

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

Bull**** mate, all charges against Juventus Football Club were dropped, it was the papers who decided to basically ignore this major fact, they were proven innocent in the enquiry.

Really? I honestly wasn't aware the charges had been dropped. Were formal charges even made? However, I'm pretty sure it's technically not possible to be proven either innocent or guilty through specially setup enquiries. That's what they have courts and trials for. I know next to nothing about law, least of all Italian law, so I do stand to be corrected on that.

iregk

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

Bull**** mate, all charges against Juventus Football Club were dropped, it was the papers who decided to basically ignore this major fact, they were proven innocent in the enquiry.

All charges against Juve were indeed dropped however this was more due to a shambolic prosecution rather than Juve being innocent. The evidance was there to destroy Juve only the prosecution didn't play the game right. The Juve defence didn't really have to do much other than ask the players the questions that they wanted.

The fact of the matter is Juve have been involved in cheating, bribery and doping for years and have so far just not being convicted of it. I hope this time the authorities take a stand and show Juve they are not above the law. Its exactly what they need a reality check and give Milan back their titles.

Ruskie4Rent

I would be far happier with their titles being stripped and not handing them to another team. It's better if the wrong doers are punished and then we move on to next season.

The Rooster

Would Marseille be a fair comparison? Could it be considered a precedent?

They got relegated, but I'm not sure if they were stripped of any trophies. They certainly werent stripped of their European Cup win - not sure whether they were stripped of a French title? AFAIR they didnt lose their European place either when they were relegated??

SpAcEd OuT

iregk wrote:

All charges against Juve were indeed dropped however this was more due to a shambolic prosecution rather than Juve being innocent. The evidance was there to destroy Juve only the prosecution didn't play the game right. The Juve defence didn't really have to do much other than ask the players the questions that they wanted.

Say what you want, Juventus were proven innocent in a court of law, if the evidence was so crystal clear they would have been prosecuted, some of the best lawyers in Italy were hired to prosecute and even then they couldnt mount a serouis case

iregk wrote:

The fact of the matter is Juve have been involved in cheating, bribery and doping for years and have so far just not being convicted of it. I hope this time the authorities take a stand and show Juve they are not above the law. Its exactly what they need a reality check and give Milan back their titles.

And your basing this on what

A case where they were cleared of all charges and a case that is still ongoing you are purely speculating and as a fan of Juventus I find it quite offensive that you say my club has been involved in cheating with no proven evidence.

iregk

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

Say what you want, Juventus were proven innocent in a court of law, if the evidence was so crystal clear they would have been prosecuted, some of the best lawyers in Italy were hired to prosecute and even then they couldnt mount a serouis case

Open your eyes. The prosecution was a joke. They ignored evidance, brought in apparent whitnesses that turned on them and destroyed themsleves. Oj was as guilty as hell but was found innocent, doesn't change the fact that it happened though does it?

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

A case where they were cleared of all charges and a case that is still ongoing you are purely speculating and as a fan of Juventus I find it quite offensive that you say my club has been involved in cheating with no proven evidence.

No proven evidence, have you watched Italian football the past few years? You say your a Juve fan so I will assume you do but through your bianconeri glasses. The evidence of the most dodgy penalties I have ever seen, red cards to opposition and ridiculous refereeing is in plain view. The entire country (and im talking about the peninsula here not ireland) knows what’s happening and knows that its been going on. Surely an entire country can't be wrong? Ever wonder why they were so woeful in Europe this year? Because they didn't get away in the CL with the crap they get away with in Serie A.

You find it offensive what I say about your club? How about what the whole of the Serie A world has been saying for 10 years? Is all that offensive as well? Also no evidence well lets see what happens shall we. Hopefully the FIGC will not bottle it and take Juve all the way.

therecklessone

iregk wrote:

How about what the whole of the Serie A world has been saying for 10 years?

The same has been said of Milan in those 10 years.

Read an interesting book called How Football Explains The World a couple of weeks ago, can't provide any quotes because my copy is lying on a sofa in an apartment in Mallorca, but there's a chapter on Italian football in it, and the author alludes to both Juve and Milan being guilty of dodgy dealings.

Is it not surprising that other than the two Rome clubs winning a title apiece, Juve and Milan have dominated the Italian game for the last 15 years or so?