Is the Arts course a burden to UCD

DJDC

It’s a simple thought provoking question really. Does the arts faculty drag down the overall reputation of UCD?
Is it one the main reasons why UCD lags miles behind Trinity in the rankings?

If it were made smaller say to accommodate 500 first years would UCD be a more academic and more internationally competitive place to study. And also would UCD lose the burden of being a "cliquey" place due to the fact that this phenomenon seems to be particularly prevalent in the arts faculty.

Dont let this degenerate into a pathetic slagging match.All sides have valid points to be made.I myself am undecided.

Funky

Reputation is overrated.

humbert

Funky wrote:

Reputation is overrated.

That about sums it up, who cares about the reputation, and no I don't think it does, anyone going to a particular "school" will make their decision bases on its merits alone.

Riamfada

I wouldnt think it would be fair on little leaving cert students to restrict the amount of arts places available in order to simply attempt to boost the reputation of the faculty . Other collleges like Maynooth do arts degrees. The UCD Arts degree is just a stigma and somthing to be slagged because we all need somthing to slag. It becomes the whipping boy of UCD.

humbert

I wouldn't so much if it weren't the case that the points for arts are about 100 greater that that for science.

Red Alert

the majority of the x thousand students here aren't obviously too worried about the 'reputation' like the Man and co. are.

m1ke

Actually, reducing the numbers would be a good idea. In the early 1990s they doubled the numbers without increasing the budget. The place has not recovered since. There are definitely too many students. Many either don't want to be there in the first place or are just there by default. They need to reduce the intake and increase the budget. 500 is too few though. There are around 30 subjects. They should allow no more than 50 people into a subject. So i'd say around 800-1000 students, seeing as you're only going to get around 5 people taking subjects like Welsh.

The_Minister

I can understand having 50 places for socially useless subjects like philosophy, but for subjects like economics much bigger numbers are needed.

ferdi

i cant really comment on this one. i am one of the 'default' arts students - i could not find a course i wanted to do so ended up going for arts, i have not got any real passion for my subjects.

m1ke

the world has enough economists, we really need to start slowly culling them off

Font22

i dont understand how reducing the numbers in arts would have any bearing on how academic the college is. its only one degree in one of the biggest colleges in ireland!

ferdi

m1ke wrote:

the world has enough economists, we really need to start slowly culling them off

and what are you? a theoretical commercial arcitectural ag scientist? there just arnt enough of you guys around.

elmyra

ferdi wrote:

and what are you? a theoretical commercial arcitectural ag scientist? there just arnt enough of you guys around.

roffle.

Personally I acknowledge that Arts doesn't have the greatest of reputations and it is on the lower end of the points scale for UCD, but the fact that it hovers in and around 400 means that the demand for it consistently outweighs the availability of places. Not everyone in the course gets there by default. By reducing the numbers the points will go up, thus people who miss out on some higher course will get the default place and people who genuinely want Arts miss out. This probably happens already, but it seems unfair to disappoint ickle lc's in their dreams of a lowly mocked degree even moreso than now for the sake of reputation. We all know that the disciplines Arts grads end up in as stated in the undergrad prospectus are a bit fantastical for most but let us dream ! I'm sure anyone who sticks it out and gets their degree has some benefit from it, even if that benefit is maybe experience in drama or media or something that a low-hours course has afforded them the opportunity to be involved in.

Stabshauptmann

Socially usless. *shudders*

was nearly arsed writing a reply then I remember firespinner won best troll at ucd boards awards.

failsafe

m1ke wrote:

They need to reduce the intake and increase the budget.

So your plan is reduce income and increase expenditure..... clearly we need alot more economics lectures

Stabshauptmann

Perhaps the college of arts and celtic studies does have a reputation of being a doss, with a mad social life, but no practical benifit to your career, but if thats what ppl want, **** it, let them have it.

Commerce / business studies seems to becoming the new doss degree especially since you can do it in ITs

rainbow kirby

And now for something surprising: I think arts should stay the way it is, but have its budget increased. There's always a place for the general education that an arts degree gives you, and it can be a good way of finding out what your academic passions are. Certain subjects probably need to be made more practical within the faculty, but there is still definitely a place for the humanities.
(Personally, even though they have no practical application for my future career at all, I'd love to take some courses in women's studies.. but UCD doesn't offer them at undergraduate level)

snickerpuss

I don't see any need to reduce the numbers. Who really cares about reputation? Its the most popular course in Ireland, thats a pretty decent recommendation. Why make it harder to get into for the sake of it?

DJDC

Reputation is overrated

Answers like that add nothing to the debate and are ridiculous. Of course reputation is important to a university. Why do you think universities spend millions on marketing each year on trying to attract the best students(not just UCD)?

In my opinion, arts and humanities are a vital part of any university. A university dominated by science and technology would indeed be a much poorer place to study. But maybe reducing the arts faculty size would not be a bad thing. It would improve the learning experience for the arts student and we would see the end of this "toilet degree" nonsense.And if the points rise, well then so be it. It should not be seen as a negative thing.

elmyra

DJDC wrote:

Answers like that add nothing to the debate and are ridiculous. Of course reputation is important to a university. Why do you think universities spend millions on marketing each year on trying to attract the best students(not just UCD)?

In my opinion, arts and humanities are a vital part of any university. A university dominated by science and technology would indeed be a much poorer place to study. But maybe reducing the arts faculty size would not be a bad thing. It would improve the learning experience for the arts student and we would see the end of this "toilet degree" nonsense.And if the points rise, well then so be it. It should not be seen as a negative thing.

A rise in points wouldn't be a negative thing if it was merited. The reason behind points has always been the availabilty of course places. Obviously high points does indicate popularity and prestige...but if a course can cater for larger numbers then let it, it would be absolutely silly to cut down on numbers just so fewer people could consider their degree to be a little better quality. You don't need special equipment in arts or one on one help for most things. A lecturer can spout the same chatter to 50 people or 500. The same thing would be learned by smaller numbers if the course size was reduced. Maybe we just need to recognise that it is a good degree to have rather than trying to up it's prestige at the expense of would-be arts students of the future.

dajaffa

I think rather than reduce the intake, Arts should do what quinn did and drastically reduce the sizes of individual classes and have more of them. It worked really well in Quinn, and with the develpoment plans for UCD, I'm sure at this stage they could make a decision to do something like this.

m1ke

and what are you? a theoretical commercial arcitectural ag scientist? there just arnt enough of you guys around.

I'm studying economics this year. Because it is too important to be left to the economists

So your plan is reduce income and increase expenditure..... clearly we need alot more economics lectures.

The faculty needs more funding and higher quality students who are actually interested in the subject. This would be a sound investment for any government, would you not agree?

hullaballoo

DJDC wrote:

Answers like that add nothing to the debate and are ridiculous. Of course reputation is important to a university.

What? It was probably the most relevant comment so far! He was saying that it shouldn't really matter whether or not arts has a bad reputation. It's about education, and a person's education is an individual thing, their own choice.

panda100

Do art students here feel that class sizes are too big and as a result there academic life at college is struggling?
Its obvious that the large class sizes in arts really inhibits social life as its tough to get to know people which is a bit of a prob

DJDC

hullaballoo you are missing the point. You have stated that

It's about education, and a person's education is an individual thing, their own choice.

But what you will find is that as Mike put it,arts needs

higher quality students who are actually interested in the subject

You will find that a significant number of arts students (>50%) only ended up in arts by default ie they did not get their first choice.It was not their choice to end up there,it simply happened as a result of the CAO process.This is the reason they arent happy because they never wanted to be studying arts.

In my opinion Elymra has made some very valid points about the class sizes and the importance of quality education.

failsafe

m1ke wrote:

The faculty needs more funding and higher quality students who are actually interested in the subject. This would be a sound investment for any government, would you not agree?

I just meant that your plan defies simple economic logic, i.e you can't increase output (higher budget) whilest also decreasing input (less students fees)

If you decrease the amount of students i don't see how it will increase the amount of interested students.

For examples sake, if there are 1,000 students are in arts, 50% because they are interested ("quality students") and the other half by default. If you reduce the spaces to 500, you'd still have 500 interested students (or possibly less as reduced supply would lead to increased price (points) and act as a barrier to entry for some interested students)

So what's the harm in having 1,000 students? The college gets extra funding to spend on facilities for the quality students (in an ideal world)

TheVan

People have been asking why UCD needs to be competitive at all and why it should worry its head about rankings. Well the main reasons I can see are;
Higher rankings attract better lecturers
Better lecturers and higher rankings show a desire to reach higher degrees of excellence and attract more funding and philanthropy

To be honest I think there is too much emphasis on arts in UCD. If you look at Trinity, they have the "excellence in humanities" thing sewn up...its unlikely we could ever beat them on it.
At the same time, diversity is good for a college, so there's no way it should be gotten rid of.

I think a reduction of numbers in, and emphasis on, arts needs to take place. As well as a broad arts degree which provides teachers, civil servants and others, there should be a second stream of more specialised students.

We must remember that UCD is suffering from mediocrity. Simply churning the students out once they have their degree without a thought to highly qualified persons. The Quinn School has succeeded in raising itself in European Rankings (number 14 in Europe) and has actively created a system whereby students inevitably go on to postgrad study.

Arts is important, but it shouldn't be the fulcrum around which the college revolves.

anonymous_joe

I did a couple of art's subjects for electives (sociology :rolleyes: ), and I must say, a big giant room of a few hundred people is not great for learning. (Although I could say the same about Acc and Eco)

Biggest problem was the whole soulless mass ethos. The only people I knew were the handful of lads from school, who weren't that interested in it, and who ended up skipping it most of the time, which I did too.

Smaller lectures would definitely benefit the course, and help it improve.

snickerpuss

Not that many subjects have hundreds of people in them and they generally are smaller once you're in 2nd and 3rd you as you divide up for different electives etc...

I would hate to see this 50 places in every subject thing, how would you decide who gets what subject? And what if you have points for one subject and not the other? You would have to pick before you got here like trinity. The fact that i could choose the course once i got here was a big factor as if you've to pick beforehand i could see more dropouts happening cos you wouldn't be able to change subject if you didnt like it.

Plus there was say 100odd people in irish last year, i'd hate if only 50 could do it just for the sake of it. (its nice that lots of people take irish)

Also with subjects like art history alot of people do it as their 'other nice' subject in first year and drop it, what if loads drop it and you only end up with a few people in 2nd year? Would that justify a whole department?

I'm waffling but thems my thoughts anyway.

ferdi

panda100 wrote:

Do art students here feel that class sizes are too big and as a result there academic life at college is struggling?
Its obvious that the large class sizes in arts really inhibits social life as its tough to get to know people which is a bit of a prob

yeah i dont really think the size of my classes effect my academic prospects (except that there are 99 other people all going fo the 2 copies of the book needed for an essay:rolleyes: )
it really is just the social thing, like unless your a total social animal its hard to start talking to people, simply because the group is so damn big - thats why boards.i is handy -> you get a nice small number of people from across the all the faculties.

hullaballoo

I'd have to agree with ferdi on that point. Having small classes does make socialising easier, and that is a very important part of college. It also helps from an academic point of view in terms of discussions in class etc.

I reckon arts should just be reorganised, and it should be a priority for the Brady Administration. It would cost an awful lot of money, and probably mean that the arts block would need to be expanded, but I always feel that a college should be about producing rounded individuals.