Is it EVER okay?

anonymous_joe

Hurrah.

Red Alert

Sange and Firespinner surely that makes a manifesto pointless and they may as well throw dice for the seat...

Back OT, this isn't about what some member of the GA may or may not do.

JHJ's motion is based on the fact that the president of the SU, employed/elected to act on their behalf failed to represent the position of council as required by his mandate.

singingstranger

Basically it's not a case of whether the other members of GA can be trusted or not. James's mandate only obliges him to distribute the minutes of the Finance Committee meetings to the other student members of GA, who are Jane herself and Abey Campbell (who sits as a non-SU affiliated postgraduate students' rep). (Caveat: there might be a fourth but I can't remember who it is right now.) The matter at hand, as was debated at Council, is only to give Jane and Abey the minutes of the Finance Committee meetings.

It might be worth pointing out that James was out of the country when this Council took place. I would personally imagine that if he had BEEN at Council and had heard the debate on either side - as far as I remember all of his current reservations were pointed out at Council, but the motion was still passed - that he'd be following his mandate. tbh I'm surprised and disappointed that he's kicking up a fuss just because he wasn't there to speak against the motion personally.

For the sake of convenience I'm attaching a portion of the minutes from April 5th's Council, dealing with this motion and the debate that ensued.

panda100

As Ive said before I dont think Council is at all representative of the students its meant to represent so until new measures are brought in for the class rep/council system then I think UCD has every right to overturn a descision made by a bunch of looney hack politcal wannabees.

Edited after Singingstrangers post:

Intresting point made by Niall Dolan:
'He said that Paul Dillon had been kicked off the Committee by revealing a misallocation of funds that could have been better spent elsewhere. '

Is this the same Niall Dolann that has misued the student hardship fund and/or union funds for getting arressted at a anti-war march??

I think Luke Hayden got it spot on here:
'Voting yes would be a knee-jerk reaction'
While it is an admirable motion that Jane and Oisinn put forward I dont think they have thought about the consequences fully.As abey Cambell said students have worked hard to get a position on the ga
' Abey Campbell, speaking against, said that he sat on Governing Authority as a non-Union Postgraduate Rep. He said that lots of finance committees produced clean and sterilised versions of their minutes. The legal reasons for this are complex and intricate. Procedures are, however, in place to view these minutes, as a curb measure against leaks, and this process has been neglected as of late. There is only a concern about this at present because some Governors fear leaking of these minutes. He said that he felt this motion should have instead been presented at Governing Authority. He added that some forms of GA minutes were released and that they only said as much as could be genuinely offered without causing legal complications. He concluded that Students, with Staff, had fought for years to secure seats on GA and that these seats should not be jeopardised by irresponsibility. '

Also since the vote was so close.....19 votes to 17 and we know that there are unelected reps on council I think they should be asked to step down for that vote as they were not voted in by their class so are only representing themselves.

Vainglory

panda100 wrote:

As Ive said before I dont think Council is at all representative of the students its meant to represent so until new measures are brought in for the class rep/council system then I think UCD has every right to overturn a descision made by a bunch of looney hack politcal wannabees..

Panda do you not see that if you let the college overturn now, then they will have precedent to overturn anytime, no matter whether YOU think it's a good representative council or not.

panda100 wrote:

Is this the same Niall Dolann that has misued the student hardship fund and/or union funds for getting arressted at a anti-war march??..

Is this relevant at all?

panda100 wrote:

He said that lots of finance committees produced clean and sterilised versions of their minutes. The legal reasons for this are complex and intricate. Procedures are, however, in place to view these minutes, as a curb measure against leaks, and this process has been neglected as of late. There is only a concern about this at present because some Governors fear leaking of these minutes. He said that he felt this motion should have instead been presented at Governing Authority. He added that some forms of GA minutes were released and that they only said as much as could be genuinely offered without causing legal complications. He concluded that Students, with Staff, had fought for years to secure seats on GA and that these seats should not be jeopardised by irresponsibility. '.

I think this is where me and you fundamentally differ. Of course, I agree that positions on committees are useful. But I do not think that positions on committees are in any way useful if you do nothing with them. If you are not allowed to represent the wishes of the people who pay your wages, then there is really no point being on the committee at all. We are being trampled all over here, and it is time to take a stand. I do not want "clean" and "sterilised" minutes. As a governor of this University, I want access to the minutes of the Finance Committee, as is the case for my sabbatical friends in TCD and DCU, for example. And what's this mad preoccupation with leaks? How would you define a leak? "Something they would rather we didn't know about." UCD is funded predominantly by public money. If there's anything dodgy here then shouldn't we know about it?

I also don't call "following mandate given to the President by class reps" irresponsible. I call it doing his bloody job.

UCD themselves have created a climate of distrust and suspicion here. Surely, if there's nothing that wouldn't worry students and taxpayers in the minutes, then they would just show them to us rather than create all this fuss.

panda100 wrote:

Also since the vote was so close.....19 votes to 17 and we know that there are unelected reps on council I think they should be asked to step down for that vote as they were not voted in by their class so are only representing themselves.

........

All reps on council are elected. Some are elected unopposed (Like Mary McAleese. You know her, right?) But all are elected. If we only had the contested election class reps voting on this motion then there would probably only be about 20 people on council.

singingstranger wrote:

It might be worth pointing out that James was out of the country when this Council took place. I would personally imagine that if he had BEEN at Council and had heard the debate on either side - as far as I remember all of his current reservations were pointed out at Council, but the motion was still passed - that he'd be following his mandate. tbh I'm surprised and disappointed that he's kicking up a fuss just because he wasn't there to speak against the motion personally.

Gaaaaaav, come on. Do you really think that James just doesn't want to give me the minutes because he "didn't hear the arguments in favour?" James wouldn't give me those minutes even if the bloody Pope had come and argued on my side. He didn't intend to give them to me no matter what the vote at Council had been. And that, really, is the huge problem here.

panda100

Vainglory wrote:

All reps on council are elected. .

Really???Why even some of the reps themselves admit that they were not elected......for example over on the UCD site the fourth year mech eng rep when I asked him did he run as an elected class rep...

'Class reps: Yes, Elected: No (speaking for myself only). I'm not that representative of my class, to say the least'

Well at least he had the gumption to admit he was not democratically elected and he even admits he is not representative of his class then excuse me If I ignore everything that council passes and Im not suprised Hugh Brady and Nolan do the same!

Vainglory

panda100 wrote:

Really???Why even some of the reps themselves admit that they were not elected......for example over on the UCD site the fourth year mech eng rep when I asked him did he run as an elected class rep...

'Class reps: Yes, Elected: No (speaking for myself only). I'm not that representative of my class, to say the least'

Well at least he had the gumption to admit he was not democratically elected and he even admits he is not representative of his class then excuse me If I ignore everything that council passes and Im not suprised Hugh Brady and Nolan do the same!

Perhaps Conor was confused. All class reps are elected. Some are elected unopposed. But they are still elected. If you would like to double check this, I think the Returning Officer Morgan Shelley has an account on this site.

singingstranger

Vainglory wrote:

All class reps are elected. Some are elected unopposed. But they are still elected.

This be true, Panda - it's not like I was appointed as Vice-Secretary and then Secretary, I was elected, just nobody allowed their name forward to run against me.

Only elections I've ever been involved in that I won. Which in one way makes me smirk, but in another way desperately sad. *has flashbacks of the Sabbat elections* Sigh.

Anyway, yes, all Class Reps are elected, but they just don't bother holding a ballot if there's only going to be one name on the paper, á la the McAleese example that Vainglory offered. tbh because of this, a lot of Class Rep elections are never publicised at all (say if the candidate slyly just goes around, gets 10 signatures, sends in their form and is unopposed for the job) and many Reps simply don't feel accountable to their classes as a result. This is the sort of thing that has the Union in the state that it is, where a lot of policy motions are being passed while many other people think that those who support them are in the minority.

**edit: sticking this in to avoid a double post.

Vainglory wrote:

Gaaaaaav, come on. Do you really think that James just doesn't want to give me the minutes because he "didn't hear the arguments in favour?" James wouldn't give me those minutes even if the bloody Pope had come and argued on my side. He didn't intend to give them to me no matter what the vote at Council had been. And that, really, is the huge problem here.

Jaaaaaaane, I think you're missing me just a tad. What I mean is that I think James feels detached from responsibility to the particular motion because it wasn't really passed under his watch. Which of course, is a fundamental irresponsibility on his part too.

I do think, though, that had he been present when it was passed that he would follow his mandate. Feel free to call me naive but I reckon he genuinely would.

Red Alert

The fact is with all the small and large changes happening in UCD in this few years, the taxpayer, student, and staff member all need to see who's making the decisions and for what reason. There was no reason to refurbish Hugh Brady's house and keep it secret. What other similar abuses are going on that we don't know about.

It is pointless being a spectator on the GA if Jane & Co. cannot change anything because they are being hindered not only by the administration, but by their own president.

If James refuses to do as the motion says he should be removed from his office. Can a vote of council secure this?

(Eugenia K (Finance Officer) says in the council minutes that 17 year old reps can't see shop staff pensions - i presume she means there's an SU finance commitee?)

Blowfish

I'm actually with Abey on this one. If I read correctly, the council voted to make the president reveal the info to others. Surely the council should be asking the GA to be allowed to do this, rather than the president? If the GA don't want it done, all they have to do is kick the president out. I can see why the president is going against this.

As regards the original question about the general case, I think the college should be able to overule certain stuff. Just as i'm sure everyone in the SU would agree that a college that ignores the requests and decisions of the SU could end up in bad situations for the students, the converse is also true. An SU which ignores the requests and decisions of the college will cause problems also.

Red Alert

So suppose the college decides it's going to get into bed with Centra, and ban (or ask the SU not to) run shops should they obey?

Vainglory

Blowfish wrote:

I'm actually with Abey on this one. If I read correctly, the council voted to make the president reveal the info to others. Surely the council should be asking the GA to be allowed to do this, rather than the president? If the GA don't want it done, all they have to do is kick the president out. I can see why the president is going against this..

SIPTU reps on GA already asked to be allowed see the minutes. I supported them on this. But, (as ALWAYS), the bigger wigs voted us down. This is my point - sometimes just being on the committees doesn't allow you to get things done.

Blowfish wrote:

As regards the original question about the general case, I think the college should be able to overule certain stuff. Just as i'm sure everyone in the SU would agree that a college that ignores the requests and decisions of the SU could end up in bad situations for the students, the converse is also true. An SU which ignores the requests and decisions of the college will cause problems also.

Errr...

Do you actually think the "converse" is true? I wasn't aware that the SU had the power to literally overrule the College's decisions (sure wouldn't it be a great world if we could?). However, in this case, they would be given the power to overrule Council decisions.

panda100

singingstranger wrote:

This be true, Panda - it's not like I was appointed as Vice-Secretary and then Secretary, I was elected, just nobody allowed their name forward to run against me.

I dont think its true ss and vainglory and have proof to back this up. I am not talking about being elected as Vice Secratary...that is completely different...Once again you are voted in by members of council not us students.
I am talking about being voted in as class rep.If you are run unapposed thats fine but you should still get up infront of your class and say 'Im running as your class rep even though Im runnning unapposed could you still all write down on a piece of paer whether you would ron me or have me be as your class rep'. I have never seen this done in an unapossed class rep election.Usually the person just puts there number down as the class rep list.

AS was the case for Amy morgan,good friend of mine and our class rep two years ago. She knew someone in the union and they just wrote her number down and there she was class rep.Of course she was unapposed but it still doesnt make it...there should have been a ron vote etc. Also bigJimthefirst's class rep this year (forgotten her name again) is down as third year class rep and used it to her advantage in the med soc secratary elections.....yet we have never seen her and there was no election,unoppsed or not.

Im positive this is not just medicine and happens in other courses too. Dave Curran run unopposed this year but he was still elected fairly but this is not the case in class reps....Its just a case of if no one else runs then you just put your name down.

singingstranger

Red Alert wrote:

If James refuses to do as the motion says he should be removed from his office. Can a vote of council secure this?

I think you need to collect the 800-or-so signatures and hold an impeachment referendum, which is an utterly pointless exercise this late in his term.

Red Alert wrote:

(Eugenia K (Finance Officer) says in the council minutes that 17 year old reps can't see shop staff pensions - i presume she means there's an SU finance commitee?)

Well, given that the Management Committee as created in the March amendments has room for a Rep or two (again, can't quite remember which, my constitutional knowledge has been displaced by Management Accounting), it was brought up and agreed at Exec when we were drafting the (since-abandoned or postponed or whatever) new document that it was unreasonable to have Reps on the committee because it was unfair to have these students - possibly of 17 years old - privy to the pension details of the shop staff.

singingstranger

panda100 wrote:

I am talking about being voted in as class rep.If you are run unapposed thats fine but you should still get up infront of your class and say 'Im running as your class rep even though Im runnning unapposed could you still all write down on a piece of paer whether you would ron me or have me be as your class rep'. I have never seen this done in an unapossed class rep election.Usually the person just puts there number down as the class rep list.

Well, the basic idea is that you need 10 signatures from your constituents on your nomination form. If you can't get the 10 then clearly there's a mass-movement against you getting the seat. Any rep on Council is supposed to have been 'endorsed' in this way by 10 of their Constituents. I think this year in the end, Dave decreed that any ten students could sign a form, which of course meant that it was open for a load of unpopular students to sign each others forms and get each other into office. Which, I might add, is unconstitutional.

panda100 wrote:

AS was the case for Amy morgan,good friend of mine and our class rep two years ago. She knew someone in the union and they just wrote her number down and there she was class rep.Of course she was unapposed but it still doesnt make it...there should have been a ron vote etc. Also bigJimthefirst's class rep this year (forgotten her name again) is down as third year class rep and used it to her advantage in the med soc secratary elections.....yet we have never seen her and there was no election,unoppsed or not.

I have no idea about BigJim's rep so I'm not going to touch on that one, but if this was the case with Amy then that, too, was deeply unconstitutional, unless the person she knew in the office went and got the signatures on her behalf.

panda100 wrote:

Im positive this is not just medicine and happens in other courses too. Dave Curran run unopposed this year but he was still elected fairly but this is not the case in class reps....Its just a case of if no one else runs then you just put your name down.

tbh what you're after is a RON provision for all class rep elections - which on the face of it is a good idea, and to an extent I agree with you, because it would publicise every Class Rep election - but given the huge amount of uncontested elections there are, it simply wouldn't be worth the money to have ballot papers printed for them.

Again, it all boils down to apathy on the part of the students in general, who couldn't give a crap how their own Rep votes at Council. Because of this, the Reps themselves become apathetic to their constituents' views and stop being Reps and merely Councillors.
I know I'm treading on thinning ice here but frankly I think that's the reason why there are so many decisions passed at Council that seem largely to fly in the face of the beliefs of most of the student body.

Sorry for going off-topic but I guess the principle of Reps voting according to their own views in every Council vote is parallel to what James seems to be at, and what some other people were talking about earlier with regard to TD's (or whoever) having private time to still follow their own ideas.

Red Alert

Cheers ss, i was just making sure that this was a different commitee, as the comment seemed a bit orthogonal to the main thread of discussion in the motion.

The way I see it despite the intervention of the IAB, Carroll's credibility is unrepairably tarnished.

He sits as an SU Rep on the GA. His primary duty of care is to the SU. Morally he therefore must do as the SU directs or leave. Council is there to debate the consequences of any such action. The only decision for him to make is to follow council's mandate or remove himself from his position.

Blowfish

Vainglory wrote:

Do you actually think the "converse" is true? I wasn't aware that the SU had the power to literally overrule the College's decisions (sure wouldn't it be a great world if we could?). However, in this case, they would be given the power to overrule Council decisions.

It doesn't have to overturn decisions to be too powerful. An example (and I know it's a different situation, but it's just an example) is the teachers unions. It is far too difficult to sack teachers who are absolutely crap at their job. I had some of them in school, and tbh they simply were in the wrong job, they couldn't teach for the life of them (thankfully the college lecturers i've had are grand, some not perfect, but ok none the less). The school couldn't get rid of them though, as they would immediately have the unions on their back. Having the bad teachers stay was obviously not in the best interests of the students, no matter what way you look at it. Don't get me wrong, I am all in favour of unions, as they do prevent people from being sacked for stupid reasons (among other things), but I don't believe either side should have too much sway with the other.

Vorsprung

panda100 wrote:

Also bigJimthefirst's class rep this year (forgotten her name again) is down as third year class rep and used it to her advantage in the med soc secratary elections.....yet we have never seen her and there was no election,unoppsed or not.

Just to clarify, I never did find out if she was actually our rep, but yea it was used as a campaign line alright.

EDIT - Actually did we find out Panda?

singingstranger

I DO remember seeing a name for one somewhere but when I was given the list at the start of the year I don't recall one being on it. I'll have a look.

**edit: No, no sign. Interesting enough. I think I might have seen her name in the What's On guide or something. If one of you two could PM me her name I could tell you if hers is the name I saw?

panda100

singingstranger wrote:

tbh what you're after is a RON provision for all class rep elections - which on the face of it is a good idea, and to an extent I agree with you, because it would publicise every Class Rep election - but given the huge amount of uncontested elections there are, it simply wouldn't be worth the money to have ballot papers printed for them.

.

So there is alot of uncontested elections for class reps......thought as much
Anyway my point is these uncontested,undemocrattically elected reps do not represnt us students as a whole.I think UCD realise this and so passing this motion at council really bears no weight with them.

I have tried to explain on the other thread why so many of these class rep positions are uncontested and why students and UCD dont really give a sh*t about council meetings beacuse of the silly motions passed at them. Yet all we hear is continually defence of a corrupt system with the only people involved who want to see UCD move back 100 years.

Red alert , Vainglory, prettymonster have made it very clear that they think Brady is a dangerous man. Well I am saying this for the record that I think those on the union who are a constant thorn in Nolans and Bradys side are dangerous (cue the wait too see whose dangerous when free fee's are introduced argument:rolleyes: ) will drag this college back 10 paces. This university has come on more in the last two years then it has in the last 10years and thats all thanks to Hugh Brady and his shake up of an old college. How does passing this motion help us ,the students, relationship with the colllege authorities? Not at all,but you keep on fighting the fight...solidarity and all:rolleyes:

panda100

singingstranger wrote:

I DO remember seeing a name for one somewhere but when I was given the list at the start of the year I don't recall one being on it. I'll have a look.

**edit: No, no sign. Interesting enough. I think I might have seen her name in the What's On guide or something. If one of you two could PM me her name I could tell you if hers is the name I saw?

Yep her name was definatly in the whats on guide cos I remeber seeing it and thinking wtf when I was going to run for welfare. I cant remeber her name,no one knew her thats the funny thing yet she brought up at med soc election bout her union involvment.Im sure if she got away with this its pretty easy for anyone to get away with it. Actually I dont ever remember a vote for my su class rep election.I remember Ronan sugrue and David C were both it at one stage both great guys but we most certainly didnt vote them in.I think David C mates lived with Paul D and so he was written down on the list that year.

humbert

panda100 wrote:

So there is alot of uncontested elections for class reps......thought as much
Anyway my point is these uncontested,undemocrattically elected reps do not represnt us students as a whole.I think UCD realise this and so passing this motion at council really bears no weight with them.

I have tried to explain on the other thread why so many of these class rep positions are uncontested and why students and UCD dont really give a sh*t about council meetings beacuse of the silly motions passed at them. Yet all we hear is continually defence of a corrupt system with the only people involved who want to see UCD move back 100 years.

Red alert , Vainglory, prettymonster have made it very clear that they think Brady is a dangerous man. Well I am saying this for the record that I think those on the union who are a constant thorn in Nolans and Bradys side are dangerous (cue the wait too see whose dangerous when free fee's are introduced argument ) will drag this college back 10 paces. This university has come on more in the last two years then it has in the last 10years and thats all thanks to Hugh Brady and his shake up of an old college. How does passing this motion help us ,the students, relationship with the colllege authorities? Not at all,but you keep on fighting the fight...solidarity and all

SingingStranger wrote:

Again, it all boils down to apathy on the part of the students in general, who couldn't give a crap how their own Rep votes at Council. Because of this, the Reps themselves become apathetic to their constituents' views and stop being Reps and merely Councillors.
I know I'm treading on thinning ice here but frankly I think that's the reason why there are so many decisions passed at Council that seem largely to fly in the face of the beliefs of most of the student body.

I think contrary to what panda has suggested it isn't the union’s stance on things the student populous deem irrelevant that imbues apathy among them. I think it’s simply that for the most part things are fine and while things are fine the union isn’t of much use. I think it’s these stances on irrelevant things that irks students and causes them sometimes to get involved to change things and sometimes just to dislike the union. On the subject of uncontested elections it is probably better for more classes to be represented in the union even in this way, it does mean the union ends up being populated by often less than ideal candidates as ss pointed out while apathy prevails there isn’t much that can be done about that. I think people regard Brady as dangerous because he’s inclined to run the college as a business whereas the union aren’t dangerous because they aren’t powerful enough to be dangerous, but then again I don’t have a chip on my shoulder so probably don’t see things from quite the same perspective.

panda100

humbert wrote:

I think it’s these stances on irrelevant things that irks students and causes them sometimes to get involved to change things and sometimes just to dislike the union.

I couldnt disagree with this more.I think people dont want to get involoved because of all the political crap that comes with being a class rep(just look at Zane from mtv for an example of that).People view the union as being a place for hacks and wannabee politicans.Its there stances on the irrelevant things which forces more people away from the union and more people to not give a toss about what the student union does or says,especially times when the unions voice really needs to be heared.

humbert wrote:

On the subject of uncontested elections it is probably better for more classes to be represented in the union even in this way, it does mean the union ends up being populated by often less than ideal candidates as ss pointed out while apathy prevails there isn’t much that can be done about that.

Once again I couldnt disagree with this more. I think it would be better having a select few properly elected reps then those who just put there number and email down on the class rep emailing list. Can u imagine if we did this in dail eaireann?The chaos that would ensue if some counties just had any old person to represent them.I think that county would be better with no representation then a representative that is using their position to further their own political agenda.

In med soc class rep election every year everyone in the class writes who they want to be class rep on a piece of paper,their first choice and second choice...or if there is only one person running they vote yes or no.Then a group of 5 or so people count them up at the top of the class and someone is democraticallly elected. I cant see how that is so tough for each class to do.Its an improvemnet on what is evidently going on at the moment with class reps just putting their name down and then admitting to being 'unrepresentative of their class to say the least'

humbert wrote:

I think people regard Brady as dangerous because he’s inclined to run the college as a business whereas the union aren’t dangerous because they aren’t powerful enough to be dangerous,

I think the union could be powerful if it wanted to be but it isnt because people just dont care about it and for those reasons see my first point or any other post Ive written on here about the union. Brady running the university as a buisness......
........is this because he wants to make it a 24hour campus,I can only see that this will benefit us. Belfield is always so dead (apart from hilpers) after 8.I say kudos to the man for trying to make it a busttling,24 hour campus.Its more then the union have ever done with their dead as a dodo student centre after 5 in the evening.

......Is this because he advetised on the radio and television?How is this a bad thing?More people applied to UCD this year then any other college in Ireland.Why should we keep UCD as our little secret of course he should advertise both nationally and internationally

.....Is this beacuse he put in a few new fountains and lighting to make the college a bit more 'presentable' looking. One minute we're complaing about how ugly UCD is and when Brady tries to make it look a bit better to make it look a bit more modern,suddenly he's dangerous....

humbert wrote:

but then again I don’t have a chip on my shoulder so probably don’t see things from quite the same perspective.

If people view me as having a chip on my shoulder here,I am really sorry about that.I really am only offering my opinion and trying to help the union by giving vainglory and others on here my reasons why no one turns up to her modularisation meetings etc.

singingstranger

panda100 wrote:

In med soc class rep election every year everyone in the class writes who they want to be class rep on a piece of paper,their first choice and second choice...or if there is only one person running they vote yes or no.Then a group of 5 or so people count them up at the top of the class and someone is democraticallly elected. I cant see how that is so tough for each class to do.Its an improvemnet on what is evidently going on at the moment with class reps just putting their name down and then admitting to being 'unrepresentative of their class to say the least'

Fantastic system. The only problems with using this to appoint SU Class Reps are that (1) that would undermine the job of the Returning Officer and (2) it ignores the obligation to get ten signatories to a nomination form as endorsement.

On a side issue, I'd love to have a system where Class Reps on Council can only vote on motions if they can prove that that's how their constituents have mandated them to vote. Even just supplying a number of some sort. Constitutionally every Rep is supposed to vote as a majority of their constituents wish them to. Never happens. Hence the non-representative decisions of Council. If there was some way to prove it was happening - get some Constituents to sign a form/declaration as a proof that the class(es) have voted, and voted in the manner that the Class Rep does themselves - or something. Something needs doing to stop the rogue Class Reps from overrunning the votes of the Reps who do their jobs.

Eoin Macollamh

panda100,

I'm a lecturer at UCD. Like virtually all of my colleagues (i.e., your teachers) I am opposed to what Hugh Brady has done since taking office. And this is because, like most of my colleagues, I have quite a lot of experience at other universities and I know how they are run.

The problem with the Brady administration can be summed up in one word: authoritarianism. These guys came in and, on the basis of no hard evidence whatsoever, decided that UCD was a "sleeping giant" (rather than, say, a "starving giant"). And they decided that the problem was not the woeful intellectual infrastructure of the place (the library, the facilities, the meagre possibilities for research leave, the pitiful funding for innovation in research or teaching) but that the lecturers were a bunch of know-nothing lazy slobs who needed to feel the sting of the lash. Needless to say, I disagree with this diagnosis. The hiring process at UCD is as rigourous as any I've seen anywhere. It would be quite surprising if the people hired by this process turned out to be anything other than dedicated professionals. Obviously there will always be a few exceptions, but I've found my colleagues to be, by and large, exceptionally committed people.

UCD had problems under the previous regime. Of that there is no doubt. These problems were: chronic underfunding, a woeful research and teaching infrastructure (from labs and classroom equipment to the pitiful state of the library), and, above all, extremely inflexible structures from a bygone era that made certain kinds of teaching and courses impossible. Above all, we needed what our colleagues in American universities (and, indeed, any university worth emulating) have: greater autonomy in designing curricula and research agendas.

Under Brady, virtually none of this has been dealt with. Instead, what we have is a regime that is even more inflexible than the previous one. Yes, modularisation adds some flexibility for students. But that is more than compensated by the extreme centralisation that has gone on in every other domain. What this means, concretely, is that administrators and not the lecturers themselves are making crucial decisions about what deserves to be taught, what kind of research should be done (i.e., funded), etc.

And here's the key: these administrators are not experts and all of them--from the Vice Presidents to the College Principals to the Heads of School-- were appointed from the top and without any sort of open competition. Their main qualification, in most cases, was a willingness to play along. In other words, decisions about what to teach and research have been taken out of the hands of those who are most familiar with the subjects and closest to the students and put into the hands of people who know almost nothing about either.

I'll give you only one example. Several of the new Schools that have been formed are nothing but intellectual monsters that have no coherent rationale. The School of Languages, Literatures and Film is an obvious one. There is no advantage whatsoever when it comes to our primary missions of teaching and research in having the former Departments agglomerated into schools that make no sense. Far from making the institution more responsive to student and lecturer needs, these Schools make them less responsive. The advantage, of course, is that they are far easier for the administration to deal with.

That is how things have gone all down the line: the decisions that have been pushed through are virtually always done in the interests of the administrators and virtually never in the interests of students, lecturers or the nation. And if you think that that is going to make UCD a better place, think about this: lecturers are mobile. The best ones aren't going to stand for this crap. They'll vote with their feet and go to institutions where the administrators don't assume that they know the lecturers' jobs better than do the lecturers themselves. Enlightened administrators understand that the lecturers are the main resource a university has, that they are by and large dedicated professionals and that you will get them to perform at their best if you inspire them and create the conditions that make better performance possible. You will not get much of anything at all if you disparage them (which Brady has), threaten them (ditto) and treat them with complete contempt. This is Brady's first university presidency and he's a very young and inexperienced man for such a job. I'm afraid he's got a lot to learn.

So, feel free to remain impressed with the new lighting, the advertising campaigns, the banners, etc. But recognise that we still have a library unsuitable for any kind of serious research, that the lecturers are almost universally demoralised by the way the university is being run (into the ground) and that none of this is likely to make UCD a better place in which to learn, teach or carry out research.

P.S. Any time anyone refers to "the rankings" please be aware that there are no reliable rankings of universities any more than there are reliable ratings of "best people."

P.P.S. I realise that this forum exists for the students. If you would rather I not contribute, I will understand entirely and go back to lurking.

hullaballoo

Eoin Macollamh wrote:

P.P.S. I realise that this forum exists for the students. If you would rather I not contribute, I will understand entirely and go back to lurking.

That's about the only point I'd like to take issue with you about. This forum is for absolutely anyone and everyone without any regard for their status or occupation. The fact of the matter is that it is used mostly by students, but the forum exists for anyone who has anything to say about UCD. Anyone at all.

I must extend a warm welcome to you, it is great to have some input from lecturers as it gives an extra side to the story that can only be a good thing insofar as discussion goes. Ideally, every lecture would have an account, and would give input into the debate and discussion that is ongoing in here.

As for the rest of your post, I will reserve comment save for saying that I have heard similar sentiments expressed by lecturers before. I think that this comes down to some fatal HR methods by Dr Brady, and I am somewhat glad to be finished with UCD after the 2006-2007 academic year (assuming that it will still be called the 2006-2007 academic year by the time I'm finished!)

Byrno

Firstly I absolutely disagree with James' decision to ignore a council mandate. Personally I abstained from the vote as I could see the arguements for both sides and I was split down the middle on how to vote. However a council decision is a council decision, even if you weren't present. Only a referendum or a general meeting can overturn it. The college, a sabbat or a class rep cannot change it on their own.

Panda, both years I have been a class rep I have been uncontested. However I have attempted to consult my class on motions at council but to be honest I have never gotten any response from people. I do think though that it is better for someone to be there than no-one at all. Hopefully though next year there will be more people going for class rep what with Wonderdave and all his sidekicks (us PRO's!) pushing them even more than last year.

I do think that there is a real case for a RON option for class rep elections. It would increase the profile of the class rep in the class, force re-running class reps to be accountable to their class and if they haven't been doing a good job they will be able to be gotten rid of whereas if they have been doing a good job they should have nothing to worry about.

Concerning the 3rd Med SU class rep I have never heard of one being elected through the union, or a nomination form being handed in, nor have I seen her at any SU event or met her. If I had I would've been on to her getting her to do stuff! Personally I believe that for her to use the fact that she was a SU rep when she did nothing is a disgrace.

humbert wrote:

I think contrary to what panda has suggested it isn't the union’s stance on things the student populous deem irrelevant that imbues apathy among them. I think it’s simply that for the most part things are fine and while things are fine the union isn’t of much use. I think it’s these stances on irrelevant things that irks students and causes them sometimes to get involved to change things and sometimes just to dislike the union.

I think you hit the nail on the head here humbert. In the main people are only interested in unions when trouble is on the horizon. It's the same in the general workforce. When lay-offs are announced in a company you'll see a sudden increase in union membership

ozt9vdujny3srf

This is a forum for people who wish to have discussions about UCD as opposed to students in particular and anyone who has an argument is welcome to post.

And it certainly is nice to get things from the teachinig staffs' perspective.

<Edit>Bah, damn you hullaballoo! while i was reading the thread you scamp!

panda100

I rember you being a 'lecturer' when Uberwolf was the mod.As far as I can remember we never did get any proof that you were a lecturer and you also came out with the following statements

Eoin Macollamh wrote:

However, the people from the medical faculty who are currently running the university have an obvious arrogance. They think they know a lot more than they do.

Is that all you can say about them.....arrogant meds....as a lurker you should know by know that everyone in UCD has a bee in their bonnet about 'arrogant' meds.This isnt any reason to slate Bradys changes though

Eoin Macollamh wrote:

Also, no offence, but the average student isn't smart enough to interest me..

Eoin Macollamh wrote:

I seriously doubt it. The guy (I assume it's a guy) is barely literate.
On second thought, maybe he is a lecturer in medicine.:rolleyes:

And I remember quite a few of us replying like this:

psi wrote:

You see when you make statements like these that are not only pompous and arrogant, but also uninformed and incorrect then its obvious that you are either not who you say you are, or just very informed about your surroundings.

peachypants wrote:

you clearly underestimate the majority of students in this college and to be honest so far you have deserved the hostile reaction that you have received.

I am highly dubious of your want to help stuents and staff and your credentials as a lecturer....sorry! (PM me if you wish)

Red Alert

No Eoin, you've very welcome. It's very good for all of us to have a lecturer's input rather than saying what ye probably think