Afghan hunger strike in St Patricks.

billy the squid

Degsy wrote:

And what in the name of Allah and all the prophets do you think would happen if a bunch of us irishmen occupied a mosque in Kabul so we could be allowed to change the law of the land?

Why a bunch of Irish going to Kabul is unlikely, what about the Irish who took part in the "day without illegals " protest in the US. Those protests brought several cities to a grinding halt trafic wise with their marches, and certain businesses had to close down.

billy the squid

Heinrich wrote:

No, I do not. They should be rounded up and put on a boat bound for the far shores of Karachi!

15 year old boys are not men! How they get it into their heads to hunger strike is a muslim thing which we do not really understand.

Or you could just skip afghanistan and send them straight to guantanimo. That is where they are likely to end up whether they are guilty of crimes or not.

Unless you would be willing to sit in a concentration camp like that for several years without a trial then you are in no position to decide whether sending these people home or not is a good idea. It is not a good idea to send them home as their human rights are at risk, serious risk. The government are to blame for this because they have such a high rejection rate for asylum seekers from Afghanistan to begin with. We accept refugees where there are no wars going on, while at the same time we pander to the US by sending refugees back to countries where they are likely to be used as target practice or to fill up the cells of the US either in places like Abu Garrib or Guantanimo.

billy the squid

babybundy wrote:

and dont bring bobby sands in to this

why not? him and several of his buddies did the same thing, and you lot want McDowell to do what Thatcher did.

billy the squid

scop wrote:

Last I checked we werent an imperial power occupying a part of Afghanistan or that we in fact have any real relationship to that country at all.

Our "allies" in the US are though, unless the Gitmo express just went around shannon as opposed to refueling there, whech , evidence suggests , it did.

TheTruthFairy

billy the squid wrote:

Or you could just skip afghanistan and send them straight to guantanimo. That is where they are likely to end up whether they are guilty of crimes or not..

Sure, they are so likely to end up in Guantanamo!

Current population of Guantanamo = 490 detainees

Population of Afgahanistan = estimated to be 30 million.

Now I know to back up your lefty open borders nonsense you'd like to believe that evil nasty America are carting millions of muslims off to a concentration camp out of anti-islamic feelings but that is simply not the case.

billy the squid wrote:

Unless you would be willing to sit in a concentration camp like that for several years without a trial then you are in no position to decide whether sending these people home or not is a good idea. .

Totally stupid argument there bud.

billy the squid wrote:

It is not a good idea to send them home as their human rights are at risk, serious risk. .

Billions of people in the world are not as lucky to live in countries whose leaders respect their human rights. It is very sad but we cannot take everyone in. We can only comply with the UNHCR which we are doing. The long run solution to these problems is to improve the living standards of these countries by encouraging democracy and trade instead of shouting moronic slogans such as open borders and accusing people of racism for not caring about a childish hunger strike.

billy the squid wrote:

The government are to blame for this because they have such a high rejection rate for asylum seekers from Afghanistan to begin with.

These chaps have not even been rejected yet. They are ever so slightly jumping the gun. Perhaps had they all been informed they were going to be deported that day I might have a shred of sympathy for them.

billy the squid

TheTruthFairy wrote:

Sure, they are so likely to end up in Guantanamo!

Current population of Guantanamo = 490 detainees

Population of Afgahanistan = estimated to be 30 million.

It is even more likely now considering some of them have admitted being members of the Taliban. The ones that have not admitted this will be guilty by association.

Now I know to back up your lefty open borders nonsense you'd like to believe that evil nasty America are carting millions of muslims off to a concentration camp out of anti-islamic feelings but that is simply not the case.

Please point out where I said anything about Open borders in this thread.

As for carting off muslims, I suggest you go and google extraordinary rendition

The US government have admitted partaking in this action.

Totally stupid argument there bud.

We are not friends, do not call me bud.

Billions of people in the world are not as lucky to live in countries whose leaders respect their human rights. It is very sad but we cannot take everyone in. We can only comply with the UNHCR which we are doing. The long run solution to these problems is to improve the living standards of these countries by encouraging democracy and trade instead of shouting moronic slogans such as open borders and accusing people of racism for not caring about a childish hunger strike.

But it is ok to get their knickers in a knot when a few Irish terrorists do it right, and then to celebrate it 25 years later.

Considering the state that afghanistan is in right now I do believe if these people were to be returned, they would be in danger. That is grounds for requesting asylum.

These chaps have not even been rejected yet. They are ever so slightly jumping the gun. Perhaps had they all been informed they were going to be deported that day I might have a shred of sympathy for them.

According to news reports they have been

TheTruthFairy

billy the squid wrote:

Considering the state that afghanistan is in right now I do believe if these people were to be returned, they would be in danger. That is grounds for requesting asylum.

I agree that these are grounds for asylum. But why can't they apply the same way every other asylum seeker does, rather than taking over a church and using acts of emotional blackmail?

If the government give in to this nonsense protest what is to stop me going on hunger strike for a council house or a rocket car?

billy the squid wrote:

According to news reports they have been

Have been what? Rejected? Some have been rejected, not all. Nobody was lined up for deportation. And anyone whose appeal has been rejected is perfectly entitled to appeal (legally appeal I mean, not some self-pitying hunger strike).

tbh

paul666 wrote:

Let them rot.. us the tax payers wont have to pay their way home then.
LAW IS THE LAW
ask the usa that, we deal with it let them deal with it
we dont go to them extremes

This is a partial transcript of "The Big Story With John Gibson," March 16, 2006, that has been edited for clarity.

JOHN GIBSON, HOST: The president Thursday met with Ireland's prime minister on Capitol Hill. Bertie Ahern urged the Senate to pass legislation that would help tens of thousands of Irish people who are in this country illegally. Prime Minister Ahern joins us now.

Mr. Prime Minister, you had lunch with President Bush Thursday. He is in favor of some sort of guest worker program. Did you urge him to push this guest worker program so it will benefit Irish?

BERTIE AHERN, PRIME MINISTER OF IRELAND: Well, we certainly would like to see the whole issue resolved. I mean, what we have said is that the Kennedy-McCain bill brings a comprehensive resolution to the whole issue. We do not see the Irish issue being solved in isolation.

And I was with the president Thursday with Speaker Hastert's lunch for St. Patrick's Day. Friday I'll be having a more formal and more lengthy meeting. But we're anxious to see some resolution of the issues. We know how complex they are. We know that there are 12 million plus people that are undocumented in the United States, and we know how difficult it is for our friends on Capitol Hill to find resolution of all these issues. But they're important, as you would expect me to look from an Irish perspective, we have tens of thousands of Irish people here who are undocumented, many of them are here 20 or 30 years, many of them are far more recent.

(Story continues below)

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And now because of the obvious tightening of security, they find it very difficult. They can't go home. They want to pay their part here. They've settled here. And like generations of Irish people back over the last 150 years, they want to continue to be in the United States.

GIBSON: Mr. Ahern, when we think of illegal immigration, we think of Mexicans and OTMs, other than Mexicans. Frankly, who knew OTMs included Irish? How many?

AHERN: We reckon we don't have an exact figure for the simple reason, John, that people put their head down and they try to keep out of the way and not to create difficulties. And that's what the Irish have tended to do down through the generations.

We reckon it's probably somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000. Some would argue that it's higher than that. Our government estimate is somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000. Most of these people, practically all of these people are working. They consider themselves Irish-American now. Their families are here; they want to live here. They want to follow the same tradition that Irish people have had for generations: to come and work here and live here.

And it wasn't so difficult until recent years. We totally understand all the security difficulties that have happened after 9/11. But now they can't go home; they can't go home for family occasions, particularly funerals. It causes a lot of anguish for them. And as part of the debate that's going on now, particularly the McCain-Kennedy bill, which a lot of our people have been very supportive of, we have been supporting the efforts to find a resolution.

GIBSON: Mr. Prime Minister, I can't let you go without asking, what's the deal? I have my green tie on and you've changed out of your green tie into a red tie. What's the deal?

AHERN: Well, tonight, in an hour's time, I go to the Ireland Fund Dinner, so I'll be back in my green. And Friday's St. Patrick's Day. I'll make sure I'll have the shamrock on and the green tie.

GIBSON: All right, we'll be watching closely. Prime Minister Bertie Ahern, thanks for joining us.

AHERN: Thank you very much and Happy St. Patrick's Day.

GIBSON: Same to you.

billy the squid

TheTruthFairy wrote:

I agree that these are grounds for asylum. But why can't they apply the same way every other asylum seeker does, rather than taking over a church and using acts of emotional blackmail?

That is my whole point, they have applied in the proper way for assylum, however the Government in its efforts not to be seen being nice to people fleeing the human rights abuses being carried out by Afghanistan's occupiers, the US, are not giving them a fair decision on their application.

If the government give in to this nonsense protest what is to stop me going on hunger strike for a council house or a rocket car?

When was there ever anything stopping you from going on a hunger strike for a house. If you did you would not be the first person to do it.

Have been what? Rejected? Some have been rejected, not all. Nobody was lined up for deportation. And anyone whose appeal has been rejected is perfectly entitled to appeal (legally appeal I mean, not some self-pitying hunger strike).

again see my point above. The applications are not being rejected because afghanistan is a safe place, they are being rejected because McDowell thinks that keeping them safe from US torture chambers would piss off his american friends in washington.

TheTruthFairy

billy the squid wrote:

That is my whole point, they have applied in the proper way for assylum, .

For the millionth time they have NOT completed the asylum process, thus they have not applied in the proper way.

billy the squid wrote:

however the Government in its efforts not to be seen being nice to people fleeing the human rights abuses being carried out by Afghanistan's occupiers, the US, are not giving them a fair decision on their application

Funny that. The UNHCR is perfectly happy with Irelands asylum system.

billy the squid wrote:

again see my point above. The applications are not being rejected because afghanistan is a safe place, .

What are you talking about? Most of these chancers applications were not even rejected yet.

billy the squid wrote:

they are being rejected because McDowell thinks that keeping them safe from US torture chambers would piss off his american friends in washington.

If that was the case the UNHCR would strongly object.

TheTruthFairy

billy the squid wrote:

When was there ever anything stopping you from going on a hunger strike for a house. If you did you would not be the first person to do it.

My point was that if the government was seen to bow to hunger striking blackmail then quite a lot of people would attempt to use it as a tactic.

New_Departure06

Reading the press it now seems many and perhaps most of these asylum-seekers have not even had their applications processed yet. So they are protesting about what might be the outcome. That is totally unacceptable. I am especially outraged that minors are among the hunger-strikers. The HSE must intervene to protect the life of this child.

TheTruthFairy

Below is my favourite quote from Indymedia regarding this matter. These open-all-borders lunatics are vultures that want to play with their digital cameras (paid for by mummy and daddy, naturally).


do the men request 1 of non- corporate media in, if so, someone should go in,
by dunk Tue May 16, 2006 11:53
"if 1 of corporate media has been allowed in, is it possible, or desired by the men and their network, that 1 of the non-corporate, grassroots media that is IMC-IE be allowed in. have they someone who is a group spokesperson who is not on strike, think it would best serve the men if they requested 1 of imc to go in, for whatever reason"

Heinrich

The second man has also been given permission by the authorities to remain here as the father of an Irish-born child.

This little snippet from the Indo this norning tells it's own little story!

Way to go.................................

dathi1

So much of this thread is based on misinformation, gross ignorance, cultural and religious stereotyping and hysterical fear (Rest assured, whatever the outcome of this dispute, we will not be invaded by an army of starvation bent muslims, believe it or not, Belgium is managing just fine!). What is worrying is that so many people seem so happy to live in their nice safe little box with all their assumptions and even more happily consider themselves absolutely and completely and 100% right about the comments they have posted on this thread. What about reading a book? Find out about the Taliban and Afghanistan, find out if your assumptions are right or wrong. Better still, talk to an Afghan or someone who has been there. Have an adult discussion about a complex issue. Base your beliefs on facts.

I've been following the situation in Afghanistan since the Soviet Invasion by Brezhnev. The FACTS are Afghanistan is like most other war torn countries with its particular problems. The Taliban are well gone and only making a small comeback in the south. The Northern alliance who have there own version of suppression control most of the ministries in Kabul with the help of the US and Co. These people should have seeked economic asylum in the countries that tore their country apart in the first place. Russia (fat chance) is nearer to Afghanistan than Ireland is. Where are these people’s women and children????????? Yes…Afghanistan. They pulled this stunt off as the asylum process, flawed and expensive to Irish taxpayers as it is was not good enough for them. These people will play the death card or near death card as they have really a lot to loose. If we apply the standard that suicidal economic refugees (which I think these are) can claim asylum by blackmail then we end up like Belgium.

Archeron

Some of the comments in this thread are staggering.

An Irishman does not seem to be able to comment on the laws concerning immigration in his own country without being branded a racist. This is a disgusting trend. I have said before that I have friends from many parts of the world, of many colors, and this is not a race issue. This is nothing to do with the fact that the men are dark skinned, or muslim. This is to do with having disrespect for the law of the country they want to join.

I personally, despite what other people have posted, think that other cultures becoming part of Ireland is great. I welcome our new friends from Asia, Eastern Europe, South America, whatever. But, if a person speaks their mind that own laws should be obeyed, noone has the right to brand them a nazi or a racist. I dont care that they're Afghan. I do care that they pertain to have links to a bloodthirsty regime like the Taliban. That alone justifies our asylum process. We cannot take everything at face value. I say to these men, go through the process. We have a good process. We'll be polite and help you fill in your forms. If you get accepted to stay in this country, fair play, I'll be the first to send you a muffin basket. If its decided that you are not what you say you are, and are not in danger, then respect that decision and leave. Do not try to blackmail our country.

For those people who stand outside the cathedral commenting on "only protecting human rights" and "putting people first". Thats commendable,but do you only do this when it appears in your own back garden? If you really give a damn about human rights, then what have you done regarding serious abuse in countries like China, uzbekistan, Algeria, Saudi Arabia and so on and so on. Do you fight that cause too? Or is that a little bit too far away??. Taking a stance just because it suits you is not bloody on. And judging by the school kids on the news having a great old laugh outside the church, it does like a serious case of bandwagon jumping.

Some people I know ARE racist and dont like foreigners in this country, fact of life, it cant be changed. I always stress my opinions on this matter, and some of these people had almost come to see things the way I do. Now though, this issue has brought every racist in the country out thinkning that this just proves they are right. And that fuc*ing infuriates me. There are millions of people out there who need asylum, and all will be tarnished with the same brush as these men because of this protest.

Also, on another entirely unrelated note. I dont want to make this a religious thread, but someone said to me yesterday.
"I'm a protestant, and I want to go and pray in our largest sacred building. Unfortunately the doors are closed and I have no access" Do they disrepect our religion as well as our laws? If I want to make a point (not that I would ever do it in this manner) I would not dream of preventing any other persons from expressing their faith by essentially shutting down their holy places.

These men are showing dismissive attitudes to our country, our faith, our government and our laws. This cannot be entertained. If we back down it will be bad for the Irish people, and I truly believe it will open a gaping chasm between Irish people and non-nationals of all backgrounds. This cannot be allowed to happen.

tbh

Archeron wrote:

...

Good post.

woody

Giblet wrote:

juslookin, here is my problem with your post. Every second sentence is you being presumptious. I mean, where do you come up with that crap?

His Crap as you call it is fact not fable and was a very clear cut explanation...

Again the country is screwed and big time, in all our history the brits never did the same damage as these crimnals have

woody

Ag marbh wrote:

What did you do to serve the country?

Nine Years in the Army Pal and I have a right to gripe, more than most as I had the balls to get up off my tub and do the right thing

tbh

woody wrote:

Nine Years in the Army Pal and I have a right to gripe, more than most as I had the balls to get up off my tub and do the right thing

no I think he means, what did you do that you were not paid to do?

Ag marbh

woody wrote:

Nine Years in the Army Pal and I have a right to gripe, more than most as I had the balls to get up off my tub and do the right thing

Serving in an army is the right thing? Hah, It's the last occupation I would ever find myself in.

Ag marbh

tbh wrote:

no I think he means, what did you do that you were not paid to do?

That also

humanji

Ag marbh wrote:

Serving in an army is the right thing? Hah, It's the last occupation I would ever find myself in.

You mean fighting for what you believe in isn't the right thing? Have you just invalidated your entire argument?

Ag marbh

jomanji wrote:

You mean fighting for what you believe in isn't the right thing? Have you just invalidated your entire argument?

What is he fighting for?

Spending your career developing tactics on how to hurt others and learning how to fire guns etc isn't admiral.

humanji

The army is sent all around the world acting as peacekeepers in war zones. They are there to try and protect the innocent people caught in the middle. The Irish army isn't exactly like the US army. We don't invade other countries!

Heinrich

Ag marbh wrote:

What is he fighting for?

Spending your career developing tactics on how to hurt others and learning how to fire guns etc isn't admiral.

No more than shooting off your mouth on illegal lost causes!

The chap had the courage of his convictions and went and did something about it. Sniping and talking nonsense on an anonymous forum is not exactly having any courage.

These boards are for discussion. Laws are not made nor repealed here.

Ag marbh

billy the squid wrote:

Or you could just skip afghanistan and send them straight to guantanimo. That is where they are likely to end up whether they are guilty of crimes or not.

Unless you would be willing to sit in a concentration camp like that for several years without a trial then you are in no position to decide whether sending these people home or not is a good idea. It is not a good idea to send them home as their human rights are at risk, serious risk. The government are to blame for this because they have such a high rejection rate for asylum seekers from Afghanistan to begin with. We accept refugees where there are no wars going on, while at the same time we pander to the US by sending refugees back to countries where they are likely to be used as target practice or to fill up the cells of the US either in places like Abu Garrib or Guantanimo.

Good reply

Ag marbh

Heinrich wrote:

No more than shooting off your mouth on illegal lost causes!

The chap had the courage of his convictions and went and did something about it. Sniping and talking nonsense on an anonymous forum is not exactly having any courage.

These boards are for discussion. Laws are not made nor repealed here.

Still doesn't make serving in the army admirable.

Heinrich

Ag marbh wrote:

Still doesn't make serving in the army admirable.

No, in your opinion it doesnt...

As stated by another poster, the army is used for peacekeeping purposes, protecting perhaps the wives and children of those types who have invaded one of our religious establishments!

You might be better employed in writing the famous 100 word essay...

humanji

Ag marbh wrote:

Still doesn't make serving in the army admirable.

Yes it does. Stop being obtuse! At this point you seem to be just arguing for arguements sake.