Afghan hunger strike in St Patricks.

tbh · 19-05-2006 6:19pm

AngryAnderson wrote:

Well first things first. They're breaking the law, so arrest them and do what's required by the rule of the law. Then, again by the rule of the law, ship them out of the country if their asylum applications aren't granted and their appeals fail.

On one hand you seem to be defending them by saying they have the same legal rights as the rest of us under the system. On the other hand you're defending them by saying that the system isn't fair and they shouldn't be sent back if they're not granted asylum. Which is it, man??? Does the system work or not?? Or only when it satisfies your argument? Be consistent for God's sake!

The point about them having the same entitlements as the rest of us - I don't believe i used the term legal rights - was because of the argument that they are clogging up public resources that so-called legal irish people pay for. But they are entitled to those resources, because that's what the law says. You can't argue for the law to be enforced on one hand, and not on the other. And don't forget - I'm not the one making the case for the system. You are either entitled to medical treatment, or you are not. These people are. As i said, if that then impacts the system to the detriment of others, the system doesn't work as well as we all deserve it to - no fault of these guys.

Please try to understand my argument. I have never said on this thread that they shouldn't be sent back if their application fails. Laws are made by representitives of the majority, and if I want to live in a democracy - which I do, then I have to subject myself to those rules. I understand that I'm in the minority. It doesn't stop me from pointing out that I think the rules could be changed. I'm more Michael D. than Michael Mc, and I'm proud of that. I think Ireland has a debt to the world, and we should pay it back. I have no problem debating the issues with you - I'm enjoying it immensely to be perfectly honest - but I'm not going to defend a position I've never taken.

According to the Last Word, and the aforementioned Michael D, their gripe is not that they have been or will be refused asylum, it's that the process was not fair to them. I suppose it boils down to the same thing in the end, but I for one would like to hear their side before calling for them to be sent home. How desperate would you have to be to do something like this. Btw - I'm off on my hols tomorrow, so I'll most likely not be around to annoy ye for the next week.. I've enjoyed debating this issue, as I've said, and hopefully it'll all end with no lives lost, and we can all get back to discussing Big Brother.

juslookin · 19-05-2006 6:24pm

In fact, let "them" jump off the organ.

It won't be "them".

A scenario: one poor impressionable, slow learning 16 or 17 year old sucker to be first in the queue. Maybe yer man with the white stick who was ""forced"" to work for the Taliban, might probably have quiet word with him first about Allah giving him the courage, and that he is right behind him in the queue, ready to jump next, in fact they all are, just you go first to let the Irish people see we are serious ...

"Afghans" ?

Nope, 41 individuals, with indiviual personalities and individual histories and individual agendas, who happen to claim to be Afghan (but who could be Pakistanis for all you know). What proof does anyone have that they are who they say they are ?

Of course the paternalistic atttitude of the "anti racists" is to treat them en masse. Which is where they don't see the irony.

Wertz · 19-05-2006 6:26pm

mike65 wrote:

The latest says they are now willing to throw themselves off the organ.

Mike.

Maybe concerned members of RAR could stand beneath and break their fall?

Looks like all those blankets might come in handy for covering up bodies huh...

Gegerty · 19-05-2006 6:27pm

thebaz wrote:

Thats a bit of an exageration, they are not all going to be "murdered in public" - in fact they are murdering themselves in public here in Dublin instead . A stand needs to be taken on immigration, and just cause you are not happy with outcome does not mean you go on hunger strike to highlight your case . If murder is so widespread in Afghanistan - should we just just let in 2 million Afghans here out of good will.

So what if they're going on hunger strike. I really couldn't give a sh!t. People go on hunger strike all the time, its a good way of getting your case heard. These people have nothing to lose, are uneducated and brought up in a violent society. They're still entitled to a fair trial. As for 2 million Afghans, well if 2 million people seek asylum and 2 million people are entitled to Asylum then yes they should all be let in. f*ck all the ignorant, narrow minded, racist, Celtic loving, muck raking Irish people out to make room for them.

tbh · 19-05-2006 6:28pm

juslookin wrote:

In fact, let "them" jump off the organ.

It won't be "them".

I'd put money that one poor impressionable, slow learning 16 or 17 year old sucker will be first in the queue. Course yer man with the white stick who was ""forced"" to work for the Taliban, will probably have quiet word with him first about Allah giving him the courage, and that he is right behind him in the queue, ready to jump next ...

you have no idea whatsoever about any of circumstances of the people in that church. Saying something like that shows your fear and ignorance IMO.

tbh · 19-05-2006 6:31pm

ChityWest wrote:

Not the case we are talking about is it ?

The people threatening self harm are trying to dictate how Irelands immigration/asylum processes should operate.

They are trying to dictate their demands and expect them put in place at the threat of self harm.

when you were talking about agitators, I thought you meant me

Hagar · 19-05-2006 6:31pm

While those 30 Gardaí are standing outside doing SFA there is probabaly a mini crime wave going on because the skangers know the Gardaí are tied up.

tbh · 19-05-2006 6:33pm

Heinrich wrote:

Why do you bother? If he said to PM you and then complains then he is being foolish. Let the other two PM one another to their hearts desire. The time the spend doing that will be less time trolling here!

Why are you accusing me of trolling heinrich? I've explained my position over and over, and I've accepted that I'm in the minority, and I know I'm not going to change your minds. Were you just trying to be smart?

hellboy99 · 19-05-2006 6:33pm

Stand-off at St. Patrick’s Cathedral continues
19/05/2006 - 17:49:51

A stand-off between the Gardaí and 40 afghan hunger strikers is continuing in St Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin.

The Church of Ireland has asked the asylum seekers to leave the premises, however there are no signs that they intend to call off their six-day protest.

At least 15 gardaí are still involved in a stand-off with the hunger strikers inside St. Patrick’s Cathedral.

This morning the HSE obtained a court order making all of the seven minorswards of court and it these individuals the garda operation is centring on.

They are holding fast their positions in the Cathedral, however the spokesperson for the Church, Janet Maxwell says they want the men to leave.

Spokesperson for Residents Against Racism, Rosanna Flynn spent a number of hours with the Hunger Strikers this afternoon, she says many of them are ready to die.

If they die they die and it's their own doing.
The Church have asked them to leave and they won't, they say that they are in the house of God and no one but God can ask them to leave ( here we go :rolleyes: ) . They might of had better luck if they tried a Mosque. They just won't do anything they are told, everything has to be their way or no way.
And why is Rosanna Flynn from the Residents Against Racism involved ??? who has been racist towards them ?

Let them kill themselves, Ireland should not be bullied into giving them what they want.

edanto · 19-05-2006 6:40pm

Their point that the system isn't fair seems true. An article in the paper recently compared the proportion of applications approved by different examiners and found huge differences.

On newstalk this evening a guy was saying that two identical applications could have different outcomes - one approved and one denied. That seems unfair to me. For such an important issue, the system should be consistent.

There was another important point made on the Newstalk show - that there wasn't a threat of this group being sent back to Afghanistan. So, why protest so much? Is our system so unfair?

juslookin · 19-05-2006 6:42pm

tbh wrote:

you have no idea whatsoever about any of circumstances of the people in that church. Saying something like that shows your fear and ignorance IMO.

You see that's the thing ....

YOU TOO have no idea whatsoever about any of the circumstances of the people in that church .... RAR may very well have no idea whatsoever about any of the circumstances of the people in that church

If the 41 of them are "The Afghans", then of course they are all from a dangerous country facing persecution and certain death. The couple of fellas at the front can speak for them, and the rest of them will nod in agreement.

But if the 41 of them are individuals, with individual circumstances, it's quite another prospect.

I have no fear and ignorance. Let's just have the honesty and truth. Something our Afghan freinds were offered the opportunity to give on RTE but apparently declined.

tbh · 19-05-2006 6:44pm

juslookin wrote:

You see that's the thing ....

YOU TOO have no idea whatsoever about any of the circumstances of the people in that church .... .

no, but I'm not the one accusing one of them of coercing the others into killing themselves.
The vast majority of what I've posted in this thread has been opinion, but I've never claimed it was fact. Neither of us know the story behind these guys. The difference between us is, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I know you probably perceive that as a weakness in me, but thats ok, because it's something I'm proud of.

Hagar · 19-05-2006 6:52pm

I hope they don't damage that organ fucking around killing themselves.
It's part of our heritage and would cost a fair few yoyos to get fixed.

http://homepages.iol.ie/~rod/organ/specs/dublin/st-patrick.html

Dave! · 19-05-2006 6:56pm

what's your bloody job, Hagar?

Hagar · 19-05-2006 7:05pm

I'm self employed, anyway it's 8:00pm here so I'm on my own time.
In my leisure time I enjoy travel and meeting people. I would love to work with children or old people and I make all my own clothes.:D

/edit why do you ask?

juslookin · 19-05-2006 7:05pm

tbh wrote:

no, but I'm not the one accusing one of them of coercing the others into killing themselves.
The vast majority of what I've posted in this thread has been opinion, but I've never claimed it was fact. Neither of us know the story behind these guys. The difference between us is, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I know you probably perceive that as a weakness in me, but thats ok, because it's something I'm proud of.

No, and of course none of them were co-erced into joining this escapade ?

We are getting somewhere here.

But don't give them the benefit of the doubt.

Give them fair, equal and individual treatment and consideration.

If we had started with the following supposition, there would likely be no argument.

41 men, who may or may not have a right to be in the Irish Republic, who CLAIM to be Afghan national, and who CLAIM to be in danger of "persecution" and "certain death", CLAIM to be on hunger strike in St Patrick's Cathedral Dublin.

hellboy99 · 19-05-2006 7:09pm

they don't want to go back to their own country for fear of being killed, yet they are willing to kill themselves, go figure.

the minister has explained to them his position and how things work here when it comes to asylum but they just won't listen and obviously couldn't give a toss about Irish laws.

I would just like to say to everyone ( especially the RAR ) that wants them to be granted asylum on the bases of their actions, you need to get off your high horses for a moment and assess things.
they tried to get asylum and failed, they went through the proper system that has been put in place by our government for asylum and now they just turn round and show a total disregard of those laws, the government and the Irish people.

as I have said before, why is the RAR involved ? no one has been racist towards them, have they too forgotten about our laws. and before any members of the RAR or anyone else say I'm racist I would like to point out that I'm not.

if you want to go off and show your support for them and help them to gain entry to our country, remember that you too are making a mockery of our asylum system.

tbh · 19-05-2006 7:13pm

juslookin wrote:

But don't give them the benefit of the doubt.

Give them fair, equal and individual treatment and consideration.

Well see I kind of see a correlation between the two. I'd rather hear their story before I make my mind up. Now, maybe they are chancers. But maybe you'll forgive me if I don't trust the systems which gave us planning corruption, organ retention scandals, public project over-runs, illegal nursing home payments, the m50 toll, etc etc etc. Thats really the nub of my argument right there - even if you don't agree with me, I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

juslookin wrote:

No, and of course none of them were co-erced into joining this escapade ?

I have no idea. Do you? Could someone co-erce you into doing something like this?

tbh · 19-05-2006 7:15pm

hellboy99 wrote:

they don't want to go back to their own country for fear of being killed, yet they are willing to kill themselves, go figure.

lets just say they are telling the truth. Would you rather commit suicide, or get murdered at a time, and in a fashion you have no control over? all things being equal, like.

darkman2 · 19-05-2006 7:16pm

C of I ministers are taking legal action to get them off the strike.

A question: How the fu/ck can you get someone off hunger strike with legal action. Are these ppl stupid or what. The Guards should just storm the building and round them up, This is a joke:mad:

Heinrich · 19-05-2006 7:17pm

tbh wrote:

Why are you accusing me of trolling heinrich? I've explained my position over and over, and I've accepted that I'm in the minority, and I know I'm not going to change your minds. Were you just trying to be smart?

If the cap fits, wear it!!!

If you read the foregoing posts you would have noticed that two posters were arguing about PMing. You were probably not involved in that argument...;)

Hagar · 19-05-2006 7:18pm

I just saw their picture on Sky News with the red ropes around their necks.
What sort of knots are they? FFS you couldn't hang anything with knots like that.

I hope they didn't cut that rope of anything important. Bloody vandals.
Criminal damage that is, why don't the Gardaí arrest them for that?

tbh · 19-05-2006 7:20pm

Heinrich wrote:

If the cap fits, wear it!!!

If you read the foregoing posts you would have noticed that two posters were arguing about PMing. You were probably not involved in that argument...;)

explain to me what you understand by the term 'trolling'. I don't have arguments, I have discussions. If ag marbh and kiera are arguing, thats none of my business.

darkman2 · 19-05-2006 7:21pm

Hagar wrote:

I just saw their picture on Sky News with the red ropes around their necks.
What sort of knots are they? FFS you couldn't hang anything with knots like that.

I hope they didn't cut that rope of anything important. Bloody vandals.
Criminal damage that is, why don't the Gardaí arrest them for that?

The beeb now have it as a top story, talking about the organ loft. FFS it would be funny if it wasnt so stupid:mad:

Heinrich · 19-05-2006 7:22pm

Hagar wrote:

I just saw their picture on Sky News with the red ropes around their necks.
What sort of knots are they? FFS you couldn't hang anything with knots like that.

I hope they didn't cut that rope of anything important. Bloody vandals.
Criminal damage that is, why don't the Gardaí arrest them for that?

Bats in the belfry comes to mind...

Heinrich · 19-05-2006 7:23pm

tbh wrote:

explain to me what you understand by the term 'trolling'. I don't have arguments, I have discussions. If ag marbh and kiera are arguing, thats none of my business.

precisely.
Point final

tbh · 19-05-2006 7:25pm

Heinrich wrote:

precisely.
Point final

off topic pm sent.

Hagar · 19-05-2006 7:27pm

Heinrich wrote:

Bats in the belfry comes to mind...

Them, me or both? Probably both TBH.;)

hellboy99 · 19-05-2006 7:31pm

tbh wrote:

lets just say they are telling the truth. Would you rather commit suicide, or get murdered at a time, and in a fashion you have no control over? all things being equal, like.

i know where your coming from but you don't use suicide as a form of threat just in order to get what you want.

rkeane · 19-05-2006 7:44pm

Mc Dowell is a legend - he's put his foot down and he's going to keep it that way. These Afghan's are not going to win this battle - if a few die during the operation to remove them - it would be very sad - but also their own fault.

These protesters are now pitted against the policy of government, the wishes of the Church of Ireland and the opinion of the UN, their position is untenable - this show must be brought to an end.

Afghan hunger strike in St Patricks.

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