Any comments on yesterday's Prime Time?

Heinrich

I was amazed about how glib Mrs Harney can be in the light of the preceeding program last night! Is she for real? People are lying in appaling third world conditions in our Celtic Tiger hospitals and all we get are some staged statistics.

Am I alone in thinking that a speedy General Election would be in order?






From the Indo

Conditions in hospitals are like Third World, says expert

CONDITIONS in Irish hospitals were last night said to be akin to those in the Third World.

The sight of patients in the country's A&E departments receiving treatment such as blood transfusions and oxygen therapy on chairs in overcrowded units prompted the comments by Adrian Fogarty, an A&E consultant at the Royal Free Hospital in London.

silverharp

The civil service is rotten to the core, any country that can't process learner drivers hasn't a hope at running a 21st Century health system, a couple of people sitting in a pub could come up with a better health strategy than this shower

mickcarroll10

Heinrich wrote:

I was amazed about how glib Mrs Harney can be in the light of the preceeding program last night! Is she for real? People are lying in appaling third world conditions in our Celtic Tiger hospitals and all we get are some staged statistics.

Am I alone in thinking that a speedy General Election would be in order?






From the Indo

Conditions in hospitals are like Third World, says expert

CONDITIONS in Irish hospitals were last night said to be akin to those in the Third World.

The sight of patients in the country's A&E departments receiving treatment such as blood transfusions and oxygen therapy on chairs in overcrowded units prompted the comments by Adrian Fogarty, an A&E consultant at the Royal Free Hospital in London.

The problem is a disgrace,however it is a small problem in the context of the activities of the health service.

A & E problems are found in a small number of Hospitals.

I was given hope by the attitudes displayed by the partners sitting at the table on Q & A,maybe they will leave their bunkers and work together to make changes.

Unpossible

The civil service is rotten to the core, any country that can't process learner drivers hasn't a hope at running a 21st Century health system, a couple of people sitting in a pub could come up with a better health strategy than this shower

People will complain and moan about nothing being done, then they will re-electe FF when FF go around promising to change.
The sad thing is that if somebody decided to shake up the whole system and reform it there would be uproar from the workers in the civil service.

Heinrich

mickcarroll10 wrote:

The problem is a disgrace,however it is a small problem in the context of the activities of the health service.

A & E problems are found in a small number of Hospitals.

I was given hope by the attitudes displayed by the partners sitting at the table on Q & A,maybe they will leave their bunkers and work together to make changes.

When you say a small number of hospitals could you elaborate? Hospitals as big as Beaumont would constitute a grave problem as far as the A&E scandal is concerned.

We are being handed titbits totally out of context by people such as Mrs Harney and Co. !

As for your referring the scandal as "problems" that would be far too mild.

MrJones

harney and co just keep on blaming the consultants and want them to commit whollly to the public system on a shift round the clock basis.
the consultants are part of the problem and they need be contracted so they work shift hours in stead of 9-5 mon to fri., but consultants should be allowed to do private work in their free time. they should not be owned by the health system which appears to be the attitute of harney.
harney and drumm are doing f all apart from talking about process, and blaming consultants,
let see some action

Heinrich wrote:

When you say a small number of hospitals could you elaborate? Hospitals as big as Beaumont would constitute a grave problem as far as the A&E scandal is concerned.

We are being handed titbits totally out of context by people such as Mrs Harney and Co. !

As for your referring the scandal as "problems" that would be far too mild.

jd

A few things

1. People are in acute hospital beds when they should be in nursing homes.

2. Patients are often ready to be discharged, but can't be until the consultant gives the say-so. This is a problem...

3. GP out of hours coverage. Practices should partake in the caredoc system

4. People presenting to A&E rather than going to a GP.

I had to use the Caredoc clinic in Wexford a few weeks ago. Anyone who presents themselves in A&E when such a system is in place should be charged 150 Euro. That should include medical card holders.

Heinrich

MrJones wrote:

harney and co just keep on blaming the consultants and want them to commit whollly to the public system on a shift round the clock basis.
the consultants are part of the problem and they need be contracted so they work shift hours in stead of 9-5 mon to fri., but consultants should be allowed to do private work in their free time. they should not be owned by the health system which appears to be the attitute of harney.
harney and drumm are doing f all apart from talking about process, and blaming consultants,
let see some action

It is not true that the consultants finish at five P.M. but rather they are contracted on that time frame as pointed out lat night. They do actually work longer than that! However, if there was to be a 24/7 coverage then we would need a whole lot more consultants then we have at present.

The more senior the person becomes, the more he/she shifts the blame downwards. The big chiefs Harney and Drumm are the heads of this mess. So long as they spew the rhetoric that is misunderstood or gullibly swallowed then all is in order.

We must not lose sight of the misery of those victims/patients who are lying in these appaling conditions. The powers that be are powerless. :mad:

Heinrich

More fanciful rhetoric...

jd wrote:

A few things

1. People are in acute hospital beds when they should be in nursing homes.
Why is this?
2. Patients are often ready to be discharged, but can't be until the consultant gives the say-so. This is a problem...
The patient cannot be put out of hospital against his will
3. GP out of hours coverage. Practices should partake in the caredoc system
There may not be enough doctors as was pointed out last night
4. People presenting to A&E rather than going to a GP.
If the patient is seriously ill it is quicker to go directly
I had to use the Caredoc clinic in Wexford a few weeks ago. Anyone who presents themselves in A&E when such a system is in place should be charged 150 Euro. That should include medical card holders.
€150 would be good value if the service was efficient but bad value if one develops pneumonia in the process!

oscarBravo

jd wrote:

2. Patients are often ready to be discharged, but can't be until the consultant gives the say-so. This is a problem...

I've had personal experience of this, albeit nearly twenty years ago. I spent five days in hospital with septicaemia - after three days (at most), I was entirely fit to be discharged, but wasn't allowed to leave until the consultant gave me a 30-second checkup.

jd wrote:

I had to use the Caredoc clinic in Wexford a few weeks ago. Anyone who presents themselves in A&E when such a system is in place should be charged 150 Euro. That should include medical card holders.

I had the same experience with WestDoc here in Ballina. If I'd broken my neck or something, I would have gone to A&E. I had abdominal pains, so I went to WestDoc.

oscarBravo

Heinrich wrote:

More fanciful rhetoric...

Could you please quote properly? The way you do it makes replying difficult.

Heinrich wrote:

If the patient is seriously ill it is quicker to go directly

...and if the patient is ill, but not the victim of an accident or emergency, it doesn't make sense to go to an A&E department.

Heinrich

oscarBravo wrote:

Could you please quote properly? The way you do it makes replying difficult. ...and if the patient is ill, but not the victim of an accident or emergency, it doesn't make sense to go to an A&E department.

Where would he go if he lived in Dublin 9?

oscarBravo

Heinrich wrote:

Where would he go if he lived in Dublin 9?

I don't know, I'm not familiar with the medical facilities available in Dublin 9.

Assuming your point is that there are no out-of-hours medical facilities available other than an A&E department, would you accept that that's something that ought to be addressed?

lostexpectation

I love the headline the other day from that report there is no crisis in the A&E, or lack of funding (in the A&E), cos the problem is the lack of GPs?

oh wells that ok then there no problems at all in the A&E???

or maybe there is problem in the A&E because of the lack of all-hours GP services hmm maybe that should be the headline maybe there is a crisis in the A&E???

the civil service is ****e ... privitase... people are blocking beds they shoud go to private old folks homes?

Heinrich

oscarBravo wrote:

I don't know, I'm not familiar with the medical facilities available in Dublin 9.

Assuming your point is that there are no out-of-hours medical facilities available other than an A&E department, would you accept that that's something that ought to be addressed?

Indeed I would. I live in Dublin 9 and that is Beaumont. I could walk to the hospital quicker than find an out of hours medical facility! It is not up to the seriously ill to cure themselves and the situation in the Dublin hospitals is critical!!!

There is a greater concentration of the population in big cities like Dublin and Cork and the needs and problems differ from the more regional facilities.

That being said, there is a grave problem and the senior managers, Mme Harney and Co. are the ones who are in the best position to do something about the situation. So far , all we see, or rather hear are empty promises.

bk

I didn't see the earlier documentary, but what I saw in Q&A was that the problems are well understood, that it isn't a financing problem, rather a management problem, that the solutions are well understood, but that the people who need to make changes in order to rectify the situation aren't willing to do so (or just want more money).

I found one point that was overlooked was that five years ago we were all complaining about massive (5 year) waiting lists for operations. This has now been fixed (down to just 2 - 5 months), but no one wants to recognise and give praise for that, instead the focus has changed to the awful situation in A&E.

However it is important to point out that great improvements have been made in the health sector.

Unfortunately the problems seem to be process and people problems and no amount of money will simply magically fix that, only time and atrong leadership will fix the problem.

Heinrich

The problem is a shortage of beds!!!

Or so we are led to believe.

bk

Heinrich wrote:

The problem is a shortage of beds!!!

Or so we are led to believe.

Yes there is a shortage of beds.

However it seems that:

1) Many beds are taken up by elderly people who should be in normal elderly care facilities, not in A&E.

2) At many hospitals, people stay much longer then needed.

An example was given of two hospitals of roughly equal size, the average stay at one was 4 and a half days, the other was 7 days. Why the difference?

Fixing these management problems would free up many beds, without the need of spending lots of money on more beds (which involves more nurses and doctors also).

It seems our health system needs to get more efficient before we continue throwing money at it.

Heinrich

bk wrote:

It seems our health system needs to get more efficient before we continue throwing money at it.

A lot of money was flung at a woeful computer system which does not work properly. The A&E crisis overshadows this particular problem so that's in order.

oscarBravo

Heinrich wrote:

I could walk to the hospital quicker than find an out of hours medical facility!

If you could walk to the hospital, you probably don't need A&E.

Referring back to my situation a few weeks ago: if I had been sitting outside Castlebar hospital at the time, I would still have contacted WestDoc, precisely because I hadn't been in an accident and didn't feel my condition (although very painful) was an emergency.

Yes, the shortage of beds is a problem. But it's just one part of the overall problem, and all the contributing problems need to be addressed.

Heinrich

oscarBravo wrote:

If you could walk to the hospital, you probably don't need A&E.

That was a figure of speech. However...

lostexpectation

bk wrote:

I found one point that was overlooked was that five years ago we were all complaining about massive (5 year) waiting lists for operations. This has now been fixed (down to just 2 - 5 months), but no one wants to recognise and give praise for that, instead the focus has changed to the awful situation in A&E.

However it is important to point out that great improvements have been made in the health sector.

Unfortunately the problems seem to be process and people problems and no amount of money will simply magically fix that, only time and atrong leadership will fix the problem.

good point how was the problem with waiting lists fixed again?

The_Minister

Heinrich wrote:

I was amazed about how glib Mrs Harney can be in the light of the preceeding program last night! Is she for real? People are lying in appaling third world conditions in our Celtic Tiger hospitals and all we get are some staged statistics.

From the Indo

Conditions in hospitals are like Third World, says expert

CONDITIONS in Irish hospitals were last night said to be akin to those in the Third World.

Sigh! For the last time those 3rd world comments are hyperbole! Most third world health systems can't even afford trolleys! Its not the best but quit exagerrating.

New_Departure06

The problem isn't Harney's fault. I blame the consultants because of their 9 to 5 contracts. As a result there are not enough of them around when the drunks clog up A+E. Harney is trying to force consultants to sign a public-only contract but they are blocking it. They are the biggest obstacle as far as I am concerned.

I would not trust FG to resolve it. There was a FG candidate in the audience who is a consultant, and the former director of elections of FG, Finbar Fitzpatrick, is a consultant. Evidently many of the consultants consider FG to be a party conducive to their interests?

bonkey

bk wrote:

An example was given of two hospitals of roughly equal size, the average stay at one was 4 and a half days, the other was 7 days. Why the difference?

Without looking at details such as hospital-size, useage rates, and what the actual illnesses were, I think any answer would be purely speculative. There are any number of possibilities which could explain such a difference, not all of which are sinister.

This is not to say that there isn't a problem to be dealt with.

jc

Red Alert

Fianna Fail has its fair share of medical doctors like the disgraced Dr. McDaid.

Fianna Fail/PD's have not bothered to deal with the health problem. Mary Harney's answer is to boot the bed blockers into private nursing homes. Finding private nursing spaces is a nuisance and contributes to the bed blocking problem, and their occupancy provides a fine kick-back for those private nursing home operators.

With the increase in local-anasthesia and one-day stays, convalescent care needs to be put on a firm footing and not relegated to an afterthought. Procedures need to be put in place from the top down so that people are discharged on schedule and are guarnteed to have a suitable place to go.