Racism and After Hours

Time Magazine

The Corinthian wrote:

And you were accusing him of resorting to soundbites? Ironic.

No, it's not ironic, petal.

He suggested Clown Bag's approach was fascist. There are two primary arguments for open border(-esque) immigration; prudent economics or, essentially, compassion.

Now would you like to argue that the economic policies (those that were tried in the real world) of fascism are prudent? Or that it holds great compassion for other races?

As I said, the statement that Clown Bag's argument was fascist would really struggle to find a political theory further from the truth.

That post was noticeably embittered. Are you alright there?

The Corinthian

Angry Banana wrote:

He suggested Clown Bag's approach was fascist. There are two primary arguments for open border(-esque) immigration; prudent economics or, essentially, compassion.

Now would you like to argue that the economic policies (those that were tried in the real world) of fascism are prudent? Or that it holds great compassion for other races?

Firstly, I would ask you if you actually have a breeze of a notion as to what the economics of Fascism were in any of the countries where it has been practiced as a government type.

Secondly, you should demonstrate how Fascism is somehow unique in its apparent lack of economic prudence or ‘racial compassion’?

You might cite how, in contrast, Socialism has been such a resounding economic success in the Soviet Union, Albania and North Korea or how racial segregation laws in (nice democratic) British colonies were more severe than in (evil Fascist) Italian colonies in the 1920’s and 30’s. Indeed, you might explain to us how the inherent racism in Fascism in Spain or Chile differed all that greatly from that in South Africa, Rhodesia, or even Mississippi in the 20th century.

Otherwise you can spare us your sanctimonious clichés, especially when you accuse others of doing the same.

That post was noticeably embittered. Are you alright there?

No, it’s just I don’t like hypocrites.

Boston

Angry Banana wrote:

Now would you like to argue that the economic policies (those that were tried in the real world) of fascism are prudent? Or that it holds great compassion for other races?

Some of the largest and most successfull companies in the world today, where set up under facism.

Amp: thats just inviting abuse.

Hobbes

Hagar wrote:

They must have passed through at least one other EU country to get to Ireland, So are they awaiting the results of an application made in another EU state or are they doing the rounds making application in Ireland having been refused elsewhere?

They can only make one application in the EU and it has to be the first country they enter.

As for have to pass through another EU. Not true. We do have some flights that originate outside the EU. But also they can come in via Boats which won't stop in other EU ports.

I mean if acceptance in any EU state gives them the right to stay in any EU state, surely rejection by any state denies them the right to stay in any EU state?

If they have refugee status they are allowed stay anywhere in the EU (basically like an EU citizen), while waiting for refugee status they can't leave the country in question. Being denied Asylum in one EU country doesn't mean they can go any apply in another. Some probably try though.

amp

LiouVille wrote:

Amp: thats just inviting abuse.

Well I get it from you even when I don't, so forgive me if I get bored of your trolls. Usually I don't even bother replying to your nonsense, not sure why I am now.

Boston

amp wrote:

Well I get it from you even when I don't, so forgive me if I get bored of your trolls. Usually I don't even bother replying to your nonsense, not sure why I am now.

Your lonely, In need of someone to talk to, and this abusive relationship has been the only solid consistant thing in your life for the past few years. Lovers have come and gone, friends have gone, Jobs have disappeared, but through it all, I've been here for you, abusing the **** out of you. Treating you like a punk.

I think I love you adam. Not in a physical or sexual way, more in a red headed step child way.

Stark

Get a room you two.

Boston

Ok, but I'm on top

Doctor Fell

I agree with the OP in that there is definitely racist posting going on in After Hours. It really annoys me tbh, and first off I want to apologise to Degsie for calling him a d*ckhead in the Afghan thread, but the amount of nonsense being posted about that case really got to me.
I don't agree with the people saying that the racist tag is being bandied about without just cause. The fact is people in AH (and as OP said it happens in a lot of posts) do express racist views. Racist as in views which are prejudiced by the race of the people thay are talking about. There's nothing shocking about this I suppose, since imo a lot of Irish people are genuinely racist or xenophobic. I think people who spout this tripe need to be answered and corrected. You can't stay silent in the face of bigotry or hatred. I'm not trying to be a "bleeding heart" as some people said. Of course everyone has different opinions, and you should shouldn't talk about "entitlement" when it comes to opinions. People have certain opinions, being entitled to them isn't an issue. But what is an issue is whether these opinions should be tolerated.
For example, if it was my opinion that rape and murder should be legal and common practice, and I was posting this sort of nonsense and sticking up for my beliefs, would it be tolerated? After all am I not entitled to my opinion?
So it seems to me you have to draw the line somewhere. I agree these sort of threads should of course continue, but I think the sort of "all Nigerians are spongers etc" rant shouldn't be allowed.

Hagar

How do you correctly define racism anyway?

To me it is a set of preconcieved notions about a person based on anecdotal or actual knowledge of other persons from the same background. These may be either positive or negative, totally accurate or wildly inaccurate.

Putting racism in perspective, there is a view of the Irish in some parts of the world that we are nation of dirty, lazy drunks who start fights at the drop of a hat. In other parts we are viewed as a warm, welcoming and kind-hearted people with a culture rich in song and story. Both views are racist, both views are probably equally well deserved.

Can we honestly deny our darker side? Would it be entirely wrong if it was pointed out from time to time?

By the same token there are perceptions about other races out there, both positive and negative. Is it likely that the negative perceptions are totally unfounded? Should we only mention the postive aspects of other races? Would that be balanced? Would it be wise?

Personally I wouldn't like to get into racist name calling but it would be prudent to take what we hear about a people in general, both good and bad, into account when we are dealing with them.

I know there are many kind, loving and honest people in Nigeria but which ones? The only ones I hear about are fraudsters, scammers and thieves. Until I know how to tell them apart for certain I am going to err on the side of caution in my dealings with anyone from that country. Likewise with some Eastern European nations and some Middle Eastern nations so it's not a mattter of skin colour, it's a matter of prudence. Does that make me a racist?

I wish people would stop playing the racist card at every opportunity, it just clouds the real issues at hand.

ChityWest

Hagar wrote:

I wish people would stop playing the racist card at every opportunity, it just clouds the real issues at hand.

Couldnt agree more - theres a strong risk here of allowing the uber pc element to label anyone who disagrees with them as a 'racist'. Any why not ? Its easier to call somone a racist (or to imply it) than it is to argue in favour of your actual stance - or to logically refute the assertions you disagree with.

All that does (slinging the racist drivel around) is stifle debate - and that, imo serves to re-inforce the 'hard done by' nonsense that helps fuel racism to begin with. (Nearly went into a star-wars type Fear leads to hate type speech there - Phew!)

Seriously if you start allowing people to label racist left and right then this place will start to look a bit more like indymedia and we can all live without that.

Solidarity. Comrade.

amp

LiouVille wrote:

Your lonely, In need of someone to talk to, and this abusive relationship has been the only solid consistant thing in your life for the past few years. Lovers have come and gone, friends have gone, Jobs have disappeared, but through it all, I've been here for you, abusing the **** out of you. Treating you like a punk.

I think I love you adam. Not in a physical or sexual way, more in a red headed step child way.

Well done, the first step to conquering a problem is to admit you have one. The next step is to try and deal with that problem. I'll try and help by ignoring you more completely from now on and I suggest you stop reading my blog.

If you do attempt to abuse the "****" out of me again then I'll just simply report the post and let somebody else deal with it because I just can't be arsed helping you look stupid anymore. It's just too easy.

Karl Hungus

Doctor Fell wrote:

I think people who spout this tripe need to be answered and corrected.

And you don't think that's part of the problem? People aren't answering, or debating, they're simply stating "That's racist" as if it invalidates the oppossing arguement.

Doctor Fell wrote:

You can't stay silent in the face of bigotry or hatred.

The door swings both ways. How do you know the people you're calling "Racists" aren't the ones who refuse to stay silent in the face of bigotry or hatred?

I'll give you an example. Someone had mentioned that they had been spat on by an eastern european beggar when they tried to move of said beggar's way. I believe them, because I personally have had similar experiences with such beggars before, it's happened a few times when I'd walk through town, some beggar would stand out infront of me with their hands out, or sometimes a bucket, and say "Please" untill I move to avoid them, at such time they might let fly with a mouthfull of incomprehensible abuse, and while I've never actually been spat on, one beggar certainly did spit on the ground infront of me before the abuse came. No two ways of looking at it, that's one incredibly ignorant way to treat someone else.

So, why exactly should someone stay silent in the face of such ignorance and hate? Hmm?

Time Magazine

The Corinthian wrote:

Firstly, I would ask you if you actually have a breeze of a notion as to what the economics of Fascism were in any of the countries where it has been practiced as a government type.

I will answer it affirmatively. You're aware of autarchy, and its inherent limitations and restrictions, one would hope.

Secondly, you should demonstrate how Fascism is somehow unique in its apparent lack of economic prudence or ‘racial compassion’?

Your logic is flawed. One need not prove uniqueness to prove repulsion. Fascism is certainly not alone in its lack of economic prudence or racial compassion; but that does not debase my argument one bit.

You might cite how, in contrast, Socialism has been such a resounding economic success in the Soviet Union, Albania and North Korea

I said nothing of socialism; you're either trying to form a future equivocal tangent or ignoring my point.

or how racial segregation laws in (nice democratic) British colonies were more severe than in (evil Fascist) Italian colonies in the 1920’s and 30’s. Indeed, you might explain to us how the inherent racism in Fascism in Spain or Chile differed all that greatly from that in South Africa, Rhodesia, or even Mississippi in the 20th century.

Indeed I might, but yet again it's absolutely inconsequential.

Otherwise you can spare us your sanctimonious clichés, especially when you accuse others of doing the same.

The post was well-received; Stark nesf, tbh, sebthebum and Crash all complimented me on it. Would you rather I spare them of it, as well? Who, exactly, is 'us'?

[resentfully]sanctimonious clichés

As you said yourself, ironic.

No, it’s just I don’t like hypocrites.

How about gainsayers and demurers, then?

Karl Hungus

Oh, and while I'm at it. Amp, Louville? Can you keep the lover's tiff to yourselves?

Hell, I even thought that Amp might have a little more sense than to even dignify Louville's comments.

Doctor Fell

Hagar wrote:

How do you correctly define racism anyway?

I am going to err on the side of caution in my dealings with anyone from that country. Likewise with some Eastern European nations and some Middle Eastern nations

I wish people would stop playing the racist card at every opportunity, it just clouds the real issues at hand.

Merriam Webster defines racism as
"1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination"

I think you have just shown the dangers of racist language. U have now let hearsay about Nigerians determine the way in which you now treat and regard people of that race! And what do you mean about "some Eastern European nations"??? What are you trying to insinuate? Have you some more BS to spread about them, or some bullcrap story to illustrate how some devious race is not to be trusted?? I really dislike people like you with your racially prejudiced views of other people. I can't believe you can fall for all these scare stories. So yeah, your views of Nigerians by your own admission are racist.

So I'm not playing the racsit card unfounded. You are racist, you said it yourself. Nothing "uber PC" about it, its just a fact.
Again I would say, what is the problem with calling someone a racist, if they clearly are? It's not "slinging the racist drivel around", it's reality.

ChityWest

Doctor Fell wrote:

So I'm not playing the racsit card unfounded. You are racist, you said it yourself. Nothing "uber PC" about it, its just a fact.
Again I would say, what is the problem with calling someone a racist, if they clearly are? It's not "slinging the racist drivel around", it's reality.

Yep you are. Your original accusation of racism was made on the basis that to post information describing one of the afghans as a rapist/murderer was racism. You have now included subsequent comments made in the thread to justify your original point which had actually zero basis in fact.

Terry

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

oh god whats boards coming to, you leave AH to get away from the Righetous Left and the Dangerous Right that have drowned out the centre standing majority on the issue, and you turn around and find it in the feedback thread, what is going on here, this desire to control what everyone posts is like a flippin cancer spreading slowly through the boards, "you like spongers" " no,you're a racist".
jesus lads, should i leave boards now or are you all going to calm down

yes. please leave, you stupid ****. you ruined judgement day for me. get the **** out of here.*























*insults are not to be taken personally.

Doctor Fell

Karl Hungus wrote:

And you don't think that's part of the problem? People aren't answering, or debating, they're simply stating "That's racist" as if it invalidates the oppossing arguement.

The door swings both ways. How do you know the people you're calling "Racists" aren't the ones who refuse to stay silent in the face of bigotry or hatred?

No, I think people are answering and debating, but there seems to be an attitude now that you can't even point out that someone's pov is racist.

"How do you know the people you're calling "Racists" aren't the ones who refuse to stay silent in the face of bigotry or hatred?"

Hmm, maybe because they are shouting things like "all Nigerians are spongers", "east europeans are spitting beggars", "afghans are taliban raping scum". So I don't see how that is standing up against bigotry.

And btw, your story about the East European beggar is ridiculous, an old chestnut of which there are a few, all having the racist goal of denegrading or stereotyping some race of people. And I don't believe it's happened to you as often as you say.

ChityWest

Doctor Fell wrote:

And btw, your story about the East European beggar is ridiculous, an old chestnut of which there are a few, all having the racist goal of denegrading or stereotyping some race of people. And I don't believe it's happened to you as often as you say.

Hmm - racist and a liar - were making progress here.

Doctor Fell

ChityWest wrote:

Yep you are. Your original accusation of racism was made on the basis that to post information describing one of the afghans as a rapist/murderer was racism. You have now included subsequent comments made in the thread to justify your original point which had actually zero basis in fact.

What???? Jesus, what is so complicated here?
Try reading my posts again maybe. That wasn't my original point (not accusation). LOL

ChityWest

Doctor Fell wrote:

What???? Jesus, what is so complicated here?
Try reading my posts again maybe. That wasn't my original point (not accusation). LOL

Looks like it wasnt ! I could have sworn I saw a post there from yourself which gave as evidence of racism the fact that somone had brought up the rapist/murderer information about one of the afghans. Seems I was mistaken. I still dont see any actual proof of racism in this case. * And to accuse somone or group is more accurately described as an accusation than a point.

Degsy

Racism my arse.I've been posting on this site for a year and i havnt actaully heard anybody using direct racial abuse or racial epithets.I think the problem is more one of xenophobia generally rather than racism and guess what?EVERY country on earth has a problem with foreigners,usually based either on historical bad-blood or negative stereotyping.Listen to the English and French,Italians and Maltese,Turks and Greeks,Americans and Canadians to name just a few.Its unlikeley that people will all just suddenly start getting along with each other no matter how similar they are racially.Personally i'm of the opinion that if people are guests in a country for whatever reason the very least they should do is obey the laws of the land and stop reinforcing negative stereotyping of thier own people.

Karl Hungus

Doctor Fell wrote:

No, I think people are answering and debating, but there seems to be an attitude now that you can't even point out that someone's pov is racist.

I don't think that's a bad thing at all. It means that you can't fall back on the good old one trick pony race card when an arguement isn't going your way.

Doctor Fell wrote:

Hmm, maybe because they are shouting things like "all Nigerians are spongers", "east europeans are spitting beggars", "afghans are taliban raping scum". So I don't see how that is standing up against bigotry.

And btw, your story about the East European beggar is ridiculous, an old chestnut of which there are a few, all having the racist goal of denegrading or stereotyping some race of people. And I don't believe it's happened to you as often as you say.

Now, it's one hell of a leap to come to the conclusion that because I cited an example of a beggar, supposedly that's to say that all Eastern Europeans are as such?

I think your reasoning is defective! I'd love to hear the logic behind that one. Probably no better than the logic behind your assertion that the motivations behind my anecdote was a "Racist goal of denegrading or stereotyping some race of people."

You don't believe my story? Well that's your prerogative. But I love your willfull disreguard for what's actually being said. You're making incredible leaps and assumptions, aswell as misrepresenting comments, and making spurious claims.

"afghans are taliban raping scum"

I'd love to see where exactly that was said. Because I was following the 'Afghan hunger strike' thread in After Hours very closely, and I don't remember anything of the sort being said. I certainly remember it be stated that one member of the group was infact a rapist and a member of the Taliban.

However, to suit your goals, this fact was twisted into a statement about how "All Afghans are rapist Taliban murderers!" :rolleyes:

The Corinthian

Doctor Fell wrote:

No, I think people are answering and debating, but there seems to be an attitude now that you can't even point out that someone's pov is racist.

The problem is that much of the time the term is bandied around, those doing so don’t even know what it means.

Hmm, maybe because they are shouting things like "all Nigerians are spongers", "east europeans are spitting beggars", "afghans are taliban raping scum". So I don't see how that is standing up against bigotry.

There’s a Nigerian race?

ChityWest

Doctor Fell wrote:

What???? Jesus, what is so complicated here?
Try reading my posts again maybe. That wasn't my original point (not accusation). LOL

This is the post (from AH not Feedback ) where you accused somone of racism :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51413872&postcount=1059

Doctor Fell wrote:

This is a clear example of the racism being talked about in Feedback. A prejudiced view based on race. Hmm, in the Taleban eh? Must have murder/rape victims. Absolute total conjecture and hearsay of the worst kind, fuelling hatred towards Afghans. Mods I hope you ban this slandering racist.

And Julep, suicide is no longer a crime in this country.

So you did accuse somone of racism based on their having mentioned that one of the afghans was a rapist/murderer. And it is an accusation - not a point that your making.

Stark

Doctor Fell wrote:

Hmm, maybe because they are shouting things like "all Nigerians are spongers", "east europeans are spitting beggars", "afghans are taliban raping scum". So I don't see how that is standing up against bigotry.

And btw, your story about the East European beggar is ridiculous, an old chestnut of which there are a few, all having the racist goal of denegrading or stereotyping some race of people. And I don't believe it's happened to you as often as you say.

He didn't say "east europeans are spitting beggars", he says it disgusts him when East European beggars spit at him. They're two very different statements.

Like when I say it disgusts me to see Irish people getting drunk and violent, I'm not saying "Irish people are violent drunkards".

Doctor Fell

Chitty, you are mistaken. It's fairly clear which side of the fence you are on, and I know you are going to continue trying to stir it. So basically if you would read my OP in this thread you will see that I was replying to the OP's post about racist attitudes on AH. I agreed saying that some people definitely post in a racist manner. That is not an accusation, that was simply the point I was making, or an observation if you will. Thx anyway but I know perfectly well what an accusation is, good man yourself.

BTW the element of racism I was refering to in the Afghan thread, and the slanderous part was when the poster was saying they "probably" got their money from backhanders, murder or rape victims. That is conjecture and is slanderous.
OK?

Doctor Fell

Stark wrote:

He didn't say "east europeans are spitting beggars", he says it disgusts him when East European beggars spit at him. They're two very different statements.

Like when I say it disgusts me to see Irish people getting drunk and violent, I'm not saying "Irish people are violent drunkards".

Thx, but I know he didn't say that, in fact I didn't even say that he did. Of course they are 2 different statements, I'm not at all implying their equivalence. I think you've obviously misunderstood me! It was an example of some of the crap that you hear about other people.

Degsy

Doctor Fell wrote:

Chitty, you are mistaken. It's fairly clear which side of the fence you are on, and I know you are going to continue trying to stir it. So basically if you would read my OP in this thread you will see that I was replying to the OP's post about racist attitudes on AH. I agreed saying that some people definitely post in a racist manner. That is not an accusation, that was simply the point I was making, or an observation if you will. Thx anyway but I know perfectly well what an accusation is, good man yourself.

BTW the element of racism I was refering to in the Afghan thread, and the slanderous part was when the poster was saying they "probably" got their money from backhanders, murder or rape victims. That is conjecture and is slanderous.
OK?

It might be slanderous but it still isnt racism.I think people should be banned for calling others racist if its not true..its pretty much the worst thing you can accuse somebody of.