134,000 PPS numbers issued to non-nationals in 2004 alone

Cantab.

134,000 PPS numbers issued to non-nationals in 2004 alone - I thought this figure was interestingly high.

Source: oasis.gov.ie - PPS numbers

God only knows the number of people that came in to Ireland in 2005 and 2006. Must be at least an extra 10% to our population in the space of 3 years?

Is the government doing enough to deal with this startling change in our social demographics?

MrSinn

im surprised its not a larger figure

The_Minister

Don't forget that some would have left in the meantime.

EDIT: drdre, the number here would not match the number registered, and this should be kept in mind.

drdre

so whats your point?:rolleyes:

Hobbes

134,000 does not mean there are 134,000 non-nationals still here at the end of year 2004.

Anyone who works in Ireland needs a PPS number, likewise if you want to drive here if you have a visa to stay (and don't have an international driving license). Also students as well. Any number of reason.

Anyway its not a good indicator of what foreign nationals are in Ireland. Census should be out soon.

ISAW

Cantab. wrote:

134,000 PPS numbers issued to non-nationals in 2004 alone - I thought this figure was interestingly high.

Source: oasis.gov.ie - PPS numbers

God only knows the number of people that came in to Ireland in 2005 and 2006. Must be at least an extra 10% to our population in the space of 3 years?

At about that rate (now slowed) the population would double in 30 years. Imagine that!
What do you think the working population should grow at when an aconomy has 6 per cent growth?

Is the government doing enough to deal with this startling change in our social demographics?

I don't know is it? what do you think a government should be doing to deal with more people at work than ever? Maybe you think we should go into debt have negative growth and massive emigration instead?

MontgomeryClift

The government claimed that there would be only a 'trickle' of immigrants from the EU accession countries. 10% of the population in 3 years is obviously not a trickle so either

a) They knew this would happen and lied to quash fears about mass immigration or

b) They didn't foresee the mass immigration we have now.

ISAW wrote:

I don't know is it? what do you think a government should be doing to deal with more people at work than ever? Maybe you think we should go into debt have negative growth and massive emigration instead?

Or we could have economic growth and massive immigration like France or Germany and then have the same recession, double digit unemployment, racial segregation and riots that they've had.

seamus

As Hobbes says, PPSNs are purely required to work here, not to live here. And they're not revoked when you leave. I would say a significant proportion of those 134,000 are students, who are over here for the period of their studies and are working part-time in bars, clubs, shops and restaurants - all the little jobs that we don't want to do.

It's far from a decent indicator of immigrant statistics.

BOHSBOHS

10% of the people living here were not born here
and that % will only increase

as unlike other european countries we have no restrictions on the number of
people from new eu member states coming in , we are being flooded by them
deny it if u want hobbes but ur not accepting reality

when is the census information out ...

you guys crack me up with your "most of them are students comment"
i know about 100 polish people living here and not 1 of them is here as a student....

BOHSBOHS

BOHSBOHS wrote:

you guys crack me up with your "most of them are students comment"
i know about 100 polish people living here and not 1 of them is here as a student....

So what?

BOHSBOHS

so... its is wrong to say "most of them are students" when very few of them are ??

New_Departure06

Actually over 200,000 PPS no.s have been issued so far to nationals of the new EU states since EU Enlargement.

With this in mind, politicians should proceed cautiously on the question of labour-market access for Romania and Bulgaria when they join.

MontgomeryClift

I'll be Locking this thread soon if theres no effort being made to actually discuss something other than rant.
If anyone really wants to moan about fellow Europeans,(which is what I took from your post BOHSBOHS particularally) theres other places you can go to.

This board is not a soapbox it's a discussion forum.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Or we could have economic growth and massive immigration like France or Germany and then have the same recession, double digit unemployment, racial segregation and riots that they've had.

Thats no answer to what ISAW said.He was making the point that there is no problem.The economy is soaking up all the EU labourforce that it can get at the moment and is looking for more.

Where is this recession and double digit unemployment that you speak of going to come from? No Economic forecast that I've seen is pointing to anything other than more growth here and ergo more demand for labour.

Honestly I'm sensing selfishness here.
We the Irish can travel the world and the seven seas to work when times were bad but some resent a quid pro quo when we are the new rich.
Whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
The irony in the apparent resentment of this by some is that ,our economy is growing partly as a result of being fed with Eastern EU labour it cannot provide for itself.

New_Departure06

Honestly I'm sensing selfishness here.
We the Irish can travel the world and the seven seas to work when times were bad but some resent a quid pro quo when we are the new rich.
Whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
The irony in the apparent resentment of this by some is that ,our economy is growing partly as a result of being fed with Eastern EU labour it cannot provide for itself.

I don't remember us having the same kind of open-door access in the 20th century to the US as Eastern Europeans have to Ireland now. Also our country was always far smaller in population terms than the country of destination, which is not the case regarding current Eastern European migration to Ireland. Migration from a country of 40 million isn't comparable to that from a country of 4-8 million, Earthman.

dRNk SAnTA

Earthman wrote:

Honestly I'm sensing selfishness here.
We the Irish can travel the world and the seven seas to work when times were bad but some resent a quid pro quo when we are the new rich.
Whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
The irony in the apparent resentment of this by some is that ,our economy is growing partly as a result of being fed with Eastern EU labour it cannot provide for itself.

I agree completely. Despite the considerable immigration to Ireland there has been little change in our unemployment levels. This is a clear indication that job displacement is not taking place - theres work enough for everybody! Ireland achieved full employment (amazing achievement) 5 years ago, since then our continued economic success has been based much more on the growth of the labour force rather than increased productivity.

Im often suprised at the xenophobia around the place, irish people and eastern europeans arent that different!

I disagree

Since we are coming up to the summer there will be quite a number of students looking for work and I have heard that many of the jobs occupied by them in years gone by are now in the hands of foreigners. These people need money for college and they can't be considered selfish or xenophobic.

seamus

Earthman wrote:

Honestly I'm sensing selfishness here.
We the Irish can travel the world and the seven seas to work when times were bad but some resent a quid pro quo when we are the new rich.
Whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
The irony in the apparent resentment of this by some is that ,our economy is growing partly as a result of being fed with Eastern EU labour it cannot provide for itself.

I have to agree. Even when I was a student, I was working alongside foreign students and workers. There was no theft, there was just employment (it was 4 years ago). A lot of it is fear. For a long time, we had to work to find jobs. For intents and purposes now, there is 100% employment now in this country. Fine, you may not be able to get the job you want, but that doesn't mean there's no jobs for you.
Now we are starved for employees. I've said this, and it will be said till we're blue in the face; Immigrants are the backbone of our thriving economy. They weren't till recently, but we're Irish - We change and we change quickly and with little resistance. Now Irish people work in trades or in offices. We let the immigrants do the grunt work. You want to have less PPSNs being issued? Stop shopping in the supermarkets. Stop ordering chinese and pizzas. Stop drinking in pubs.

The simple fact is that we have an educated population, all of whom want to do the job that they're trained for. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be as good as you can be. It disturbs me that the Irish can be so resentful of immigrants when there are almost 100 million people on this planet who come from Irish emigration.

New_Departure06

I agree completely. Despite the considerable immigration to Ireland there has been little change in our unemployment levels. This is a clear indication that job displacement is not taking place - theres work enough for everybody! Ireland achieved full employment (amazing achievement) 5 years ago, since then our continued economic success has been based much more on the growth of the labour force rather than increased productivity.

Im often suprised at the xenophobia around the place, irish people and eastern europeans arent that different!

I want Irish people to remain the majority in their own country. I don't want foreigners choosing our govt by becoming the majority of the electorate through naturalisation. In fact FG say they want to give all immigrants here for 3 yrs General Election voting rights. So they wouldn't even have to wait for naturalisation! This daft proposal would make citizenship meaningless for practical purposes. It shows what a soft-touch the Rainbow would be.

On job-displacement I disagree. The AIB study last year showed that around 18,000 people had lost their jobs in agriculture and replaced by foreigners. Also, there is the fact that unemployment is no longer falling. It could be argued that apart from the question on displacement, that competition with cheap foreign labour is preventing Irish unemployed from finding work.

Also, an Irish worker is hardly going to be as likely to demand a pay-hike when there are 15 Poles ready to do the job instead.

On the Irish emigration point, the difference is that Ireland is a small country and part of the Old World, whereas our countries of destination were in general neither. We went mainly to the UK, US, Australia etc. - countries that already have lost their indigenous majorities. We have a native identity on the other hand.

Hobbes

New_Departure06 wrote:

I want Irish people to remain the majority in their own country.

Define Irish? Born in the country? Able to trace your linage back to Brian Boru?

If a Nigerian marries an Irish person and they have a child who in time marries a Nigerian and they have a child. Is thier child Irish? What about 4-5 generations down?

How about a Nigerian who marries a person who can trace thier linage back to Ireland but hadn't set foot in Ireland.

I don't want foreigners choosing our govt by becoming the majority of the electorate through naturalisation.

Unless the person applies for citizenship it is illegal for them to vote (which means 3-4 years later). Of course I don't see any outrage about the large number of Irish people who are no longer in Ireland who are allowed vote.

Also, an Irish worker is hardly going to be as likely to demand a pay-hike when there are 15 Poles ready to do the job instead.

If they are doing a good job then asking for a pay increase shouldn't be an issue. It is only the McJobs that this would apply to, and it wouldn't matter if there were 15 poles in the queue or 15 Irish people.

the difference is that Ireland is a small country and part of the Old World

Define Old World? How do you get into this elitest club?

New_Departure06

Unless the person applies for citizenship it is illegal for them to vote (which means 3-4 years later). Of course I don't see any outrage about the large number of Irish people who are no longer in Ireland who are allowed vote.

Richard Bruton has called for that to be changed so that being here 3 years gives you the vote in a General Election irrespective of applications for citizenship. He was on a radio a few weeks ago calling for this and I understand it is FG policy.

Define Irish? Born in the country? Able to trace your linage back to Brian Boru?

If a Nigerian marries an Irish person and they have a child who in time marries a Nigerian and they have a child. Is thier child Irish? What about 4-5 generations down?

How about a Nigerian who marries a person who can trace thier linage back to Ireland but hadn't set foot in Ireland.

I define it according to the Citizenship Referendum's definition of who automatically gets Irish citizenship upon birth.

Hobbes

New_Departure06 wrote:

Richard Bruton has called for that to be changed so that being here 3 years gives you the vote in a General Election irrespective of applications for citizenship.

Yea well come back to us when it actually happens. Although its intresting that we have no problem taking these peoples taxes yet no representation.

I define it according to the Citizenship Referendum's definition of who automatically gets Irish citizenship upon birth.

Ahh ok. So if a Nigerian family come over to Ireland and get citizenship (well just one needs it) and have a child here then the child is Irish.

New_Departure06

New_Departure06 wrote:

I don't remember us having the same kind of open-door access in the 20th century to the US as Eastern Europeans have to Ireland now.

It was fairly open door.You got to work illegally with little hindrance.As for the UK, that was fully open door.

Also our country was always far smaller in population terms than the country of destination,

So? show me where this inward migration of fellow Europeans is hurting this country and while you are at it show me some reliable Economic anaylsis indicating that it will...Unless you do your argument is based purely on race.

which is not the case regarding current Eastern European migration to Ireland. Migration from a country of 40 million isn't comparable to that from a country of 4-8 million, Earthman.

and your point caller, that they shouldnt come because they are from a bigger country?
You'll have to make a better case than that...
So far you're making no case at all and you certainly havent answered the selfishness point.
Indeed you've tried to side step it.
So like my plea earlier in this thread,I'd urge you to actually put a bit of substance in your posts rather than just troll because trolling is not acceptable around here and will be stamped out if it continues.

On job-displacement I disagree. The AIB study last year showed that around 18,000 people had lost their jobs in agriculture and replaced by foreigners. Also, there is the fact that unemployment is no longer falling. It could be argued that apart from the question on displacement, that competition with cheap foreign labour is preventing Irish unemployed from finding work.

With respect thats bull.You are deliberately ignoring our unemployment statistics.The bulk of those leaving agriculture havent gone on the dole, they are working on the buildings,driving trucks or a myriad of other much higher paying jobs outside of agriculture.Some are further educating themselves and not entering agricultural work at all and go on to like Seamus said to fullfill their resulting higher expectations in terms of where they will work.

New_Departure06

New_Departure06 wrote:

I want Irish people to remain the majority in their own country. I don't want foreigners choosing our govt by becoming the majority of the electorate through naturalisation.

Ah
Cat out of the bag there.

You are going on with the same kind of tripe that you did in the no to a Eurostate thread eg the EU could force us to build a nuclear power plant yada yada yada... :rolleyes:
Troll once more or use this place as a soap box for racism and you will be newly departed from this forum.

bonkey

New_Departure06 wrote:

On job-displacement I disagree. The AIB study last year showed that around 18,000 people had lost their jobs in agriculture and replaced by foreigners.

Right...but can you show that had we less foreigners that these 18000 would have remained where they were, or could it equally be the case that they would be ge anyway, and that agruculture would be undergoing either a massive shortage of available labour or a fundamental shift (where farms consolidate etc.) as they were no longer financially viable?

I don't know which is more accurate, but I'm willing to bet that you don't either and have simply chosen to construe it one particular way (or believe in someone else's construal of it being that way).

Also, there is the fact that unemployment is no longer falling.

What level is it at, that its not falling? Significantly above the zero-unemployment mark?

On the Irish emigration point, the difference is that Ireland is a small country and part of the Old World, whereas our countries of destination were in general neither.

In other words, emigration is an old-boys network where you help out those who are vaguely connected to you, ignoring in its place what would be fair and right?

Well, if thats the way you want to argue it....

We went mainly to the UK, US, Australia etc. - countries that already have lost their indigenous majorities. We have a native identity on the other hand.

"Lost" their indicenous majorities, did they? Woke up one morning, and, goodness, there they were....gone, was it? When, exactly, did that happen to the UK? 1066 or thereabouts?

jc

Macmorris

ISAW wrote:

At about that rate (now slowed) the population would double in 30 years. Imagine that!
What do you think the working population should grow at when an aconomy has 6 per cent growth?

Like most threads on immigration it didn't take long for the debate to become dominated by the economy.

Read cantab's original post. He didn't mention anything about the economy. The thread is about the growth in the immigrant population and whether or not our government is doing enough to make sure that the growth is in our country's interests.

The open-borders brigade always try to portray immigration as being nothing more than an economic issue when for most people it has far more to do with questions of national identity. It's about the kind of country we want to become. Leaving aside how well the economy might be peforming, do we really want to have share our country with hundreds of thousands of foreigners, particularly when our history provides a perfect example of why that might be a bad idea.

seamus wrote:

It disturbs me that the Irish can be so resentful of immigrants when there are almost 100 million people on this planet who come from Irish emigration.

That's right, play the guilt card. The Irish emigrated around the world so now we have to let the whole world immigrate here. If we say anything about we'll be seen as ungrateful.

There's only one problem with that view. Irish people didn't emigrate around the world. If we emigrated how come we're still here? Would it not be true to say that while alot of Irish people did emigrate most of us stayed behind?

The fact that we're the descendants of the people who stayed behind in Ireland gives us a right to say who we let into our country. We have nothing to feel guilty about.

Earthman wrote:

Thats no answer to what ISAW said.He was making the point that there is no problem.The economy is soaking up all the EU labourforce that it can get at the moment and is looking for more.

That's a very short-sighted view to take. There might not be any problem now but what about when the economy slows down and we'll have thousands of people out of work. Something like 20% of the immigrants are employed in construction. What will happen when the housing boom wears off and these immigrants will have to find other employment. They'll either have to compete with Irish people in which case the Irish will be at a disadvantage, or they'll start claiming the dole, in which case they'll be a huge burden on the taxpayer and they'll start soaking up money that should be spent on our own people. I think we're already nearing the stage when the immigrants will be entitled to receive welfare payments. That's when the fun should really start.

Earthman wrote:

The bulk of those leaving agriculture havent gone on the dole, they are working on the buildings,driving trucks or a myriad of other much higher paying jobs outside of agriculture.

Do you have the statistics to back that up are you just doing the same thing that you were criticising New_Departure06 for?

Troll once more or use this place as a soap box for racism and you will be newly departed from this forum.

A little bit of power and it goes to your head.

Why don't you kick me out as well while you're at it because I'm not too happy either about the prospect of Irish people becoming an ethnic minority in our own country.

Flying

Earthman wrote:

I'll be Locking this thread soon if theres no effort being made to actually discuss something other than rant.
If anyone really wants to moan about fellow Europeans,(which is what I took from your post BOHSBOHS particularally) theres other places you can go to.

This board is not a soapbox it's a discussion forum. Thats no answer to what ISAW said.He was making the point that there is no problem.The economy is soaking up all the EU labourforce that it can get at the moment and is looking for more.

Where is this recession and double digit unemployment that you speak of going to come from? No Economic forecast that I've seen is pointing to anything other than more growth here and ergo more demand for labour.

Honestly I'm sensing selfishness here.
We the Irish can travel the world and the seven seas to work when times were bad but some resent a quid pro quo when we are the new rich.
Whats sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
The irony in the apparent resentment of this by some is that ,our economy is growing partly as a result of being fed with Eastern EU labour it cannot provide for itself.

Can you answer me this why in gods green earth do we need to import even 5% of this labour when we have unemployed people here, why dont we get them employed to fill the gap and keep the money in the economy, I understand a very small precentage of the unemployed can't work but there is plenty of able bodied men and women who should be made do so.

The simple matter of fact is putting the "racist" branding most people get with an opinion to one side is, that the Social Welfare system is very inviting and hence these people will generally ( I have been told by plenty of eastern european workers I work with) that the scam is to work for 13 Months and then they can claim all the benifits etc and then work on the double then, which is happening big time, they are doing it in N.I and down here.

But I assume if we had a serious economic downturn then they would leave and goto the next country to do the same.

Also trying to compare irish emmigration to this is silly, when you goto the USA or Oz you get no handouts, you work or strave, I did it and plenty others did, as for the UK it is not as easy to claim benifits there as it is here.


So my conclusion is yes bring in skilled workers, "Genuine" refugees not the idiots we have now and also encourage Irish people who are unemployed to work, we could kill the unemployment numbers to little or nothing if we did.

With the current influx I would assume the countries infrastruture would not be able to handle it as we are a small country of 4 Million unlike the UK 12 times the population and size

oscarBravo

Macmorris wrote:

It's about the kind of country we want to become.

Yes, it is. Speaking for myself (and I'm not alone in this), I don't want us to become a country of xenophobes.

Macmorris wrote:

...do we really want to have share our country with hundreds of thousands of foreigners...

I'm already sharing my country with "foreigners". Several of my neighbours and close friends are "foreigners". In the same way, my brother lives a happy and productive life as a "foreigner" in England. What's the problem?

Macmorris wrote:

...particularly when our history provides a perfect example of why that might be a bad idea.

You'll have to explain to my why that is so.

Macmorris

Macmorris wrote:

The open-borders brigade always try to portray immigration as being nothing more than an economic issue when for most people it has far more to do with questions of national identity. It's about the kind of country we want to become.

wheres your reference for that then?

Leaving aside how well the economy might be peforming, do we really want to have share our country with hundreds of thousands of foreigners, particularly when our history provides a perfect example of why that might be a bad idea.

You mean Do you? unless you are using the royal "we"
Why should we leave aside how the economy is doing,is it because its awkward to acknowledge that these eastern European employee's are needed?

That's right, play the guilt card. The Irish emigrated around the world so now we have to let the whole world immigrate here. If we say anything about we'll be seen as ungrateful.

I'm not one bit guilty...

There's only one problem with that view. Irish people didn't emigrate around the world. If we emigrated how come we're still here? Would it not be true to say that while alot of Irish people did emigrate most of us stayed behind?

I suggest you take a visit to Ellis island for what we had to do when relative to the rest of the world we were in a bad way economically.We were allowed legally to do that then just as Eastern Europeans are allowed to enter here legally now.

The fact that we're the descendants of the people who stayed behind in Ireland gives us a right to say who we let into our country. We have nothing to feel guilty about.

Is that the royal "we" again or have you evidence that that is the substantial view? Are there mass demonstrations to back up this royal view of yours?

That's a very short-sighted view to take. There might not be any problem now but what about when the economy slows down and we'll have thousands of people out of work. Something like 20% of the immigrants are employed in construction. What will happen when the housing boom wears off and these immigrants will have to find other employment.

I'd imagine they'll go home.

They'll either have to compete with Irish people in which case the Irish will be at a disadvantage, or they'll start claiming the dole, in which case they'll be a huge burden on the taxpayer and they'll start soaking up money that should be spent on our own people.

Now you're restorting to conjecture to somehow back up your own racist slant on the thing.It's not working.

I think we're already nearing the stage when the immigrants will be entitled to receive welfare payments. That's when the fun should really start.

You do realise this is the EU,we are talking about? If our economy goes to pot,we return to the position of being net beneficiaries.

Mind you I asked in my last post for any reasonable economic analysis indicicating an iminent slackening in the Irish economy.. now lets be having it as the rest of your argument amounts to,I dont want these people here,Ireland for the Irish , yada yada yada

Do you have the statistics to back that up are you just doing the same thing that you were criticising New_Departure06 for?

I can tell you the number of Irish farmers [source CSO] has dropped by 30,000 since 1991 and what way has the unemployment rate gone in the meantime.
Do the maths.
The conclusion that Europeans are displacing Irish jobs is rubbis.

A little bit of power and it goes to your head.

Carefull now

Why don't you kick me out as well while you're at it because I'm not too happy either about the prospect of Irish people becoming an ethnic minority in our own country.

Quite frankly I dont care jackshít about your Ireland for the Irish ideology.
What I do care about is you and new departure coming here and expecting to soapbox it with conjecture and patently silly notions (ND's ridiculous claims on nuclear power for instance) and flying in the face of people pointing out obvious flaws in your position and you still expecting to continue to soap box devoid of anything other than conjecture and certainly devoid of fact.

gurramok

Macmorris wrote:

That's a very short-sighted view to take. There might not be any problem now but what about when the economy slows down and we'll have thousands of people out of work. Something like 20% of the immigrants are employed in construction. What will happen when the housing boom wears off and these immigrants will have to find other employment. They'll either have to compete with Irish people in which case the Irish will be at a disadvantage, or they'll start claiming the dole, in which case they'll be a huge burden on the taxpayer and they'll start soaking up money that should be spent on our own people. I think we're already nearing the stage when the immigrants will be entitled to receive welfare payments. That's when the fun should really start.

Good point, i actually never thought of the consequences when it will happen.

Anyway, with the likes of Spain, Portugal fully opening and with France/Netherlands/Belgium opening partial sectors of their economy later this year so there will be alot more choice for a potential immigrant rather than the current choice of Ireland, Uk & Sweden.
I predict next year there would be a significant drop-off in immigrants coming here becasue of this.
The new candidate countries for an immigrant have substantially lower cost of living, better economies and of course the sun

Flying

Flying wrote:

Can you answer me this why in gods green earth do we need to import even 5% of this labour when we have unemployed people here, why dont we get them employed to fill the gap and keep the money in the economy, I understand a very small precentage of the unemployed can't work but there is plenty of able bodied men and women who should be made do so.

It's not my fault that there are some Irish people who want to sit on their árses and draw the dole.I would be in favour of a very tough regime to root that problem out.
Incidently I have an involvent in the recruitment world and the amount of work out there is unreal.Theres no excuse for not being employed in some shape or form except a medical one.

The simple matter of fact is putting the "racist" branding most people get with an opinion to one side is, that the Social Welfare system is very inviting and hence these people will generally ( I have been told by plenty of eastern european workers I work with) that the scam is to work for 13 Months and then they can claim all the benifits etc and then work on the double then, which is happening big time, they are doing it in N.I and down here.

Frankly if the Dole system in NI is anything as tightly controlled as the one in the rest of the UK,I would doubt that, its as big a problem as you might think-in fact you've more or less conceded that its a tight system later in your post.
As for here,I'd have confidence in the authorities banging that nail on the head should the need arise.
At present the figures for such a problem dont stack up.

Also trying to compare irish emmigration to this is silly, when you goto the USA or Oz you get no handouts, you work or strave, I did it and plenty others did, as for the UK it is not as easy to claim benifits there as it is here.

It's not that easy here either.You can get them for sure but try living on them.
The vast majority of Eastern Europeans I've came across are hard working and are looking to better themselves.Most of them that I have came across are only interested in earning money so they can return home and build a life back home.It's a win win situation, ie we get the cheaper labour and they get the lolly to go home with.
If that sounds familiar,it is, as its exactly what the Irish did for decades in Britain and the states.

So my conclusion is yes bring in skilled workers, "Genuine" refugees not the idiots we have now and also encourage Irish people who are unemployed to work, we could kill the unemployment numbers to little or nothing if we did.

To be honest with you, thats a very naive outlook.
Fact of the matter is, the EU has expanded and our unemployment rates are historically low.Theres no accounting for the reasons why some percentage of any society wants to scam the rest of it by not working deliberately.
I'd imagine as well that a significant proportion of the unemployed are a roll over figure ie they are between jobs and infact it is these who are the most effectient users of the social welfare system.

With the current influx I would assume the countries infrastruture would not be able to handle it as we are a small country of 4 Million unlike the UK 12 times the population and size

Driven on some of our new motorways yet? Our infrastructure is far from perfect,thats for sure but its improving.
We are playing catch up.
Having the expectation that in the ten or so years of the good economic growth that we have had,that we should have an equivalent almost over night increase in infrastructure is unrealistic.
Mind you it's far from an argument that we should not have oodles of European labour building our expanding infrastructure.

gurramok wrote:

Anyway, with the likes of Spain, Portugal fully opening and with France/Netherlands/Belgium opening partial sectors of their economy later this year so there will be alot more choice for a potential immigrant rather than the current choice of Ireland, Uk & Sweden.
I predict next year there would be a significant drop-off in immigrants coming here becasue of this.
The new candidate countries for an immigrant have substantially lower cost of living, better economies and of course the sun

Thats a very valid point and I'm glad you brought it up.
It's unlikely to calm the Ireland for the Irish crowd though as their distaste for anyone not Irish isnt even thinly veiled.
It's just as well they are a tiny minority which is irony in itself

Pocari Sweat

Cantab. wrote:

134,000 PPS numbers issued to non-nationals in 2004 alone - I thought this figure was interestingly high.

Source: oasis.gov.ie - PPS numbers

God only knows the number of people that came in to Ireland in 2005 and 2006. Must be at least an extra 10% to our population in the space of 3 years?

Is the government doing enough to deal with this startling change in our social demographics?

The more the merrier I say.

If Ireland eventually got up to 20 million people, regardless of what the cultural make up was, I think it would be an economy to contend with.

With a higher population say over 10 million you would get:

A more serious road and rail network, maybe a euro-type tunnel linking Dublin or Wexford with Wales.

A more competitive economy, less get rich quick builders and rogue traders out to do the quickest job for the dearest cost.

Less patriotic and nationalistic fervour, with biggots dropping away to minor and benign fringes. End of North / South divide, too much more to get on with than look backward and get bitter with.

A more developed range of foods and international cuisine.

A focus on bringing back things that were good in the past heritage of Ireland, looking at the good stuff, and not wingeing too much about the bad.

Go nuclear, look at renewable energy sources, develop independent energy needs.

Put a national football team together that is home grown and win the world cup. Imagine that, and what about regularly beating England?

Phase out all corruption and back handers. Start up watch dog groups that monitor price rip offs and bad service. Get price labelling actually enforced in shops etc. Get other independent bodies in place to monitor Eircom and other companies who have extremely poor service.

Become world leaders in more of the larger industries, car, boat, aircraft etc or more high tech stuff (although that end is doing pretty well).

Just get more people in, stop the stick in the muds wingeing on about national pride etc, and just get on with it, welcome other cultures, diversify, get over xenophobia.