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134,000 PPS numbers issued to non-nationals in 2004 alone
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Pocari Sweat wrote:If Ireland eventually got up to 20 million people, regardless of what the cultural make up was, I think it would be an economy to contend with.
I believe this as well. When I visted South Korea I was just amazed at the infrastructure and how a lot of stuff that we get raped on price is cheap in comparison. The countrys landmass is not that much bigger then Ireland (and most of it is not habitable). Yet they managed to change from a third world to First world in the space of 30 years.
What they do have is numbers. Around 48 million people, while we have 4 million. Thats about the population of London.
Ireland is going to die if it continues to be in the low numbers. We don't have the infrastructure to all start having 10 or babies, so the only way to build that infrastructure is to get the numbers from elsewhere. And if they like it here all the better.0 -
MontgomeryClift wrote:The government claimed that there would be only a 'trickle' of immigrants from the EU accession countries. 10% of the population in 3 years is obviously not a trickle so either
Im still waiting for evidence from you to support this claim.
Originally Posted by ISAW
I don't know is it? what do you think a government should be doing to deal with more people at work than ever? Maybe you think we should go into debt have negative growth and massive emigration instead?Or we could have economic growth and massive immigration like France or Germany and then have the same recession, double digit unemployment, racial segregation and riots that they've had.
But we DONT have that! We have people working and more jobs being created. and gainsaying is NOT counterargument. In any case Ireland does not resemble the situation in france. Please show me how Ireland is so like France and how out system will mirror what happened to them. they are not similar in the way you are trying to make out..0 -
Hobbes wrote:I believe this as well. When I visted South Korea I was just amazed at the infrastructure and how a lot of stuff that we get raped on price is cheap in comparison. The countrys landmass is not that much bigger then Ireland (and most of it is not habitable). Yet they managed to change from a third world to First world in the space of 30 years.
What they do have is numbers. Around 48 million people, while we have 4 million. Thats about the population of London.
Ireland is going to die if it continues to be in the low numbers. We don't have the infrastructure to all start having 10 or babies, so the only way to build that infrastructure is to get the numbers from elsewhere. And if they like it here all the better.
I thought London's population including suburbs is about 7 million.
Part of the reason stuff is cheaper in S. Korea is its GDP per capita is much lower than Ireland's. It's like comparing Spanish and Irish prices.
With the high population (density) comes economic muscle, but it also brings:
1, Pollution, damage to the environment
2. Congestion/people living on top of each other - no matter how efficiently living space and transport for people are arranged. (If we compare to S. Korea with 48 million people, the idea of Dublin with 10-12 million inhabitants gives me the shivers tbh). Oh, and golf will now become a luxury sport for multimillionaires...:D
3. Intense competition. Massive pressure on everyone to succeed in their education and work. By comparison we are decidedly workshy and easygoing here [less so than we were but a long way off being like S. Korea].
On the 3rd point, S. Korea is an almost monocultural society at present, isn't it?
The Ireland with 20 million people or heaven-help-us, 48 million people, would be made up of a much more diverse [and fractious] bunch of people, so a US city or high population density state with many immigrants would be a beter comparison. Or the big cities in multi-ethnic countries like Indonesia or Malaysia.
It will probably have the same occasional flare-ups of race-hatred, begrudgery, inter-religious rivalries etc.
Such a scenario could turn out okay if we manage things well and have a bit of luck or it could be a disaster.0 -
that is your evidence is it? "I have heard"?I disagree wrote:Since we are coming up to the summer there will be quite a number of students looking for work and I have heard that many of the jobs occupied by them in years gone by are now in the hands of foreigners. These people need money for college and they can't be considered selfish or xenophobic.
almost every pub and coffe shop I pass has a "help wanted" notice. Have you heard of that? Supermarkets I enter constantly have announcememts and ads for people to work for them. Have you heard of that?
Irish students have their tuition paid for by the state. Is that selfish? Many students fgo abroad for the summer. The ones that stay should have no problem getting jobs? Have you heard the USI complaining? Maybe we should leave the EU and dump minimum wage and go back to giving students E2.50 an hour eh? they will all have jobs then.0 -
BOHSBOHS wrote:10% of the people living here were not born here
Your evidence is?
By the way do you know what is the largest cohort of Immigrants?
IRISH. Many of them were not born here either!
Your evidence is? And it is a problem because...?and that % will only increaseas unlike other european countries we have no restrictions on the number of
people from new eu member states coming in ,
I think this is plainly wrong! Poland has no restrictions on immegrants, nor Lithuania as far Estonia or Latvia as I know. One of them is much much larger than us and three much smaller.we are being flooded by them
deny it if u want hobbes but ur not accepting reality
Please define "flood". then please supply evidence to show this "flood". You are also committing the logical fallacy of assuming that others have to prove a negative. YOU make a claim about a "flood" it is up to YOU to provide evidence! Otherwise Hobbes may as well say there are Unicorns in his garden and ask you to prove they are not there!
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when is the census information out ...You make a point and then admit ignorance of the issue. Check the CSO releases.you guys crack me up with your "most of them are students comment"
i know about 100 polish people living here and not 1 of them is here as a student....
I know of a hunderd Arabs who are religious fundamentalists but I dont come here claiming that all arabs or muslims must be kicked out of Ireland do I?
You are providing a version of the "ad hominem" fallasy here. For example Hitler liked painting therefore you may argue painters must be bad people.
Mind you hitler disliked Poles. So by your reasoning...0 -
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With respect thats bull.You are deliberately ignoring our unemployment statistics.The bulk of those leaving agriculture havent gone on the dole, they are working on the buildings,driving trucks or a myriad of other much higher paying jobs outside of agriculture.Some are further educating themselves and not entering agricultural work at all and go on to like Seamus said to fullfill their resulting higher expectations in terms of where they will work.
According to the CSO statistics on their website, 17,000 people emigrated from Ireland in 2005 of which 99% were Irish. It is possible that some of these left because they were displaced in Ireland by competition from cheap foreign labour. Do I have absolute proof no. But neither do you have absolute proof that displacement is not happening. Indeed the AIB report was unable to categorically rule out that it may be happening in some sectors.Just get more people in, stop the stick in the muds wingeing on about national pride etc, and just get on with it, welcome other cultures, diversify, get over xenophobia.
I'm tired of endless romanticisation of "diversity" by the elites and by leftwingers. We already have loads of diversity. Too much diversity though means ghettoisation along French lines. If people coming in are encouraged not to learn English, not to sent whatever children they brought with them to schools with Irish people, then ghettoisation develops because assimilation is being resisted. It is no accident that the country most successful in terms of integrating immigrants - the US - also has a firm policy of assimilation largely driven by state-sponsored patriotism in the schools e.g. loyalty pledges, singing the national anthem, raising flag over schools. Some mention Ellis Island. That's interesting, because Irish immigrants going to the US were screened for diseases there - as were immigrants from around the world. Yet some of the same people who prate on about our history of emigration to the US, reject emulating what the US did regard newcomers to our shores regarding the policy areas mentioned in this paragraph. They want to have their cake and eat it - on the one hand to extoll the virtues of immigration without learning the lessons abroad of which models of integration have worked and which have not. To even debate these issues evokes cries of "racist/xenophobe" from the PC-brigade, which is well represented on this forum by threats to ban people because of their questioning views on current policy. In PC-ideology, the priority is the avoidance of offense at all costs, even if that means silencing debate on issues that desperately need to be debated to avoid the scenes in France last year being repeated in Ireland in future. PCness is undemocratic and must be resisted.Anyway, with the likes of Spain, Portugal fully opening and with France/Netherlands/Belgium opening partial sectors of their economy later this year so there will be alot more choice for a potential immigrant rather than the current choice of Ireland, Uk & Sweden.
I predict next year there would be a significant drop-off in immigrants coming here becasue of this.
The new candidate countries for an immigrant have substantially lower cost of living, better economies and of course the sun
The countries lifting some or all controls of course are only doing this for the existing new EU states, and have not clarified their intentions regarding Romania and Bulgaria. Indeed Britain has been cagey as to what it is going to do on Romania and Bulgaria. The Irish govt has strongly hinted at controls on the way for the new EU states. A google search will confirm this and I have checked this out. FG oppose such controls. Immigrants who went to Britain from Eastern Europe would have come here instead had Britain been unavailable last time. With a combined population of 30 million, and a health-service suffering chronic overcrowding, we need to be cautious on the question of immediately opening our doors to Romania and Bulgaria without clarifying the intentions of other EU states first. There is also the question of language-proficiency in Eastern Europe, where Portuguese and Finnish are not exactly widely understood. A recent poll found that 1% of Poles and 4% of Czechs understand Spanish though.
I think a realistic and hardheaded approach is needed on this issue instead of stifling debate on a dogooder platform. There is a lot of caricaturing going on on this thread e.g. you are Ireland-for-the-Irish, you are xenophobic, racist etc. That is nonsense. We accept some people coming in - have I called for zero immigration? It just needs to be managed - and cultural factors need to be considered in the equation too not just economic factors. Some people here know the price of everything and the value of nothing!0 -
New_Departure06 wrote:I want Irish people to remain the majority in their own country.
this is hysterical. The discussion has gone from an unsupported 200,000 immigrants from "undesirable" countries threatening Irish jobs to an unsuported over fifty percent of Ireland being foreign.
It is absolutely hysterical. Even if all the Republican in the North claimed British citizenship along with the Unionists and Ireland was united (creating the biggest influx of new people into the Republic ever!) then there STILL wouldn't be anywhere near 50 percent non Irish.
Foreigners cant chose our government. they cant vote! Irish people vote (well there is a derogation for British people here mind you that is reciprocal in Britian. Imagine giving all the Irish born people in the UK (about a million of them) a postal vote?I don't want foreigners choosing our govtby becoming the majority of the electorate through naturalisation.
this unsupported hysteria is really getting to you. The Roman Empire collapsed when one in three were slaves and not citizens. we are nowhere near that . But it is not for me to show that is it? You claim it YOU prove it!
It would also be unconstitutional! If FG say that then they are clearly misinformed! Where did they say that by the way?In fact FG say they want to give all immigrants here for 3 yrs General Election voting rights. So they wouldn't even have to wait for naturalisation! This daft proposal would make citizenship meaningless for practical purposes. It shows what a soft-touch the Rainbow would be.
what study? where is it?On job-displacement I disagree. The AIB study last year showed that around 18,000 people had lost their jobs in agriculture and replaced by foreigners.Also, there is the fact that unemployment is no longer falling. It could be argued that apart from the question on displacement, that competition with cheap foreign labour is preventing Irish unemployed from finding work.
Well YOU go and make that argument then! But be sure to support it. With evidence!
there is also the generally accepted theory that 5 per cent is actually full nemployment so how could unemployment drop any lower?
are there 15 poles in contract bound public service jobs for every irish one? then we are in trouble!Also, an Irish worker is hardly going to be as likely to demand a pay-hike when there are 15 Poles ready to do the job instead.On the Irish emigration point, the difference is that Ireland is a small country and part of the Old World, whereas our countries of destination were in general neither. We went mainly to the UK, US, Australia etc. - countries that already have lost their indigenous majorities. We have a native identity on the other hand.
But Latvia Estonia etc. does not have restrioctions on immigrants does it? Thay are smaller than Ireland and are also building a new identity. So where is that arguemnt now?0 -
It would also be unconstitutional! If FG say that then they are clearly misinformed! Where did they say that by the way?
http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/opinion/Full_Story/did-sg8KEjy2yyuqI.aspVoting rights - Bruton plea worth more consideration
Voting rights - Bruton plea worth more consideration
RICHARD BRUTON, deputy leader of Fine Gael, has sought to spark a debate on voting rights by suggesting that all foreign nationals living in this country for three years and intending to stay longer should have a right to vote in general elections, whether they take out Irish citizenship or not.But Latvia Estonia etc. does not have restrioctions on immigrants does it? Thay are smaller than Ireland and are also building a new identity. So where is that arguemnt now?
What do you mean they are "building a new identity"? They are not getting 100,000 migrants a year and you know that! I think people resent it when they are spoken for without being asked. Polls show the Baltic states are the most eurosceptic in the Union. The economic pull-factors that cause people to come to Ireland simply do not exist in Eastern Europe.0 -
There has always been a fair portion of people who weren't born here. My niece was born in Chester (of Cork parents) and has spent most of her life in Dublin. She is one of that 10%.BOHSBOHS wrote:10% of the people living here were not born here
and that % will only increase
Well if a language student comes here for 6 months, might or might not have a job, but is likely to have a PPSN regardless ... you do the maths.BOHSBOHS wrote:so... its is wrong to say "most of them are students" when very few of them are ??
You would need 4m+ immigrants to change that.New_Departure06 wrote:I want Irish people to remain the majority in their own country.
Why not?I don't want foreigners choosing our govt by becoming the majority of the electorate through naturalisation.
Do you have a link to this? Agricultural employment is falling due in part to a lack of willing workers.On job-displacement I disagree. The AIB study last year showed that around 18,000 people had lost their jobs in agriculture and replaced by foreigners.
Because it can't fall any lower.Also, there is the fact that unemployment is no longer falling.
Oddly the topic is about PPS numbers.Macmorris wrote:Like most threads on immigration it didn't take long for the debate to become dominated by the economy.
If you are referring to the plantations, I think you analogy has gone terribly wrong, for the problems the plantations brought were largely due to the class system.Leaving aside how well the economy might be peforming, do we really want to have share our country with hundreds of thousands of foreigners, particularly when our history provides a perfect example of why that might be a bad idea.
Many an Irish person has left and come back, whether tehy were gone for 6 months or 40 years.There's only one problem with that view. Irish people didn't emigrate around the world. If we emigrated how come we're still here?
No, most Irish people left.Would it not be true to say that while alot of Irish people did emigrate most of us stayed behind?
Then migrant workers will leave. Just like many Irish people came back to Ireland after the reconstruction of Berlin or building motorways in Britain.That's a very short-sighted view to take. There might not be any problem now but what about when the economy slows down and we'll have thousands of people out of work.
Building workers always follow building booms. London in the 1980s, Berlin in the 1990s and Dublin this decade.Something like 20% of the immigrants are employed in construction. What will happen when the housing boom wears off and these immigrants will have to find other employment.
How will the Irish people be at a disadvantage when the Irish will have the language, the links, the education ...They'll either have to compete with Irish people in which case the Irish will be at a disadvantage,
But they will have paid tax and PRSI. Of course many would return home or work elsewhere, because of a cheaper cost of living.or they'll start claiming the dole, in which case they'll be a huge burden on the taxpayer and they'll start soaking up money that should be spent on our own people.
Because, if you studied economics, you can never get below approximately 3% unemployment, what with people between jobs, part-time workers, structural unemployment etc.Flying wrote:Can you answer me this why in gods green earth do we need to import even 5% of this labour when we have unemployed people here,
Really? Tried surviving on welfare recently?that the Social Welfare system is very inviting
You are saying that people are holding down two jobs and claiming welfare here and in the north at the same time? They musn't have time to breath.and hence these people will generally ( I have been told by plenty of eastern european workers I work with) that the scam is to work for 13 Months and then they can claim all the benifits etc and then work on the double then, which is happening big time, they are doing it in N.I and down here.
We are there already.encourage Irish people who are unemployed to work, we could kill the unemployment numbers to little or nothing if we did.
A million unionists could set up shop in a Dublin flat and demand votes in the morning.New_Departure06 wrote:http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/opinion/Full_Story/did-sg8KEjy2yyuqI.aspVoting rights - Bruton plea worth more consideration ..
RICHARD BRUTON, deputy leader of Fine Gael, has sought to spark a debate on voting rights by suggesting that all foreign nationals living in this country for three years and intending to stay longer should have a right to vote in general elections, whether they take out Irish citizenship or not.0 -
you ignore how many came back to Ireland over the last number of years-why is that? You find it a little anti your position?New_Departure06 wrote:According to the CSO statistics on their website, 17,000 people emigrated from Ireland in 2005 of which 99% were Irish.
Bully for you,you using the royal we aswell?I'm tired of endless romanticisation of "diversity" by the elites and by leftwingers. We already have loads of diversity. Too much diversity though means ghettoisation along French lines. If people coming in are encouraged not to learn English, not to sent whatever children they brought with them to schools with Irish people, then ghettoisation develops because assimilation is being resisted. It is no accident that the country most successful in terms of integrating immigrants - the US - also has a firm policy of assimilation largely driven by state-sponsored patriotism in the schools
yeah they were untill it was closed.Green card holders and illegals today arent...Some mention Ellis Island. That's interesting, because Irish immigrants going to the US were screened for diseases there
We're getting to the nubb of it now I see a rant of nothingness...Yet some of the same people who prate on about our history of emigration to the US, reject emulating what the US did regard newcomers to our shores regarding the policy areas mentioned in this paragraph. They want to have their cake and eat it - on the one hand to extoll the virtues of immigration without learning the lessons abroad of which models of integration have worked and which have not. To even debate these issues evokes cries of "racist/xenophobe" from the PC-brigade, which is well represented on this forum by threats to ban people because of their questioning views on current policy. In PC-ideology, the priority is the avoidance of offense at all costs, even if that means silencing debate on issues that desperately need to be debated to avoid the scenes in France last year being repeated in Ireland in future. PCness is undemocratic and must be resisted.
make up your mind...what it is you are concerned about...A minute ago it was those already in the EU, now its those not yet in... I do detect a certain desperation there,in that you've dismally failed to put up any sort of argument that hold water regarding existing new EU states (apart from your contant irrelevant what if this what if that...)
The countries lifting some or all controls of course are only doing this for the existing new EU states, and have not clarified their intentions regarding Romania and Bulgaria. Indeed Britain has been cagey as to what it is going to do on Romania and Bulgaria.
Read the charter by the way -oh and feel free to back up what you are saying, links wont crash the servers...The Irish govt has strongly hinted at controls on the way for the new EU states. A google search will confirm this
CodswallopI think a realistic and hardheaded approach is needed on this issue instead of stifling debate on a dogooder platform. There is a lot of caricaturing going on on this thread e.g. you are Ireland-for-the-Irish, you are xenophobic, racist etc. That is nonsense. We accept some people coming in - have I called for zero immigration? It just needs to be managed - and cultural factors need to be considered in the equation too not just economic factors. Some people here know the price of everything and the value of nothing!
You're just ranting with nothing other than hot air at this stage.
There was precious little that I saw other than hot air from you already anyway...
I asked you to debate earlier rather than the constant soapboxing and ranting.
This place is not a soap box.
Now no more of that from you please or you will be the newly departed from this forum.
Final warning0 -
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Originally Posted by ISAW
At about that rate (now slowed) the population would double in 30 years. Imagine that!
What do you think the working population should grow at when an aconomy has 6 per cent growth?Macmorris wrote:Like most threads on immigration it didn't take long for the debate to become dominated by the economy.
Read cantab's original post. He didn't mention anything about the economy. The thread is about the growth in the immigrant population and whether or not our government is doing enough to make sure that the growth is in our country's interests.
You would be wrong there. He mentioned PPS numbers. what do you think PPS numbers are used for? They are used by the REvenue for Taxing WORKERS! If you think that people should be argueing that potential workers from other EU countries should be coming here only to sponge off the state well nobody suggested that they should. Especially the EU migrants the vast majority of whom are at work since they came (and I mean I recon 55,000 plus out of 60,000 Poles for a rough example).The open-borders brigade always try to portray immigration as being nothing more than an economic issue when for most people it has far more to do with questions of national identity.
where did I state I wanted "open borders"? and I already showed you that the OP mentioned PPS numbers which are economically linked. If he wanted a "dilution of culture" argument he could have stated that.It's about the kind of country we want to become. Leaving aside how well the economy might be peforming, do we really want to have share our country with hundreds of thousands of foreigners, particularly when our history provides a perfect example of why that might be a bad idea.
well clearly the answer to you question is - YES we DO want to share our country with hundreds of thousands of foreigners since we already are doing that. Mind you if we had a United Ireland tomorrow we would be sharing our country with hundreds of thousands of prople who claim to be British foreigners. The Irish people were asked if they wanted to do this in a recent referendum. the answer was 95 per cent YES.
this is just hysterical! whre is your evidence that Ireland is asking 6 billion people to come to Ireland?That's right, play the guilt card. The Irish emigrated around the world so now we have to let the whole world immigrate here. If we say anything about we'll be seen as ungrateful.There's only one problem with that view. Irish people didn't emigrate around the world. If we emigrated how come we're still here? Would it not be true to say that while alot of Irish people did emigrate most of us stayed behind?
Actually it wouldnt! there are I recon a million first generation (I mean born in Ireland) Irish in London. Maybe 3 million in Britian. that is about 75 per cnet of the population of the Republic. If you add in Austrialia the Us etc. and add in all the other people entitled to Irish citizenship (e.g. second and third generation) then you get to 40 or 50 million quite quickly.
thats just rough figures but the point is cllear MOST people who could claim Irish citizenship or have it already dont live in Ireland.The fact that we're the descendants of the people who stayed behind in Ireland gives us a right to say who we let into our country. We have nothing to feel guilty about.
this is just not true. You are suggesting that if two brothers split up (due to economic hardship in the 1950s say) and if one goes abroad and sends back money for 50 years then the brother who stayed should have a right to stop others (inculding his own brother) from entering Ireland and the brother who left should not have that right. do you not think the brother who stayes might feel a little guilty about such treatment of another Irishman in such circumstances?
Well when is that going to happen? and what about it?That's a very short-sighted view to take. There might not be any problem now but what about when the economy slows down and we'll have thousands of people out of work.
Nope. since they are doing jobs Irish people wont do! The Irish peop0le are doing OTHER jobs. They cant compete in the other jobs since they are not skilled for them.Something like 20% of the immigrants are employed in construction. What will happen when the housing boom wears off and these immigrants will have to find other employment.
They'll either have to compete with Irish people in which case the Irish will be at a disadvantage,
Not likely. they will either leave or find jobs. If they were the dole claiming spongers then 59000 out of 60000 would not be at work now would they?or they'll start claiming the dole, in which case they'll be a huge burden on the taxpayer and they'll start soaking up money that should be spent on our own people.
You think so? What evidence do you have?I think we're already nearing the stage when the immigrants will be entitled to receive welfare payments. That's when the fun should really start.Why don't you kick me out as well while you're at it because I'm not too happy either about the prospect of Irish people becoming an ethnic minority in our own country.
You havent provided any evidence to back up this hysterical claim!0 -
Flying wrote:Can you answer me this why in gods green earth do we need to import even 5% of this labour when we have unemployed people here, why dont we get them employed to fill the gap and keep the money in the economy, I understand a very small precentage of the unemployed can't work but there is plenty of able bodied men and women who should be made do so.
Well some Irish people are lazy. sone get better dole than they would at work. Some are not skilled. some are between jobs. some are students. Some are criminals. There are many reasons why 5 per cent is full employment.The simple matter of fact is putting the "racist" branding most people get with an opinion to one side is, that the Social Welfare system is very inviting and hence these people will generally ( I have been told by plenty of eastern european workers I work with) that the scam is to work for 13 Months and then they can claim all the benifits etc and then work on the double then, which is happening big time, they are doing it in N.I and down here.
the "I have been told" arguement does not work very well here. Try showing how many poles for example are in work and how many are claiming the dole. I think your arguemtn will collapse.
If someone is entitled to welfare then they are entitled to it. Why do you think countries which are economic giantys have great welfare. In fact the US has no national health service andf France has one of the best.But I assume if we had a serious economic downturn then they would leave and goto the next country to do the same.
But they will leave to WORK elsewhere whan the jobs are not here.Also trying to compare irish emmigration to this is silly, when you goto the USA or Oz you get no handouts, you work or strave, I did it and plenty others did, as for the UK it is not as easy to claim benifits there as it is here.
Which is arguing against yourself, as I just pointed out above
what is a "non genuine" refugee. And by the way Asylum seekers and refugees CANT work due to outr law and therefore become a burden on the State not by there own choosing..So my conclusion is yes bring in skilled workers, "Genuine" refugees not the idiots we have nowand also encourage Irish people who are unemployed to work, we could kill the unemployment numbers to little or nothing if we did.
We already have! Did you not notice?
What is your assumption based on? evidence please.With the current influx I would assume the countries infrastruture would not be able to handle it as we are a small country of 4 Million unlike the UK 12 times the population and size0 -
Earthman wrote:you ignore how many came back to Ireland over the last number of years-why is that? You find it a little anti your position?
Bully for you,you using the royal we aswell? yeah they were untill it was closed.Green card holders and illegals today arent... We're getting to the nubb of it now I see a rant of nothingness...
make up your mind...what it is you are concerned about...A minute ago it was those already in the EU, now its those not yet in... I do detect a certain desperation there,in that you've dismally failed to put up any sort of argument that hold water regarding existing new EU states (apart from your contant irrelevant what if this what if that...) Read the charter by the way -oh and feel free to back up what you are saying, links wont crash the servers...
Codswallop
You're just ranting with nothing other than hot air at this stage.
There was precious little that I saw other than hot air from you already anyway...
I asked you to debate earlier rather than the constant soapboxing and ranting.
This place is not a soap box.
Now no more of that from you please or you will be the newly departed from this forum.
Final warning
On the links question:
http://euobserver.com/9/21527The Irish government is expected to deny Bulgarian and Romanian workers free access to its labour market if the countries join the European Union next year, a move in stark contrast to its current approach to workers from central and eastern Europe.
The Irish cabinet is likely to insist on work-permit requirements for the new EU members due to worries over the international economy and misplacement of local workers by east European labourers, reports the Sunday Times.
A government spokesman said it will be decided in the autumn whether labour market access will be granted to Bulgaria and Romania.
He emphasised that the decision will be based on a number of factors, such as the labour market situation and the position taken by other member states...........Czech social affairs minister Zdenek Skromach recently remarked Prague may consider introducing restrictions against Romania and Bulgaria if the "old" member states keep their barriers against the eight former entrants.
On the 17,000 point:
I think "what if" is something that is a reasonable part of political debate. Past returns are no guarantee of future returns.0 -
New Departure from reading your threads or posts I am in agreement, as a new user here and from reading from the sidelines I see the PC Brigade (aka facists) don't want to discuss anything a little to controversial...
You are banging on a brick wall here with these idiots, especially a few moderators here that could not stand or withold a public debate for 5 mins...
Remember they are fools and if you argue with them you will end up going to their level.
I work in a large company where PC is all the rage and the non-irish workers have more say than us and we dare'nt have an Irish opinion so my view is let it back fire on them as I am doing my own thing to put the brakes on what is going on....
So F*ck them pure idiots most likely not living with these people and over zealous college lay abouts !0 -
I've seen no discussion on that topic here.New_Departure06 wrote:
All you have in that article is some comment by an unnamed spokesperson.
In other words useless.
Shooting yourself in the foot then as that link states that emmigration is at its lowest since 1987.On the 17,000 point:
It also states that between 25 and 30% of immigrants are either of Irish nationality or from the UK...
Now lets do some more maths: 20% of 70k means that the number of Irish people coming back to live here is equal to or greater than the number leaving.
Well it might be if you stopped stating your opinion as fact.I think "what if" is something that is a reasonable part of political debate. Past returns are no guarantee of future returns.
Even when pressed for links, the ones you give dont back you up.
Oh and go off and read the bit in the charter aswell about stating opinion as fact...0 -
Earthman wrote:I've seen no discussion on that topic here.
All you have in that article is some comment by an unnamed spokesperson.
In other words useless.
Shooting yourself in the foot then as that link states that emmigration is at its lowest since 1987.
It also states that between 25 and 30% of immigrants are either of Irish nationality or from the UK...
Now lets do some more maths: 20% of 70k means that the number of Irish people coming back to live here is equal to or greater than the number leaving.
Well it might be if you stopped stating your opinion as fact.
Even when pressed for links, the ones you give dont back you up.
Oh and go off and read the bit in the charter aswell about stating opinion as fact...
New Departure I rest my point even if you had say video evidence of an incident they would say the opposite here, if you said the sky was blue they would disagree....Catch my drift...0 -
Flying wrote:New Departure I rest my point even if you had say video evidence of an incident they would say the opposite here, if you said the sky was blue they would disagree....Catch my drift...
2 swallows dont make a summer.Just because you might say what you did there doesnt make supposition/ranting/conjecting (or whatever other methods you like to use) into a fact.
If you want to show a point you must show it.
If something was shown that could stand up that might be a different matter0 -
What does any of the above abuse contribute to the topic.Flying wrote:New Departure from reading your threads or posts I am in agreement, as a new user here and from reading from the sidelines I see the PC Brigade (aka facists) don't want to discuss anything a little to controversial...
You are banging on a brick wall here with these idiots, especially a few moderators here that could not stand or withold a public debate for 5 mins...
Remember they are fools and if you argue with them you will end up going to their level.
I work in a large company where PC is all the rage and the non-irish workers have more say than us and we dare'nt have an Irish opinion so my view is let it back fire on them as I am doing my own thing to put the brakes on what is going on....
So F*ck them pure idiots most likely not living with these people and over zealous college lay abouts !
I know of no students contributing to the this topic.0 -
New_Departure06 wrote:According to the CSO statistics on their website, 17,000 people emigrated from Ireland in 2005 of which 99% were Irish.
Where on there website is this?
this is a fallacy of "proving a negative" coupled with "shifting the burden" You claim it you prove it! dont ask others to prove it is not true.It is possible that some of these left because they were displaced in Ireland by competition from cheap foreign labour. Do I have absolute proof no. But neither do you have absolute proof that displacement is not happening.Indeed the AIB report was unable to categorically rule out that it may be happening in some sectors.
What AIB report? And how can the AIB prove a negative?
Me:Chocolate causes cancer.
You: Prove it.
Me: Prove it doesnt!
so non elites and right wingers are okay to romanticise? How so? the words "hoist" "petard" and "own" spring to mind. You see that is a correct use of sugesting the opposite.I'm tired of endless romanticisation of "diversity" by the elites and by leftwingers.We already have loads of diversity. Too much diversity though means ghettoisation along French lines.
Define diversity. Care to define what "too much diversity" is?If people coming in are encouraged not to learn English, not to sent whatever children they brought with them to schools with Irish people, then ghettoisation develops because assimilation is being resisted.
and whwere is this happening. You seem to claim that 200,000 foreigners have come in . What schools are the children of these 200,000 in that they dont speak English?
By the way the national language is IRISH. what is wrong with an Estonian coming to Irikand and putting a child into a school in the gaelteacht and the child not normally speaking english?It is no accident that the country most successful in terms of integrating immigrants - the US - also has a firm policy of assimilation largely driven by state-sponsored patriotism in the schools e.g. loyalty pledges, singing the national anthem, raising flag over schools.
Actually the Irish have been more sucessfull than that for centuries. You cant tell them apart eventually. the US is more of a "salad bowl" than a "melting pot". I really don't know how you can claim it is the most tsuccessfull in the world at integration. It is run by WASPs and other minorities still do not have equality or parity after 400 years.Some mention Ellis Island. That's interesting, because Irish immigrants going to the US were screened for diseases there - as were immigrants from around the world. Yet some of the same people who prate on about our history of emigration to the US, reject emulating what the US did regard newcomers to our shores regarding the policy areas mentioned in this paragraph.
so do you think a Irish person coming from the US should have to live in a quarantine camp for six months?They want to have their cake and eat it - on the one hand to extoll the virtues of immigration without learning the lessons abroad of which models of integration have worked and which have not.
But you have not shown how US immegration worked have you? Would this be the same US who quarantined Koreans during WWII?To even debate these issues evokes cries of "racist/xenophobe" from the PC-brigade, which is well represented on this forum by threats to ban people because of their questioning views on current policy.
I am quite happy to allow xenophobes to say what they want -as long as they can back it up. Question policy all you want. Even tell me that you hate blacks/arabs/Irish whatever...
But try to justify an opinion and suggest others to act on that opinion is not on! I believe in free speech but you still cant shoutr FIRE in a crowded theater when there is none and expect to get away with that!In PC-ideology, the priority is the avoidance of offense at all costs, even if that means silencing debate on issues that desperately need to be debated to avoid the scenes in France last year being repeated in Ireland in future. PCness is undemocratic and must be resisted.
the point about free speech is not in being able to say what you like. It is about tolerating what you dont like. So tell me all you want how you dislike foreigners or how you think foreigners should not be allowed into Ireland. But expect to support your opinion with evidence. And dont try to evoke hysteria without ANY supporting evidence and expect to get away with it.
So what? what is your point?The countries lifting some or all controls of course are only doing this for the existing new EU states, and have not clarified their intentions regarding Romania and Bulgaria.Indeed Britain has been cagey as to what it is going to do on Romania and Bulgaria. The Irish govt has strongly hinted at controls on the way for the new EU states. A google search will confirm this and I have checked this out.
Great! Bring all that evidence here then and we can discuss it! Dont expect others to do your research for you.FG oppose such controls. Immigrants who went to Britain from Eastern Europe would have come here instead had Britain been unavailable last time. With a combined population of 30 million, and a health-service suffering chronic overcrowding, we need to be cautious on the question of immediately opening our doors to Romania and Bulgaria without clarifying the intentions of other EU states first. There is also the question of language-proficiency in Eastern Europe, where Portuguese and Finnish are not exactly widely understood. A recent poll found that 1% of Poles and 4% of Czechs understand Spanish though.
Finnish? Isnt Finland actually IN Eastern Europe? where does "Eastern" Europe begin? Or is it only countries you dont like?
And dont give me the "Scandanavia" excuse. You already referred to Portugal. Iberia is in Europe.
Great! Support your position with some evidence then!I think a realistic and hardheaded approach is needed on this issue instead of stifling debate on a dogooder platform.There is a lot of caricaturing going on on this thread e.g. you are Ireland-for-the-Irish, you are xenophobic, racist etc.
I dont care iof you ARE racist! If your arguments are correct then they should stand on their own in spite of your personal beliefs. Somehow all anyone else is seeing from you ARE personal beliefs and not hard evidence.That is nonsense. We accept some people coming in - have I called for zero immigration? It just needs to be managed - and cultural factors need to be considered in the equation too not just economic factors. Some people here know the price of everything and the value of nothing!
What cultural factors?
What economic factors?0 -
New_Departure06 wrote:According to the CSO statistics on their website, 17,000 people emigrated from Ireland in 2005 of which 99% were Irish. It is possible that some of these left because they were displaced in Ireland by competition from cheap foreign labour.
Lets say you're right, for argument's sake. What's the problem? They choose to leave, and one can assume that they're heading somewhere there's a better deal for them. You'd prefer a system where they couldn't do this? Before answering, bear in mind that when an economic down-turn comes, it will be to our nation's distinct advantage for people in such a position to have the freedom to move elsewhere to better their lot.
Its not a simple one-way trade, uness one would argue that we should be allowed do it when its to our advantage, but that it should on no account be allowed to be done to us.
This is not as trivial a point as it seems. We "exported" 16,830-ish Irish people in 2005 when our economy is booming. We've no data on how that splits down. Anecdotally speaking I can say of the dozen or so Irish people I know who left Ireland to work abroad (myself included), every single one of us left a job behind us, but that proves nothing. So lets take the patently absurd position that all of them were displaced.
Now, if an economic downturn occurred, what would happen to that figure? I think we can at least agree that it certainly wouldn't decrease. But if one favours a "closed-borders" view (fully closed / mostly closed / closed unless we want your skills, whatever) , then it should be expected that these people should equally have nowhere to go. So they should stay in Ireland, and be a burden on the state - just what we need when in an economic downturn. At least one post here suggested making the unemployed work at the moment, which would implicitly require forcing at least some of them to move to wherever the work was. So its okay to force people to move to work within a nation's borders, but anathema to suggest that they be allowed to do so across borders....unless, I'm willing to guess, its into any nation except Ireland.
Our economic upturn, in part, was due to how bad a shape we were in when it all turned around. We were a cheap workforce, particularly for the skills we had (but apparently its ok as long as you only let the business move around and not the workers...another day's discussion).
The problem with success is that you expect rewards from it, and that equates to one simple thing - higher salaries. Thus the economy becomes gradually less competetive. And therein lies the crunch. Ultimately, "Ireland for the Irish" would be faced with a number of ugly choices, all of which basically equate to the same horrors that they seem to suggest are the economic impact that these immigrant workers will ultimately have.
Too much mishandled diversity, perhaps. A significant factor in mishandling appears to be the lack of acceptance by the indigenous populace. So your objections would seem to coincide with the problem you are warning against. Its almost as if you're trying to invite the very problem that you're saying the lefties and intellectuals are overlooking, whatever about the rest of us. Its a strange strategy: "Look, I can help create a problem that you haven't considered". Surely the thing to do is not cause the problem - to argue in favour of acceptance and against prejudice? Y'know...like those lefties and intellectuals are doing?Too much diversity though means ghettoisation along French lines.
Did I miss something? Is someone suggesting that encouraging people to not learn English is a good idea? Do you mean the more common refusal to require a preknowledge of English, perhaps?If people coming in are encouraged not to learn English,
I agree, but amn't sure if - like me - you'd be of the opinion that this applies to both sides in the debate. After all, I'm sure both sides feel they are in the right.I think a realistic and hardheaded approach is needed on this issue instead of stifling debate on a dogooder platform.
Or did you mean that to do good isn't always the right thing to do, and sometimes just downright selfishness is fine (as long as its not economic).
lefties, intellectuals, dogooders, and then this. I spot a degree of inconsistency, as with other aspects of your argument.There is a lot of caricaturing going on on this thread
What's that leftie-intellectual-dogooder tactic you were complaining about again? Oh yeah....caricaturing. That was it. You're right. We could do without it - it adds nothing. What do you say?Some people here know the price of everything and the value of nothing!
Taking the point more seriously....those people you're denigrating....most of them would be Irish, at a guess. What makes your wants of more importance than theirs? Is it not their country as much as yours?
jc0 -
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Flying wrote:New Departure from reading your threads or posts I am in agreement, as a new user here and from reading from the sidelines I see the PC Brigade (aka facists) don't want to discuss anything a little to controversial...
You are banging on a brick wall here with these idiots, especially a few moderators here that could not stand or withold a public debate for 5 mins...
Remember they are fools and if you argue with them you will end up going to their level.
I work in a large company where PC is all the rage and the non-irish workers have more say than us and we dare'nt have an Irish opinion so my view is let it back fire on them as I am doing my own thing to put the brakes on what is going on....
So F*ck them pure idiots most likely not living with these people and over zealous college lay abouts !
Bye bye now
Dont come back.0 -
Let me get this straight. Based upon a single statistic you have extrapolated a reason for it without any further evidence or indicators and are even seemingly proud to admit that your theory cannot be backed up?New_Departure06 wrote:According to the CSO statistics on their website, 17,000 people emigrated from Ireland in 2005 of which 99% were Irish. It is possible that some of these left because they were displaced in Ireland by competition from cheap foreign labour. Do I have absolute proof no. But neither do you have absolute proof that displacement is not happening. Indeed the AIB report was unable to categorically rule out that it may be happening in some sectors.
Are you on medication?
Seriously, I’ve seen you post on numerous threads at this stage making all sorts of wild accusations of one type or another without any form of evidence, or sometimes argument, to back them up. Do you realize that the reaction you’re getting here is not due to you having politically incorrect views, as many (myself included) will often make similarly unpopular arguments, but because their lack of credibility makes you look like a crank?
Please back up your arguments; no one’s going to take you seriously otherwise. That’s genuine advice. Seriously.0 -
Oddly enough there is a lot of compatibility between Finnish and Estonian. And there are a lot of similarities between Spanish and Portugese.There is also the question of language-proficiency in Eastern Europe, where Portuguese and Finnish are not exactly widely understood. A recent poll found that 1% of Poles and 4% of Czechs understand Spanish though.
But fundamentally people on continental Europe tend to be a lot less lazy than us when it comes to learning languages.0 -
I hope boards.ie does not morph into Indymedia where dissenting posters are regularly banned.But fundamentally people on continental Europe tend to be a lot less lazy than us when it comes to learning languages.
Major languages yes. Finnish is not such (a second language only in Estonia). Nor Portuguese (in Europe at least) not Greek. The main second languages of Eastern Europe are English, German and French and then Spanish.Let me get this straight. Based upon a single statistic you have extrapolated a reason for it without any further evidence or indicators and are even seemingly proud to admit that your theory cannot be backed up?
Are you on medication?
Seriously, I’ve seen you post on numerous threads at this stage making all sorts of wild accusations of one type or another without any form of evidence, or sometimes argument, to back them up. Do you realize that the reaction you’re getting here is not due to you having politically incorrect views, as many (myself included) will often make similarly unpopular arguments, but because their lack of credibility makes you look like a crank?
Please back up your arguments; no one’s going to take you seriously otherwise. That’s genuine advice. Seriously.
Am I being asked to provide absolute proof? I cannot do that in many cases. No-one can! In a court-case, many cases would collapse if that standard were used.Too much mishandled diversity, perhaps. A significant factor in mishandling appears to be the lack of acceptance by the indigenous populace. So your objections would seem to coincide with the problem you are warning against. Its almost as if you're trying to invite the very problem that you're saying the lefties and intellectuals are overlooking, whatever about the rest of us. Its a strange strategy: "Look, I can help create a problem that you haven't considered". Surely the thing to do is not cause the problem - to argue in favour of acceptance and against prejudice? Y'know...like those lefties and intellectuals are doing?
But don't you agree that acceptance is a 2-way street?0 -
Users are banned for abuse. I'm sorry if you can't live with that. Would you prefer everything disintegrated into "So F*ck them pure idiots".New_Departure06 wrote:I hope boards.ie does not morph into Indymedia where dissenting posters are regularly banned.
Hey, help us.New_Departure06 wrote:Am I being asked to provide absolute proof?0 -
Nah we have charters for every board.New_Departure06 wrote:I hope boards.ie does not morph into Indymedia where dissenting posters are regularly banned.
But no doubt you already know that... as I've constantly had to remind you and you've constantly ignored this.
Now lets see:
2 weeks for opinion being posted as fact despite contantly being asked not to do this
And 2 weeks for trolling
Terms to run consecutively.
Banned for one month0 -
New_Departure06 wrote:I hope boards.ie does not morph into Indymedia where dissenting posters are regularly banned.
If that was the case I would be gone long ago! The point is you have to back up what you say and you have to do it by attacking the argument and not the person making the argument.Major languages yes. Finnish is not such (a second language only in Estonia). Nor Portuguese (in Europe at least) not Greek. The main second languages of Eastern Europe are English, German and French and then Spanish.
So what? his point was that Irish people are more reticent about learning languages than continental Europrans.Am I being asked to provide absolute proof? I cannot do that in many cases. No-one can! In a court-case, many cases would collapse if that standard were used.
No you are not being asked to provide absolute proof. But if you can then fine please do so. The problem is you havent provided ANY proof! Just opinion.
In a civil case it is decided on the balance of evidence. You havent provided ANY. so who do you think would win? In a criminal case you have to assume innocence and prove guilt using evidence. This is more like the discussion in hand. Nobody has to prove they are not a criminal and nobody has to prove that foreigners are not harmful. YOU have to prove that they ARE with EVIDENCE. Care to do so?But don't you agree that acceptance is a 2-way street?
this is more of the same. You are shifting the burden of evidence onto others. If YOU claim something then YOU prove it! I am quite prepared to tolerate your unproven opinion but when you dress it up as fact you have to support it.0 -
I've been a little (not a lot, just a little) busy lately with stuff in the real world so I dislike dropping in here with a big stick in my hand but I'm going to do it anyway as it appears to be desirable.
The politics board (and most of boards.ie in general) is a discusion board. Not a soapbox board, not a whiney board and certainly not a board for views to be pushed without reasonable requested backup for those views. That's mentioned in the rules/guidelines for posting. Now that I've mentioned that I'd like to remind posters (especially those that purport to be new posters) that there is an entire thread created as a sticky on the main board that contains the rough guidelines for posting. Reading them isn't merely desirable, it's basically essential to the point of compulsory. As I've said before, here and elsewhere, I'm not anti- anything except anti-idiocy, certainly while acting as either a mod on this board or an s-mod on the site in general. I am pretty fervent about my anti-idiocy stance though and I don't have a problem handing out local bans from this board or bans from the entire site if I deem them necessary.
Additionally the politics board isn't the place to be discussing the politics board. There's a feedback forum and a helpdesk forum where such discussion is welcomed. That's a system that is in place to stop this board disappearing up its own recursive botty, which people who tend to use the board for its purpose (i.e. discussion rather than poor showboating) doubtless appreciate.
This isn't a censorship notice but believe me it's an anti-plonker notice.
If you read this, thanks for your time. Please carry on. Productively.0 -
New_Departure06 wrote:But don't you agree that acceptance is a 2-way street?
Yes, I do. However, I don't believe its a 2-way street that we must insist the immigrants walk down first.
We cannot expect people moving to a nation where large numbers of the indigenous population are hostile to them (openly, or just in the opinions they anonymously voice in the pub, the taxi, online, etc.) to just smile and say that they're just happy to be here and don't mind the persecution they're suffering just for turning up.
That would be dumb.
We have to expect a settling-in period. We have to expect issues to arise from both sides, and that those issues will neither disappear painlessly every time, nor be insurmountable. We must even expect that some of the issues will be entirely our fault, and have nothing to do with the imigrants (other than being the catalyst).
Looking at the situation and deciding that all is not rosy, the immigrants are therefore to blame, and the solution is to have less of them and treat them worse.....that is not the right way to go. Indeed, its not a 2-way street at all.
So yes, I believe it should be a two-way street, but do not accept that this puts any onus of precedence on the immigrants. Rather, I believe that predominantly it is up to us to make the first move.
Consider when a nice, white, Irish family moves into a nice, white Irish neighbourhood. Which way do things work - is it considered their job to go round to all the neighbours and say "Hi, I'm Joe and I've moved in to number 27", or would you expect teh settled neighbours to at least (in passing) say "Hi. Welcome to our neighbourhood. We hope you like it here". Both can happen, but generally, I'd expect the latter.
What we see in Ireland, however, is more a case of "Who the hell are you, and why is your car painted yellow. Don't you know everyone in this neighbourhood drives blue or red cars. Now sit down, shut up, make no trouble, and we'll have no issue with you. Oh, and we'd like you to paint your car. "
This seems to be often followed by some of the original neighbourhood then sitting over their morning coffee, complaining about those damned blow-ins and their damned yellow car, and how ignorant they are because they haven't made the effort to fit in.0 -
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MontgomeryClift wrote:The government claimed that there would be only a 'trickle' of immigrants from the EU accession countries. 10% of the population in 3 years is obviously not a trickle so either
I question you premise so therefore anything which flows from that is dead in the water (but I might as well criticise them as well).
What evidence do you have to support your clearly nonsensical claim that the population of Ireland has increased by ten per cent in three years?
Unsupported conspiracy theory and implausable. If the government really knew the future why would they lie since they know that they would be lower in the opinion polls at a time when such figures came out (and YOU havent produced those figures since they do not exist)a) They knew this would happen and lied to quash fears about mass immigration or
they clearly stated we needed more workers and that most of the ones we would get would not be taking jobs off Irish people unless it was a job someone Irish didnt want to do.b) They didn't foresee the mass immigration we have now.
By the way your "they either knew or didnt know" method is tantamount to a "damned if you do and damned if you dont
I think i see where this is going. What convinces you that Ireland is economically politically or socially the same as Germany or France?Or we could have economic growth and massive immigration like France or Germany and then have the same recession, double digit unemployment, racial segregation and riots that they've had.0
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