Drama at the Cathedral

clonycavanman

This is getting huge publicity on the British television news services and I would expect their satellite and world-wide services. The outcome will contribute to how we are perceived abroad; are we a state where the rule of law is respected? or a wavering indecisive society whose laws should always be flouted , as an exception will be made for the determined.

I disagree

I am delighted at this outcome and I hope that the faith of these people is decided in a fair manner as if this attempt at emotional blackmail never took place. No other country could criticise the actions of this state in relation to that event.

coolhandluke

Thank god for mickey McDowell,while i would disagree with him on many issues he is about the only politician in the entire Dail with the balls to stand up to these free loading wasters.They certainly stuck him in the right department,lesser men would have buckled under the usual leftie pressure groups.Go mickey go !.

seamus

clonycavanman wrote:

This is getting huge publicity on the British television news services and I would expect their satellite and world-wide services. The outcome will contribute to how we are perceived abroad; are we a state where the rule of law is respected? or a wavering indecisive society whose laws should always be flouted , as an exception will be made for the determined.

I have thought about this, and even if some countries will critiscise about the death of some refugees, it will be short-lived, BBC worldwide be damned.

I don't like MacDowell, but the last thing he will be known as is an Afghan killer. Even if they all die, it will be forgotten about in a few months. Sometimes politicians can't win. They just have to stick to their guns and ride the wave. He has quite a backing from the proletariat.

Ruu_Old

Fair play to him for standing by his statements. The laws are there for a reason. The Afghans had their chance in line. Im happy with the outcome, should have come much sooner though.

New_Departure06

My my, what have we here in the Sunday Indo?

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1617866&issue_id=14075

Meanwhile, it has been learned that one of the asylum seekers has told the authorities here that he raped and killed when he was a member of the Taliban senior command.

He is understood to have stated on his written application for asylum that he raped several women and was involved in several killings. This has been put forward by the man as a reason why he is fearful of returning toAfghanistan.

A second member of the group has also admitted to having an operational role as a senior commander of the Taliban.

He has admitted to having an "association" with the former Afghan security services, which were involved in the interrogation and torture of many people.

Where does that leave the dogooders who wanted to let them stay?

Ruu_Old

They should be sent back to be put on trial if they were part of the Taliban, only fair. Plenty more will no doubt surface about this lot.

New_Departure06

Residents against Realism.

Ruu

Ruu wrote:

They should be sent back to be put on trial if they were part of the Taliban, only fair.

In fairness, if we didn't believe that they genuinely faced persecution, why are we all so quick to believe a report carried in the Sindo that two were rapists? Even if set out in their applications, those documents are hardly known for containing understatements.

Don't get me wrong, I was in favour of their removal, but I take the rapist angle with a pinch of salt frankly.

aligator_am

I think they should have been launched right from the get go for entering the country illeagaly. Now that they've been remanded on bail and are being held in hostels what's the odds that some or all of them scarper? I also think it's interesting that I saw their "leader" being quoted as saying that "we came to this holy place to seek justice" yeah? is that the same type of justice that you enforced when you were in the taliban? and if you're muslim (I'm assuming they were) then why didn't you stage your little protest in the mosque on south circular road?

The funniest part in all this is the gang of dogooders that were all protesting outside the place supporting them, I notice that they piped down when the hunger strikers threatened to off themselves, funny that isn't it?

I also think it's pretty nuts that there was a doctor and 2 nurses onsite 24 hours a day, in case any of them were injured, and yet there's how many people on trollies in hospitals? how long do you have to wait to be seen? if that's the case then the whole country should go on hunger strike, you'd been seen in the A+E in a flash! lol

aligator_am

aligator_am wrote:

I also think it's pretty nuts that there was a doctor and 2 nurses onsite 24 hours a day, in case any of them were injured, and yet there's how many people on trollies in hospitals? how long do you have to wait to be seen? if that's the case then the whole country should go on hunger strike, you'd been seen in the A+E in a flash! lol

Ah Jaysus, talk about red herrings. Next thing you'll be giving out about the stretcher bearers at GAA games who could be better employed in A&E departments...

Flying

Can they just not return them to the first safe country they came from and members of the Taliban to shannon they yanks have a nice plane for them going to GTO were the belong....:D

aligator_am

Deleted User wrote:

Ah Jaysus, talk about red herrings. Next thing you'll be giving out about the stretcher bearers at GAA games who could be better employed in A&E departments...

Fair point but St.James' hospital is about a 5 minute drive from the cathederal, wouldn't it have made more sense to have the doctors treating people in the hospital then if there was an emergency with the hunger strikers the medical services could have been sent almost immediately.

Parsley

Well this is quite the ranting, judgemental, and downright mean thread ye've got here.

At the end of the day, you've got desperate 40 human beings who are convinced their lives depend on staying here. They are so convinced of the danger they face that they are prepared to risk death here (Ireland) in order to avoid the certainty of it over there (Afghanistan).

Your attitude disgusts me. Two of them are involved in the Taliban and you label the entire group as 'spongers' and terrorists. How dare you pass judgement on the other 38 people, of whom you know nothing? Several of the teenagers were interviewed in yesterday's Times and all were terrified of being sent home; their classmates stood by them.

The callous way in which these desperate and frightened people are being treated makes me ashamed to be Irish. You judgemental, unchristian f**kers.

Parsley

Parsley wrote:

Well this is quite the ranting, judgemental, and downright mean thread ye've got here...
...
...
The callous way in which these desperate and frightened people are being treated makes me ashamed to be Irish. You judgemental, unchristian f**kers.

Agree with much of what you say, though am of the opinion that the Government had to take the line they did and acted correctly.

What I can't understand is the amount of gloating over it, can people not at least respect the plight of some of the group, say the younger ones?

New_Departure06

Deleted User wrote:

Agree with much of what you say, though am of the opinion that the Government had to take the line they did and acted correctly.

What I can't understand is the amount of gloating over it, can people not at least respect the plight of some of the group, say the younger ones?

I think after so many years of this sympathy-fatigue was inevitable. The extreme tactics undertaken here were in very poor taste, looking like a copycat to the Belgian and French situations.

The callous way in which these desperate and frightened people are being treated makes me ashamed to be Irish. You judgemental, unchristian f**kers.

Do we need religion anyway? Look at the abuse scandals.

Parsley

Deleted User wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I was in favour of their removal....

Why? Are they not entitled to protest, this being a democracy?

Alligator_am wrote:

is that the same type of justice that you enforced when you were in the taliban?

So they're all in the Taliban now?

ruu wrote:

The Afghans had their chance in line

So, they had their chance, they should all go home and die, is that it?

I disagree wrote:

I...hope that the faith of these people is decided in a fair manner as if this attempt at emotional blackmail never took place.

Emotional blackmail? Since when is what is effectively pleading for your life emotional blackmail?

coolhandluke wrote:

Thank god for mickey McDowell,while i would disagree with him on many issues he is about the only politician in the entire Dail with the balls to stand up to these free loading wasters.

Free loading wasters... They're demanding that you don't send them to their deaths, away from the homes they've established, and they're free loading wasters? Where would you possibly get that from? What do you know about them? What possible justification do you have for that preposterous slur?

Were the Jews who sought refuge in America in the 30's freeloading wasters?
The Irish who fled the famine, the penal laws and poverty?


Never have i encountered such judgemental, prejudiced, uncharitable slurs.

New_Departure06

Emotional blackmail? Since when is what is effectively pleading for your life emotional blackmail?

We have never deported anyone to Afghanisatan. Those Afghans deported were sent back to another EU state under the Dublin II Regulations.

Parsley

New_Departure06 wrote:

The extreme tactics undertaken here were in very poor taste...

Well i'm sure when the day comes that you are pleading for your life that you'll recall to do it in a tasteful manner.

Do we need religion anyway? Look at the abuse scandals.

I'm an aetheist. I meant unchristian in the sense of being judgemental, unkind and callous rather than being compassionate, welcoming and giving benefit of the doubt.

New_Departure06

Well i'm sure when the day comes that you are pleading for your life that you'll recall to do it in a tasteful manner...I'm an aetheist. I meant unchristian in the sense of being judgemental, unkind and callous rather than being compassionate, welcoming and giving benefit of the doubt.

I don't remember christianity being very "welcoming" to Pagan communities in Europe when they were being hunted and persecuted by the new dominant christian authorities.

Another important point is that none of these men has actually had a deportation order served against them. They are protesting against a hypothetical. To grant their demands would be unfair to those who followed the proper channels.

Parsley

New_Departure06 wrote:

We have never deported anyone to Afghanisatan. Those Afghans deported were sent back to another EU state under the Dublin II Regulations.

I never said we did. What Afghans?

I was referring the fact that the men in the cathederal had been denied asylum and believed they would be killed if deported to Afghanistan, which would be the normal follow up to being denied asylum.

jpboyne

parsley,

i know what your saying, but the hard line is if you conceed to them, you will refugees from every country trying to pull that stunt. theres a line and theres a process, they didnt succeed.

Parsley

New_Departure06 wrote:

I don't remember christianity being very "welcoming" to Pagan communities in Europe when they were being hunted and persecuted by the new dominant christian authorities.

That has nothing at all to do with anything. Christ was welcoming, what some of his followers did in the middle ages or at any other time is irrelevant both to my reference to christian attributes and to this entire discussion.

New_Departure06 wrote:

Another important point is that none of these men has actually had a deportation order served against them. They are protesting against a hypothetical.

No, they were denied asylum. Which generally results in (decidedly unhypothetical) deportation. Appeals are almost never granted.

New_Departure06 wrote:

To grant their demands would be unfair to those who followed the proper channels.

Not to grant them would be considerably more than unfair. It would put people- including eight children- in mortal danger.

Parsley

jpboyne wrote:

parsley,

i know what your saying, but the hard line is if you conceed to them, you will refugees from every country trying to pull that stunt. theres a line and theres a process, they didnt succeed.

A process that treats all applicants as liars (for instance one of the teenagers was refused because he didn't have death certificates for his parents, who had been murdered by a warlordand. Aside from the absurdity that someone fleeing in terror should remember to bring his parents' death certs, death certs aren't issued in rural afghanistan anyway.) and describes the terror and warlordism in Afghanistan as 'disturbances' is a farcical and unfair one.

ChityWest

Parsley wrote:

A process that treats all applicants as liars

Does that mean we should believe everyone ?

Or do you agree we have the right to be a tad sceptical when reviewing murderers, rapists and the like when they want the Irish state to offer them asylum.

Parsley

ChityWest wrote:

Does that mean we should believe everyone ?

I'm not saying we should believe everyone, just that we consider that a refugee is hardly going to have a box of documents certifying his or her oppression, suffering or risk.

ChityWest wrote:

Or do you agree we have the right to be a tad sceptical when reviewing murderers, rapists and the like when they want the Irish state to offer them asylum.

Are you saying that we should refuse everyone in case they're a murderer or rapist? Obviously if they are we arrest them. That's a completely separate issue to what i was talking about, ie that people who are in genuine danger are being refused asylum because they don't have the paperwork to prove it.

New_Departure06

Not to grant them would be considerably more than unfair. It would put people- including eight children- in mortal danger.

We have never deported anyone to Afghanistan but the Dublin Convention allows us to deport them to a previous EU state of entry. The EU's Eurodac fingerprint database allows comparisons to be made with applicants in other EU states to see if they have made asylum-claims in previous EU states.

If these circumstances were to pertain for these Afghans, then we could send them back to another EU state where their lives would be safe. I understand this has already happened in other Afghan cases. The first safe EU country principle must be upheld.

Parsley

New_Departure06 wrote:

We have never deported anyone to Afghanistan but the Dublin Convention allows us to deport them to a previous EU state of entry. The EU's Eurodac fingerprint database allows comparisons to be made with applicants in other EU states to see if they have made asylum-claims in previous EU states.

If these circumstances were to pertain for these Afghans, then we could send them back to another EU state where their lives would be safe. I understand this has already happened in other Afghan cases. The first safe EU country principle must be upheld.

I'm a bit lost here. For a start, what if not all of them have a previous EU state of entry? Do you even know if any of the Afghans in question do? If not, then what's the relevance of this?

New_Departure06

Parsley wrote:

I'm a bit lost here. For a start, what if not all of them have a previous EU state of entry? Do you even know if any of the Afghans in question do? If not, then what's the relevance of this?

Proximity and the absence of direct-flights would strongly weigh against this.

Parsley

New_Departure06 wrote:

Proximity and the absence of direct-flights would strongly weigh against this.

Well i don't know. I'm just outraged about how the asylum system treated them and how the first page of this thread was a judging-fest that branded them terrorists, who should give up and go home and die cos their application for asylum was refused. At the end of the day, it's forty very desperate people looking for help.

New_Departure06

Parsley wrote:

Well i don't know. I'm just outraged about how the asylum system treated them and how the first page of this thread was a judging-fest that branded them terrorists, who should give up and go home and die cos their application for asylum was refused. At the end of the day, it's forty very desperate people looking for help.

The UNHCR representative says our asylum-system is fair.

The asylum-system is not intended to be a holiday camp. Claiming to be in danger does not equate to being in danger.