Are United a Team in decline

tred

Now that MAN U have lost there top Scorer, and no sign of a replacment yet, are they possibly a team that will suffer next season. Giggs now is getting Older, and a lot of pressure on Rooney on his own. Even if they do buy a striker it might take 1/2 the season before they settle in?.

Big Nelly

tred wrote:

Now that MAN U have lost there top Scorer, and no sign of a replacment yet, are they possibly a team that will suffer next season. Giggs now is getting Older, and a lot of pressure on Rooney on his own. Even if they do buy a striker it might take 1/2 the season before they settle in?.

This has been discussed to death, no they arnt and when did the lose there top Scorer, last I heard he hadn't left and his last interview he said he could be there next season

tred

Big Nelly wrote:

This has been discussed to death, no they arnt and when did the lose there top Scorer, last I heard he hadn't left and his last interview he said he could be there next season

Didnt see any other threads on it. Even if hes there next season, hes there because they either wont sell him, or wont buy out his contract. How can he paly with heart again after being dumped out on top of his head last game of season and then not allowed to play in Roys testamonial when both are well known to be friends. I think myself hes a big loss as much as he annoys the head off me hes a proven goal scorer.

Big Nelly

tred wrote:

Didnt see any other threads on it. Even if hes there next season, hes there because they either wont sell him, or wont buy out his contract. How can he paly with heart again after being dumped out on top of his head last game of season and then not allowed to play in Roys testamonial when both are well known to be friends. I think myself hes a big loss as much as he annoys the head off me hes a proven goal scorer.

Just actually read the title of this thread, it aint worth it replying to someone who doesn't even know proper english. Yeah Utd are dead and gone!!

David19

I would say that United's so called decline has already happened. I can't see them falling out of the top four in the next 5-10 years. They can only improve IMO. Whether they will or not remains to be seen.

tred

Big Nelly wrote:

Just actually read the title of this thread, it aint worth it replying to someone who doesn't even know proper english. Yeah Utd are dead and gone!!

Ara dont bother so. Plenty more here that might add to a nice civil discussion about it. Just now that Henry is signed up for 4 years, thought it might be a change of post content....

tred

David19 wrote:

I would say that United's so called decline has already happened. I can't see them falling out of the top four in the next 5-10 years. They can only improve IMO. Whether they will or not remains to be seen.

This is it, u see. More than likely they will do well again next season,. but the priemership needs all teams at their best to challenge chelsea, and wtih United losing RVN, i dont see them at there best for at least 2 years when they blood in another striker.

kippy

Oh yeah-the are definetly in decline. Relegation material next season-
They have declined a fair bit since a few seasons ago-next season is the one that they reclaim the premiership crown.
Doesnt really matter that Van Nist may not be there next season-United have cover-hes a moany fecker anyway.
Giggs and scholes have been past it for a long time if you ask me-cover is coming in and available.
United have been in decline a long time-but I think they have turned the corner.
Relegated next season.
Kippy

Iago

Yes, Yes they are.

In fact I fully believe that they will be relegated within the next 3 seasons. Van the man will be gone to Inter before the end of the summer, ronaldo will sign for real madrid, if not this summer certainly next. Rooney will end up at Arsenal and ferguson will be gone before the end of next season.

by that time they'll have been dumped out of the champions league after losing 4-0 away to brondby and only managing a 0-0 draw with az alkamar in their last home game when only a win would get them through.

Knocked out of the league cup in the 3rd round by gillingham after fielding a junior side and paying the price. Out of the FA cup in the 5th round when jason roberts run riot in a determined wigan side.

finally finishing 7th in the league and out of europe for the first time in 15 years, leading to fergie stepping down, queiroz taking over. Scholes, Giggs, & Van der Sar will all retire. Queiroz will top the team up with portugese starlets, and mid table mediocrity will follow.

It'll be back to hoping for a league cup triumph and the only league games that matter will be beating the pool and chelsea as they dominate for the next 5-10 years.

you heard it here first folks..

RE*AC*TOR

Its hard to say really. It cetainly looked like they might be in decline earlier in the season - but they have come along quite well since.

I would be worried if I were a manyoo fan at the situation with RVN. He has been consitently their best striker for a few years now. His contribution can't go unnoticed.

I still reckon midfield is their problem area though.

Sure we'll see. Could be some interesting signings over the summer and people will be saying manyoo are back etc.

jobonar

As a United fan i think they are coming out of there decline(last 2 seasons) IMO. although i do believe it will be 2008/2009 season before we are back as serious contenders.

we'll bring in a couple of midfileders and possibly a striker(depending on RVN situation) this year and assuming the right people are bought we have a young team that can only get better and give them a season together to adjust. i think the future is bright for this team...

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

super_furry

ziggy67 wrote:

Yes Utd are in decline, you only have to look at the fact that they haven't won the league in 3 years & their performances in Europe to see that.

They're certainly not the team they were and have been overtaken by the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal, who have all enjoyed much more success than United over the last two years. Their midfield needs replacing - Keane is gone, Giggs is no longer the force he was, Scholes hasn't been able to do it over the last few seasons and O'Shea is out of his depth.

However, their league form in the second half of the season would leave supporters reason's to be optimistic.

Atlas_IRL

didnt their youth team just do the domestic treble?

didnt they just finish the league on a points tally that would have won most premiership league?

didnt they just finish a place ahead of last season?

all because their in decline.....

fade2black

No.

RE*AC*TOR

Atlas_IRL wrote:

didnt their youth team just do the domestic treble?

did they? Liverpool won the FA Youth Cup.

Atlas_IRL

http://www.manutd.com/news/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=327640&itype=466&icategoryid=624

the reserves sorry

dirkey_wynne

super_furry wrote:

They're certainly not the team they were and have been overtaken by the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal, who have all enjoyed much more success than United over the last two years. Their midfield needs replacing - Keane is gone, Giggs is no longer the force he was, Scholes hasn't been able to do it over the last few seasons and O'Shea is out of his depth.

However, their league form in the second half of the season would leave supporters reason's to be optimistic.

Utd haven't been overtaken by Liverpool nor Arsenal. A teams true worth is shown by it's league position, after 38 games. There, luck, bad refereeing decisions etc even themselves out over the course of the season. Utd finished 2nd. Utd therefore, are the 2nd best team in the league.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

tred

dirkey_wynne wrote:

Utd haven't been overtaken by Liverpool nor Chelsea. A teams true worth is shown by it's league position, after 38 games. There, luck, bad refereeing decisions etc even themselves out over the course of the season. Utd finished 2nd. Utd therefore, are the 2nd best team in the league.

That is true. But if you take RVN out of that equation and lose your top goal scorer, then is it feasable to expect to achieve the same next season. Thats what I am thinking about. Ferguson despite all his critics is well able to motivate players, but i think hes losing a lot of experience very quickly. We dont know yet if Scholes has fully recovered from his eye problem as well.

5starpool

A lot of very sensitive United fans in here!!!!

My opinion is that United are not the team they were. I know their (note the spelling people!!!) points total in 05/06 was an improvement on last season, but the last couple of years have seen a widening of the gap in general between the top few and the rest so points tally alone is not the only yardstick we should measure this by.

As for their players, their squad is not near what it was:

Giggs - getting on
Scholes - past it
Fletcher - not good enough
Smith - not a midfielder, not good enough as a striker
Ronaldo - poser, and one trick pony
Van Nistelrooy - out the door
Rossi - unproven so far
O'Shea - not good enough
Silvestre - not good enough
Park - Ordinary

There are still some class players at United and any team with Rooney cannot be discounted, but to say they are still at the peak of their prowess is wrong, and people making sarky 'yeah, relegation material' responses are essentially saying this, is incorrect.

The other option here is that United have not declined, they have just stood still while others caught up (Liverpool) or overtook them (Chelsea).

dirkey_wynne

ziggy67 wrote:

I take it you mean Arsenal not Chelsea????

Lol, good spot! Post edited.

RE*AC*TOR

Well you had a question mark on all your other points as well.

That suggested to me they were rhetorical questions. I didn't realise you were looking for answers. In that case...

Atlas_IRL wrote:

didnt their youth team just do the domestic treble?

No, I don't think they won anything.

Atlas_IRL wrote:

didnt they just finish the league on a points tally that would have won most premiership league?

Well they would have fiished 2nd last year with that points total. Actually 3rd because Arsenal had the same points and a much better goal difference.

The year before that 2nd as well.

But the year before that they would have been joint 1st (with themselves), although with a smaller goal difference.

Atlas_IRL wrote:

didnt they just finish a place ahead of last season?

yes

dirkey_wynne

5starpool wrote:

As for their players, their squad is not near what it was:

Giggs - getting on
Scholes - past it
Fletcher - not good enough
Smith - not a midfielder, not good enough as a striker
Ronaldo - poser, and one trick pony
Van Nistelrooy - out the door
Rossi - unproven so far
O'Shea - not good enough
Silvestre - not good enough
Park - Ordinary

There are still some class players at United and any team with Rooney cannot be discounted, but to say they are still at the peak of their prowess is wrong, and people making sarky 'yeah, relegation material' responses are essentially saying this, is incorrect.

The other option here is that United have not declined, they have just stood still while others caught up (Liverpool) or overtook them (Chelsea).

I agree about the sarky comments, I think there's no need for them as a Utd fan. Personally though, I think we have been in decline, but I think we're regrouping. Of the players mentioned above, I disagree on a couple. Park will prove to be a fine player, most regular Utd watchers think he should start. Bundles of energy and involves himself ina high proportion of goals to games played. Smith is easily good enough as a sub striker, better than any striker for instance which Liverpool have, and I'd rate him hiigher than a couple of the Arsenal boys, though I haven't seen Adebayor enough to properly judge I guess. Ronaldo si a bit of a poser, but if his one trick is getting 12 odd goals from out wide, I'd take it. That's not a bad return, now is it? He had a tough year last year, and if he's so bad, why are most top teams sniffing around? Why is he being courted by Madrid, why is he one of the first names on the sheet for Portugal??

Paul Tergat

tred wrote:

That is true. But if you take RVN out of that equation and lose your top goal scorer, then is it feasable to expect to achieve the same next season. Thats what I am thinking about.

you have to think of who any possible replacements would be and then their impact on the way the team plays. IMO, Saha is a better team player, he's likey to contribute to the team better than Ruud will and he can also score a good load of goals...that's one of the criticisms of Ruud, that he doesn't play for the team as much as he could and doesn't defend from the front as well as Saha does!

tred wrote:

Ferguson despite all his critics is well able to motivate players, but i think hes losing a lot of experience very quickly.

What do u mean by this? he's losing experience???


This summer will go along way to assessing whether Utd can mount a serious challenge to Chelsea this season. There are a few problem areas in the team (most notably the midfield and Ruud situation) and if we can find good consistent performers there than i really feel we can challenge, as Chelsea are always improving we have to too

super_furry

I disagree. In the last two seasons, Chelsea have won back to back Premiership titles and the League Cup, Liverpool have won the European Cup and the FA Cup, while Arsenal have won the FA Cup and made it to the final of the European Cup. By contrast United have the Carling Cup to show for their efforts – a trophy that the team and fans alike have long derided.

A successful club like Manchester United can only be judged on their achievements and in the last two seasons, they have been bypassed.

Paul Tergat

super_furry wrote:

they have been bypassed.

That doesn't equal decline though, may just mean standing still while others are improving, as mentioned before!

Fighting Irish

Big Nelly wrote:

Just actually read the title of this thread, it aint worth it replying to someone who doesn't even know proper english. Yeah Utd are dead and gone!!

:rolleyes: omg who cares

Fighting Irish

I remember a few weeks back a lot of people taught Saha was up for the job(taking over ruuds place) Saha should not even be a United player

dirkey_wynne

super_furry wrote:

I disagree. In the last two seasons, Chelsea have won back to back Premiership titles and the League Cup, Liverpool have won the European Cup and the FA Cup, while Arsenal have won the FA Cup and made it to the final of the European Cup. By contrast United have the Carling Cup to show for their efforts – a trophy that the team and fans alike have long derided.

A successful club like Manchester United can only be judged on their achievements and in the last two seasons, they have been bypassed.

Interesting. Hypothetical question. Had Boro won the Uefa cup, would they have bypassed Utd too? would that mean, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea AND Boro would be better than Utd?

Paul Tergat

Fighting Irish wrote:

Saha should not even be a United player

why is he not good enough? what has suggested that he isnt?

TheMonster

So United despite winning a trophy, upping league place and winning 1 more trophy are in decline while Liverpool who won a lesser trophy than last year and Arsenal who won nothing and slipped down the league are on the up :rolleyes: a

Fighting Irish

p_larkin99 wrote:

why is he not good enough? what has suggested that he isnt?

United are one of the biggest teams in the world, so they need 3 top strikers, they have two and Saha isn't one of them. Saha is not a world class striker, do you disagree?

dirkey_wynne

Fighting Irish wrote:

United are one of the biggest teams in the world, so they need 3 top strikers, they have two and Saha isn't one of them. Saha is not a world class striker, do you disagree?

He's not world class, but there aren't too many world class strikers in the premiership anymore. Henry, Van Nist, Rooney. Drogba isn't. Crespo is but rarely plays. None of the Pool lot are.

Saha is good enough to be a squad player at Utd.

tred

dirkey_wynne wrote:

He's not world class, but there aren't too many world class strikers in the premiership anymore. Henry, Van Nist, Rooney. Drogba isn't. Crespo is but rarely plays. None of the Pool lot are.

Saha is good enough to be a squad player at Utd.

Saha is a good player, but is he 25 goals a season??. Well see this year I suppose. As for above when i mentioned united losing Experience. Roy and RVN moved out in one season. with a good chance that Giggs will only be a bit part player this season considering his age. I think there is trouble ahead for the United boys. I know they well invest, but they rarely come good straight away in the premiership. Who will replace RVN?. Who in Europe this minute will score 25 goals in the premiership gauranteed.

dirkey_wynne

tred wrote:

Saha is a good player, but is he 25 goals a season??. Well see this year I suppose. As for above when i mentioned united losing Experience. Roy and RVN moved out in one season. with a good chance that Giggs will only be a bit part player this season considering his age. I think there is trouble ahead for the United boys. I know they well invest, but they rarely come good straight away in the premiership. Who will replace RVN?. Who in Europe this minute will score 25 goals in the premiership gauranteed.

Noone. Ruud didn't.

jobonar

dirkey_wynne wrote:

He's not world class, but there aren't too many world class strikers in the premiership anymore. Henry, Van Nist, Rooney. Drogba isn't. Crespo is but rarely plays. None of the Pool lot are.

Saha is good enough to be a squad player at Utd.

i agree there are very few world class strikers in the premiership and there are not that many in the whole world... any team that has a world class striker wont sell them for love nor money so in saying that Saha as a good qulaity player, not in the same league as henry,rvn or rooney but he does have a job at united.

look at chelsea they have possibly a world class striker in crespo but he doesnt play and his style isnt suited to the PL.
Arsenal have 1 world class striker in henry, liverpool have none, spurs have none! do any other team in the PL have a world class striker???!!

united are the only team in the PL with 2 world class strikers at the moment(Rooney,RVN) and this showed last season when united scored the most goals in the PL along with chelsea but thy rely on Lampard for goals as Drogba doesnt score enuf!!

Paul Tergat

Fighting Irish wrote:

United are one of the biggest teams in the world, so they need 3 top strikers, they have two and Saha isn't one of them. Saha is not a world class striker, do you disagree?

It depends on your definition of a world class striker, as mentioned there are not too many around...Ruud and Henry are the immediate 2 in the premiership...but if you would consider someone is world class if they can get 25 goals a season then yes Saha is....given the chance he will score a lot of goals, his pace is always going to worry defenders and he integrates well with the team...advantages over Ruud are his pace, team work ethic, link up play and hes a better header of the ball

I would be happy going into the new season with a fit Saha and Rooney up top.... that partnership really can work for the next few years!

tred

dirkey_wynne wrote:

Noone. Ruud didn't.

He was still uniteds top scorer in all competitions wasnt he. I think hes a loss. Maybe Rooney will up the guns and maybe Saha will make a bigger impact.

Paul Tergat

tred wrote:

Saha is a good player, but is he 25 goals a season??. Well see this year I suppose. As for above when i mentioned united losing Experience. Roy and RVN moved out in one season.

Having Giggs and Scholes in and around younger players gives us all the experience we need! Plus Ruud has not gone, YET

tred wrote:

with a good chance that Giggs will only be a bit part player this season considering his age.

your justification for this? having had a good end to the season, playing out of position?

tred wrote:

Who in Europe this minute will score 25 goals in the premiership gauranteed.

Rooney can get 20+ goals a season and Saha is well capable of doing so too...the point being that with Saha in the team goals will come from other areas of the team...i think with him playing over Ruud then the midfielders will get more goals! so this compensates for the potential loss in goals that will happen if Ruud isnt playing!

shatners basoon

United aren't in decline, however they have declined since the glory days. Their team of 90s glory have all aged/been chucked out by Fergie! and I find it hard to see them replacing them at that standard. This happens in football and its hard to maintain constant success.

I do think that both Liverpool and Arsenal have had a better season than United, its hard to dispute that (well its easy too but it lacks sense!)

However they have money to spend on players and have a bit of up and coming talent yet to come into the fray. Losing RVN is a huge blow as he has been pivotal to their success in recent years, Saha is good and all but hes not of that class. I can't see them scoring as many goals with him even if he works harder.

And yes Giggs is getting old and can't play nearly as well as he used to, he's actually playing better in the middle than on the wing at the moment but needs better cover than O'Shea.

Paul Tergat

shatners basoon wrote:

Losing RVN is a huge blow as he has been pivotal to their success in recent years,

What have we won with him playing for us? We will definitely miss him should he leave but i don't think it will be the end of the world, my opinion is we will be better as a team with Saha playing and will play better football....albeit losing an amazing predator!

shatners basoon

He's won you more matches than i can count by putting in chances that Saha won't. He's the type of player that'll win you a match that you don't deserve to win. That type of player will be sorely missed.

TheMonster

I have to laugh - these are prob the same people who lambast Ruud for only being a goal scorer.

shatners basoon

Eh, whats wrong with being a goal scorer? When have i ever lambasted him?! Laughing is your choice man you dont have to do it!

Pepe LeFrits

The financial power of the United 'franchise' will prevent them from ever truly 'declining', they'll never be far from the summit of the league for any extended period of time.

Unfortunately!

The Muppet

shatners basoon wrote:

He's won you more matches than i can count by putting in chances that Saha won't. He's the type of player that'll win you a match that you don't deserve to win. That type of player will be sorely missed.

And yet Uniteds results/performances this season and last seem to suggest they do just as well if not better when he is not in the team.

That argument is academic as Ruud say's if things stay as they are he will be back next season. I believe he will be sold but until the announcement is made it's speculation. Who Knows, himself and Fergie may have a love in in the summer and iron out their differences.

astrofool

It may have all been a ploy to distract Chelsea from Shevchenko for a few days! Couldn't you imagine Kenyon smarming up to RVN right now?

el rabitos

a team in decline is a very relative term in regards to chelsea, man u, liverpool and arsenal.

those 4 teams are only ever going to be in decline in regards to one another. the rest of the premiership is pretty irrelevent in many ways.

are man utd in decline within the top 4? not in my opinion. are they the second best team within the top 4, no, i dont think so.

when looking at where they finised, you have to take into account how many more games liverpool and arsenal played. i dont think utd are in decline, i think they're fairly stagnent (sp?) but they wont decline any futher than 4th place and wont go any higher than second anytime soon imo.

ask any liverpool fan how worried they were about utd even after pool lost 1-0 that time in the last minute. was everyone pissed off? yeah, but watching that game and then the following game in the fa cup, it was pretty obvious that liverpool are eclipsing them.

but having said that, utd could easily go and replace that midfield, buy a new striker, and push off with chelsea ahead of pool and arsenal.

theres too much money within the teams in the top 4 for any of them to be in decline anytime soon as regards to another team pushing into the top 4

TonyD79

They need two quality midfielders and if van nistelroy goes than a quality striker( Owen,torres? ) As regards to midfielders Ballack was the man along with another quality defensive midfielder. Also a left/right winger who can provide some decent supply. Ronaldo can play either wing so just buy a quick one that can cross the ball...duff?(no chance) pederson? also some of the players linked with utd arnt up to scratch- reid,graveson.......if they dont get it right in the transfer market this summer they will struggle to keep second place never mind contend with chelsea.

Ruskie4Rent

el rabitos wrote:

ask any liverpool fan how worried they were about utd even after pool lost 1-0 that time in the last minute. was everyone pissed off? yeah, but watching that game and then the following game in the fa cup, it was pretty obvious that liverpool are eclipsing them.

Eh eclipsing? So you have judged this by the fact that liverpool have beaten ManU in an away fa cup game, won by a jammy peter crouch goal. That's as 'bout as obvious as a french lady farting. (silent and smelly...not very obvious at all).
ManU have come second this season with no midfield, heinze out and john O'Shea playing regularly. Say what you will about van Nistelrooy but i'm perfectly comfortable with him gone and if he stays, fine. I'm not too bothered. ManU are not as good as chelsea but they'll be better next year whoever they bring in and i'm not worried by a team with only two players worthy of a place at ManU. Well I like reina he can be on the bench.