Are United a Team in decline

Chucky the tree

Ruskie4Rent wrote:

Eh eclipsing? So you have judged this by the fact that liverpool have beaten ManU in an away fa cup game, won by a jammy peter crouch goal..

How excaclty is peter crouch jammy?

el rabitos

Eh eclipsing? So you have judged this by the fact that liverpool have beaten ManU in an away fa cup game, won by a jammy peter crouch goal. That's as 'bout as obvious as a french lady farting. (silent and smelly...not very obvious at all).

eh....dont put words in my mouth, i said based on the 2 most recent games i think liverpool showed alot to suggest they were eclipsing them. thats just my opinion, i saw both games, i'm sure i'm biased being a liverpool fan and all, but i reckon even the most hardened utd fan can see they were dominated in both games.

and dont start calling crouch's goal jammy, its a stupid statement that will just start a load of crap about liverpool/man u.

ManU have come second this season with no midfield, heinze out and john O'Shea playing regularly. Say what you will about van Nistelrooy but i'm perfectly comfortable with him gone and if he stays, fine. I'm not too bothered. ManU are not as good as chelsea but they'll be better next year whoever they bring in and i'm not worried by a team with only two players worthy of a place at ManU. Well I like reina he can be on the bench.

liverpool played 60+ games this season, finished 3rd and won the fa cup, arsenal had players injured all over the place, finished in a champions league spot and got to the champions league final....so, whats yours point?

the rest of ur post is just flaming bull

cournioni

rabitos, the Premiership table doesn't lie.

Necronomicon

Whoot, another United v Liverpool snorefest thread.

cournioni

Great isn't it?!

Personally I think that if we get the RVN situation sorted out and get two very good midfielders, one possibly world class we will definately be up there challenging Chelsea next season.

el rabitos

rabitos, the Premiership table doesn't lie.

i never said it did man, but if the team i supported played 60+ plus games, and game 1 point behind the team that played around 50ish i'd be the happier supporter going into the next season

wheres me jumpa

I have pointed this out here a few times this season, but here it goes again. United finished 2nd this season, having lost their captain Roy Keane, their left back Heinze, and midfielder Scholes for a large chunk of the season.

Some of the teams we fielded this year were disgraceful. But yet we finsihed 2nd. So it is my belief that with Heinze and Scholes back plus the guaranteed signings we will make over the summer that things arent looking so bad.

It will be a while before we can match the consistency of Chelsea, that goes for anyother team with the exception of the Pool.

astrofool

I think Manu Pool should be judged in how they play against other teams, as due to the rivalry between them, their games are like derby's and not usually indicative of how well they're playing in the league. Even when pool were down in 6th/7th a few years ago, they were always utd's hardest fixture.

PHB

liverpool played 60+ games this season, finished 3rd and won the fa cup,

Indeed, I was just thinking this.

United and Liverpool.
If those two games had been reversed, United woulda been in 3rd and had the FA Cup, Liverpool woulda been in 2nd without an FA Cup.
If that had happened, I'm fairly sure all Man U fans would say that the Cup was better, and all Liverpool fans would say the the league was better.

I will, and always believe leagues show the best team, but since it was only a point, it's not a huge thing.

United and Liverpool had identical seasons in reality, with two games deciding the difference, except that everything went wrong for United this year, with injuries, leavings, and suspensions all coming at the wrong time, while things went well for Liverpool this year.

What is decline?
I'd imagine after the treble, we were always going to decline from that, so I guess so

Are we getting worse? I think we've stayed consistant since we last won the premiership, other teams have raised the bar.

We've lost out on the premiership to
Arsenals unbeaten season
Chelsea's two record setting seasons

Are we going to get better? i.e. not decline.

I think so.
Losing Ruud is bad, I think he's great, but you simply can't deny the fact United play better without him in the team. We create more chances. It's weird, but it's true.

United have no central midfield, full stop. Once we replace it, we have a great defense and attack.
People will say our defense isn't great, but if you look at the season before hand, we had the same back 4, with Keano in front of them, and they were the same as Chelseas.
With a decent midfielder in front of them, we can defend better, which is what cost us this year.
With a decent attacking midfielder, we will create the same amount, and with Ronaldo and Rooney always making chances, we'll be fine.

Then after those 2 midfielders, you have the addition of the following players to next season, or their continued development:

Vidic
Evra
Pique
Heinze
Scholes
Jones
Richardson
Rossi

With the removal of Fortune, Fletcher, and Slyvestre

p.s. Rooney will add an extra 5 goals onto his tally, he just gets better and better. He will take Ruud's place as top scorer, I think everybody knows this. Saha can take his place as second highest scorer.

I think we're getting stronger, and I fully expect us, and will be shocked, if we aren't Chelsea's main competition next year.

---

Just an aside about the youth team:

The under 18's, which I guess people see as the youth team, had a fairly poor season. This was due to everybody good in the youth team went into the reserves. The u18's came second to Blackburn in their league,

The reserves completed a treble this year, with very few non young players playing (ole coming back from injury and Howard oftenish, with players coming back from injury playing a game or two)
This is essentially the same team that won the quadruple the year before, and there is some incredible talent in that team, which I've talked about a lot in the transfer rumours thread, but here's one of my posts about it:

Have a look at this page, for a huge huge huge post from another board about the youth team
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054901030&page=12

But in general:

Jones
Rossi
Rincon
Evans
Gibson
Pique

are all going to be top class players for United.

There is a strong feeling around United of incredible potential, that hasn't been felt since the golden generation.

We have some incredible, absolutely incredible youth talent, even added is Mikel comes in. We have a very young team, and they are only going to get better.

el rabitos

I think we're getting stronger, and I fully expect us, and will be shocked, if we aren't Chelsea's main competition next year.

you better set your eyes to "stun" then

mchurl

I dont think United have been in decline at all, its simply that otehr teams such as Chelsea have raised the bar that much higher. With the addition of a top class striker to replace RVN if eh goes, and a quality central midfielder, i think Untied will be Chelsea's main challengers again next season, but i'm not convinced they have what it takes to overtake them.

ziggy

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dirkey_wynne

el rabitos wrote:

eh....dont put words in my mouth, i said based on the 2 most recent games i think liverpool showed alot to suggest they were eclipsing them. thats just my opinion, i saw both games, i'm sure i'm biased being a liverpool fan and all, but i reckon even the most hardened utd fan can see they were dominated in both games.

and dont start calling crouch's goal jammy, its a stupid statement that will just start a load of crap about liverpool/man u.



liverpool played 60+ games this season, finished 3rd and won the fa cup, arsenal had players injured all over the place, finished in a champions league spot and got to the champions league final....so, whats yours point?

the rest of ur post is just flaming bull

Liverpool certainly did not dominate the league game at OT. They had more time on the ball, but created about 2 clear cut chances. That is not domination. Teams like Utd are quite happy to allow Liverpool have the ball in midfield, because we don't fear the strikeforce. We know if we can keep it tight at the back, we can nip a goal at the other end - as was the case there. Conversely we know if we go behind we'll struggle to break Liverpool down - as was the case in the FA cup match.

As for Liverpool playing 60+ games, there were about 8 more than Utd I'm guessing. 6 CL, a couple in the FA cup. So that's not that big a difference. And if you look at the players out injured for Utd compared to Liverpool, you'll see Liverpool had an extremely lucky run with injuries compared to Utd. We started the season losing players all over the place. Nev was out, Brown in and out, Heinze out for season, Saha out for a big spell, Scholes missed a lot of the season. These are all big players. Couple that with Ronaldo having an awful time for first half of season, causing him to be half the player he is etc.

I'm confident Utd will finish above Liverpool again next year, but then that could all change with summer transfers etc. I'm hoping Fergie will pull something good out of the bag!

jesus_thats_gre

IMO Liverpool, United and Arsenal all have room for improvment and I feel all three will push Chelsea at some stage over the next few seasons..

Arsenal retaining Henry is a critical element of their future secured and a few decent signings will make them a terrific side again. There performances at the beginning of the season were a severe drop off from the season before but this can be attributed to Viera moving on. As the season progressed however, they started to improve.. This season was their rebuilding season and they will be a more serious threat next season.

Liverpool have glaring weaknesses and I have no doubt Rafa will take steps to correct these. Even with an obvious lack of goal scoring threat up front, Liverpool had a tremendous season thanks to an incredible reliable defence and very strong central midfield. Liverpool have made massive strides over the past 2 seasons. I honestly feel they probably would have pipped United to second place if they did not have so many fixtures but it foolish to hang onto that excuse.

I honestly feel Liverpool will push Chelsea the closest next season once they can get the fire power upfront that they so badly need. If they do not, they will fight it out with United and Arsenal for 2nd/3rd/4th.

United certainly have the biggest question mark hanging over theirs heads, especially now that Arsenal have Henry wrapped up. If Ruud does leave it will put tremendous pressure on Ferguson to find a replacement. Rossi will obviously become more involved but whether he becomes the hit that many United supporters think he will be is anyones guess.. Only time will tell.. United's main weaknesses are in their midfield. They just do not have the quality needed and alot of the quality they do have is getting very old.

For me, United are still very much a team in transition and it will take at least another full season before they will mount a real challenge..

cournioni

ziggy67 wrote:

How do you explain away the European performances then?

4-5-1. Need I say more?

TheMonster

Totally agree Pornapster - Fergie has been guilty of giving far too much respect to the opposition in Europe. The 2nd half of last season hopefully has persuaded him never to play that again.

The Muppet

I agree too.

4 5 1 is the reason and trying to accomodate players that were either not good enough or no longer up to the task at the highest level.

jesus_thats_gre

The Muppet wrote:

trying to accomodate players that were either not good enough or no longer up to the task at the highest level.

I think this may be the basis for some peoples argument that United may be a team in decline... Let's face it, there is a wee handful of players who played regularly enough last season who shouldn't be playing football, nevermind playing for the biggest club in the PL.

jesus_thats_gre

dirkey_wynne wrote:

As for Liverpool playing 60+ games, there were about 8 more than Utd I'm guessing. 6 CL, a couple in the FA cup. So that's not that big a difference.

So Liverpool played somewhere in the region of 15% more games than United did and you are claiming that is not a big difference. IMO it is a massive difference. Also consider that they started playing competitive matches on mid July while United were just messing about in pre-season. Also, do not forget the trip half way across the world in the middle of December.. The effect of those extra games was blatantly obvious towards the end of the FA Cup final when half the Liverpool team appeared to be suffering from cramp etc when barely any of the West Ham team were suffering at all..

I think it is reasonable and fair to say that if Liverpool played the same number of games, didn't have a season that started a month earlier, didn't travel half way across the world just before the busy Christmas period, that they could have gained 2 or 3 more points over the course of the league. That is not to make an excuse or play down that United deserved to finish 2nd. United deserved 2nd and Liverpool fans would be silly to hold the above over United supporters. However, both fans should consider the above. Particularly relevent as United opted out of participating in the FA Cup the year they competed in the World Club Championship due to the effect the travelling and fixture congestion would have on the teams season..

The Muppet

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

I think this may be the basis for some peoples argument that United may be a team in decline... Let's face it, there is a wee handful of players who played regularly enough last season who shouldn't be playing football, nevermind playing for the biggest club in the PL.

A look at their league position and points tally over the last few season cleary shows that they are not in decline. They most certainly have been in transition and made some poor purchases. They have also tried (unsuccessfully to date), to bring some home grown talent through .

Fergie has identified the problems and has or is in the process of solving them. United have the right man at the helm and with a few good buys in the summer hopefully they will close the gap on Chelsea.

dirkey_wynne

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

So Liverpool played somewhere in the region of 15% more games than United did and you are claiming that is not a big difference. IMO it is a massive difference. Also consider that they started playing competitive matches on mid July while United were just messing about in pre-season. Also, do not forget the trip half way across the world in the middle of December.. The effect of those extra games was blatantly obvious towards the end of the FA Cup final when half the Liverpool team appeared to be suffering from cramp etc when barely any of the West Ham team were suffering at all..

Well to be honest, it's less than 8 games more, because I didn't factor in the extra games Utd played in the Carling Cup. The reason being, I wouldn't view them as being particularly tough, as before the semi Utd generally fielded reserve sides. I'm fairly sure Liverpool didn't put out full teams in all the qualifiers of the CL, yet I still stuck those into my guesstimate.

The halfway around the world thing is hilarious. That was flaunted as a reason for Utd being well rested the year we played in it! So I completely disregard that comment.

Anyway, all this stuff is incidental, and we'll never conclusively come to a conclusion. Over hte course of the season, Pool played more games, utd had more injuries. Cest la vie.

PHB

It's 8 games, and it has an effect.

United are losing all the deadweight, that's clear to all.
From the team I pointed out that will be there next year, who isn't up to scratch?

el rabitos

well given that if the league had started in october, liverpool would be champions and man utd were putting together long sequences of winning aswell, its fairly easy to see that if both man u and liverpool hit the ground running at the start of the season, that chelsea wouldnt have had it so easy.

if i was a betting man i'd put my money on man u, liverpool and chelsea all leading the premiership for extended periods next year. assuming that man u and liverpool start better than last season. i reckon rafa and fergie will know now how important it is to start as you mean to go on if they want to challenge chelsea.

i dont like to write off arsenal, but they need a player like a viera/keane/davids/sissoko, someone to break up the oppositions attacks, especially in away games against the likes of blackburn and bolton, fabregas is good but he hasnt got the same kind of frame as viera, he's not as imposing yet, but he has more gyle about him.

alot depends on who united bring in, i think right now liverpool have a more balanced squad, united need 2 really good midfielders, but with real madrid trying to rebuild they're squad aswell, and bayern maybe looking to replace ballack, there might be a bit of a fight for midfielders this summer.

letting rvn go might be shooting themselves in the foot, i dont see saha doing it in the champions league at the level i can see rvn doing it. fergie has to have his eye on some striker if he thinks he can let rvn go.

Ruskie4Rent

ziggy67 wrote:

How do you explain away the european performances then?[/ziggy67]
jesus!:rolleyes: monaco got the final a couple of years back and deportivo to the semi's in the same year with very poor teams. My point is that where a team finishes in that competition doesn't reflect the quality of the team all of the time. This year ManU played awful against some pretty average teams. One of which reached the semis and the other knocked out liverpool. You can't judge wether or not a team is in decline depending on how the've played in a few certain games.

ziggy

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TheDoc

United linked with interest for Torres along with Arsenal and other top clubs, imagine getting him, haha, also ronaldo i think could be useful up front and they have rooney and saha.

I dont think Van the man would be a loss at all.

Remember ferguson already revealed earlier in the season he has already gotten verbal confirmation of two big name signings , who he said were in the quarter finals. So united midfield woes might be over too.

PHB

Remember ferguson already revealed earlier in the season he has already gotten verbal confirmation of two big name signings

When was this?

The Muppet

ziggy67 wrote:

Ruskie4Rent wrote:

Utd have been getting progressively worse in the CL since winning the competition- that is decline.

Using that reasoning Liverpool must be in decline as well.

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote:

Remember ferguson already revealed earlier in the season he has already gotten verbal confirmation of two big name signings , who he said were in the quarter finals. So united midfield woes might be over too.

Did he say that? I know he said he was after two players that were still in the CL but I don't recall hearing the bit about having verbal agreements with anyone.

dirkey_wynne

ziggy67 wrote:

Ruskie4Rent wrote:

Utd have been getting progressively worse in the CL since winning the competition- that is decline.

I never said it was on just this years performance, you did. And you must admit a couple of years ago it would have been unthinkable for Utd to finish bottom of the 1st group stage, it wasn't so long ago they absolutely cruised through the groups every year.

This is one bizarre statement. Hence, by this rationale, Arsenal who made the final this year, yet struggled and scraped back into the competition next year on the final day thanks to a win and a loss for Spurs are a better side than that which went a full season unbeaten a couple of years back?? Sheesh.

Necronomicon

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote:

United linked with interest for Torres along with Arsenal and other top clubs, imagine getting him, haha, also ronaldo i think could be useful up front and they have rooney and saha.

I dont think Van the man would be a loss at all.

I don't think Torres could come close to denting Ruud's scoring record.

Garret

ronaldo isnt a natural finisher

tred

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote:

United linked with interest for Torres along with Arsenal and other top clubs, imagine getting him, haha, also ronaldo i think could be useful up front and they have rooney and saha.

I dont think Van the man would be a loss at all.

Remember ferguson already revealed earlier in the season he has already gotten verbal confirmation of two big name signings , who he said were in the quarter finals. So united midfield woes might be over too.

In the quater finals of champions league? then taht rules out Torres. there being linked to the lyon midfielder, but so were Real Madrid

ziggy

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ziggy

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jesus_thats_gre

dirkey_wynne wrote:

This is one bizarre statement. Hence, by this rationale, Arsenal who made the final this year, yet struggled and scraped back into the competition next year on the final day thanks to a win and a loss for Spurs are a better side than that which went a full season unbeaten a couple of years back?? Sheesh.

What planet are you on.. His statement couldn't possibly be more logical..

dirkey_wynne

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

What planet are you on.. His statement couldn't possibly be more logical..

Yes it could. Utd are declining in the CL. This I accept. But using that as rationale for saying that Utd are in decline is wrong, considering we're getting in and around the same league points total as we have been in teh Prem.

The Muppet

ziggy67 wrote:

I wouldn't say that after 1 season but if 6 seasons after winning it they are coming bottom of the group stages then yes they would be in decline (in that competition)

You didn't specify competition when making your comment about United. Obviously United have declined in Europe since 99 but they have not declined all that much in the league which is the true barometer of form given that it is over a longer period.

Aldini98

With any luck, yes they are.

Getting rid of RVN (probably) and keeping Ronaldo is a farce, should spell the end for Sir.

ziggy

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el rabitos

theres some quote by some random old dude, cant remember his name, anyway it goes like this..."you dont stand still, if your not getting better, your getting worse"....i dont think united are getting better, so...

Necronomicon

el rabitos wrote:

theres some quote by some random old dude, cant remember his name, anyway it goes like this..."you dont stand still, if your not getting better, your getting worse"....i dont think united are getting better, so...

Well, they've climed a place in the league in the last year.
I think it's all a bit subjective really, people have different ideas of what it is to decline. Obviously United have left a lot to be desired in Europe in recent years, but I don't think they've fallen off the pace as dramatically as people make out in the league. This season's tally I believe is what they finished on when they won the Premiership in 02/03. As a lot of people have already said in the thread, other teams have raised the bar and United haven't been able to raise it to quite the same level. Does that mean they're in decline? Not in my (somewhat biased) opinion.

PHB

It's all semantics anyway,

So we are agreed, they have declined then.

Indeed, everybody declines from the treble.

Liverpool have declined this year, went from winning it to getting knocked out by Benfica.

Liverpool a team in decline!

el rabitos

Liverpool a team in decline!

make sure u clutch onto those straws tight

The Muppet

ziggy67 wrote:

So we are agreed, they have declined then.

You would have to be specific with that question (like you were with your liverpool comment)for me to be able to answer it. Unite got more points in the League (for me the main competition )this year than they did last season so I would say the are on the up.

el rabitos wrote:

Liverpool a team in decline!


make sure u clutch onto those straws tight

Well using Ziggy67s rational they must be in decline.

el rabitos

i think he used the word "progressivily" when he was talking about uniteds performances in the champions league, they've been getting progressivly worse, which is true, but it suggests its over a period of a few seasons

liverpool are only 1 year removed from winning it, liverpools consistancy or decline can only be measured in the same way after a number of years.

The Muppet

el rabitos wrote:

liverpool are only 1 year removed from winning it, liverpools consistancy or decline can only be measured in the same way after a number of years.

To form an opinion on any teams form on a a knockout competition is Bullsh1t. Anything can happen, for instance the year Porto won it they knocked united out thanks to a dodgy off side decision. The PL is the best guage of a teams abilities and using that United are still the number one contenders for Chelseas crown.

el rabitos

To form an opinion on any teams form on a a knockout competition is Bullsh1t. Anything can happen, for instance the year Porto won it they knocked united out thanks to a dodgy off side decision. The PL is the best guage of a teams abilities and using that United are still the number one contenders for Chelseas crown.

its only a knock-out competition if you qualify from the group stage. united didnt get that far last season.

the premiership is probably the best indicator, as you said. but liverpool did play significantly more games than united and to only finish 1 point behind them is more a bad reflection on united than anything else i reckon

ziggy

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fade2black

el rabitos wrote:

the premiership is probably the best indicator, as you said. but liverpool did play significantly more games than united and to only finish 1 point behind them is more a bad reflection on united than anything else i reckon

Now that to me sounds like scraping the barrell. They played about 6 more games than Man U. I don't think you want to be using that as an excuse. Like Man U, Liverpool drew too many games last year and lost matches that they should have been winning. I think it has nothing to do with the amount of games they played.

el rabitos

Now that to me sounds like scraping the barrell. They played about 6 more games than Man U. I don't think you want to be using that as an excuse. Like Man U, Liverpool drew too many games last year and lost matches that they should have been winning. I think it has nothing to do with the amount of games they played

man, if u dont think going to japan in december had any affect on liverpool, your just dillusional. they also started the season in july. between those, dropping 3 points is more than feasable.

getting away from a liverpool/man u thing, i really dont think man u are in a decline. spurs, bolton, blackburn or newcaslte wont be a consistant threat to any of any of the current top anytime soon, so a decline is only relative in terms of the top 4.

i dont think utd are in a decline at all, but at the same time, i dont think they are getting better, its very easy to say, "if we get this player for the midfield or get this striker", but with chelsea snapping up any big player or young player with tallent, its going to become alot harder to compete with teams like barca, real and milan for the scraps

i think developing youth is the only real long term way of beating chelsea, and so far arsenal are looking like the biggest threat to chelsea