Charges against 33 cathedral protest Afghans may be dropped

DadaKopf

I posed the questions more as points that we should be making to our illustrious Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

I mean, I can't answer why highly confidential information relating to one of the asylum seekers was leaked by the Dept of Justice or who made the decision to leak the information.

I also don't know why the adult hunger strikers weren't given any medical attention in Bridewell, nor any food - someone clearly made the decision not to.

They can answer these questions. As obviously concerned citizens in some way or other, I think we should all be thinking about how members of our own government and civil service have attacked our legal and democratic system.

Also ironic that after having abuse and constitutions hurled at him by Irish bigots and racists at an international conference, McDowell batted their protestations off as their democratic right of protest. I wonder why he failed to grant the same respect to the Afghani hunger strikers who were also expressing their right to protest. Of course he didn't allow them this human right, and, instead, he and the state engage in a campaign of state thuggery and villification.

juslookin

Aaargghhh Maaarrrgghhh

As you know, much of the discussion was about the implications of the lads actions. In that if this behavior was acceptable course of action for 41 people claiming to be Afghan, some of who were claiming to be under 18, most of whom were claiming to be escaping persecution/in fear of their lives/facing certain death etc then it could be deemed acceptable for not just the entire population of Afghanistan, Nigeria, Somalia and indeed the entire planet.

Have you had any luck with taking a couple of the lads in under your own roof and taking responsibility for them and the financial cost of keeping them ? You certainly talked the talk, but it would be nice to see you walk the walk ?

As the lads are high profile I think we should widen the remit to any two foreign nationals that you meet at the port or airport. Remember no questions asked, just take their story at face value and get on with it.

Re the questions, I'm wondering;

What is an acceptable timescale for Irelands population to reach double figures, then 15, 20, 25 and 30 million, which Ireland should be able to accomodate if not economically then at least in terms of land mass.

What is an acceptable timescale for Dublin's population to become majority non indiginous Irish ? 2055 or sooner ?

What is an acceptable timescale for Ireland's population to become majority non indigious Irish ? 2095 or sooner ?

Leaving aside such emotive reasons as the fight for independence and the troubles is there really any good or justifialbe reason for preserving the culture of the indiginous Irish ?

What personal sacrifices will you personally be making to accomodate the population growth, population density, economic conditions and cultural conditions.

How many Euros an hour will you be willing to take a wage drop to ?

Do you think there are any areas of Ireland in particular that should not be concreted over ?

Will you have any problems living under Sharia law and if so how do you intend to make your concerns known once you are ?

How will it be explained to the Irish people that the struggles of the last century have no value and that they should accept their fate ?

How will you balanance the economic requirements of managing the HIV/AIDS and TB explosion with the financial cost of managing it ?

Will you enjoy returning to the living conditions and standards of 1950s Ireland ?

HelterSkelter

juslookin, about all your questions, are you saying that you think all those things are going to happen?

Saintly

DadaKopf wrote:

How about the state claming it as a victory for the Department of Justice and the Gardai and as a vindication of McDowell's use of force?

An end to the protest was brokered by the CoI, Integrating Ireland, Residents Against Racism and two human rights lawyers who convinced the Afghanis to choose to end the protest themselves.

No one's yet bothered to try answering my questions in the Humanities thread on this issue.

I will get around to answering those questions, just too lazy right now! Okay, first off, congrats on raising some interesting points, I don't necessarily agree with every one but it's nice to see some rational discussion on this topic.

A few main points right now - I had a limited participation in this affair. I witnessed mediators from those groups tripping over themselves to get to these chaps, at unhelpful times. Nobody convinced these guys of anything. They made and ended their decision as a group. From my perspective, the refusal of the COI proposal expedited the group's decision to end the strike - it sank in that this was not going to be a successful tactic. I am delighted that the government held firm on this. This sends out a healthy message, no minor in this country could feasibly think that hunger striking is helpful choice in their application process - the most important thing, is that it ended safely without loss or harm to life.

On that note - medical attention was provided to all Afghans prior to transfer to the garda station. You have to remember that most of these guys were less dehydrated than your average binge drinker who lands in A&E after a 3 day bender. Had the docs had medical concerns, they would have transferred the strikers to hospital.

I agree that the media has taken the lazy option and for the most part has sensationalised, what basically is a petty criminal action. The outrage to it seems disproportionate. There are woeful inadequacies in our asylum process. People seem elated by a UN endorsal of our system - this being the same body that failed to recognise genocide (how obvious is that!) in Rwanda,Sudan. Failed to co-ordinate their own relief efforts in Kosovo etc. I certainly don't hold unshakeable faith in the findings of any UN body. Nobody should have to wait five years to await an outcome of an asylum application. It's ridiculous, cruel, costly, inefficient and typical of our creaking systems. It would have been refreshing to see a broader analysis of the issue of asylum seekers, as opposed to the Herald's screaming headlines...

Saintly.

DadaKopf

Yes, I should have said that the Afghans made their own decision to end the protest. This happened because these groups promised them thoroughgoing support and legal counsel. But they made their own decision. Basically, a positive alternative was offered.

Conversely, I wouldn't give any credit to the Department of Justice or the government, as the state acted entirely as one would expect it to. The HSE, however, were excellent.

I can't comment on the protesters' exact state at the time of detention in Bridewell, but they should, nevertheless, have gotten instant medical treatment.

AngryAnderson

Ag marbh wrote:

haha that made me laugh!

Yeah, hilarious. Utterly nonsensical and unintelligent but hilarious all the same. Oh how we all laugh.

Terry

they have shown that they are trouble makers. send them back to afghanistan.
i have pointed out on many occasions that i have absolutely no problem with immigrants in this country. the Irish are the last people in the world who can complain about immigration. (i think it was something like 100 million people worldwide who claimed Irish decendancy at the last count). but these 41 people are no better than the scumbag Irish you see on the street every day. we can't deport our own, but we can deport these people. they don't even deserve the privelege of the asylum process after the stunt they pulled.
bring on the decent afghani people. they are quite welcome here i my eyes.

astrofool

DadaKopf wrote:

Also ironic that after having abuse and constitutions hurled at him by Irish bigots and racists at an international conference, McDowell batted their protestations off as their democratic right of protest. I wonder why he failed to grant the same respect to the Afghani hunger strikers who were also expressing their right to protest. Of course he didn't allow them this human right, and, instead, he and the state engage in a campaign of state thuggery and villification.

Of course their right to protest came from being legally allowed to be in the country.

omahaid

God, I dunno why everyone's in a huff. The CoI enacted their rights in a civil and law abiding fashion. If their legal right (according to the law laid out by the people of Ireland) allows them to do so, I commend them. Kudos for acting in a manner that coincides with the democratic will of the people! Although, in hindsight, kudos does not apply to behaviour consistent with the obligations on someone in Ireland to obey the will of democratic decisions. Apparently this obligation does not apply outside Ireland (opportunity for someone who disagrees with the will of the people I suppose?).

coolhandluke

Loony lefties only abide by the law when it suits their agenda.

AngryAnderson

coolhandluke wrote:

Loony lefties only abide by the law when it suits their agenda.

You don't say.

DadaKopf

juslookin wrote:

Re the questions, I'm wondering;

What is an acceptable timescale for Irelands population to reach double figures, then 15, 20, 25 and 30 million, which Ireland should be able to accomodate if not economically then at least in terms of land mass.

What is an acceptable timescale for Dublin's population to become majority non indiginous Irish ? 2055 or sooner ?

What is an acceptable timescale for Ireland's population to become majority non indigious Irish ? 2095 or sooner ?

Leaving aside such emotive reasons as the fight for independence and the troubles is there really any good or justifialbe reason for preserving the culture of the indiginous Irish ?

What personal sacrifices will you personally be making to accomodate the population growth, population density, economic conditions and cultural conditions.

How many Euros an hour will you be willing to take a wage drop to ?

Do you think there are any areas of Ireland in particular that should not be concreted over ?

Will you have any problems living under Sharia law and if so how do you intend to make your concerns known once you are ?

How will it be explained to the Irish people that the struggles of the last century have no value and that they should accept their fate ?

How will you balanance the economic requirements of managing the HIV/AIDS and TB explosion with the financial cost of managing it ?

Will you enjoy returning to the living conditions and standards of 1950s Ireland ?

I can't be bothered answering these questions since they already imply an answer that you want to hear, i.e. foreigners out.

Catney

HelterSkelter wrote:

It's obvious to the dogs on the street that these men are economic migrants. They came here for a better life. And fair fúcks to them. I would do exactly the same thing if I was from Afganistan, I'd pick the best country with the best economy and try to make a go of it there. If you're honest you'd probably do the same, wouldn't you?

fair enough point. However they were caught out and their application wasnt looked on favourably. They played the game, fair enough, but they failed. They should go home.

juslookin

DadaKopf wrote:

I can't be bothered answering these questions since they already imply an answer that you want to hear, i.e. foreigners out.

Dadakompf,

As a moderator, one would expect some impartiality for you. As you seem to have a biased viewpoint one wonders about the standard of your moderation.

I do not think “foreigners out” for one second.

Those “foreigners” in Ireland have that been proved to have a lawful and legal right to be there should not be removed and to “out” them would be nothing less than criminal and unlawful.

However Ireland might take some serious unemotive mature and rational decisions on its stance towards mass immigration.

I am a London England resident and I have experience firsthand “multiculturalism”. Truth be told I don’t like it, but that does not make me a “rrrraaaacccccissssttt”. The fact is that many immigrant populations / communities in London do not support multiculturalism either. Check out for example the Southall Black Sisters stance on this policy.

However, I have watched the phenomenon of mass immigration to Ireland in recent years and have observed that the general standpoint is one of right onness and we must have multiculturalism because the UK has it and it is right on, without truly considering the implications.

Based on OFFICIAL figures from 2000 not including illegals

By 2010 London will have a minority white British population

By 2100, but possibly as early as the 2080s, the UK will have a minority white British population and this will mark the first time in history that a population has become a minority in their native land by choice rather than engaging in conflict to resist (i.e US, Australia, NZ)

Some 20 major UK towns / population centres will between 2008 and 2025 shift to a minority white population

By 2030 the UK population will increase by 7 million immigrants.

In addition to this shift in population through immigration, the effect of immigrant communities having children who will be British citizens will have a huge effect on the actual make up of the population

The UK currently has worse TB rates than many part of the third world

AIDS has exploded in the UK through immigration. All of the sufferes have to be fed housed and treated on the british purse.

A significant number of Muslims in the UK, not a crazy minority but in some instances a majority, would like that having colonised certain areas and turned them into Muslim enclaves the next step would be to introduce Sharia law as it is more appropriate than British law,.

Irish in London/Britain wear soccer and rugby shirts, fly irish flags and at closing time in Irish pubs and clubs across the UK the national anthem is performed. This is seen as the Irish celebrating their culture.

Contrastingly the English in Britain who wear soccer and rubyb shirsts, fly flags and who sing their national anthem in pubs and clubs are viewed and treated as "rrrraaaaaccccsiiiiiissssttsststst".

To those looking for a new life, Ireland is not a sovereign state with a history of war with the UK, but just another part of the UK with similar generous benefits and handouts, just another 20 minutes on a Ryanair flight, and technically a route into the UK or a route out depending on circumstances.

astrofool

There's no requirement for moderators to be impartial for arguments, at all, in any way, even slightly.

juslookin

astrofool wrote:

There's no requirement for moderators to be impartial for arguments, at all, in any way, even slightly.

So makes a mockery of their power to remove posts or ban posters if they don't like it ? So they are on a par with Stalin or Hitler rather than any democratic principle ?

Shellie13

ah now id jusually be saying fair enough...what with irish people emigrating all over the world ffor years n all the **** thats going on in their own country and all!
But this holding the country ransom?!
Bull**** is what that is...A reason to REFUSE asylm in many a case!

DadaKopf

juslookin wrote:

I am a London England resident and I have experience firsthand “multiculturalism”. Truth be told I don’t like it [...] The fact is that many immigrant populations / communities in London do not support multiculturalism either.

With all due respect and rational commentary, juslookin, I knew exactly what you were saying and disagreed.

I'll agree with you on one thing: multiculturalism is the wrong message, and I'm disappointed in London's approach to this. Multiculturalism says: "you can have your culture, I can have mine, we don't have to get to know each other, we don't even have to like each other, but we'll put up with each other".

Is this a good message? No. It's a policy model that promotes ignorance and intolerance.

Interculturalism is a better approach. Interculturalism is about communities socially interacting and getting to know each other. It recognises fundamental human equality and emphasises exchanges of values, interaction and learning. Or, put another way, and echoing your questions, it can be summed up as, "you mean I have to change as well?"

I know it's all very hard for us to adapt to such rapidly changing social and cultural circumstances, but we need to accept it, get on with it and work in our daily lives knit communities together, recognising our interconnectedness.

The occurences last week are a challenge we should embrace, but I get the sense people are just running away from it.

CuLT

juslookin wrote:

So makes a mockery of their power to remove posts or ban posters if they don't like it ? So they are on a par with Stalin or Hitler rather than any democratic principle ?

Does every May 2006 signup have their thumb up their ass or what?

Dadakopf moderates College Play. That's it. On any of the other hundreds of boards on boards.ie, he is a regular user, no banning, locking or other power.

The only power he has over you here is that he is intelligent, coherent and judging by your "Stalin" and "Hitler" comparisons has quite a deal more cop on.

Terry

i agree.
ghettoes are the last thing we need. integration and change (on both sides) are the only way to go.
to the left of me i have an arab neighbour and an english neighbour. to the right i have a chinese neighbour and a neighbour from cork (still Irish, but you know those cork fuckers). lumping immigrants from certain countries together and out of the way has never worked. it only leads to a segregated society and (as pointed out above) ignorance and intolerance.

i was working in a friends house last week and his father was there. he asked my friend where he had been working that day and my friend said rathgar.
"oh, that's where all the jews are" was his fathers reply.
i had no idea what to say, so i just kept my mouth shut. i really didn't want to start an arguement in my friends house with his father anyway.
point is, if, as my friends bigoted father said, rathgar is full of jews, do we really need other towns full of immigrants for the bigots to point and sneer at?
my answer would be no.
the solution (and final one at that) is for immigrants to be spread around the country and allowed to integrate into Irish society and bring some of their own culture with them.

AngryAnderson

julep wrote:

ghettoes are the last thing we need. integration and change (on both sides) are the only way to go.

I completely disagree with this. If foreigners want to come and live in Ireland, then that's grand. However they should integrate into Irish society - not expect Irish society to change for them. Obviously they're entitled to their culture, history, religion and unique sense of identity, etc. but asking Irish people to change is ridiculous. This is Ireland.

julep wrote:

i was working in a friends house last week and his father was there. he asked my friend where he had been working that day and my friend said rathgar.
"oh, that's where all the jews are" was his fathers reply.
i had no idea what to say, so i just kept my mouth shut. i really didn't want to start an arguement in my friends house with his father anyway.

So your friends father pointed out the fact that there are a lot of Jews in the area and you label him a bigot? If I made the observation that there were a lot of black people around Parnell Street or a lot of Chinese people living in Smithfield, would that make me a bigot too? :rolleyes:

Terry

AngryAnderson wrote:

I completely disagree with this. If foreigners want to come and live in Ireland, then that's grand. However they should integrate into Irish society - not expect Irish society to change for them. Obviously they're entitled to their culture, history, religion and unique sense of identity, etc. but asking Irish people to change is ridiculous. This is Ireland.

i'm not saying that we should adopt sharia law or start worshipping vishnu. i'm simply saying that some of their traits will rub off on us and this is something that should be embraced and not feared.
yes, this is Ireland and we have our laws. laws which should be obeyed by all people in this country, but times change and the influx of other races should be seen as a good thing. lumping all arabs/poles/slavs/asians etc together will only createthe ghetto cultures that can be seen in other western countries. we should learn from the mistakes made by the british, french, danish etc. and not follow their example.
we have the chance to integrate these people into our society. this should be done now, before ghettoes begin popping up and creating an even more racist and xenophbic culture than we already seem to have.

So your friends father pointed out the fact that there are a lot of Jews in the area and you label him a bigot? If I made the observation that there were a lot of black people around Parnell Street or a lot of Chinese people living in Smithfield, would that make me a bigot too? :rolleyes:

i should have been more clear. it was his tone and inflection when stating that there are a lot of jews in rathgar. he didn't say it in a nonchalant way. he said it in a 'fucking wanker jews' kind of way. he also made several other unsettling comments through the course of his stay.

DadaKopf

However they should integrate into Irish society

That's assimilation. Never works. Look at France.

The reality is that people retain their own culture, but getting to know each other knits diverse communities together. We should really laud children who don't see differences between people, only how they can play together.

Adults should think more like children and less like fraidy cat bigots.

CuLT

DadaKopf wrote:

That's assimilation. Never works. Look at France.

America?

juslookin

Julep,

I think you are rather missing something here ... maybe cos of your possible niave "right on" approach. "The indiginous are the baddies";

Immigrantants are not simply lumped together by the indiginous. Most often they CHOOSE to congregate in certain areas, with varying degrees of integration with other communities, from mixing in to completly insular. Foir example in certain parts of Britain, members of certain ethnic/cultural/national groups choose to live in specific areas, because in some cases it means they can continue life exactly when they get off the plane exactly as they where they got on. Pakistanis and parts of Northern England where no English is spoken and husbands and wives are imported wholesale with no English and no need to learn it as they will not be encnountering typical British society but live in insular communities.

So the Jews of rathgar were not forced to live there by some Irish SS, they CHOSE to live there. It is well known that the Jewish community do have a tendency to "stick together" with family and friend networks more than other groups, perhaps for obvious historical reasons. I had never met a Jewish person in over 20 years of growing up in London till one job where of the five of us three were Jewish, and it was interesting. One part of London has an "orthodox jewish" community which I visited with my workmate, and many of these people are not seen outside of here. In fact when I visited the area I was really surprised as I had never seen people in this sort of dress in my part of London, ever.

Here's a thing. In Britian, a recent survey of opinions and attitudes about living / working with / neighbors / sexual relationships / intermarraige of other groups the Jews actually came out top in the "racism" stakes in that they were less prepared to accept the other groups, such as acceptance of intermarraige or wishing to live in a certain community.. The textbook "right on" approach is that when an ethnic minority expresses a fear or suspicion or dislike or stereotypical belief of another group that's an understandable cultural issue caused by the racist system, man. When whitey does it its "racism" ... Problem is real life is not black and white.

Terry

yes, i probably am being naive, but lumping people of a different race together in a foreign country does cause problems. mainly on the part of the indiginous population.
i have two friends with cousins in different english cities. birmingham and sunderland. i can remember them coming over here during the summer (many years ago) and telling us how they went "paki bashing". i just don't want to see that kind of crap happening here.

WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?