Foreigners in Limerick

Amazotheamazing

I'm disappointed in this thread, surely everyone who lives in and loves Limerick realises the damage mindless generalisations can do to a place and a people, afterall, it's one of the biggest topics on this board that Limerick gets branded by the actions of a few.

In my own experiences with Polish people, I've found then pleasant, educated people who came here to work, and I think they've been a great addition to the city.

As to whether will mix with the Irish, well we have many of the same characteristics, skin colour and religion amongst many others, even simple things like both being sports mad nations will help. I'll be shouting for Poland n the WC and really hope they do well, I know a few Poles who were shouting for Munster last week too.

ellenmelon

im a quasi foreigner. Im from New Zealand and I've been here for 2.5 years.
The Irish do exactly the same when they travel overseas (Aussie and NZ are the main draw after the States I reckon). They stick together, find the nearest "irish pub" and are fairly clannish. So do us kiwi's most of the time (more London than here really).
And this isnt new..most major cities in the States and other countries would have an historic Irish Quarter or something, or a city would be known for the influx of Irish due to the Famine and the like.
So I think to give out about people not integrating without thinking of what Irish people did when they moved away from Ireland..sticking together.
Speaking from a foreigners point of view (though I have an dual NZ/Irish citizenship and on the Irish foreign birth register) it is way easier to stick with the people that you know, who speak your language and are experiencing the same nervousness and change as you.

New Zealand have had a major influx of people from different cultures in the last 10-15 years and its only now the government are going "****" and trying to stop the flow. its a bit late now! same goes for the Irish government.

The land of a hundred thousand welcomes is a bit of a farce really in my opinion. Irish people are very welcoming usually but a lot are judgmental on any type of foreigner coming in. I found it hard, and still find it hard to intergrate thoroughly even though Im going out with an Irish guy and have lived here for a while.
There are a hell of a lot more Irish free loaders than foreign freeloaders. Just go into the dole office and 90 percent are Irish. I worked with a Polish girl who worked 2 jobs to send money back to Poland to help her mum and pay off student loans.She was absolutely wrecked most of the time but she worked her arse off in both jobs. I dont know that many Irish people that would do that..they think its easier to get a credit card and have massive debts rather than work more hours.
Don't start me on people that go on summer holidays and dont bother experiencing any local culture whatsoever and spend 2 weeks sitting outside "Irish pubs"

Thats just my opinion anyway. If Ireland wants to keep this whole cead mille failte thing up, they need to be more welcoming in a more real way. no point saying "Cead mille failte" then 5 minutes later "Go back to your own country".
It doesnt work that way.

Karmafaerie

billy the squid wrote:

As for the CCCP thing, considering it represents the name of a country which occupied poland it would be like walking into a wolfetones concert with a union Jack tee-shirt.

I was only bringing it up as a joke Billy.
She was the friend of a Polish girl I was working with. She was drunk and pretending to be offended! I just told her that I wasn't supporting communism, but that I was just a massive supporter of the 1970's Russian soccer team, and we both started laughing!

Amazotheamazing wrote:

I'm disappointed in this thread, surely everyone who lives in and loves Limerick realises the damage mindless generalisations can do to a place and a people, afterall, it's one of the biggest topics on this board that Limerick gets branded by the actions of a few.

In my own experiences with Polish people, I've found then pleasant, educated people who came here to work, and I think they've been a great addition to the city.

As to whether will mix with the Irish, well we have many of the same characteristics, skin colour and religion amongst many others, even simple things like both being sports mad nations will help. I'll be shouting for Poland n the WC and really hope they do well, I know a few Poles who were shouting for Munster last week too.

Here here!

cornbb

Well done ellen. I've been following this thread for a while and thats the most sensible thread I've heard yet.

I welcome the fact that Polish (and other) language literature has been published, there's a section in the Parkway Dunnes for Polish food now, and the growing number of ethnic pubs, newspaper articles etc. I recognise the danger of a segregated society developing that IB points out, however, I know a few foreigners living in Limerick who are heavily organised in local societies, the arts scene etc, so this doesn't seem as extreme as the case of the Turks in Germany.

I know I've been referring to the Polish a lot here, but they do vastly outnumber the numerous other immigrant communities. They've only been here since the EU expanded, in most cases, so it makes sense that they're a little bit introverted. As their kids start going to Irish schools etc. its inevitable that they'll start to learn more english and become a more integral part of Limerick.

gaf1983

Amazotheamazing wrote:

I'm disappointed in this thread, surely everyone who lives in and loves Limerick realises the damage mindless generalisations can do to a place and a people, afterall, it's one of the biggest topics on this board that Limerick gets branded by the actions of a few.

In my own experiences with Polish people, I've found then pleasant, educated people who came here to work, and I think they've been a great addition to the city.

Couldn't agree with you more. In my own experiences of Polish people, I've found some to be pleasant, educated, great addition to city etc, but some others to be absolute jerks. So in other words the same as most other nationalities - some sound ones, some bad apples. Just highlights the futility of making generalisations.

Sunn

good post ellen.

jay_haych

<snip> PLEASE bare in mind its just some fun.

mod edit: Please do use unrelated discussions to pimp your wares.

bullets

I have mixed opinions.

I never had any problems with people from other countries coming here
to work. Enough Irish go abroad to work/live.

When you look at England/USA and other places they have had more of
a mixture of different races and cultures for a lot longer than Ireland
so the integration is better.

From speaking to some of the guys I know from the Philippines and Romania
they have it real tough. Seeing their family only a few times a year
and when I say family I mean the wife and kids not just distant relations.
sending most of their money home etc etc.

I go for a walk at lunch time during my work day and all I see is foreigners
going around looking for work with CV's in their hands. I think that is great.
You dont see the Irish making such an effort to get work theyd rather sit
on their backside watching it grow.

A lot of the Polish women are fantastic looking yum yum yum.
Seen some at the bars and restarunts and everyone was drooling over them,
And I love the accents. On the flip side I cant stand it when its raining
and some guy knocks on my front door with a card shoved in my
face that asks me to buy drawings that look like they have been mass
produced and not really hand drawn.

The Irish seem to think that their jobs are being taken but its mostly
the people or could not be arsed to work that are complaining. Either
that or the foreign workers are taking the jobs the Irish dont want to do.

I dont think I am raciest and dont want to appear that way, but I do
have some negative opinions which are totally generalised
and may only apply to a small % of the foreigners that I am
about to comment on.

I do think if the people are to work and interact with the general public
then they should at least have an understandable level of english.

I do find it very frustrating going to the likes of KFC, McDonalds, Shops,
and trying to order something as simple as a Hamburger and speaking to
someone without a word of english.
I goto KFC every Monday and for weeks even the most simple order
they got wrong over and over and over again. But the ladies that
are working there at least their english is improving (bit by bit)
I got my first correct order 2 weeks ago from KFC.

With all that said I work in a company myself where I am dealing
with people all over the world and they all have a bit of english no
matter where they are from, And I dont speak any foreign language
at all. So Im just an ignorent ol Irish bloke.

Walking through Tesco some days and I feel like I am the only Irish person
in the entire store. All the Staff seem to be Indian now.
Same when I try to ring Dell customer support. They seem to be
very hard workers. You can literly see them sweating and smell the sweat.
(When I worked their years ago I worked hard but never broke a sweat)

I know I am generalising and this will make me sound a bit raciest but......
Another negative side that I have experianced is quite a lot of
the darker skinned poeple from Nigeria??
Especially the women more so than the men is that they
are pig ignorent when it comes to manners.
Have lost track of the amount of
times when these rather larger (very loud)
dark skinned women have pushed past me in
queues for the Bus dragged a huge buggy with about 3 kids, fired
change at the bus driver without a please or thank you and then taken up a load
of space and blocked the isle of the bus with the buggy.
The same women seem to be permanently pregant.
There is a family near me and it appears the wife
seems to be popping the kids out one after another.

I know the Irish can be ignorent too but even the Knackers say
thanks, sound boss and utter some sort of words to the bus drivers.
Also they Irish women folk are no strangers to popping the kiddies out
but it seems to be more noticable when you see lots of foreign women
in their late stages of pregnancy. When I look for Irish looking women
that are pregnant and walking about the place I dont see that many

My girlfriend has said she is constantly being harrassed by darker skinned men
on the bus who are too forward. there may be lots of free seats and they will
sit beside her and start asking for her phone number or to got out for a drink.
She even stopped getting the bus and started getting taxis at one stage.
When the girlfirend goes shopping in Dunnes with her mother they have told
me of quite a lot of times where they are aproached by foreigners trying to
chat them up and get them to go for drinks. So there may be something in
other cultures where the men are more forward I dont know.

~B

Inge Binge

Is it true that if a foreign woman is giving birth to her child here in ireland this child is getting automatically the Irish citizenship regardless if the parents are from Ireland, Germany, Poland or Nigeria? If so - would the irish government evict a Nigerian woman if her child has Irish citizenship by birth?

IB

Jimi-Spandex

Inge Binge wrote:

Is it true that if a foreign woman is giving birth to her child here in ireland this child is getting automatically the Irish citizenship regardless if the parents are from Ireland, Germany, Poland or Nigeria? If so - would the irish government evict a Nigerian woman if her child has Irish citizenship by birth?

IB

IIRC there was a referendum a couple of years ago which changed the rules regarding the right of citizenship to Irish born children of non-nationals.

It resulted from a case where this pregnant chinese woman who was living in England came over to Northern Ireland to give birth to her child. The child would then be able to claim citizenship in the Republic of Ireland under the Good Friday agreement.

Following this the government held a referendum to amend the constitution so that children of non-nationals living here for less than three years could not claim citizenship. This referendum passed and gave to government the power to make laws governing citizenship in this area. I found the following to explain the current rules.

oasis.gov.ie wrote:

Non-national parents of children, born in Ireland on or after 1 January 2005, must prove that they have a genuine link to Ireland. This will be evidenced by being resident legally in Ireland for three out of the previous four years immediately before the birth of the child. On proof of a genuine link to Ireland their child will be entitled to Irish citizenship. Time spent in Ireland as students or asylum-seekers will not be included in calculating non-national parents period of residence in Ireland.

Inge Binge

Jimi-S - thanks for the explanation!

IB

Karmafaerie

That same referendum clarified the laws of the other issue too IB.
If a foreign National living in Ireland for three years has a child, the child does qualify for Irish citizenship, but the parents don't automatically.

MarkBrophy

I think theres been alot of restrained pc crap on this thread. The fact that so many people posted here shows how strongly people feel about the issue. It is a natural response for us to feel threatened when our homeland is invaded by a hundred thousand poles a year. People cant understand why they have these feelings of hostility so they repress them and talk a load of pc crap instead of saying what they really feel.

Our sense of identity is compromised as our culture and our race is diluted. These of course are not necessarily rational thoughts, but instictive. at a subconscious level we need to be reassured that it is under control. Perhaps
restrictions on the numbers of immigrants can do this.

It doesnt matter how pc you are if something is not done hostilities will grow and this will further prevent proper integration.

Before the famine ireland had a population of nine and a half million. The famine killed about a million people and the rest emmigrated to such an extent that the population still hasnt recovered. It would be unfit for the english to complain about us going there as they were occupying our country. USA and south america were the other popular destinations. These nations were built by immigrants. So i dont think our history is an accurate comparison with the polish situation in ireland.

billy the squid

MarkBrophy wrote:

I think theres been alot of restrained pc crap on this thread. The fact that so many people posted here shows how strongly people feel about the issue. It is a natural response for us to feel threatened when our homeland is invaded by a hundred thousand poles a year. People cant understand why they have these feelings of hostility so they repress them and talk a load of pc crap instead of saying what they really feel.

What a load of bollocks to be honest. If people are hostile to something, the last thing they are going to do is lie about how they feel about something..

Our sense of identity is compromised as our culture and our race is diluted.

First off the Polish happen to be white, therefore race has feck all to do with anything. Secondly, what is Irish culture? Is it our spoken tongue (English)? Is it our religion (Italian)? what is it?

These of course are not necessarily rational thoughts, but instictive. at a subconscious level we need to be reassured that it is under control. Perhaps restrictions on the numbers of immigrants can do this.

That would go against the whole spirit of the EU. The spirit of free movement throughout it. We are just as entitled to go to poland as they are entitled to come here.

It doesnt matter how pc you are if something is not done hostilities will grow and this will further prevent proper integration.

The threat of hostilities from the natives says more about the natives than the immigrants if you ask me.

Before the famine ireland had a population of nine and a half million. The famine killed about a million people and the rest emmigrated to such an extent that the population still hasnt recovered. It would be unfit for the english to complain about us going there as they were occupying our country

It would be unfit for the Irish to emigrate to other countries and tried to block people from countries in the same position Ireland was 30, 40 years ago from emigrating to the now rich ireland.

USA and south america were the other popular destinations. These nations were built by immigrants. So i dont think our history is an accurate comparison with the polish situation in ireland.

This reasoning might have made sense at the time of the famine, however, not only were people from Ireland economically migrating to the US up untill the 1990s, there are thousands upon thousands of irish illegals in america. The polish are here legally as EU citizens.

MarkBrophy

The poles are a different race and culture to the irish. Do i really need to prove this point? Would this thread exist otherwise? Do you really believe people have no hostility towards them? Why is it such a hot topic of discussion? How do you explain the existance of this thread?

Inge Binge

Mark, if you follow this thread then you can see it's waste of energy to try to discuss with him and to explain your points. He's flying over your posts, twist your words and just tries to annoy you. Even others here have noticed that...

IB

bullets

Gotta agree with Inge Binge on this one.,
sounds like Trolling to me.

I dont know if Billy is doing this on purpose or not (its not like a moderator to do things like that) maybe he feels strongly on the subject too and I have it all wrong but from reading the posts Its made me form an opinion that our Mod is deliberately trying to
provoke someone so they get angry and maybe break one of the boards guidelines on
posting hence letting him lock the thread!

I for one would like to see more peoples opinions on this thread and maybe hear
some response from other view points.

~B

billy the squid

MarkBrophy wrote:

The poles are a different race and culture to the irish. Do i really need to prove this point? Would this thread exist otherwise? Do you really believe people have no hostility towards them? Why is it such a hot topic of discussion? How do you explain the existance of this thread?

Where did I deny the existance of hostility towards foreign nationals in this country. I did not deny it, I stated that this hostility you speak of is being generated by the natives rather than the foreign nationals. Kindly read my posts before replying to them.

You still haven't defined Irish culture. The Irish are a mish-mash of various other nationalities who bred over the centuries from viking, celt, english, and in the west there is some spannish blood flowing around thanks to survivors of the spannish armada who settled here.

Oh and the thread exists because someone started it. A thread's existance doesn't make it 100 percent accurate. This website exists, do you think the majority of the world think like them?

Also the thread was started by someone who believes that they have more right to be here from Germany than the poles have. That is the way I see it.

Mark, if you follow this thread then you can see it's waste of energy to try to discuss with him and to explain your points. He's flying over your posts, twist your words and just tries to annoy you. Even others here have noticed this

No actually, I know what it is like to be judged based upon ones background rather than based on ones individual acts. which is what you did by making generalisations about first the poles, and then the Romainians.

I dont know if Billy is doing this on purpose or not (its not like a moderator to do things like that) maybe he feels strongly on the subject too and I have it all wrong but from reading the posts Its made me form an opinion that our Mod is deliberately trying to
provoke someone so they get angry and maybe break one of the boards guidelines on
posting hence letting him lock the thread!

Let me assure you that if that was the case, then this thread would have been locked ages ago. The fact that it is not locked proves you wrong. I have been on this site five years and nearly every time a thread like this comes along, it ends up in muppetry. Do a search if you do not believe me.

All i ask is that if you are going to make a generalisation about other nationalities, then provide evidence of it. the "I met this guy down the pub who said" and "I worked with X from Y who said" will just not cut it.

bullets

billy the squid wrote:

Let me assure you that if that was the case,

Thats good to know. It did look as though you were picking on him a little though,
and using quoting of segments of his comments to the exteme. A lot of people
will write a sentence and people can take the words a bit too literally.
(Inge Binge member is a He and not a She???)

billy the squid wrote:

All i ask is that if you are going to make a generalisation about other nationalities, then provide evidence of it. the "I met this guy down the pub who said" and "I worked with X from Y who said" will just not cut it.

I'd find it hard to provide evidence on stuff like this when a lot of the time when
discussing these subjects its based on peoples experiances,
hearing friends and co-workers personal experiances
it could be in the pub with friends or in the canteen at work. Its not the kind of
subject that I have seen STATS and Surveys done on.

Some of Inge Binge points I agree with some I dont but it kinda focus's in on Polish people more so than any other Nations which I found odd or even bit unfair.

Some of your points I agree with but not all.

even my own comments on the thread I was not 100% happy with as they did
look a bit raciest or if somehow I did not look on foreigners as equals and I did not intend or want them to come across that way.

~B

MarkBrophy

Where did I deny the existance of hostility towards foreign nationals in this country. I did not deny it, I stated that this hostility you speak of is being generated by the natives rather than the foreign nationals. Kindly read my posts before replying to them.

so the natives are the problem. That doesnt change my point.

ou still haven't defined Irish culture. The Irish are a mish-mash of various other nationalities who bred over the centuries from viking, celt, english, and in the west there is some spannish blood flowing around thanks to survivors of the spannish armada who settled here.

It is not necessary to define irish culture to validate my point. We are a different race to the poles. These differences are noticeable and that is enough.

Oh and the thread exists because someone started it. A thread's existance doesn't make it 100 percent accurate. This website exists, do you think the majority of the world think like them?

you seem to have missed the point. The existence of this post shows that some people are insecure about the amount of poles in the country. Its got nothing to do with right or wrong or accuracy.

No actually, I know what it is like to be judged based upon ones background rather than based on ones individual acts. which is what you did by making generalisations about first the poles, and then the Romainians.

At no point have i made a generalisation about the poles.

The purpose of my thread was to acknowledge that people do have a problem with the numbers of poles in the country (irrational as it may be). I then offered an explanation for this and proposed that something should be done to ease these peoples concerns.If in doing so i have offended you then tough ****.

billy the squid

MarkBrophy wrote:

so the natives are the problem. That doesnt change my point.

The natives can be the problem. It is the natives who are the ones kicking up a stink about "bloody foreigners"

It is not necessary to define irish culture to validate my point. We are a different race to the poles. These differences are noticeable and that is enough.

I think it is necessary. One has to know what Irish culture is before one can claim that it is being diluted.

you seem to have missed the point. The existence of this post shows that some people are insecure about the amount of poles in the country. Its got nothing to do with right or wrong or accuracy.

Their insecurity is their problem, not that of the polish.

At no point have i made a generalisation about the poles.

The purpose of my thread was to acknowledge that people do have a problem with the numbers of poles in the country (irrational as it may be). I then offered an explanation for this and proposed that something should be done to ease these peoples concerns.If in doing so i have offended you then tough ****.

Other people in this thread have. The problem people have with foreign nationals in this country is that they believe that "they took our jobs." What they don't realise is that they had plenty of time to take up those jobs between the time the "Celtic Tiger" started and the time these ten countries joined the EU. The jobs which the Irish refused to take are the jobs which are now being filled by foreign nationals.

The only soloution is that laws are enforced to ensure that foreign nationals are not paid any less than the Irish. This would remove the incentive for employers to discriminate between Irish and foreign nationals. It would benefit the immigrant as they would not be exploited, and it would benefit the Irish citizen because they would be on a more level playing field when applying for work.

It has bog all to do with culture, it is all down to money. no work means no money, and there is an irrational fear that people from overseas are taking all the work from the Irish. Employee displacement is illegal in this country. and there are legal means to prevent it from happening so their fears are not warranted.

nicowa

Originally posted by billy the squid.
Why single out Romanians and Bulgarians for restrictions, there are 25 other countries in the EU. Why not restrict the Brittish or the French, or dare i say it, the Germans. I am just curious why you should single one or two member states out. There is nothing stopping 200,000 Germans coming to Ireland.

The reason being that Ireland has such a better economy than the countries joining the EU, so do Britain and France and even Germany. That is what is stopping 200,000 Germans and why people are worried about the amount of immigrants that might come.

There is laws to protect immigrants when they are being paid. Its called 'minimum wage'. Everybody is entitled to it.

You dont see the Irish making such an effort to get work theyd rather sit
on their backside watching it grow.

Again generalisation. Not all Irish are like that.

Also they Irish women folk are no strangers to popping the kiddies out
but it seems to be more noticable when you see lots of foreign women
in their late stages of pregnancy. When I look for Irish looking women
that are pregnant and walking about the place I dont see that many

Perhaps you just notice these women more, if they are as you say more noticable.

One has to know what Irish culture is before one can claim that it is being diluted.

Its extremely hard to define any one culture, even if its your own. I this because I'm studying Irish culture at college. Its not just material - what you can touch, eg archtechture, writings, music, but non-material - how people think, act and speak, and I'm not just talking about language. We Irish speak English like the British and American do but we use it in a completly different way, hence the term Hiberno-English.And if you consider the fact that we do have a different culture to the British, our nearest neighbours in Europe and often called our 'cousins', how different are we to people from as far away as Germany and Poland.

I'm not saying these are bad differences or that they are extremely evident. Indeed with the growing worldwide internet community and mass migration and assimilation of other peoples into our culture these differences will soon no longer make a difference.

But people are as a whole afraid of change. We are striving to keep Irish as a language but how will this be possible with the new immigrants who barely speak English let alone Irish.

I'm not saying change is a bad thing, we just need to learn how to assimilate. It was mentioned that Ireland has had invasion after invasion, centuries of colonisation. Maybe this has made us fearfull, we're only just learning to stand on our own two feet - Ireland isn't even 100yrs a free state and up until the EEC (former EU) we still relied on Britain for trade.

I don't mean to be giving us an excuse for our bad behaviour, maybe I'm just spouting off nonsense, mostly I'm trying to back up any statements I make to avoid any chance of billy the squid tearing my points to pieces.

Karmafaerie

mark, you're worried that a few Polish people coming here will damage our culture!
What planet are you on?!!
800 years of occupation and we came out fine, but a couple of years of the Easter Europeans, and we're gonna change over night!
Grow up!
The whole population of Eastern Europe could come here, and I'd still be Irish.
It's very disconcerting for me to hear Irish people talking this kinda crap, because it's the same rubbish that has been spewing out of the likes of Ian Paisley for years!
A lot of posters here, like IB are making valid points, in reference to things like the poor communication skills of those immigrants in the customer service sector.
When people come out with all this stuff about us loosing our sense of identity though, it's basically a load of crap.
Sorry if this seems like a personal attack or anything, it's not, but I just can't understand your reasoning!

MarkBrophy

At no point did i say that i had a problem with them personally. I acknowledged that people do and tried to understand why. I do have my own personal feelings on the matter but am more interested in understanding common mans negative response to the situation.

i quote myself:D

Our sense of identity is compromised as our culture and our race is diluted. These of course are not necessarily rational thoughts

this is from my original post and you can clearly see that i said these werent rational thoughts.

wether you think these people are grown up or not Karmafaerie there are people who think that way. Im not saying that they're right infact they're most definitly wrong but it is a natural response and one worth understanding. It hasnt just happened in ireland. its not just ian pasley and myself. Many cultures have had to deal with this problem.

Anyone else who thinks im a junior ian paisly please read my post again.

7mountpleasant

I think the problem with minority communities in continential europe is the restrictive labour market laws that result in such high unemployment in countries such as Germany and France, this has resulted in disproportionatily high rates of unemployment among the minorities and the socio-economic problems that follow. For this reason I don't think the problems expierienced by Germany as outlined by Inge will occur here. While there will always be a certain amount of abrasion between different ethnic groups I am fairly confident that Ireland will be okay. Had an opprtunity to talk to a few eastern europeans recently and while at first they are very serious and tough looking I think that they are far more like the Irish than we think

1huge1

Karmafaerie wrote:

mark, you're worried that a few Polish people coming here will damage our culture!
What planet are you on?!!
800 years of occupation and we came out fine, but a couple of years of the Easter Europeans, and we're gonna change over night!
Grow up!
The whole population of Eastern Europe could come here, and I'd still be Irish.
It's very disconcerting for me to hear Irish people talking this kinda crap, !

although i agree with you with that a few years of polish wont make the slighst difference
english occupation most certainly change the country not necessarily for the bad but after the english came ireland had changed forever (im not going to go into all that common law and brehon law because that is not what this topic is all about)