Holiday shortened without notice

backboiler

Hello all,

I've recently returned from a package holiday booked with a well-known Irish travel company. This was booked on their web site. The return flight was listed as departing at about 22:30. Due to some problem with a meal request there was a delay in issuing tickets so they had to be picked up in the airport immediately before the outward flight (05:00 on a Monday morning). We offered to pick the tickets up from any office of the travel company but they said this wasn't possible. So, off we head to the airport and the tickets were waiting at the company's desk; no problems there. Later in the week, during the holiday, I checked the tickets to confirm the exact time of the return flight and noticed that it's been moved ten hours forward (to 12:30 the same day). Now that means that we lose an entire day of daylight, between bus transfers and check-in queueing.

They advertised a holiday with certain times and without giving any notice reduced the duration of that holiday by one useful day. Is this within the bounds of legality? Fair enough, flight changes will sometimes occur (though we were informed by the holiday representative that the flight wasn't changed) but this seems unreasonable to me to materially reduce the stay like that.

Any opinions or advice in whether/how to proceed?

gerrycollins

i can respect your post especially with a shortened holiday nothing worse but i suspect something like this is covered in their T&C they seem to cover their tracks everytime under the terms and cond

I suspect they will ask you about printing of conformation from the net and something like this is up to you to check not them to tell you unless the day of the flight has changed not the hour even tho 10 hrs is a bit much if you ask me you could have been stranded there

Sponge Bob

losing a day in 3 weeks is minor , losing a day in 7 is not.

Price your loss and its a small claims court job, eg if you went with kids to sun daylight important as % of holiday . If you went on the lash in Budapest maybe not so important ???

Once you price your loss send them a letter asking for the refund and explain why, Otherwise small claims court.

backboiler

Well, I have the printed confirmation page from the Internet and the original (posted) invoice with the original times on both. On the back of the invoice it says (my emphasis):

Flight details shown on this invoice are for guidance only and indicate the latest planned flight details. Please check your flight tickets when they are issued for actual flight details.

As I said they messed up some meal preference thing that caused the tickets not to be issued until we were about to leave. I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to start checking the accuracy of the return flight details at five in the morning when trying to navigate through busy 'plane station queues.

By the time we got home after the holiday there was a second invoice (presumably because of the meal thing) in the postbox. This had the earlier, "real" flight time on it. Still, it arrived after we had left so that wasn't likely to have been useful.

Kimbot

backboiler wrote:

Well, I have the printed confirmation page from the Internet and the original (posted) invoice with the original times on both. On the back of the invoice it says (my emphasis):
As I said they messed up some meal preference thing that caused the tickets not to be issued until we were about to leave. I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone to start checking the accuracy of the return flight details at five in the morning when trying to navigate through busy 'plane station queues.

By the time we got home after the holiday there was a second invoice (presumably because of the meal thing) in the postbox. This had the earlier, "real" flight time on it. Still, it arrived after we had left so that wasn't likely to have been useful.

I adivse you ring them and ask why you received one while you were away with flight times that are different from the times you actually returned!!

backboiler

It was a week-long sun holiday. There weren't any children involved but the sun does mainly shine during the day, I've noticed . We did come back on a Monday so stuff we were leaving for the last day (yeah, I know, always a mistake) generally wasn't available because it was Sunday.

Thanks for the advice.

foggy

Backboiler,

I've worked in that industry for a while and I don't think you'll get anything out of them. I worked for an internet company that sold package holidays for several big package holiday companies. It is generally included in the terms and conditions that they can change the times and in some cases they even change the departure airport. I had to call people up and change their flights from a knock departure to a Dublin departure and the same with Shannon and cork. And as people had ticked the terms and condition box with online bookings or signed the booking form they had no entitlements to refunds.

backboiler

(Any perceived anger or abuse isn't directed at you personally; I'm thankful for your contribution :cool: )

It seems ridiculous that such broad-ranging terms and conditions can be tacked on to an agreement that's sold in a way that's so specific (flights at these dates and times, staying here, eat this). All this description of what you're buying and then they can go and change damn near everything at will? The case you describe of moving the departure point hundreds of kilometres from the agreed point is a demonstration of how easily they can make a major change within the terms of the agreement.

If a retail business tried such a stunt (by displaying similar T&Cs at the entrance, say) showing an LCD television for €1,000 and then, after you'd paid for it, delivered you an €800 model from a different manufacturer they'd be cited by the ODCA straight away (presumably). Yet, these companies are being permitted to "force" their customers to accept agreements that permit, without penalty, substitutions of a comparable magnitude.

This seems to be an area that hasn't received much useful attention from regulators. It's easy to say somthing like "if you don't like the conditions, don't book the holiday" but when all the companies require the same agreements to be accepted there is a clear imbalance in favour of the travel companies over the consumer.

mel123

I would defo complain in writing to the manager of the agency, i find that unacceptable. Even tho u agree to the terms and conditions, i dont think its right to loose a day on a 7 day break. Sounds a bit strage from the start, u'd wonder was that the flight coming back all along and thats why you didnt get the tickets. I think you at least deserve a voucher or something as compensation.

homeOwner

backboiler wrote:

It seems ridiculous that such broad-ranging terms and conditions can be tacked on to an agreement that's sold in a way that's so specific (flights at these dates and times, staying here, eat this). All this description of what you're buying and then they can go and change damn near everything at will? The case you describe of moving the departure point hundreds of kilometres from the agreed point is a demonstration of how easily they can make a major change within the terms of the agreement.

If a retail business tried such a stunt (by displaying similar T&Cs at the entrance, say) showing an LCD television for €1,000 and then, after you'd paid for it, delivered you an €800 model from a different manufacturer they'd be cited by the ODCA straight away (presumably). Yet, these companies are being permitted to "force" their customers to accept agreements that permit, without penalty, substitutions of a comparable magnitude.

I dont work in the travel industry but being the devil's advocate here, I would say the reason they are allowed to have such terms and conditions is because most of what goes into a holiday is beyond the control of a travel agent that sell holidays. They have no direct control over the hotel you are staying in or the airline that flies you there. They are completely different companies and the travel agent is just that - an agent. They cannot be held accountable for some third party changing the details at the last minute.

They are selling something on behalf of another company.

I know some travel agents charter flights themselves and sell those as holiday packages but again they are dependant on the airline having the flight on time etc....

It is a pain though when your holiday gets screwed up.

gerrycollins

backboiler wrote:

(Any perceived anger or abuse isn't directed at you personally; I'm thankful for your contribution :cool: )

It seems ridiculous that such broad-ranging terms and conditions can be tacked on to an agreement that's sold in a way that's so specific (flights at these dates and times, staying here, eat this). All this description of what you're buying and then they can go and change damn near everything at will? The case you describe of moving the departure point hundreds of kilometres from the agreed point is a demonstration of how easily they can make a major change within the terms of the agreement.

If a retail business tried such a stunt (by displaying similar T&Cs at the entrance, say) showing an LCD television for €1,000 and then, after you'd paid for it, delivered you an €800 model from a different manufacturer they'd be cited by the ODCA straight away (presumably). Yet, these companies are being permitted to "force" their customers to accept agreements that permit, without penalty, substitutions of a comparable magnitude.

This seems to be an area that hasn't received much useful attention from regulators. It's easy to say somthing like "if you don't like the conditions, don't book the holiday" but when all the companies require the same agreements to be accepted there is a clear imbalance in favour of the travel companies over the consumer.

good post but you do have to admit that many people nowadays are moving away from agency either on the high st or net and are booking each stage of their holiday themselves i know i am and my hols are much better now and less time restrictive such as the 5am flight

I can see agencies adding more and more crap to their terms and conds just so they can make more money cause im sure they are losing money over the net at this stage

I do agree however that the industry should be monitored a bit more cause i do feel that the terms and conds are screwing us and they are getting away with murder just because it in their T&C

Litcagral

backboiler wrote:

(Any perceived anger or abuse isn't directed at you personally; I'm thankful for your contribution :cool: )

It seems ridiculous that such broad-ranging terms and conditions can be tacked on to an agreement that's sold in a way that's so specific (flights at these dates and times, staying here, eat this). All this description of what you're buying and then they can go and change damn near everything at will? The case you describe of moving the departure point hundreds of kilometres from the agreed point is a demonstration of how easily they can make a major change within the terms of the agreement.

If a retail business tried such a stunt (by displaying similar T&Cs at the entrance, say) showing an LCD television for €1,000 and then, after you'd paid for it, delivered you an €800 model from a different manufacturer they'd be cited by the ODCA straight away (presumably). Yet, these companies are being permitted to "force" their customers to accept agreements that permit, without penalty, substitutions of a comparable magnitude.

This seems to be an area that hasn't received much useful attention from regulators. It's easy to say somthing like "if you don't like the conditions, don't book the holiday" but when all the companies require the same agreements to be accepted there is a clear imbalance in favour of the travel companies over the consumer.

Probably because many issues regarding flights/travel are beyond the control of the travel company e.g. weather, safety issues, technical delays etc.

It's not as black and white as selling televisions (pun unintended). We went on a week long holiday to Greece last year and were delayed outbound for three days.

JimmySmith

Its commonly referred to in the industry as the 'We have the right to F*ck you up the as*' clause.
And you have to give them that right before they will sell you anything.

I think you're right about the booking flights etc yourself thing.
We have done that the last few years and its been great.

Last year we even decided to fly home from San Francisco rather than LA and it only cost us $50 to change the flight. Also we didnt like one of the hotels we checked into, so we changed. You couldnt do that on a package holiday.

backboiler

@ mel123
That thought about the issuing of the tickets has crossed my mind as well. It's possible that why they delayed it but I'm sure they could as easily have hid behind their contract too. It's just another layer of annoyance.

@ {homeOwner,Litcagral}
Jayzus, every business faces risks beyond their control and they're expected to ride it out. Yeah, weather and the necessary precautions for aeroplane safety are unusual risks but this particular change wasn't due to either. I wouldn't be on here if that had been the case. Fiddling with the specifications of a product you've already sold just to make a few extra quid isn't covered by this understanding. The company may not directly own the hotel but it is sure to wield significant influence on it when it books the place out for a few months. If they were interested they could sort out most problems at source. They have to accept some responsibility (i.e. cost) at some stage. They're allowed pass on far too much as it stands. It's like electing a government on a given platform and then they fail to perform when in power... oh wait...

@ {gerrycollins,JimmySmith}
This is my first (and very likely last) foray into the sun packge holiday scene. I too like the freedom that self-booked arrangements give and have always gone this way in the dozens of other breaks I've taken. This time personal circumstances (, which I won't be going into) over the past few months meant that a no-hassle, inexpensive break was what I was after. The trip certainly fulfilled the latter (at just €250 a head for the week) and was very enjoyable. It's not even the damn money that's the issue here (a seventh of the total is only about seventy quid), it's the sickening feeling that you've unwillingly taken one from behind :eek: and there's nobody to go crying to.


Thanks to all for their respective ins-put. The action of debating something like this is always helpful in creating a consise argument and I feel I'm that bit closer now.

I'll write in and see how I get on. If there's anything interesting out of it I'll come back here, if anyone's interested.

andrea2007

backboiler wrote:

Hello all,

I've recently returned from a package holiday booked with a well-known Irish travel company. This was booked on their web site. The return flight was listed as departing at about 22:30. Due to some problem with a meal request there was a delay in issuing tickets so they had to be picked up in the airport immediately before the outward flight (05:00 on a Monday morning). We offered to pick the tickets up from any office of the travel company but they said this wasn't possible. So, off we head to the airport and the tickets were waiting at the company's desk; no problems there. Later in the week, during the holiday, I checked the tickets to confirm the exact time of the return flight and noticed that it's been moved ten hours forward (to 12:30 the same day). Now that means that we lose an entire day of daylight, between bus transfers and check-in queueing.

They advertised a holiday with certain times and without giving any notice reduced the duration of that holiday by one useful day. Is this within the bounds of legality? Fair enough, flight changes will sometimes occur (though we were informed by the holiday representative that the flight wasn't changed) but this seems unreasonable to me to materially reduce the stay like that.

Any opinions or advice in whether/how to proceed?

Your travel agent has to abide by the Travel and Trade Act by Law under their Liscensing agreement. They must either write to you to inform you of a change or they must phone you at least 24 hours prior to your departure.

Collecting tickets at the airport is a regualr occurence. Check that your Travel agent is licensed and contact the ITAA to complain.

Log on to gov.ie and print off the travel act and quote relevant sections to your travel agent stating you want a refund, read your booking form.