Cork nova network vs Digiweb metro

real_484

Hi guys

I have been using Nova networks for the last couple of months and find it a great service. I have a little niggle, the price of nova when compared to digiweb metro and the download cap.

The price for nova is 40E for 16GB at 1M symetric line, phone using blueface small additional cost, total per month 50E.

Metro for 35E 30GB 3Mb upload, 512Mb download with phone line and web hosting


I am happy with my Nova service but very tempted to change as the 16GB i find too small. Has anyone here changed to Metro from Nova, and how does the service compare?

thanks

Chaz

I am obviously biased here but there are two simple facts.

Digiweb Metro = Licensed
Nova = Unlicensed

PowerHouseDan

Been using Digiweb for a few months now and been more than happy. And being after after being with IBB it would be hard to please me. Digiweb was down Twice for over 10 Hours but overall i cant complain, Even better they dropped there price to 35euro which is Fantasic value. It has my vote anyway. I am in south Cork

fisab

Chaz wrote:

I am obviously biased here but there are two simple facts.

Digiweb Metro = Licensed
Nova = Unlicensed

Possibly an uneducated question but in real terms whats the difference between licenced and unlicenced?

parsi

unlicenced = the men from Comreg with the snips can come along and shut them down ?

watty

Unlicencened Radio means Pirates and Men in Uniform etc.

Unlicenced in Wireless Broadband means "pre licenced public spectrum", i.e. no operator licence. Anyone can buy kit and use the 2.4 and 5.6 bands. So if your broadband on "unlicenced" spectrum doesn't work due to interference, or too many users tough.

Licenced in Wireless Broadband terms means the Operator (ISP) has a licence from Comreg for particular frequencies and places. If there is interference or other operators they complain and Comreg shuts down the offender. Also the Licenced bands use often more professional Equipment (Basestation costing 30,000 Euro instead of 450 Euro) which often supports 100 times as many users at ten times the speed.

Most "unlicenced" band gear is in reality office WiFi gear simply in a weather proof box with some management software. Like a WiFi at home or office it works poorly if more than half a dozen folks try to browse & download at the same time. 54Mbps Wifi rapidly deteriorates to about 50k to 180k per user with 100ms to 2000ms pings as collisions of data occur and packets are resent. An un licenced system can grind to a halt because a few people add their own WiFi access points upstairs for their own home or office network, even if they arn't using the Internet.

When an "unlicenced" base is set up in a new area using WiFi derived technology the first few people that sign up get a great service. As users are added the performance drops exponientially faster. i.e. Double the users from 10 to 20 and the service is more than four times slower, not just half as fast, with 40 Users it is 16 to 20 times slower than with 10. At a certain point the service grinds to a halt spending all the time deciding which users have access rather than transferring data. Old coax basaed Ethernet systems did this.

Some of the Licenced band professional systems can add up to a 1000 users without any slowdown.

PowerHouseDan

Nova Networks is licenced by ComReg (Commission for Communications Regulation) as a provider of telecommunications services in Ireland.

PowerHouseDan

I wouldnt go around sayin these things unless known

Chaz

They are licensed, yes, that was not the point raised.

Digiweb's equipment operates in a Comreg approved licensed band = no interference and significantly improved quality of service.

eoinok

Watty, I am going to take issue with you on this bit of transcript

"Most "unlicenced" band gear is in reality office WiFi gear simply in a weather proof box with some management software. Like a WiFi at home or office it works poorly if more than half a dozen folks try to browse & download at the same time. 54Mbps Wifi rapidly deteriorates to about 50k to 180k per user with 100ms to 2000ms pings as collisions of data occur and packets are resent. An un licenced system can grind to a halt because a few people add their own WiFi access points upstairs for their own home or office network, even if they arn't using the Internet.

When an "unlicenced" base is set up in a new area using WiFi derived technology the first few people that sign up get a great service. As users are added the performance drops exponientially faster. i.e. Double the users from 10 to 20 and the service is more than four times slower, not just half as fast, with 40 Users it is 16 to 20 times slower than with 10. At a certain point the service grinds to a halt spending all the time deciding which users have access rather than transferring data. Old coax basaed Ethernet systems did this"

WHAT A LOAD OF YOU KNOW WHAT.
Actually, it is bordering on liabilist. Moderators should seriously look at taking it down as you obviously to a certain extent, haven't a clue what you are talking about.
Lets take one or two things into account here 1st of all about myself. I am the 1/3 owner of a wireless broadband provider operating in Cork County. It is not IIB, it is not nova and it is not digi metro. I have been involved in the wireless game in some shape or form (hobby -> profesion) for the last four years. So I do know what I am talking about here.

To be honest, I am not going to get involved in a public debate here. No point in wasting my energy. Some of the stuff you have written watty is just pure and simply WRONG. Please check your sources for some facts again before posting something like this.

Moderator's, I think you should remove it as what watty has written here effectively blackens the whole wireless profession as illegal pirates who are chancing their arm with dodgy gear and who dont know what they are doing.

bushy...

warning:setting up a WISP on an unlicenced band seems to cause nervous upsets,ignoring laws of physics,superiority complex and more.....

eoinok wrote:

Moderator's, I think you should remove it as what watty has written here effectively blackens the whole wireless profession as illegal pirates who are chancing their arm with dodgy gear and who dont know what they are doing.

Nice n simple now so theres no more confusion.....
The point is that :
They are chancing their arm with gear that operates in an unlicenced band shared with : baby monitors,cordless phones,wireless cameras,domestic accesspoints doorbells etc ,and should any of these interfere with your network there is nothing you can do about it.

COMPARED to
eg. Digiweb metro that shares its allocation with......nothing else

I would really like to know what type of gear you use .....
osbridge/wraps/wars/routerboard/pc ???
or are we " not going to get involved in a public debate here"

lucernarian

It seems that someone is talking sh*te themselves...

Do you mind telling me who is the liabelled party in Watty's post?

Do you mind telling me why companies fork out thousands and thousands of euro (in the case of 3G, millions) to get their hands on a bit of their own spectrum, even if it is only 10 Mhz or less? I believe the 3G licenses (the B ones) for 35 Mhz of spectrum in total cost over €100 million.

Do you mind explaining why he is "simply wrong"? Otherwise I'm going to suspect that you're a troll...

damien

eoinok wrote:

To be honest, I am not going to get involved in a public debate here. No point in wasting my energy.

Does it take a lot of energy to turn his arguments on their head?

I think you should remove it as what watty has written here effectively blackens the whole wireless profession as illegal pirates who are chancing their arm with dodgy gear and who dont know what they are doing.

That's your interpretation, I didn't read it as that and I'm sure many others wouldn't either. You know, it does you no good demanding that someone's opinion be censored and throwing legalese into your argument.

Sponge Bob

bushy... wrote:

The point is that :
They are chancing their arm with gear that operates in an unlicenced band shared with : baby monitors,cordless phones,wireless cameras,domestic accesspoints doorbells etc ,and should any of these interfere with your network there is nothing you can do about it.

COMPARED to
eg. Digiweb metro that shares its allocation with......nothing else

Bushy summarised the issue well and is absolutely right <fives Bushy>

There are a number of unlicenced bands ....eg you need not ask Comreg for spectrum and pay dearly for it .

Some such as the 2.4Ghz bands are cluttered with stuff like cowshed cams and videosenders and wifi gear and baby monitors , even in rural areas . Only a fool would use them for a network.

Other such as the myriad bands between 5 and 6 Ghz are not cluttered and are a fantastic option in rural areas. Were a carrier to build using those frequencies they could provide an excellent level of service without spending 30k or anythig near that on a base station.

Were a carrier to do so in Cork City the proposition is a bit riskier but they may get away with it .

Neither eoinok nor watty are correct in the absence of those caveats to their declamatory statements.

Could ye do the group hug now lads and agree that ye are both right and yet both wrong

DemonOfTheFall

PowerHouseDan wrote:

I wouldnt go around sayin these things unless known

There's no need to get so snotty if you don't even understand that they're talking about the frequencies being licensed, rather than the companies being licensed to trade.

parsi

Sponge Bob wrote:

B
stuff like cowshed cams

The mind boggles ... actually it is udderly boggling....

watty

In many areas the 5GHz unlicenced band as Spongbob says is not bad, though in urban areas the 5Ghz is getting cluttered too.

Simply put the non-licenced band gear is not pirate, I said that unlicenced means two different things talking about Wireless Data and TV/Radio (where is usually does mean pirates).

But the protocol of almost all gear for unlicensed / "licence free" bands is not suited to large numbers of users. There is no scheduling or slot mechanism and usually no QOS mechanisms built into the protocol.

The unlicenced band gear can be an excellent cheap solution to link a dozen rural homesteads via hop or two to broadband. It will give at least as as good as IBB ripwave. Sometimes better. But in an urband setting it is a disaster and there is no way to ensure the Cow Cam is not upgraded to 108M or 125M on 5GHz band an wipe it out.

Sponge Bob

watty wrote:

In many areas the 5GHz unlicenced band as Spongbob says is not bad, though in urban areas the 5Ghz is getting cluttered too.

where IBB are to be found yes

The unlicenced band gear can be an excellent cheap solution to link a dozen rural homesteads via hop or two to broadband.

its a lot better than that if used properly . it scales way above a few dozen households.

It will give at least as as good as IBB ripwave. Sometimes better.

what are you smoking watty, ripwave is cack . the 5Ghz gear is far better.

But in an urban setting it is a disaster and there is no way to ensure the Cow Cam is not upgraded to 108M or 125M on 5GHz band an wipe it out.

Cows in <cough> Urban areas<cough> watty ? que bueno caca senor ... ...but there are no guarantees and a lot more spectrum

davenova

Hi everyone,

Dave Mc Donald is my name. I am the managing director of Nova Networks. Reading this thread, I decided to finally join Boards.ie. So here we go with post number one:

While reading this thread, I was very disturbed to see a thread discussing our service to contain words like this:

Unlicencened Radio means Pirates and Men in Uniform etc.

.

This prompted me to reply. I would like to stress that in my reply, I am not targeting any single poster, even if I quote them to illustrate my point:


Obviously, anybody can post on Boards, whether they know what they are talking about or not. I'm sure you've all seen people posting highly inaccurate information in a tone that suggests that they regard themselves as "experts", whereas in fact their glaring "clangers" highlight them as tyre-kickers to the discerning reader.

Unlicenced in Wireless Broadband means "pre licenced public spectrum", i.e. no operator licence. Anyone can buy kit and use the 2.4 and 5.6 bands. So if your broadband on "unlicenced" spectrum doesn't work due to interference, or too many users tough.

The term is "licence-exempt" spectrum, not "pre licenced public spectrum" BTW. Also, the 5GHz bands are known as:

5.4GHz (ETSI) band
5.8GHz (ComReg specific) band

A few years ago, ComReg made a unilateral decision to allocate the spectrum from 5.725GHz to 5.875GHz to licence-exempt (or colloquially, "unlicenced") broadband. This progressive move was made to kick-start wireless broadband in this country and has been a roaring success. Operators like Amocom and Digiweb were early adopters of this technology, using proprietary systems to deliver services. Nova Networks started in Cork using proprietary (www.apertonet.com) pre-wimax technology in this spectrum also.

Basically, this allocation means that a LICENCED TELECOM OPERATOR (which we are) can erect broadband transmission equipment to serve the public without applying for a specific spectrum licence for this transmitter AS LONG AS THEY REGISTER THE STATION WITH COMREG. Nothing to do with pirates, nothing illegal. There are STRICT conditions associated with this:

- power outputs are limited to 100mW per MHz on the channel to a limit of 2W
- you may not cause interference to others
- you must register the station with ComReg

If you interfere with somebody else, the ComReg register is designed to provide resolution.

Good RF design practices are used to mitigate interference:

- Do a full spectrum analysis of the coverage area
- Use sector antennae (not omnidirectional) to divide the area into different channels
- Use spectrum-reuse techniques (cellular design)
- Stick to permitted output powers to stop bleed into other sectors/cells

In the 5.4GHz (ETSI) band, all radios must by law include DFS or Dynamic Frequency Selection. A list of channels is stored in the base station. If interference is encountered, the base station will scan other channels for clarity and then instruct all customer receivers to follow it to the a new clear channel, which will go un-noticed by the user.

Most "unlicenced" band gear is in reality office WiFi gear simply in a weather proof box with some management software.

There are many different variants and manufacturers of unlicenced gear. Some use wi-fi, some use wi-fi with proprietary extensions, some use Wimax, some use fully proprietary systems.

THE SPECTRUM (LICENCED OR LICENCE-EXEMPT) USED BY THE EQUIPMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER IT IS WI-FI OR NOT AND VICE-VERSA.

Wi-fi cards are available in 2.4, 5.4, 5.8 and even 3.5 (licenced) spectrum: www.ubnt.com

Proprietary systems are available in all of these bands too: www.apertonet.com (PacketWave, used by us) is an example of a system that is 802.16 but based in licence-exempt OR licenced bands.

There is no correlation between the two.

Please also note that many operators who hold 3.5GHz licences use 5.8GHz and 5.4GHz for the vast majority of their customers! Irish Broadband is an example. For example here in Cork, they hold a 3.5GHz licence but are using these very same "licence-exempt" bands to increase their capacity (Breeze only, not RipWave). There is nothing wrong with this.

Even licence-exempt outdoor wi-fi equipment can be successfully used for broadband, although it has limitations. Many happy Group Broadband Scheme users will testify to this.

As noted above, good RF design techniques allow for successful use of licence expemt bands for commercial delivery of services.

Also in Cork, another local operator has been using Motorola Canopy (which has excellent interference-mitigation techniques) to provide 5.8GHz and 5.4GHz services for years.

When chosing a broadband operator, your decision should not be based on ill-informed and innacurate technical argument.

Best regards,

Dave

Sponge Bob

davenova wrote:

Dave Mc Donald is my name. I am the managing director of Nova Networks. Reading this thread, I decided to finally join Boards.ie. So here we go with post number one:

Welcome Dave.

While reading this thread, I was very disturbed to see a thread discussing our service to contain words like this:

They would not hug when I told them to either

Basically, this allocation means that a LICENCED TELECOM OPERATOR (which we are) can erect broadband transmission equipment to serve the public without applying for a specific spectrum licence for this transmitter AS LONG AS THEY REGISTER THE STATION WITH COMREG. Nothing to do with pirates, nothing illegal. There are STRICT conditions associated with this:

- power outputs are limited to 100mW per MHz on the channel to a limit of 2W
- you may not cause interference to others
- you must register the station with ComReg

If you interfere with somebody else, the ComReg register is designed to provide resolution.

You make comreg out to be a competent impartial and effective regulator . I would disagree totally with that assertion . Theoretically though you are absolutely correct and have summarised the nominal licencing regime circa 5.8Ghz very well.

Otherwise its nice to have another operator in here to discuss things and I will reiterate my outstanding request to eoinok and watty to hug each other NOW !!!!!!

watty

Welcome to DaveNova!

I think one person asked if unlicenced meant pirates and everyone else said no it doesn't.

I think anyone offering working well engineered Broadband conectivity of any kind is to be encouraged, especially given the price and state of the copper network.

At a recent Wireless Expo in London at least 1/2 the Exterior Wireless Broadband on show really was the equivalent of a Wifi Card in a plastic box. Even that does have its uses and I appreciate that there is a lot of better engineered solutions running on Licence Exempt / "Unlicenced" / "prelicenced" bands.

Only two vendors had real fixed Wimax and none had mobile Wimax.

Unfortunately the escapades of one particular Wireless operator has given wireless a poor reputation in some quarters. It isn't representative of what can be achieved on licenced or "unlicenced" bands.

*"prelicenced" in sense that CE mark approved gear is required and a set of rules must be observed. Legal 2.4G FM video senders, legal radio microphones, wireless car alarm keys, PMR446 and legal CB are different examples of "exempt" and "pre licenced" devices for particular bands.

Taxi Radios, Amateur Radio, GSM, Radio Pagers, 3G and Digiweb Metro Broadband are examples of device deployment in Licenced spectrum where the operator has the licence for spectrum often limited to locations. In some cases there is greater flexibility of equipment.

watty

I wondered why people were getting so excited. I left a word out!

Unlicencened BROADCAST Radio means Pirates and Men in Uniform etc.
NOT BROADBAND(i.e. TV and Radio)


Unlicenced in Wireless Broadband means "pre licenced public spectrum", i.e. no operator licence. Anyone can buy kit and use 802.11a,b,g 2.4 & 5GHz bans. So if your broadband on "unlicenced" [= licence exempt] spectrum doesn't work due to interference, or too many users tough. NOTHING PIRATICAL

Licenced in Wireless Broadband terms means the Operator (ISP) has a licence from Comreg for particular frequencies and places. If there is interference or other operators they complain and Comreg shuts down the offender. Also the Licenced bands use often more professional Equipment (Basestation costing 30,000 Euro instead of 450 Euro) which often supports 100 times as many users at ten times the speed.

[ ... REST SNIPPED ...]

There are TWO kinds of "non licenced" spectrum then. On the WiFi 802.11 a,b,g 2.4 and 5GHz there is no recourse about interfernce. The 5.8GHz (ComReg specific) band I agree is different.

real_484

Reading back over the thread I was alarmed the way it was progressing. I started the thread because I had a bit of niggle about the price of Nova and download cap compared to Metro. I am happy with the service just want to have a comparison for future reference. All the talk about pirates is crap, I don’t care once I get a reasonable priced broadband service. The Nova back up, broadband service has being first class and professional for the last six months I have joined them. My installation only took 3 days from time of order. I had tried Digiweb beforehand and it took a month for them to tell me ‘I couldn’t get a signal at that time but give it a few months.’

So my question still stand how does Metro service compare to Nova in relation to cost, speeds, realability, and VoIP in Cork?

watty

Yes never mind all the rubbish about Pirates. Nothing to do with it.

If you can't get a Digiweb Metro signal then there is nothing to compare, and in your situation I'd be glad of Nova.

Here I can only get Dialup, Digiweb Metro or IBB 10G Business solution. So in my situation I'm glad to get Metro.

Anyone in a situation with a choice is very fortunate.

http://www.digiweb.ie/broadband_metro_index.asp?i=80&i2=81&i6=90&zzz=hm
has the pricing and speeds for Digiweb Metro. Unlike most other wireless broadband it comes with a local geographic phone number and two phone ports (ATA) built in on the "modem" for ordinary phones. I'm using a "onetel" twin DECT cordless phone on it. We all also use Skype for text /voice and video calls to other PC users.
Phone Calls to other Metro Geographic numbers are free and otherwise seem to be closer to Talk Talk pricing than Eircom call pricing.

dizzywizzard

davenova wrote:

Hi everyone,

Dave Mc Donald is my name. I am the managing director of Nova Networks. Reading this thread, I decided to finally join Boards.ie. So here we go with post number one:

While reading this thread, I was very disturbed to see a thread discussing our service to contain words like this:


Don't bother even replying to the s*** that comes out of mr. Watty's mouth. The man is so depressed that he actually has a broadband connection he can't give out about availabilty anymore. And DamienM, I heard his last performance on todayFM against the new to be director of Eircom and his most important question was 'and what about LLU'

yawn Damien...... zzzzzzzzzz

With regards to Nova in Cork - I have lots of friends using the service and I have heard no complaints. They rolled out wireless bb before anyone else and have been supplying areas with no DSL for a longtime (about 3 years I think)... Anywayz. Let's finish this post in true watty / boards broabdand style.

All ISP's are crap. Customer service is **** and the only answer to everything is LLU. Right on guys. LLU is the only answer to sort out Ireland bb issues. Tell me then - why is crown alley the most unbundled exchange? Why don't smart - magnet - BT and whoever else has the deep pockets feck off down to the arse end of kerry and start undbundling? Because it doesn't make any commercial sense. So eircom should do it out of the good of their hearts. Course they should.....

Irelandonwaitingtrollleys.org would be much more useful...

Thanks for you time..

Delete as appropriate as I crawl back under my rock

DemonOfTheFall

dizzy fix your post so that the edit tags quote what someone else said, you never closed them...

I just hurt my head trying to figure out what you were trying to say.