ESRI on Migrant Workers

Dr Galen

not a bad idea......we could look at what groupings of workers are needed in the economy at the time and let them get the permits. Much like the US and Canada i thinks?

MadsL

The problem with the current scheme is that if the need arises to slow or stop the 50,000+ per year immigration, it cannot be done.

Nonsense, with the exception of the EU10/Accession countries, everyone else needs a work permit. About three years ago there was quite a slowdown in the number of these issued.

we could look at what groupings of workers are needed in the economy at the time and let them get the permits.

http://www.entemp.ie/labour/workpermits/elements/ineligible.htm

Current categories excluded;

All Clerical and Administrative Positions
All General Labourers and Builders
All Operator and Production Staff
In the category 'Sales Staff'
All retail sales vacancies, sales representatives, Management/Supervisory/ Specialist Sales
In the category 'Transport Staff':
All drivers of - Bus, Coach, Car, Taxi, Fork Lift, etc: (excluding HGV and Articulated vehicle driver - International)
In the category Childcare Workers:
Nursery/ Crèche Workers, Child Minder/ Nanny
In the category 'Hotel Tourism and Catering':
Reception staff, Barpersons
In the category 'Craft Workers and Apprentice\Trainee Craft Workers':
Bookbinder, Bricklayer, Cabinet Maker, Carpenter / Joiner, Carton Maker, Fitter - Construction Plant, Electrician, Instrumentation Craftsperson, Fitter, Tiler - Floor / Wall, Mechanic - Heavy Vehicles, Instrumentation Craftsperson, Metal Fabricator, Mechanic - Motor, Originator, Painter And Decorator, Plumber, Printer, Engineer - Refrigeration, Sheet Metal Worker, Tool Maker, Vehicle Body Repairer, Machinist - Wood (Excluding Plasterers and Aircraft Mechanic/Engineer)

bonkey

MadsL wrote:

with the exception of the EU10/Accession countries, everyone else needs a work permit. About three years ago there was quite a slowdown in the number of these issued.

This does kind of imply that our ability to further limit rates is lessened, and is an implicit admission that the lower-limit of that ability is at the (current) borders of the EU. What percentage of immigration is currently under this "control ability", as a matter of interest?

On a somwhat related point...

A number of claims have been made on both sides about the permanancy or otherwise of immigrants. While I accept fully that long-term trends are hard to determine (given that there is not yet enough data to see trends beyond the mid-term, by force of how relatively young the immigration trend is), I would have thought that there should already be sufficient data to determine if there is some sort of indication in terms of what percentage of immigration is short-term.

Unless I've missed it, this hasn't been supplied by either side. Does it exist? Do we have any idea what the "leaving rate" of immigrants is at all?

gilroyb

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Immigration is happening as a result of economic growth. Economic growth is not a result of immigration.

Economic growth isn't just a yes/no option. It is a rate. Some economic growth does happen without immigration, that is not to say that immigration doesn't add to economic growth. It's called an endogenous variable. One leads to the other which then in turn causes further growth in the first variable.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

The claim that economic growth cannot happen without immigration is unproven and dubious since it always comes from employer pressure groups, who would naturally like to have competition for jobs.

No one has made that claim. People have said that some growth would happen without further immigration. A greater level would happen with immigration. The economy would fall apart if immigration was reversed, ie current immigrants were sent home. A further issue which is raised is that without immigration, in a short time period, too much money would chase too few goods, inflation and anti-competitive forces would rise given the economy as it stands, and in the short to medium term the economy would begin to grow at too slow a rate to support itself.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

It's doubly dubious since fast economic growth was a feature in Ireland for almost 10 years before EU enlargement.

Just so you know, there are other countries outside of Europe. As a second bit of information, people from these countries came here before EU enlargement. These countries aren't just African, Asian or Eastern European. They include America and Australia as well.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Irish worker displacement is a reality. If you don't know it's happening then you're simply lucky enough not to know anybody affected by it. But please don't make life harder for those who are being pushed out of their jobs by claiming as a fact that displacement is a myth.

Good point, how dare people listen to the 'expert evidence'.

I want a job that pays at least a million. If only those thieving CEO's weren't stealing my job I'd be sorted. Irish people displace Irish workers, it's called being better at the job, either because they can work better or do the same job for less. Either one of these options is being better at a job.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

The problem with the current scheme is that if the need arises to slow or stop the 50,000+ per year immigration, it cannot be done. That's where a permit scheme would be useful - Not to 'apply the brake,' but to 'cover the brake,' to use a driving meta4.

Why would people continue to come here 'if the need arises to stop the immigration'?

MadsL

is an implicit admission that the lower-limit of that ability is at the (current) borders of the EU.

Pretty inevitable really; 5 years to go to 2011, I expect Irish immigration to slow a little now that Finland, Greece, Spain and Portugal have followed suit.

1 May 2004: UK, Ireland, Sweden allow in workers from eight new member states, but other 12 older EU states maintain restrictions
Workers from new members Cyprus and Malta do not face restrictions

1 May 2006: Finland, Greece, Spain and Portugal lift curbs on workers from the eight new member states in Central and Eastern Europe

2011: Deadline for all EU members to remove labour restrictions.

section4

[

Good point, how dare people listen to the 'expert evidence'.

I want a job that pays at least a million. If only those thieving CEO's weren't stealing my job I'd be sorted. Irish people displace Irish workers, it's called being better at the job, either because they can work better or do the same job for less. Either one of these options is being better at a job.

it is not called being better at the job.
when you go into spar and you ask for something and the person serving you has to be told about ten times before they understand what you want, that not better than an irish person, thats worse.

and as regards being better workers, where have you people been.
you are implying that the immigranrs are better wokers then the irish yet in america, britain, australia etc etc the irish have always been considered good workers, were all these countries wrong.

the reality is quite simple. the wages for some of these jobs is quite simply not enough for some one who is going to have to spend all the money he earns in ireland so for an irish person if he has about 200 euro disposable income afeter he has paid all his bills what is that worth in ireland, not a lot.

now if te immigrnat has 200 euro disposable income after all expenses, what is that worth if he spends it in his country, in some cases it could be 3 weeks wages, so in real terms the immigrant when he uses the disposable income from his job in his own country is actully making a lot of money in realtion to what he would earn in his own country.

it is quite simple in real terms the immigrants are earning sometimes 10 times what they would earn in their own country and so in effect it is well worth it for them to take any job. if the security guard at dunnes is clearing 500 euro and in poland he can onbly clear about 100 as a doctor how does that make him some kind of hero. he is doing it because in real terms he is earnming four times what he would earn in hisnown country.

If you paid any irish person 5000 euro a week to be a roadsweeper you would have people queing all day long for the jobs,

absolutely nothing to do with who is the best worker, all to do with how much they are being paid.

gilroyb

section4 wrote:

[
it is not called being better at the job.
when you go into spar and you ask for something and the person serving you has to be told about ten times before they understand what you want, that not better than an irish person, thats worse.

Yet you continue to go to this shop over, and over, and over again? So the job gets done, the worker gets paid, and the only person who suffers is the customer who refused to stand up for themselves? I've heard about this happening to people, and yet it has never happened to me. What are you asking for?

section4 wrote:

and as regards being better workers, where have you people been.
you are implying that the immigranrs are better wokers then the irish yet in america, britain, australia etc etc the irish have always been considered good workers, were all these countries wrong.

Your knowledge of history is breathtaking in its ignorance.
No blacks. No dogs. No Irish.
Sound familiar? Obviously they were loved by their adopted countries alright.

section4 wrote:

the reality is quite simple. the wages for some of these jobs is quite simply not enough for some one who is going to have to spend all the money he earns in ireland so for an irish person if he has about 200 euro disposable income afeter he has paid all his bills what is that worth in ireland, not a lot.

now if te immigrnat has 200 euro disposable income after all expenses, what is that worth if he spends it in his country, in some cases it could be 3 weeks wages, so in real terms the immigrant when he uses the disposable income from his job in his own country is actully making a lot of money in realtion to what he would earn in his own country.

So the immigrant comes here, steals a job, gets paid his wage (possibly stealing Irish women along the way), but you seem to be suggesting that he spends all his money in his home country? Immigrants don't just work in Ireland and live in their home country, turns out they are real people who don't just disappear when the Spar closes.

section4 wrote:

it is quite simple in real terms the immigrants are earning sometimes 10 times what they would earn in their own country and so in effect it is well worth it for them to take any job. if the security guard at dunnes is clearing 500 euro and in poland he can onbly clear about 100 as a doctor how does that make him some kind of hero. he is doing it because in real terms he is earnming four times what he would earn in hisnown country.

I presume there is something wrong with this?

section4 wrote:

If you paid any irish person 5000 euro a week to be a roadsweeper you would have people queing all day long for the jobs,

That's a point I made earlier, but thanks for repeating it, it's nice to know I have a fan.

MontgomeryClift

MadsL wrote:

Nonsense, with the exception of the EU10/Accession countries, everyone else needs a work permit.

That was my point exactly. Work permits for accesstion country workers might be useful. Thanks.

Oh, and displacement is happening not because immigrants work harder but because they work for less money. Don't add insult to unemployment by claiming that displaced Irish workers are lazy.

And if somebody can decipher gilroyb's post I might have a go at reading it through.

gilroyb

MontgomeryClift wrote:

Oh, and displacement is happening not because immigrants work harder but because they work for less money. Don't add insult to unemployment by claiming that displaced Irish workers are lazy.

Not sure who you were saying said that. Just to clarify, I said no such thing. I was saying that Irish people are really really good at doing a job, but because of the various options open to them, there are certain jobs that they won't be as willing to do for a certain wage. Immigrants don't have the same opportunities as Irish people and so are more willing to take the lower paid jobs.

MontgomeryClift wrote:

And if somebody can decipher gilroyb's post I might have a go at reading it through.

Sorry if you're having trouble with English, I never considered that perhaps Polish is your mother tongue? I'm afraid I can only post in English, but I'm sure you could hire an interpreter at a very reasonable rate.

MadsL

That was my point exactly. Work permits for accesstion country workers might be useful. Thanks.

Pull out of EU?? U turn on enlargement? Bring them in work permits for the next 5 years? Then what?

Don't add insult to unemployment

What unemployment? Lowest rate in Europe.

Euro-zone1 seasonally-adjusted unemployment2 stood at 8.8% in January 2005, unchanged compared to December 20043, reports Eurostat, the Statistical Office of the European Union. It was 8.9% in January 2004. The EU254 unemployment rate was 8.8% in January 2005, compared to 8.9% in December 2004. It was 9.1% in January 2004.

In January 2005, the lowest rates were registered in Ireland (4.3%),

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_1000703.shtml

MadsL

Sorry if you're having trouble with English, I never considered that perhaps Polish is your mother tongue?

I'm sure most Poles in Ireland can spell accession, I think you are having more trouble.

This thread will be closed again if posters dont stick to the points and avoid personal comments.

dlofnep

Maybe it's just me, but in 23 years, I've never noticed myself being affected by foreign people living here. if anything, I seen benefits. Ever since immigration to Ireland has risen, I've noticed my own city (waterford) expand greatly. New road structures, new city development - I'm pretty sure it's to do with the fact that foreign people are working, while we have some lazy sods here in Ireland laying on their arse all day sponging off the government.

I don't know anything about figures, or politics - All I know is what I see and what I see is only good for our economy. Maybe I just don't fall into the affected category of people? Who knows.