Is the Sunday Indo just for wealthy South Dubliners?

Crubeens

In her Sunday Tribune column yesterday, Nuala O'Faolain wrote about Vincent Browne and his attempts, through journalism, to raise the issues of the inequalities in this country. She compared his long time efforts, with the virtually non-existent attempts of the Sindo to bring to its readers difficult issues :

...he's a voice in the wilderness compared to the influence of, say, the Sunday Independent, whose old-fashioned sensationalism barely disguises an abject worship of wealth and the wealthy. It peddles a version of the good life in which a social conscience, to put it mildly, doesn't figure. It is an influencial version becuase, even if many people wish that Ireland were a more equitable place, they can't imagine - and the Sunday Indo isn't going to help them - how to go about achieving equity without giving up some of their own assets and privileges. And they don't want to do that. And they don't want to be made feel guilty about it either.

These words struck a chord with me - I used to love the Sindo but for some reason I can barely abide it now. It seems to be geared solely towards middle class south Dubliners, and those who don't like to be challenged by an uncomfortable issue.

Any thoughts?

flogen

Me thinks this is all part of the Tribune trying to create a new market for itself, given that its advertising campaign is based 100% (from what I can see) on a weekly fictional comment piece which ridicules Collars Up-types. I'd say The Tribune is trying to be a paper of the people; an Evening Herald for Sundays.
Let us not overlook the fact that both newspapers are owned by O'Reilly, wouldn't it be terrific for him to take two major markets with his two papers? After all, if one of his publications doesn't go for the less affulent markets, then the Ireland on Sunday (aka The Sunday "Irish" Mail) will

mike65

The Turbine sees itself as the paper of the ahem Thinking Left. Even the radio review column by Eithne Tynan is a political tract for soft socialism.

The Sindo is for the 'aspirant' lower-middle classes wherever they may be, those who love money and sensation and fancy the good life. Which is why its so successful!

Mike.

monument

flogen wrote:

I'd say The Tribune is trying to be a paper of the people; an Evening Herald for Sundays.

In all fairness, they are generally aiming “above” that.

At the moment, it looks like the Sindo II – for those who like to think them selves as a wee bit “left leaning”, they like some of the things in the Sindo, but would never admit to such.

flogen wrote:

Let us not overlook the fact that both newspapers are owned by O'Reilly

Yes, it’s just lovely when his papers have spats with each other.

FlutterinBantam

Bottom line....

Sir Anthony doesn't care what paper any one buys...who buys it.... what it purports to represent.....

as long as its one of his!!!!

flogen

flogen wrote:

Let us not overlook the fact that both newspapers are owned by O'Reilly, wouldn't it be terrific for him to take two major markets with his two papers?

Zing

DOLEMAN

It's a business. They don't owe anything to society. All they (rightly so, they're a PLC) care about is making as much money as possible.

Personally I prefer the Sunday Business Post, but on the few occasions I've read the Sindo I've found it to be a fine no-brainer for 30 minutes paper.

If you were talking about RTE news, you'd have a point, as they should take into account all "classes" of people in Ireland.

The Linux Journal is aimed at Linux newbies.
Dr. Dobbs Journal is aimed at mega-nerds.
Womans Way is aimed at bored housewives.
Sindo, aimed at fairly middle class, want to relax on a Sunday folk.

lostexpectation

DOLEMAN wrote:

It's a business. They don't owe anything to society. All they (rightly so, they're a PLC) care about is making as much money as possible.

Personally I prefer the Sunday Business Post, but on the few occasions I've read the Sindo I've found it to be a fine no-brainer for 30 minutes paper.

If you were talking about RTE news, you'd have a point, as they should take into account all "classes" of people in Ireland.

The Linux Journal is aimed at Linux newbies.
Dr. Dobbs Journal is aimed at mega-nerds.
Womans Way is aimed at bored housewives.
Sindo, aimed at fairly middle class, want to relax on a Sunday folk.

The Sindo and the Indo (and their local papers) are most read newspaper in the country by far. Thats a problem.

Scruff

Sindo has turned into a rag. Stopped reading it ages ago. Sunday Business Post is now my Sunday paper of choice, followed by the Sunday Times.

whiskeyman

Scruff wrote:

Sindo has turned into a rag.

thats actually the reason many people buy it.
My mum buys it weekly instead of buying VIP or Hello...
Says alot...

AngryLoner

all sunday papers are gock. You're better off going down to the pub and talking to the lads.

Andrew 83

The Sindo is an absoultely horrible piece of work. This isn't just restricted to its glorification of welath etc. A few weeks ago there was an article called 'Come on girls, put your breast foot forward!' which was advocating women using their bodies to get places. What kind of an example is this? Then there was there article about how safe and great a place Afghanistan is, going as far as labelling it 'a miracle', all in an attempt to put forward a view that the public should feel no sympathy for the hunger strikers in St Patrick's, this despite an article on the same page about deaths in Afghanistan that week.

Every time i pick up the thing there's at least three or four articles that absolutely disgust me.

indiehater

The Sindo is a rag. Most of the so-called articles in it are barely coherent and seem to rely on fancy word-play and silly puns. Also, it attempts to demonise ordinary, legitimate Irish nationalism at every opportunity.For example,the paper supported the Orange march in Dublin, but went ballistic when the legitimate, democratically elected government of this country held the 1916 Commemoration to celebrate Ireland's independence. Hacks such as Eoghan Harris, Ruth Dudley Edwards, Brendan O'Connor, Willie Kealy et al are basically crypto-unionist West Brits who do not, repeat not, reflect the opinions of the people of this island, the majority of whom are proud of our independent status and also desire peace in the North.

These people cannot and will not change how I think and feel.My advice to decent, intelligent people is simple-dont buy this rag.

IronMan

indiehater wrote:

Hacks such as Eoghan Harris, Ruth Dudley Edwards, Brendan O'Connor, Willie Kealy et al are basically crypto-unionist West Brits who do not, repeat not, reflect the opinions of the people of this island, the majority of whom are proud of our independent status and also desire peace in the North.

These people cannot and will not change how I think and feel.My advice to decent, intelligent people is simple-dont buy this rag.

While I agree the lifestyle 'pieces' are a load of malarky, I disagree with your belief that the majority of people do not agree with its political opinion. People are buying the paper because they believe in its political point of view. If it were that repulsive to them, then they would stop buying it. More than any other paper, they have tapped into the silent middle classes.

Not every paper has to be a mouthpiece for Sinn Fein, and its fascist point of view. It has taken the stance that quite a large majority of people in this state are fundamentally opposed to Sinn Fein, and their beliefs. Sales figures would back that up. If you want soft reporting on Sinn Fein, then buy Daily Ireland.

Harris and Edwards write opinion pieces, these sometimes enflame and pose difficult questions. Such is the work of an opinion columnist. It would be extremely unusual for a person to always agree with what they say.

And I have always found that anyone who uses ‘West Brit’ as a form of insult, tend to be from the ‘Brits out, I support Celtic (even though the football is like watching paint dry, its purely a sectarian thing, wrapped up around piss poor football), misty eyed view of the IRA, blood lusty) school of life. You cannot really reason with them. Your just thankful, that there is not a whole lot of them, and their bark has become worse than their bite.

indiehater

Not every paper has to be a mouthpiece for Sinn Fein, and its fascist point of view. It has taken the stance that quite a large majority of people in this state are fundamentally opposed to Sinn Fein, and their beliefs. Sales figures would back that up. If you want soft reporting on Sinn Fein, then buy Daily Ireland.

Harris and Edwards write opinion pieces, these sometimes enflame and pose difficult questions. Such is the work of an opinion columnist. It would be extremely unusual for a person to always agree with what they say.

Quite true Ironman, but the point I was trying to make is that the Sindo is attempting to lump ordinary national pride and legitimate patriotism into the same boat as terrorism.Their rabid anti-1916 stance smacks of Thatcherism at its worst,we are an independent nation who won freedom from a decadent colonial power and a lot of the "opinion pieces" seem to have a problem with that. As well as this, other writers suggest that the Irish language be done away with.This is a "cultural cringe" or some form of self-hatred stemming from ignorance.
I am not a dissident republican, I am an ordinary guy who is proud to be Irish. The paper, however, woudnt understand. I fully support the papers' opposition to SF/IRA, but please could it realise that everyone who sees differently to them isnt a Provo.
I feel that the people of this country deserve a better, more highbrow analysis in the long run (I'm a Business Post reader).
Also, the papers' accuracy has been called into question numerous times, especially after the Lawlor debacle, but it weathers the controversy because the general public has Attention Defecit Disorder. The vacuous 03 Team was yet another example of "filler" reporting, and some sections of the Sindo are nothing but tabloidese and innuendo.
rsvp

empirix

Its a rag...started going down hill when they hired a whole load of "new up and coming" journalists to show what the young were getting up to , was it the 00 team or something, they were all obviously mental as all the stories were a bit mental and made up,utter crap....and now with Kevin Myers on board..things can only deteriorate

flogen

empirix wrote:

Its a rag...started going down hill when they hired a whole load of "new up and coming" journalists to show what the young were getting up to , was it the 00 team or something, they were all obviously mental as all the stories were a bit mental and made up,utter crap....and now with Kevin Myers on board..things can only deteriorate

Isn't Myers on the Irish Indo; or is his deal covering the Sindo as well?

empirix

flogen wrote:

Isn't Myers on the Irish Indo; or is his deal covering the Sindo as well?

Not sure....stopped buying them a while back, i read the Examiner these days - not bad

mike65

Andrew 83 wrote:

Every time i pick up the thing there's at least three or four articles that absolutely disgust me.

There's a simple cost free solution to this problem.

Mike.

Schuhart

For those who like facts, there’s some circulation figures here.

Crubeens wrote:

I used to love the Sindo but for some reason I can barely abide it now. It seems to be geared solely towards middle class south Dubliners, and those who don't like to be challenged by an uncomfortable issue.

I’d query the linkage between South Dublin middle class and people who don’t want to be challenged by uncomfortable issues. When you consider things like the position taken by that same South Dublin middle class on issues like the Divorce referendum, and the openness to new parties and candidates, I think you’ll have to admit that we’ve a bit of a history of challenging issues that others find uncomfortable.

This means I have trouble seeing an agenda that links South Dublin attitudes to the large tracts of the country that return Fianna Fail and Fine Gael deputies without fail, seeming to give a great deal of weight to the extent a candidate is based in the immediate locality. I wondered if you need to challenge some uncomfortable issues yourself.

flogen

let's not turn this into a pissing contest between the North and South sides of Dublin; I'm happy enough that Crubeens is not saying that Southsiders don't like the uncomfortable issues (note the 'and' between the two groupings) and even if he was, that distinction is a matter of personal opinion (if he believes southsiders can't deal with uncomfortable issues, so what?) and not the topic on discussion here.
I think this is more a case of is the Sindo targetting itself towards Wealthy Dubliners, not all of whom live on the southside, but the majority of which do (unless poor or average earners are somehow bagging the higher-priced housing on the South)

Andrew 83

mike65 wrote:

There's a simple cost free solution to this problem.

Mike.

I like to keep generally informed of what they're saying given their large circulation. It's not enough to not read it when it's polluting other people's views.

Schuhart

flogen wrote:

I think this is more a case of is the Sindo targetting itself towards Wealthy Dubliners, not all of whom live on the southside, but the majority of which do (unless poor or average earners are somehow bagging the higher-priced housing on the South)

I'm not convinced at the suggestion that the way to capture the market you have in mind is to present them with bland, unchallenging material. If fact, the Ross O'Carroll Kelly is more likely to appeal to that 'South Dublin' (if that's the term we want to use) market - 'boggers' and 'skangers' are less likely to relate to teh comedy in his mother's campaign to move Funderland to the Northside.

At present, that 'South Dublin' market is not really being met, as the Turbine is a bit scattery. The Sunday Business Post does its best, but I think its still basically written by four people. This goes a distance to explaining why the Sunday Times snaffles so much of the market.

flogen

Schuhart wrote:

I'm not convinced at the suggestion that the way to capture the market you have in mind is to present them with bland, unchallenging material. If fact, the Ross O'Carroll Kelly is more likely to appeal to that 'South Dublin' (if that's the term we want to use) market - 'boggers' and 'skangers' are less likely to relate to teh comedy in his mother's campaign to move Funderland to the Northside..

It's up to the Sindo and Tribune etc. to decide how best to capture the markets they aim for.
And given that the Ross O'Carroll Kelly character is a running dig at the upper classes of Dublin, written by someone who makes no bones about his dislike of them, I would say it is a joke for the less wealthy at the expense of the southside stereotype, not the other way around.

Schuhart

flogen wrote:

It's up to the Sindo and Tribune etc. to decide how best to capture the markets they aim for.

Indeed, but I'm saying that running unchallenging material will not get the audience suggested.

flogen wrote:

And given that the Ross O'Carroll Kelly character is a running dig at the upper classes of Dublin, written by someone who makes no bones about his dislike of them, I would say it is a joke for the less wealthy at the expense of the southside stereotype, not the other way around.

I think you are missing the point of who such a satire will likely appeal to. But clearly if that's your opinion, then that's your opinion.

flogen

Schuhart wrote:

Indeed, but I'm saying that running unchallenging material will not get the audience suggested.[/quotes]

Seems to work for the Sindo.

I think you are missing the point of who such a satire will likely appeal to. But clearly if that's your opinion, then that's your opinion.

I don't think so, but I'm sure plenty of people at whom the comic strip satires find it funny too

Schuhart

flogen wrote:

Seems to work for the Sindo.

The Sunday Times share of the market would have to be much lower before I was convinced the Sindo were successfully targetting this portion of the market. But clearly, there's no denying the fact that they sell a lot of newspapers to all kinds of people.

flogen wrote:

I don't think so, but I'm sure plenty of people at whom the comic strip satires find it funny too

At the end of day, humour and its interpretation is very personal. But, apart from my own view/bias/wild guess, well over half of the Turbine's readership seems to be ABC1 - which might indicate who their offerings attract.

easydog

Would never buy this paper. Would only read it in a waiting room just to have a big laugh at them all :-)

Nightwish

I used to read the Tribune when it was good ie when Matt Cooper was editor. Its pure ****e now, since it was "relaunched". The Sindo bugs me because it really does cater for the south Dublin middle class. I dislike the pointless "pretty girl" pics they put on the front page and how that somehow Robyn O Reilly's latest charity lunch is somehow news :rolleyes:

Schuhart

Leaving aside whether pretty girl pics and charity lunch reports are devoured with relish in Mount Merrion, I found your post raising questions in my mind.

In your mindset, is there a middle class outside Dublin? Does it have remarkably different features to its Dublin classmates? Does the Indo want to sell them papers too?

Partly I'm asking because I recently reread John Waters 'Jiving at the Crossroads'. Inter alia, I was struck by his comment that 'Dublin 4' was less about a class identified with a particular location and more that part of the collective Irish mind that yearned for change.

The comment made me speculate at the extent to which the whole 'Dublin Dublin Dublin' thing might be a way that regional elites have of frustrating progress, by suggesting that change (which would threaten their standing) is a 'foreign' thing from this scary monster 'Dublin'.

simu

Schuhart wrote:

Leaving aside whether pretty girl pics and charity lunch reports are devoured with relish in Mount Merrion, I found your post raising questions in my mind.

In your mindset, is there a middle class outside Dublin? Does it have remarkably different features to its Dublin classmates? Does the Indo want to sell them papers too?

Partly I'm asking because I recently reread John Waters 'Jiving at the Crossroads'. Inter alia, I was struck by his comment that 'Dublin 4' was less about a class identified with a particular location and more that part of the collective Irish mind that yearned for change.

The comment made me speculate at the extent to which the whole 'Dublin Dublin Dublin' thing might be a way that regional elites have of frustrating progress, by suggesting that change (which would threaten their standing) is a 'foreign' thing from this scary monster 'Dublin'.

Well, there's definitely a middle class in Cork and Galway as well, anyway. All over the country, I'd say too.

As for the whole Dublin 4 stereotype - it seems to have originated in Dublin City, from what I've seen. People from outside Dublin might have some familiarity with the idea but less so than Dublin people themselves. Also, people from outside Dublin are mostly very keen on the sort of change that the D4 stereotype represents - fancy designer goods, travel and other lifestyle commodities. You also hear of the stereotype of Dublin 4 being used in a different sense i.e. referring to liberal views considered to be prominent in the media (pro-divorce and pro-choice etc) but I think it's more the preserve of religious fanatics and conservatives than something the average Irish person would worry about.