Ejectors???

newby.204

Can someone explain, extractors, ejectors and selective ejectors to me please.

I understand selective ejectors, you fire a shot that shell is ejected the second one stays in the breach.

But what do the other two mean??
Is there a visible difference when looking at the breach of on O/U between the three

Chopperdog

Virtually all ejecting shotguns are selective ejecting in that only the fired barrel will eject on opening the breech.

Extractors are more concerned with the working action of semi-automatic firearms and is a phrase generally unused regarding breakaction shotguns.

Are you possibly getting confused with selective firing of barrels, i.e. selective or non selective trigger?
(If your head is not already wrecked, it will be now.....)

macnas

an extractor is that little hook on the breach face of your 391 that grips the cartridge when the bolt is going backwards after firing, the ejector is that little piece of metal that, in conjunction with the grip of the extractor flicks the spent cartridge out through the ejection port.

on a break action shotgun like your O/U the ejector works a little differently as you can see,(not really knowing how to explain it). Break actions are either ejectors or non ejectors and I'll bet you can guess what the latter won't do. I think you may be getting mixed up between selective barrels and ejectors.

Anyway save yourself the hassle, don't sell your 391.

It might be better if you post these questions in your purchasing an O/U thread rather than having basically the same topic fragmented over the forum.

Sparks

Chopperdog wrote:

Extractors are more concerned with the working action of semi-automatic firearms

And bolt-action firearms.

The two black inward-facing claws on the bolt face are the extractors - when you work the bolt, they drag the spent case out of the breech and chuck it out of the action.

Rew

Sparks wrote:

And bolt-action firearms.

The two black inward-facing claws on the bolt face are the extractors - when you work the bolt, they drag the spent case out of the breech and chuck it out of the action.

*cough* the ejector chucks it out of the action.

Sparks

Rew wrote:

*cough* the ejector chucks it out of the action.

Hmmm. Yeah. It's not a seperate process though - the extractors drag the cartridge over the ejector (which is just a litte ramp in my anschutz) and that action flicks the casing out of the action.

We could use an animation for this

Rovi

Here's how I've always understood it (very much open to correction!)-

In 'sliding bolt' firearms (turn bolt, full/semi-automatic, pump, lever, etc)-
An extractor is a hook or claw-like device on the face of the bolt, which engages the rim on the rear of the cartridge case in order to extract it from the chamber as the bolt moves rearwards. It is always on the side of the bolt closest to the ejection/loading port (the hole in the receiver where the empties come out, or ammunition is loaded in some circumstances).
An ejector is a finger or prong-like device (or sometimes even a spring) fixed to the inside of the receiver. It usually lives in a groove along the length of the bolt on the opposite side to the extractor, and the bolt slides forwards and back over it. As the bolt reaches the end of its rearward travel, the ejector appears out of its groove and flicks (ejects) the empty cartridge case out of the ejection port.
Some ejectors are bolt-mounted, in that they are mounted in the bolt. They're usually a little spring-loaded plunger that leaps forward when the bolt reaches the end of its rearward travel, ejecting the empty case in the same way as above.

In 'break-action' firearms (Side by Side and Under/Over shotguns, most commonly in this country)-
The extractors are the 'cut-out' sections of the breech face that move out from the chamber as the gun is opened, carrying the cartridge cases with them.
They can work in two ways, and I've always referred to them as either manual extractors or automatic extractors.
Manual extractors lift the cartridges out of the chamber so that they can be removed by hand, irrespective of whether they've been fired or not.
If the barrel has been fired, automatic extractors stay in their 'closed' position until the action of the gun is fully open, at which point they are released under spring pressure and they eject the empty cartridge case out over the shooter's shoulder (or wherever ). If the barrel hasn't been fired, they behave as manual extractors.

I've often heard Automatic Extractors referred to as Ejectors, but I'm not comfortable with the term, as technically they're just extractors that operate automatically. If anything, the sear/spring arrangement that makes it all work is actually the ejector, but it's all getting pretty nit-picky at that stage. :rolleyes:


Anyhow, that's my take on it, feel free to rip it to shreds.

Rew

Sparks wrote:

Hmmm. Yeah. It's not a seperate process though - the extractors drag the cartridge over the ejector (which is just a litte ramp in my anschutz) and that action flicks the casing out of the action.

We could use an animation for this

They are seperate devices and process. The over all process is all part of cycling the action alright and they work together to acomplish this. If you think about it failure to extract and failure to eject are too differnt problems that will result in differnt stoppages.

Chopperdog

Rovi wrote:

Anyhow, that's my take on it, feel free to rip it to shreds.

Sound good to me Rovi, looks like you paid attention the day they gave the extractor/ejector lesson.:D

Rew

Rovi wrote:

Anyhow, that's my take on it, feel free to rip it to shreds.

Sounds good. Only thing id say is that the sprung pin style ones on the bolt face have the round under pressure from the moment the action is closed. The breech and extractor hold the case against the pin and spring untill it reaches the ejection port/way and it then pushs it out.

The Bren gun has a fixed post style ejector that sits in a groove on a bolt. You can use drill rounds or spent casings to demonstrate the ejection process really well with it all striped down.

You can take a bolt and a spent casing a stick it in the bolt face to get a good idea of how it all works as well.

newby.204

Thanks for clearing that up was wrecking my head lads, i see what your talking about on the 391, its like a little hook, anyway thanks for the help

Rovi

Rew wrote:

Sounds good. Only thing id say is that the sprung pin style ones on the bolt face have the round under pressure from the moment the action is closed. The breech and extractor hold the case against the pin and spring untill it reaches the ejection port/way and it then pushs it out.

My Remington 700 has such an ejector, and I've just tried it with both a spent case and a snap-cap.
It's exactly as you say Rew, the case is pressed out towards the ejection port side all the way along the inside of the receiver until it can spring clear.

Double Barrel

How does the saying go, a picture is......



Extractor on the left - and - Ejectors on the right.



Ejectors are fittings - inset - into the breech end of a pair of barrels of a break-open gun that kick out fired shells, while only raising unfired shells enough to be removed by hand. One can recognize ejectors because the fitting is split in two---one ejector for each barrel.

An extractor on the otherhand is a solid fitting inset into the breech end of a pair of barrels of a break-open gun. When the gun is opened the extractor lifts the cartridges so they may be removed by hand, -- ONE extractor taking care of both barrels together.

Rovi

Ah ha!
That makes more sense than my incoherent ramblings.

Thanks for that Double Barrel.

Rovi

Rovi wrote:

Here's how I've always understood it (very much open to correction!)-

In 'sliding bolt' firearms (turn bolt, full/semi-automatic, pump, lever, etc)-
An extractor is a hook or claw-like device on the face of the bolt, which engages the rim on the rear of the cartridge case in order to extract it from the chamber as the bolt moves rearwards. It is always on the side of the bolt closest to the ejection/loading port (the hole in the receiver where the empties come out, or ammunition is loaded in some circumstances).
An ejector is a finger or prong-like device (or sometimes even a spring) fixed to the inside of the receiver. It usually lives in a groove along the length of the bolt on the opposite side to the extractor, and the bolt slides forwards and back over it. As the bolt reaches the end of its rearward travel, the ejector appears out of its groove and flicks (ejects) the empty cartridge case out of the ejection port.
Some ejectors are bolt-mounted, in that they are mounted in the bolt. They're usually a little spring-loaded plunger that leaps forward when the bolt reaches the end of its rearward travel, ejecting the empty case in the same way as above.

In 'break-action' firearms (Side by Side and Under/Over shotguns, most commonly in this country)-
The extractors are the 'cut-out' sections of the breech face that move out from the chamber as the gun is opened, carrying the cartridge cases with them.
They can work in two ways, and I've always referred to them as either manual extractors or automatic extractors.
Manual extractors lift the cartridges out of the chamber so that they can be removed by hand, irrespective of whether they've been fired or not.
If the barrel has been fired, automatic extractors stay in their 'closed' position until the action of the gun is fully open, at which point they are released under spring pressure and they eject the empty cartridge case out over the shooter's shoulder (or wherever ). If the barrel hasn't been fired, they behave as manual extractors.

I've often heard Automatic Extractors referred to as Ejectors, but I'm not comfortable with the term, as technically they're just extractors that operate automatically. If anything, the sear/spring arrangement that makes it all work is actually the ejector, but it's all getting pretty nit-picky at that stage. :rolleyes:


Anyhow, that's my take on it, feel free to rip it to shreds.

On the Walther KK200 (.22 target rifle) I use, the round will not be ejected from the barrel unless it has been shot... I always thought it was just jamming but from what you say, is this intentional?

This strikes me as a design flaw as during a match or training I sometimes have to clear the barrel.. and poking the back of a rim fire cartridge with a pliers / screw driver to remove the live round is something that I am not too comfortable with.

Rovi

original_psycho wrote:

On the Walther KK200 (.22 target rifle) I use, the round will not be ejected from the barrel unless it has been shot... I always thought it was just jamming but from what you say, is this intentional?

This strikes me as a design flaw as during a match or training I sometimes have to clear the barrel.. and poking the back of a rim fire cartridge with a pliers / screw driver to remove the live round is something that I am not too comfortable with.

I would've thought that the extractor should operate on the cartridge no matter whether it was fired or not. All mine do, as far as I can remember.
Anyone know different?
Nothing about those fancy-pants target rifles would surprise me, to be honest

civdef

Match rifles have very tight chambers and the unfired round not extracting thing happens with most of them, even 10/22s with match chambers.

Double Barrel

I did not see this request the first time around.

Single Selective Trigger is as it's name implies a single trigger with some sort of switch to change the order of firing of a pair of barrels. The switch can be just behind the trigger or part of the function of the safety catch or switch. A single selective trigger although slower and not as positive as double triggers, those who are familiar with their barrel selector can choose their choke with ease.

Single [non-selective] Trigger - Some double guns - usually with the same choke configuration (Sk&Sk - F&F) - are equipped with a single non selective trigger. Single triggers are always in a constant position, pull the trigger, release, and pull again. A single trigger is usually easier for people used to pump, semi-automatic and bolt-action guns. A plain single trigger is simpler and usually more reliable than a selective single trigger.

Double Triggers - one for each barrel. An inescapable fact of double triggers is that the shooter truly has two guns in one. If one barrels fails, if one trigger or lock malfunctions, one need only to pull the other trigger. They are simpler in design, therefore making the gun lighter and more reliable. They are less prone to double-firing. In the hands of an experienced shooter they are faster. They allow immediate selection of which barrel to fire - the immediate selection of the pattern to throw - even while the quarry is flushing.

As if you have not guessed by now,. ...:D ... I am partial to side by side guns with double triggers.

Double Barrel

Rovi,
I enjoy the ramblings, makes the world go round.