American's Speak Up

metrovelvet

bonkey wrote:

Of course, it hasn't always been this way. Look at your history books concerning immigration into the US in (say) the 18th and 19th centries. Marvel at the open-arms welcome the Chinese received in the US when they arrived and worked on projects such as railroad-building. Look how the Irish were feted like non-monarchial kings when they came in their droves. In all cases, large numbers of a culture came to the US, left their heritage on the boat, and within a single generation ceased to exist as an identifiable foreign culture.

Are you being sarcastic? Please tell me you are.

bonkey wrote:

You're not suggesting that Irish people living in Ireland leave their heritage in the past, where it belongs, are you?

No of course not. Its up to them what they want to do with it. It's a different country with different protocols and a different history. But as the shape of Irish identity changes [with increasing immigration], so will the heritage of the nation and this will become an increasingly complex question.

What Im saying is that in the US, which has a legacy inherited from pioneers, if you want to move forward and keep on moving there are things you have to let go of in order to increase mobility.

3rd of 4th generation Americans dont have to do half the work that 2nd generations do, in terms of negotiating for their parents. For example, they most likely have parents who speak English, they have parents who have gone through the school system so they know how it works, they know how to fill out tax forms, etc etc and dont need to rely on their kids to do it. So I mean pivot in very very practical way.

johnthesavage

The word "patriotism" could be replaced with "xenophobia" in that email, without altering the meaning.

Perhaps the author would also like a line of the poem on the plaque on the statue of liberty altered to read "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses - so long as they speak english and don't look too foreign"

DamoKen

bonkey wrote:

Not true. They are where you think the pivot should be. The entire problem stems from the reality that there is no such clean pivot. Some migrants blend into their new society. Some don't.

It doesn't break down on simple cultural stereotypes.

Of course, it hasn't always been this way. Look at your history books concerning immigration into the US in (say) the 18th and 19th centries. Marvel at the open-arms welcome the Chinese received in the US when they arrived and worked on projects such as railroad-building. Look how the Irish were feted like non-monarchial kings when they came in their droves.

forgot to ask in my last post, what history books have you read? first I've ever heard of it, non-monarchical kings? hmmm.

bonkey wrote:

In all cases, large numbers of a culture came to the US, left their heritage on the boat, and within a single generation ceased to exist as an identifiable foreign culture.

Chinatown? Little Italy? Queens?..., doesn't really sound like leaving your heritage on the boat? Personally I've always thought the exact opposite, it's the mishmash of different cultures and heritages that can make America such an interesting place, you don't acheive this by forgetting your culture, and yes, this is one of the points the original article fails to grasp. It's this very thing that has made America what it is.

Velvet Vocals

bonkey wrote:

Don't you really mean Immigrant heritage should be left in the past where you think it belongs?

jc

Exactly!!! that's totally the vibe I'm getting from metrovelvet. Sorry Meto, please don't take this as an insult or anything because I really don't mean it that way!!! It's just that from what you have said in your last few posts it seems like you are speaking primarily about your self and your own situation, which is not to say that is wrong, but what we are discussing here is wider then just personal experiences.

I'm sure that there are huge numbers of people that have had the kind of experience that you describe, their parents don't want to let go of "the old country" and they are trying to integrate and there are complications... so they immerse them selves in "American Culture" but that in no way means that the past should be pushed out... that is why those peoples parents are so desperately trying to hold on to the old ways, because without them they would be forgotten, and how sad would that be!!!!


By the way... you should watch My Big Fat Greek Wedding.... it's pretty funny!:)

Velvet Vocals

johnthesavage wrote:

Perhaps the author would also like a line of the poem on the plaque on the statue of liberty altered to read "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses - so long as they speak english and don't look too foreign"

Ayla

What an interesting forum...

I am American. Not second generation or "related to someone to knows someone who is," but a true American. I was born there, and grew up there, as did my parents, their parents and (for the most part) their parents before them.

And, because of my husband (who was born and raised here), I moved to Ireland in January 2005. So I understand immigration (from the point of the Americans) and emmigration (from the point of the Irish).

I'm always interested to hear what the world thinks of Americans, b/c Yanks have a (well-documented) tendency to forget about the rest of the world. It's nothing deliberate or done with any ill-intent, but it's easy to forget that anything happens outside of our *really* big island. So, now living in Ireland, it's interesting to gain a different perspective on the world that I grew up in.

I find some of your points interesting, some infuriating, and some that have made me think. I believe that everyone has a right to live exactly how they choose, regardless of their cultural, religious or personal beliefs. I think there's a lot to be gained by learning about others and what makes them tick.

And yes, America is, by its very history, a nation based on immigration and cultural blending. I would like to think that this is for the good of all who choose and agree to participate in that system, but for it to work everyone has to get along. They don't have to agree on everything, they don't have to be best friends, but they do have to respect the fact that everyone has their own ideas about life. There are many places in the US where this works well and everyone manages to co-exist.

It's not perfect, and there's a lot that can be learned to make it better, but I can't think of any nation on earth that's figured it out completely. I challenge all of you to provide one example of a perfect, utopian, society where everyone gets along and respects everyone's differences. As unfortunate as it is, I think this is the one basic human characteristic that we all share...the struggle to prove oneself better (or more right) than our neighbor.

God help all of us if you think Ireland's beyond this. The dust of "The Struggles" are barely settling, and now all we hear about is emmigration into Ireland and how "the natives" hate the fact that folks are moving in from Africa, the EU and elsewhere. They're already getting their toes stomped on because the Polish are willing to work in jobs that the newly wealthy Irish are too good for, and the African people, here to escape hardship are trying to sink into local culture.

It's history repeating itself. In a generation or two, some nation will be having this same discussion about how the Irish are so "intolerant" of immigrants.

tallus

Ayla wrote:

What an interesting forum.
It's history repeating itself. In a generation or two, some nation will be having this same discussion about how the Irish are so "intolerant" of immigrants.

Are you psychic Ayla? or do you know something that I dont about what's going to happen In Ireland in two generations?

Velvet Vocals

Ayla wrote:

What an interesting forum...

I am American. Not second generation or "related to someone to knows someone who is," but a true American. I was born there, and grew up there, as did my parents, their parents and (for the most part) their parents before them.

Are you a native American?

Ayla wrote:

I'm always interested to hear what the world thinks of Americans, b/c Yanks have a (well-documented) tendency to forget about the rest of the world.

Unless of course they are trying to "Bring democracy" somewhere

Ayla wrote:

I challenge all of you to provide one example of a perfect, utopian, society where everyone gets along and respects everyone's differences. As unfortunate as it is, I think this is the one basic human characteristic that we all share...the struggle to prove oneself better (or more right) than our neighbour.

This isn't about trying to find utopia, or even about saying that Ireland/the Irish people are better at intergrating or blending as you put it, then the Americans (we are quite obviously not). It is about responding to an email written by an American and distributed by many Americans to other Americans expressing views that I for one consider wrong and harmful

Ayla wrote:

God help all of us if you think Ireland's beyond this. The dust of "The Struggles" are barely settling, and now all we hear about is emmigration into Ireland and how "the natives" hate the fact that folks are moving in from Africa, the EU and elsewhere. They're already getting their toes stomped on because the Polish are willing to work in jobs that the newly wealthy Irish are too good for, and the African people, here to escape hardship are trying to sink into local culture.

It's history repeating itself. In a generation or two, some nation will be having this same discussion about how the Irish are so "intolerant" of immigrants.

Yes and hopefully by opening a discussion like this and others we will be able to learn from others mistakes and realise that we should not behave in the same way.

Ayla

Well, I'll answer this way...

America was founded with the motto "Land of the Free"

Ireland has a reputation for being a very welcoming, friendly nation, but can anyone deny that radical change has happened in the last generation? Not saying that the Irish are any less wonderful than they've always been, but change brings about new fears, new phobias and new problems (along with all of the good as well).

So, if America's changed "so radically" from its initial open-arm policies, what makes the Irish think they're immune?

tallus

Ayla wrote:

Well, I'll answer this way...

America was founded with the motto "Land of the Free"

Ireland has a reputation for being a very welcoming, friendly nation, but can anyone deny that radical change has happened in the last generation? Not saying that the Irish are any less wonderful than they've always been, but change brings about new fears, new phobias and new problems (along with all of the good as well).

So, if America's changed "so radically" from its initial open-arm policies, what makes the Irish think they're immune?

We never claimed to be immune, the OP was about an email written by an american so that's what we were focusing on.

J.R.HARTLEY

bonkey wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole Christmas thing was mostly modified a long time ago in the US in deference to their Jewish citizens.

Are the Jewish contingencies in the US also being told to sod off by the author?

jc

thats a very good point as it was the jewish controlled media who started "happy holidays" etc

on an interetsing side note, nearly all the classic christmas songs, including white christmas were written by jewish people,

Ayla

Saint Something...

Good comments. I am not technically Native American, but neither are about 95% of Americans. I have European roots, from at least Czech, Germany, France, (and of course) Ireland.

However, I have had a lot of travels, both across the States and globally. I agree with you that we all have a lot to learn, and we can save ourselves a lot of pain by learning from other's mistakes.

I also agree with you that recently Americans have a terrible habit of trying to "spread American" across the world. Don't get me started...I didn't vote for the monkey.

But that brings me to my last point about your comments. There is (as we all know) a lot of variety in the thinking and believing of Americans. There are (to my dismay) a number of people who did vote for that monkey, and would do it again. There are a number of Americans (as there are a number of people across the world) who share a view that diversity and "mixing" is threatening and should be avoided.

But, I wouldn't be true to my own beliefs if I discredited these people. I have said before and I will say again that everyone is entitled to believe what they want. I can't stop them and I can't think less of them because their beliefs don't line up with mine. That makes me one of them. I choose to just disagree with them, and as long as it's peaceful, just let them be.

Ayla

Bonkey...

One more thing. Can you please confirm that you were being completely sarcastic by your description of how open-armed America was back in the (say) 18th and 19th century? If you honestly believe that, I'd be interested to hear where you got your history lessons from.

It wasn't just the Africans to be enslaved in early-day America. Like it or not, the Asian people (hell, even the Irish) worked in slave-like conditions as well. They took whatever job they could find, for that all-eternal quest to better their lives. Some made it, and their modern-day descendants have different reactions to that memory.

metrovelvet

Saint Something wrote:

Exactly!!! that's totally the vibe I'm getting from metrovelvet. Sorry Meto, please don't take this as an insult or anything because I really don't mean it that way!!! It's just that from what you have said in your last few posts it seems like you are speaking primarily about your self and your own situation, which is not to say that is wrong, but what we are discussing here is wider then just personal experiences.

I'm sure that there are huge numbers of people that have had the kind of experience that you describe, their parents don't want to let go of "the old country" and they are trying to integrate and there are complications... so they immerse them selves in "American Culture" but that in no way means that the past should be pushed out... that is why those peoples parents are so desperately trying to hold on to the old ways, because without them they would be forgotten, and how sad would that be!!!!


By the way... you should watch My Big Fat Greek Wedding.... it's pretty funny!:)

No, not at all. I said it should remain in the past, that doesnt mean it should be forgotten about. But we cant walk around in corsets when the times call for tank tops now can we? We build onto the past, we dont ossify in it.

I grew up among and with immigrants children who came from all over the world and this was a common experience among all of us, mediating between the culture of our families and the culture that we ourselves were a part of.

Very often it is the very ethos of a particular community which engenders their successes, the hard work of chinese-america or the education ethic within jewish communities. The point is,there are some things you can keep and there are somethings you have to let go of if you want to move forward. And yes, it is sad. Its loss. Immigration is painful and hard often. Remember that next time you say goodbye to someone, or you meet someone who's coming home for Christmas.

And no of course I would not tell Irish people to forget about their heritage while living in Ireland. It is up to them to decide the vision for their nation. But, with increasing immigration and the changing face of Irish identity, this will become an increasingly complex question.

Having lived abroad myself, having parents who immigrated, I am attuned to the losses that come with this. Its never ever easy and I can empathise with the longing to remain close to where your roots are. But you cant move and raise your children somewhere and not expect to lose some of your traditions. Its an inevitabilty.

To me this statement is utter BS. It is also quite typical of the time in which I grew up, so despite having been born and raised in the US, I would have often been perceived as Irish and not really American. Thankfully I had my parents Irish family to remind me how I'm not Irish.

I am American. Not second generation or "related to someone to knows someone who is," but a true American. I was born there, and grew up there, as did my parents, their parents and (for the most part) their parents before them.

You've got to be kidding me. Are you lips red, your hair platinum, and your eyes blue?

Oh and I also believe Ayla that there were Irish slaves brought to the Carribbean [but I think that was the British Carribbean]. That rap artist Rihanna I think is of that descent.

johnthesavage

Ayla wrote:

....what makes the Irish think they're immune?

We aren't immune. It's foolish to point the finger at the US or any other country and pretend that we are somehow different. Unfortunately it is human nature to distrust or fear those who are different from us, all the more so if they speak a different language and have different colour skin.
The USA doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity or racism, but it's hardly surprising that these problems are so prevalent in the biggest cultural melting pot in the world.

tallus

johnthesavage wrote:

Unfortunately it is human nature to distrust or fear those who are different from us, all the more so if they speak a different language and have different colour skin.
Semantics I know.... but I wouldn't consider it to be human nature, I think it's more likely to be a learned thing.

johnthesavage wrote:

The USA doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity or racism, but it's hardly surprising that these problems are so prevalent in the biggest cultural melting pot in the world.

I'm just wondering where that comment is coming from.

Velvet Vocals

Well, I'll answer this way...

America was founded with the motto "Land of the Free"

Ireland has a reputation for being a very welcoming, friendly nation, but can anyone deny that radical change has happened in the last generation? Not saying that the Irish are any less wonderful than they've always been, but change brings about new fears, new phobias and new problems (along with all of the good as well).

So, if America's changed "so radically" from its initial open-arm policies, what makes the Irish think they're immune?

Ayla your not answering anything here that is related to OP! Actually, no one is really asking anything here....... I think that you might feel like it's Americans on trial here, and that's not the case.
I see where your going with this tack of Irish are just as bad, there's plenty of unrest here since all the immigration has started and sure your just as bad as us...... your doing a good job of making it sound nicer then that with all the " I just love everyone and want them them all to get along, I just respect everyone's opinions blah, blah, blah!" but sometimes and only sometimes, you cant just respect everyone's opinions... you can respect that they are entitled to have an opinion that is different to the one that you have, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't challenge someone when they are doing or saying something that you disagree with..... otherwise... what the fo is the point.
What I'm trying to say Ayla and I'm possibly sound bitchie but I don't mean to be, is that sometimes you have to get off the fence! regardless of what others might think about you!

Velvet Vocals

johnthesavage wrote:

The USA doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity or racism, but it's hardly surprising that these problems are so prevalent in the biggest cultural melting pot in the world.

Did you just say.... melting pot..............................:eek: Well....... there it is folks!

bonkey

Whoosh....

Ayla wrote:

Bonkey...

One more thing. Can you please confirm that you were being completely sarcastic by your description of how open-armed America was back in the (say) 18th and 19th century? If you honestly believe that, I'd be interested to hear where you got your history lessons from.

Yes. I was being sarcastic.

Sand

Are you a native American?

Are you native Irish? Did your family *always* live here or did you roll in here with the celts, scandinavians, normans, english, scots (who were Irish emigrants to begin with), and whoever else taking our jobs and women? If you are descended from immigrants do you still consider yourself to be an immigrant or do you consider yourself to be native to Ireland? At some point "native" Irish was re-defined, much as it will be as the latest wave of immigration takes root here. At some point around the 1900s, the old native americans were pretty much completely brushed aside by the new native americans and native american simply became a politically correct label for indian tribes that survived.

And after all, the indians immigrated from somewhere else as well at some point.

" I just love everyone and want them them all to get along, I just respect everyone's opinions blah, blah, blah!" but sometimes and only sometimes, you cant just respect everyone's opinions... you can respect that they are entitled to have an opinion that is different to the one that you have, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't challenge someone when they are doing or saying something that you disagree with..... otherwise... what the fo is the point.

Maybe your Uncle is operating from a similar principle? He loves all immigrants and is happy to see them arrive, but he just disagrees that they shouldnt integrate on a basic level with the US - i.e. learn the language, treat the US flag as their flag (word of advice to the recent US immigrant lobby - do not fly mexican/Irish/Whatever flags at your rally - fly the flags of the country youre trying to convince to accept you as citizens) and treat the US as their country. Which is reasonable enough. I think Irish people would expect the same from immigrants to this country.

Of course the email also slips in an attack on Political Correctness in the form of the happy holidays and In God We Trust stuff - happy holidays is cringe inducing, but it appears to be unrelated to immigration. The In God We Trust thing....maybe the email writer is simply confused why a national motto has to be adjusted, but again I think its unrelated to immigration as most immigrants would probably be from more religious backgrounds. I think the mail simply picks those two issues and tries to blame immigrants for them when theyre more to do with secular, PC political instincts within the US itself.

The email writer is deluded though if they think they can take a snapshot of US culture, brand it the Official US Culture and then refuse to allow any deviation from cultural norms of 2006 ( or more likely 1956 given thats when the In God We Trust was adopted, though the phrase is also part of the anthem apparently). Culture in any country is fluid and reacting to events and ideas all the time. Look at St. Pats day - were the inhabitants of New York celebrating a Romano-British missionary to Ireland before the Irish moved practically en-masse to New York? Its part of US culture now though, and the sky has yet to fall down. As immigration continues, it will always lead to new communities, new ideas, new celebrations. In 2106 the US culture will be as different from 2006 as 2006 is from 1906, nothing will change that (i.e. spending fantastical sums of money on Gaelic promotion/guilt tripping hasnt resulted in a Gaelic speaking Ireland).

I think the US has a better chance of integrating new immigrants because its identity is based around flag, constitution and institutions like the army. Irish identity is based around GAA, hating the brits (people celebrating France beating England even though it made it harder for Ireland to win the 6 nations....priorities ffs), and supporting a dead language. A vietnamese person will be more likely to learn english, support the US constitution etc. etc than he will to start supporting a county he cant find on the map, summon the appropriate level of latent bitterness against the brits or give a damn about Gaelic when hes having a hard enough time learning English.

Essey

The USA doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity or racism, but it's hardly surprising that these problems are so prevalent in the biggest cultural melting pot in the world.[/QUOTE]


Does your comment come from a place of "Stupidity or racism"? Just wondering?:D

ISAW

DamoKen wrote:

forgot to ask in my last post, what history books have you read? first

Mind you the Irish chieftans were not by Brethon Law forced to be heridetaty. Red Hugh O Donnel I believe was offered the Chieftainship of seven clans. The Normans usually took the eldest son of a chief thinking that would control the clan. But another sone nephew or even niece could lead (remember Grace O malley?). so these were local "kings" and they were not hereditary.

ISAW

Sand wrote:

Are you native Irish?...
And after all, the indians immigrated from somewhere else as well at some point.

Please don't start the "native Americans were not really Americans but emigrated from somewhere else" line. In that case they allo came from Iraq! But as it happens the native Americans were there for THOUSANDS of years before the new lot arrived. that is a whole lot more native than you make out.

Maybe your Uncle is operating from a similar principle? He loves all immigrants and is happy to see them arrive, but he just disagrees that they shouldnt integrate on a basic level with the US - i.e. learn the language, treat the US flag as their flag

The US is more a "salad bowl" than a "melting pot". spanish is spoken by nearly as many people as English. I am willing to bet if Spanish outstripped English it still wouldnt become the "official" language. And it could have been German instead of English.
Anyway there are lots of homegrown fundamentalists in the US, Militia, racists (white and black supremicists though rarely hispanic or oriental ones), Christian sects, muslim sects,
bible belters, minutemen, biker gangs, crack rings, etc. do any of these elements integrate?

In 2106 the US culture will be as different from 2006 as 2006 is from 1906, nothing will change that (i.e. spending fantastical sums of money on Gaelic promotion/guilt tripping hasnt resulted in a Gaelic speaking Ireland).

I still don't think Spanish will be an official language. Some robber baron elements of the culture havent changed. They went into global food chains and the oil business and the same mentalits is still there and hasnt changed.

I think the US has a better chance of integrating new immigrants because its identity is based around flag, constitution and institutions like the army. Irish identity is based around GAA, hating the brits (people celebrating France beating England even though it made it harder for Ireland to win the 6 nations....priorities ffs), and supporting a dead language.

Irish iidentity is as much constitutional as American is! The Irish also have institutions like the Church, amnesty, credit unions etc. the Irish language is not dead and is in fact an official EU language. Many other EU countries with much more population dont have that!

A vietnamese person will be more likely to learn english, support the US constitution etc. etc than he will to start supporting a county he cant find on the map, summon the appropriate level of latent bitterness against the brits or give a damn about Gaelic when hes having a hard enough time learning English.

Worldwide many people respect the Irish. I would also suggest that more or as many people know about a TINY State , the Vatican, than the much larger US. English became a world language only in the last half century. Probably because VoA and BBC World service in particular broadcasted World wide.

Munya

layke wrote:

Go to the UK and see how banks are not allowed to display a picture of a pig anymore because it offends Muslims. .

:eek:

You’re not serious. That is the most childish thing I have ever heard. Are they calling for all pigs to be removed or just cartoon ones?

I'm Irish I have an Irish surname, can speak the Irish language have a fully Irish family tree, and am very welcoming.

I just don’t believe in multi-culturism to me that equals no culture, racism and divisions.
I have already noted that those alike tend to stick together and not integrate.
If you wish to live in Ireland then accept Irish culture.

Terry

sand wrote:

I think the US has a better chance of integrating new immigrants because its identity is based around flag, constitution and institutions like the army. Irish identity is based around GAA, hating the brits (people celebrating France beating England even though it made it harder for Ireland to win the 6 nations....priorities ffs), and supporting a dead language. A vietnamese person will be more likely to learn english, support the US constitution etc. etc than he will to start supporting a county he cant find on the map, summon the appropriate level of latent bitterness against the brits or give a damn about Gaelic when hes having a hard enough time learning English.

i don't know about that. i recently saw an indian looking guy on the news. he was arrested in Belfast for something to do with a loyalist led attack on a catholic church. had an indian sounding name too. i would link to it, but i can't remember the exact details. it was quite recent though.

Are you native Irish? Did your family *always* live here or did you roll in here with the celts, scandinavians, normans, english, scots (who were Irish emigrants to begin with), and whoever else taking our jobs and women? If you are descended from immigrants do you still consider yourself to be an immigrant or do you consider yourself to be native to Ireland? At some point "native" Irish was re-defined, much as it will be as the latest wave of immigration takes root here. At some point around the 1900s, the old native americans were pretty much completely brushed aside by the new native americans and native american simply became a politically correct label for indian tribes that survived.

ok. we're all african then.

Ayla wrote:

I am American. Not second generation or "related to someone to knows someone who is," but a true American.

now that's a first for me. an american who actually refers to themself as american. usually it "Irish american", "italian american" etc.
kudos to you. if all americans felt the same way, i don't think there would be as much race related hatred over there.

tallus wrote:

johnthesavage wrote:

Unfortunately it is human nature to distrust or fear those who are different from us, all the more so if they speak a different language and have different colour skin.

Semantics I know.... but I wouldn't consider it to be human nature, I think it's more likely to be a learned thing.

have to agree with tallus on that point. although i do remember the first time i ever saw a black man. i was 4 or 5 years old and, in all my innocence, immediatelt pointed at him and said 'look at that man. his skin is a funny colour'.
my cousin told me to be quiet and pointed out that he was african and that underneath he was the same as all of us. luckily enough my cousin was enlightened enough to tell me that and not call him a ******.
sorry. what was i rambling on about? umm...
yeah, america and integration.
we will experience the same problems here. we're just going to have to put up with it.
i pointed out in another thread somewhere that the best way to go about this integration thing is to not lump all the immigrants together and create a ghetto type culture.
with the asylum seekers, send joe umbagabe from nigeria to leitrim and his neighbour to maynooth. allow them to settle in with the locals.
true, they will bring some of their own traditions with them, but the acceptable ones will surely be absorbed nicely into our own culture. (not the dodgy circumcision ones though. go to a damn hospital if you want to slice you kids helmet off and leave your daughters alone).
let us learn from the mistakes of other countries and not allow the ghetto culture that is usually associated with immigration to happen here. it only leads to hatred from both sides.
yeah, we're all enlightened here, but think about the likes of those who rioted at the orange order parade and the foriegn criminal element that will rear its ugly head. it has happened elsewhere and it will happen here unless we get in quickly and prevent ghettoes from popping up.

Dudess

Munya wrote:

If you wish to live in Ireland then accept Irish culture.

That's assimilation, the favoured approach in France, which has led to marginalisation, resentment and, recently, violent riots.

My uncle isn't even second-generation - he emigrated to the States in the 70s. And he doesn't like "the Jews" because they "control everything". I wonder if it has ever occurred to him and others like him that many would be of the view that white Christians "control everything".

Terry

Dudess wrote:

That's assimilation, the favoured approach in France, which has led to marginalisation, resentment and, recently, violent riots.

My uncle isn't even second-generation - he emigrated to the States in the 70s. And he doesn't like "the Jews" because they "control everything". I wonder if it has ever occurred to him and others like him that many would be of the view that white Christians "control everything".

well that goes back to the learned thing.
my 5th and 6th class teacher was a total 'ra head. the way he taught history made everyone in the class hate the brits. in later years most of us studied history further and realised that not every british person is a wanker and we can't blame them n everything that has happened us.
your uncle is obviously surrounded by people who hate jews and this has influenced his way of thinking.

what makes me lagh is, the jews don't like the "happy christmas" thing, but are quite happy to celebrate their own culture in a majorly christian country.
although i don't really believe that all jews are anti christmas. i think the anti defamation league is made up mostly of rich white christian women with noting else to do but hassle everyone.

i've got english, chinese and north african/middle eastern (don't know and don't care) neighbours.
they have settled in nicely. i see them as i'm walking into my house, we exchange pleasantries and go about our business. they don't try to shove their culture down my neck and i don't try to shove my culture down their necks.
this is how it should be, but i fear i am in the minority.

johnthesavage

tallus wrote:

Semantics I know.... but I wouldn't consider it to be human nature, I think it's more likely to be a learned thing.

No you're right there is a difference between what is innate and what is learned, although it's not always possible to tell one from the other. Children certainly learn by example from their parents and their peers, but where does prejudice come from in the first place?

tallus wrote:

I'm just wondering where that comment is coming from.

I meant that the xenophobia exhibited in that email can be found everywhere. That sort of thing happens here too - I've heard people grumbling in the same manner about the Polish language radio ads, for example.

metrovelvet

Sand wrote:

I think the US has a better chance of integrating new immigrants because its identity is based around flag, constitution and institutions like the army. Irish identity is based around GAA, hating the brits (people celebrating France beating England even though it made it harder for Ireland to win the 6 nations....priorities ffs), and supporting a dead language. A vietnamese person will be more likely to learn english, support the US constitution etc. etc than he will to start supporting a county he cant find on the map, summon the appropriate level of latent bitterness against the brits or give a damn about Gaelic when hes having a hard enough time learning English.

It also because the US has a different relationship with memory, progress, change and the past itself. We like to keep moving, the price for this is amnesia. You need to forget to move on. Will Ireland ever ever forget?

Terry

metrovelvet wrote:

It also because the US has a different relationship with memory, progress, change and the past itself. We like to keep moving, the price for this is amnesia.

hiroshima/ nagasaki: boom.
korea: huh?
vietnam: don't know what you're talking about.
afghanistan: [strike]damn commies[/strike] damn terrorists.
iraq part 1: who shot who in the what now?

god bless [strike]america[/strike] selective memory.

You need to forget to move on. Will Ireland ever ever forget?

i personally will not ever let go of what britain did to us. they raped us of our culture, language and heritage. i don't hold today's british people responsible, but i still have a hard time looking upon them as equals. i see them more as a sad, broken empire who are still trying to cling onto the last remaining dredges of what was once a world conquering force (see northern Ireland and the falklands for a quick example).