Attitudes to England national team

ronbyrne2005

international sporting rivalries arent just based on playing each other ,its cultural historical and numerous other things,get into the real world,people support a certain football club cos their da did or they liked certain players as a kid etc ,international football has little similarity to club football in terms of reasons for supporting ,most people support english teams because the league is exciting etc not because its played in england with players from all over the world and club owners from all over the world.anyone who thinks supporting an english club and hoping england lose is antithetical or hypocritical is a fool.

eirebhoy

therecklessone wrote:

There's a difference between not caring and actively wanting them to lose. I'd find it hard to understand a person actively wanting their own national team to lose.

The team you support doesn't change with the click of a finger. If you support Man U it has probably been bred into you. You can't just say that you either stop being anti-the English national team or you stop supporting the club you support. You're right, it is hypocritical but it's your heart that's been hypocritical as a grown man doesn't just decide to be passionate about England losing. I would be in such a bad mood if England were to win the world cup, just like I would be if Ireland were to lose a match. I can't turn that off though, I probably don't want to either as if I did I would.

herbieflowers

Think if you supported Chelski, would that mean when England play you'd boo Terry, Lamaprd, Cole et al? That doesn't make sense. How can an attitude change just because of a jersey? They're the same players aren't they?!

therecklessone

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

anyone who thinks supporting an english club and hoping england lose is antithetical or hypocritical is a fool.

I'd prefer if you changed the tone of your replies to be honest, but in the absence of that I'll say this.

Anyone who supports an English club team then goes on to abuse his own players playing in an English jersey isn't just being hypocritical, he is being idiotic, childish or just plain retarded (delete as appropriate).

herbieflowers

eirebhoy wrote:

The team you support doesn't change with the click of a finger. If you support Man U it has probably been bred into you. You can't just say that you either stop being anti-the English national team or you stop supporting the club you support. You're right, it is hypocritical but it's your heart that's been hypocritical as a grown man doesn't just decide to be passionate about England losing. I would be in such a bad mood if England were to win the world cup, just like I would be if Ireland were to lose a match. I can't turn that off though, I probably don't want to either as if I did I would.

I'd be in a bad mood too if England won the WC but it wouldn't be because of the team and their players it'd be because the English media would never shutup about it! I mean, they're still harping on about '66 abnd that was 40 feckin years ago!

Pigman II

People on this thread are harping on about 66 more than the media are.

eirebhoy

Pigman II wrote:

People on this thread are harping on about 66 more than the media are.

I tend to agree with you there. The Irish, Scots and Welsh talk about 66 more than the English.

ronbyrne2005

when people wish the English TEAM bad luck it doesnt mean they are anti the PLAYERS from their club ,its more of an anti english nation/establishment/media/arrogance/history than anti terry/beckham etc,forget that england is a team of individual club players and see them as a individual-less NATIONAL TEAM and you may be better able to understand peoples opinions on this

ronbyrne2005

therecklessone wrote:

I'd prefer if you changed the tone of your replies to be honest, but in the absence of that I'll say this.

Anyone who supports an English club team then goes on to abuse his own players playing in an English jersey isn't just being hypocritical, he is being idiotic, childish or just plain retarded (delete as appropriate).

i dont condone abusing anyone just wishing them bad luck in a jocular way

nlgbbbblth

Pigman II wrote:

People on this thread are harping on about 66 more than the media are.

Yes.

English media can be largely avoided if you live here.

herbieflowers

it's only a game....

therecklessone

herbieflowers wrote:

it's only a game....

He's a witch! Burn him!!!

therecklessone

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

when people wish the English TEAM bad luck it doesnt mean they are anti the PLAYERS from their club ,its more of an anti english nation/establishment/media/arrogance/history than anti terry/beckham etc,

Then at least show some consistency. English club footbal is an important part of English culture, why embrace one aspect while rejecting all others? There's your hypocricy, all rolled up into a neat little quote.

I mean, your argument has all the merit of me wearing Nikes, listening to 50 Cent on my Ipod, on my way to the cinema to see Mission Impossible III while decrying the spread of American culture throughout the world.

therecklessone

p.s. I've just laid against England to reach the last 4, so I have a reason to cheer on their opposition...:D

ronbyrne2005

therecklessone wrote:

Then at least show some consistency. English club footbal is an important part of English culture, why embrace one aspect while rejecting all others? There's your hypocricy, all rolled up into a neat little quote.

I mean, your argument has all the merit of me wearing Nikes, listening to 50 Cent on my Ipod, on my way to the cinema to see Mission Impossible III while decrying the spread of American culture throughout the world.

eh no,people dont support english clubs because its part of english culture and football doesnt represent all english culture,do all supporters of all englsih clubs have to embrace all aspects of englsih culture? maybe a tad bit of over generalisation combined with a false dichotomy?,im off to the pub to drink english beer which is part of english culture so i must then support them in the WC ,cheerio chaps

ronbyrne2005

can you not see the difference between a NATIONAL football team and a group of mercenary players playing for a club in a particular nation?? can you not see that different nations have long running rivalries/competitivness/non violent tensions/grudges/dislikes in the sporting and non sporting arenas? is it not true that sport is a microcosm of life and national teams and their supporters adopt the persona attitudes and beliefs of that nation?

therecklessone

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

eh no,people dont support english clubs because its part of english culture and football doesnt represent all english culture,do all supporters of all englsih clubs have to embrace all aspects of englsih culture? maybe a tad bit of over generalisation combined with a false dichotomy?,im off to the pub to drink english beer which is part of english culture so i must then support them in the WC ,cheerio chaps

I didn't say you have to support England. Is that sinking in?

I DIDN'T SAY YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT ENGLAND

Sinking in now?

You brought up culture and history as reasons to oppose England, not me. That same culture includes the domestic game, does it not? Do I have to get all Monty Python on your ass and ask what have the Roman's ever done for us?

answers on a A3 sheet to the usual address

Töpher

Personally, I'll be happy to see them do alright - but I won't be too bothered if they go out miserably. However, I do watch English football on the television, and as such I think it would be good for the players involved to go as far as they can - ultimately it will add to their experience and help develop them as players - which is ultimately good for the game we see on the television.

Anyone who can "support" an English team from Ireland every week, yet roar abuse at the English national team because of the past need their heads checked. Their money on replica jersies and bi-annual trips funds English teams and adds to the English NATIONAL economy (Irish people put millions every year in under the guise of supporting English football). Its outright hypocisy to cheer Chelsea or Man Utd etc every week and be roaring abuse at the same players playing for England and hoping they lose.

As for Irish football fans not supporting the Irish national team, I think you will find most will, just many are relucatant to hand any money whatsoever to the bunch of clowns that run our so called Football Association. As the saying goes: You can't spell failure without FAI.

ronbyrne2005

international football support is more about national pride and national identity than football itself,english club football has for irish people nothing to do with national identity and nationalism so to say we are
hoping for england to fail is to demonstrate our dislike for their nationalism as typified/demonstrated by their media,is it fair to judge a nations nationalism by its media? i think so,its like a nations government,they get the type they deserve.

Töpher

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

are english chelsea fans suppose to support germany because ballack plays for them now??

No, clearly not - thats a different argument. What you should be asking is "Will German Chelsea fans support England because Ballack plays for them now?" - ultimately no, because Germans don't support the English league - why? Because they're not fond of the English, and they're not picky about when or where they can decide to like or not like them, its a universal disliking, and extents to the NATIONAL team and the NATIONAL league.

[ot]
Having been in Germany earlier this year, I got given different sets of directions from people, after pointing out that we were Irish not English. The ones we got took us to where we needed to go, the ones when they assumed we were English were in the opposite direction. Happened more than once. I didn't see one Premiership jersey in my time there.

therecklessone

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

can you not see the difference between a NATIONAL football team and a group of mercenary players playing for a club in a particular nation??

Yes, yes I can. Your point?

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

can you not see that different nations have long running rivalries/competitivness/non violent tensions/grudges/dislikes in the sporting and non sporting arenas? is it not true that sport is a microcosm of life and national teams and their supporters adopt the persona attitudes and beliefs of that nation?

And what is the basis of our rivalry? 800 years? Sorry man, got over that one years ago. I'm a child of the Celtic Tiger (well, teen), I'm paid a good wage to do a job I enjoy that allows me to pay for the house I'm in now and spend a few quid on myself as well (a Spurs season ticket just one treat). I don't care about that aspect of our history, I don't let it colour my opinion of our neighbours (and dare I say good friends). I enjoy a good slagging with them, so when they get knocked out my English friends will get it in the neck, but it will all be good natured fun. I won't be dancing in the streets. I drink with these people, I share the upper tier of the Park Lane in WHL with them. I'll share a train to Cork at the end of July with a good many of them, to join more for a night on the p*ss.

I can understand the rivalry of England v Argentina, but if they're still going on in 80 years about the Falklands and the Hand of God (and if I'm still around), I'll call them on it. I can understand the whole England v Germany thing. I just can't understand how one can let an historical fact that ended 80 odd years ago continue to fuel a rivalry that has never been stoked by events on the field. At least in the other two examples there were incidents of great controversy or drama on the football field (the hand of God, Beckham's sending off, numerous peno shoot outs).

Töpher

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

international football support is more about national pride and national identity than football itself,english club football has for irish people nothing to do with national identity and nationalism so to say we are
hoping for england to fail is to demonstrate our dislike for their nationalism as typified/demonstrated by their media,is it fair to judge a nations nationalism by its media? i think so,its like a nations government,they get the type they deserve.

I bet you don't complain when they hype up games around whatever club it is you claim to support. Be it Liverpool or Arsenal in the Champions League etc - I'm sure you're quite happy to listen to it then - but its still to do with teams in the English national league, WITHOUT WHICH THE ENGLISH NATIONAL TEAM WOULD NOT EXIST.

Under UEFA and FIFA laws, a country MUST have its own NATIONAL league to have a recognised NATIONAL team. So, by supporting your English club, which NATIONAL team are you helping to fund and exist? It's not fvcking IRELAND is it?! No, its the bloody one you claim to hate? Get a grip!

Revelation Joe

Erm...OP just popping head back over the parapet!
Gosh...sorry chaps, didn't expect it to get quite so heated :eek:
FWIW, I can see some merit in both sides of the argument.
*If* I was Irish and by that I mean born here and brought up here, I think I would support my local EL side and would *probably* have no interest in the EPL or England as a national team - but that's just me

Just out of interest, how long has RTE been showing English League matches and the Irish press reporting on them?
Have Irish people always supported English teams?

Now, for those who *do* follow an English team, I can still see some reasons why they wouldn't want to support England. The national team is a representation of the nation as a whole, which of course includes the baying hordes of the Press, and I can understand why that, amongst other things, would get people's backs up

I wonder if maybe I should have rephrased part of the original post and asked: 'Do you want England to do well in the World Cup, do you want them to get resoundingly thrashed or don't you care?'

Del

mike65

The Irish populance has been supporting the top English teams since before the war, you only have to look at the huge number of top Irish players who have togged out for the Super Powers of the game down the decades.

Its hardly a suprise that the clubs they played for still have such a large following dispite the fact these days not many Irish players are in the top teams (relativly speaking). RTE has been showing Prem league games for a couiple of years and the Premiership highlights package for somewhat longer and of course before the modern day tv coveage at home zillions packed the pubs to watch it on SKY and before that many on the East coast could watch ITVs The Big Match through a light mist via giant 40 foot high arials that were once a feature of the Irish landscape.

Mike.

johnos

Revelation Joe wrote:

*If* I was Irish and by that I mean born here and brought up here, I think I would support my local EL side and would *probably* have no interest in the EPL or England as a national team - but that's just me

POTM!

Revelation Joe

johnos wrote:

POTM!

Is that good? It's got a big smiley and a thumbs-up, so I suppose it is?

I'm trying to draw a parallel between my footie behaviour as it is now and how it might have been.
I support West Ham because they ar elocal to where I come from, my cousin supportes them and influenced me and my Dad went to school with Trevor Brooking. I support England because I'm English.

But if I was brought up in Athlone say, and I got interested in soccer, I would support Athlone Town and Ireland.

I *love* soccer but I'm not interested in every single game. I watch The Premiership because the Hammers are on it (although I did also watch it when we weren't in the Prem!) but I rarely watch CL games for example, because they don't interest me. They have no influence on my team.

And *that* is why I'd try and resist the EPL and England if I was Irish. Does that make sense?

Del

Pigman II

Revelation Joe wrote:

Have Irish people always supported English teams?
Del

Whilst out best players have always gone to England for work, from my own readings of it the huge interest in English football amongst our population only came to be with the advent of television in this country (and in particular the introduction of MatchOftheDay) in the early 1960's.

Before then the interest wasn't as great and our domestic game (whilst not ever in the same league as the GAA ) was in a much healthier state than it is now.

nlgbbbblth

I remember a teacher summing it up at school - the whole reason why Irish people support English and Scottish clubs. Must be 20 years ago now.

'Because we're a nation of glory-hunting b*stards. We have to support a winner or jump on a winning bandwagon. You see those fellas from the likes of Crewe or Torquay. They support their local team even though they know that they'll never be successful. How many people over here would prefer to support the likes of Galway United and Finn Harps (places that they have a true connection with or hail from) as opposed to the likes of Man Utd, Celtic, Liverpool etc - places that mean nothing to them but instead provide a measure of success that they can try and pathetically grab a share in'

You know - he made a lot of sense.

Zebra3

The gloryhunting thing is so true. I remember being at Ireland matches pre-Euro88. Empty seats and terracing. But people blame 'the suits' on taking up the tickets which is total bollocs. Every tosser in this country is a bandwagon jumper.

The GAA has thrived on it for years. All you have to do is follow a team during the nice summer months and as soon as they lose a game, you can disappear til the following summer and be 'a loyal fan'. :rolleyes:

So many people in this country are so thick. "I've 'followed' (ie watched on tv) Man U/L'pool etc since I was a kid'. Do they never grow into adults and think for themselves?

Do they have no problem going (if they bother) to watch their team amongst English flags and fans singing songs to the tune of the Billy Boys?

And as for the posters who say they don't worry about Ireland's history of occupation by England, well, it's still going on today.

therecklessone

Zebra3 wrote:

So many people in this country are so thick. "I've 'followed' (ie watched on tv) Man U/L'pool etc since I was a kid'. Do they never grow into adults and think for themselves?

Yes, which is why I gave up simply watching on TV and bought a season ticket for the club I support. Stow the abuse.

Zebra3 wrote:

Do they have no problem going (if they bother) to watch their team amongst English flags and fans singing songs to the tune of the Billy Boys?

Last season I attended White Hart Lane 15 times, the Reebok Stadium, the Riverside, Wigan's JJB Stadium, Fulham's Craven Cottage, Stamford Bridge, and Leicester's Walkers' Stadium. I have heard songs sung to the tune of "the Billy Boys", but none have been of a sectarian nature. Why should I have a problem with a simple tune?

Zebra3 wrote:

And as for the posters who say they don't worry about Ireland's history of occupation by England, well, it's still going on today.

This ain't the place for a political discussion, but suffice to say I vote in freeelections in a Republic, so I've managed to get over our history. Can't speak for others.

bohsman

Revelation Joe wrote:

Is that good? It's got a big smiley and a thumbs-up, so I suppose it is?


Del

POTM = Post Of The Month

I used to follow United but once I started going to live games I was hooked.

Im not too interested in the Irish national team due to being anti McCarthy for a long time and now being anti Staunton - similarly bizarre appointment to Farrelly to Bohs.

I will be anti England in this world cup mainly because I stand to lose a lot of money if they win it but also because it is hilarious to watch them lose - think penalty shootouts.

eirebhoy

bohsman wrote:

Im not too interested in the Irish national team due to being anti McCarthy for a long time and now being anti Staunton - similarly bizarre appointment to Farrelly to Bohs.

But you're still interested in Bohs?

Pigman II

McCarthy was there for 6 years. Somehow I don't think Farrellys going to be testing anyones patience that long

However I think he's refering to the appointment a complete novice in both cases rather than his opinion on Farrelly himself.

roar_ie

From my personal point of view, I honestly wouldn't mind England winning to World Cup if I didn't have to spend the rest of my adult life hearing about it. But that's just me

herbieflowers

roar_ie wrote:

From my personal point of view, I honestly wouldn't mind England winning to World Cup if I didn't have to spend the rest of my adult life hearing about it. But that's just me

I'd be the same, is it just me though or are England's exits hilarious? Gazza's tears, crappy penalty shoot-out defeats (Keegan's co-commentary at the 98 WC vs. Argentina = gold!) etc.

bohsman

eirebhoy wrote:

But you're still interested in Bohs?

Yea but its getting depressing watching them, meant to add that I would still follow Ireland in the WC had they qualified but tbh Im not particularly patriotic and Trinindad and Tobago have more links to Bohs than the FAIlures team in my time following them at least.

Töpher

Is it really that different to hearing about Liverpool winning the Chamipons League?

We will all go on about whatever suits us - The English go on about '66, its their proudest footballing moment. So what? Stop reading English papers and watching English news if it gets to you that much!

Liverpool fans will talk about Istanbul '05 for God knows how many years to come. Ironic, especially if they're Irish and whinge about the English talking up their achievements.

Its all objective. Irish people claim to hate England for a variety of reasons - despite our need as a nation to help fund their national leagues and economy - and sometimes use the media as an excuse. Noone forces you to watch English news.

If Ireland won the World Cup we'd go on about it in OUR media. Whats wrong with the English doing it in THEIR media? Christ, we still talk about THAT save.

As a nation we cling to the success of English teams, yet as the same nation we begrudge them success on a national level (because of the media? my arse!). Slightly hypocritical me thinks!

We are a nation of glory hunting (league), jealous (national), gits.

mike65

Post of the Month!

Mike.

Töpher

Why thank you! Seems to have killed off this thread though!

Go Team Engerland!

johnos

Revelation Joe wrote:

Is that good? It's got a big smiley and a thumbs-up, so I suppose it is?

I'm trying to draw a parallel between my footie behaviour as it is now and how it might have been.
I support West Ham because they ar elocal to where I come from, my cousin supportes them and influenced me and my Dad went to school with Trevor Brooking. I support England because I'm English.

But if I was brought up in Athlone say, and I got interested in soccer, I would support Athlone Town and Ireland.

I *love* soccer but I'm not interested in every single game. I watch The Premiership because the Hammers are on it (although I did also watch it when we weren't in the Prem!) but I rarely watch CL games for example, because they don't interest me. They have no influence on my team.

And *that* is why I'd try and resist the EPL and England if I was Irish. Does that make sense?

Del

POTM is about as good as it gets. It means Post Of The Month! But I think you just overtook yourself...:D

johnos

Einst&#252 wrote: »

As a nation we cling to the success of English teams, yet as the same nation we begrudge them success on a national level (because of the media? my arse!). Slightly hypocritical me thinks!

We are a nation of glory hunting (league), jealous (national), gits.

Event junkies, in the words, allegedly, of Tom Humphries.

Pigman II

The Aussies are the worst .... but we're not far behind.

MonkeyTennis

In countries where domestic leagues are poor, its common for the people of that country to follow the nearest big league or one of the big 4.
Irish people have had a huge interest in English top flight football because its where our best players went to play.
Were not unique. Ask a Norwegian who he supports, he will likely give you a Premiership club.
Czechs and Poles have a huge interest in the Bundesliga. Having a passion for club whos home isnt in your home turf isnt a uniqely Irish thing. But do you think the Czechs dont want to put one over on the Germans? Do you think its an historical issue?

Guess what? Its ok to support a club out of your country and yet wish that country falls on its arse internationally.

Why? Because footy is a sport led by the heart and not the head as the previous posts have shown! And long may it continue

finnpark

MonkeyTennis wrote:

In countries where domestic leagues are poor, its common for the people of that country to follow the nearest big league or one of the big 4.
Irish people have had a huge interest in English top flight football because its where our best players went to play.
Were not unique. Ask a Norwegian who he supports, he will likely give you a Premiership club.
Czechs and Poles have a huge interest in the Bundesliga. Having a passion for club whos home isnt in your home turf isnt a uniqely Irish thing. But do you think the Czechs dont want to put one over on the Germans? Do you think its an historical issue?

Guess what? Its ok to support a club out of your country and yet wish that country falls on its arse internationally.

Why? Because footy is a sport led by the heart and not the head as the previous posts have shown! And long may it continue

Load of sh*t. Its not ok to support a country that suppressed our forefathers for 600 years and wiped out 2/3 of our population by starving them to death. Its pathetic, its for little boys in play school, pretending to support a team. Supporting a team is when you go out each week to watch them play, not sitting at home watching them on TV and wearing a jersey. At least thats the way it should be. Up da harps!:D

eirebhoy

Pigman II wrote:

The Aussies are the worst .... but we're not far behind.

We are event junkies and we wouldn't miss an excuse for a party but I don't think that's the main reason. Us and the Aussies would be extremely patriotic. We'll support anything Irish and if Ireland were in the final of some world hockey event it would get great viewing figures on RTE.

Pigman II

eirebhoy wrote:

in the final of some event

That's the key tho. Bandwagoners the majority..

There's no law against being patriotic when your teams playing like muck and not getting to 'the show' but when that happens you'll soon see the majority of Irish and Aussies move on to whatever the next big thing is.

mike65

Speaking of bandwagon jumping the failure of Poland tonight could mean that ship is about to sink, so who's next to be adopted (Mick pats Krzysztof on head as he says farewell)? Oh yes expect some grumpy faces in SuperValu tomorrow

Mike.

Revelation Joe

johnos wrote:

POTM is about as good as it gets. It means Post Of The Month! But I think you just overtook yourself...:D

Blimey! Cheers :cool:

Del

Töpher

MonkeyTennis wrote:

Why? Because footy is a sport led by the heart and not the head as the previous posts have shown! And long may it continue

Exactly, football is lead by the heart. How does ones heart develop a 'love' for something faceless many miles away, whilst despising the very country from which it grew? The country in which it developed, and the country for which it continues to develop players? (When choosing a team, what seperates Liverpool/Arsenal/etc from Charlton/Torquay/Portsmouth/etc? Success perhaps?!)

What I'm trying to ask to these people who 'love' English clubs, and 'hate England - what 'connects' you to 'your' club? Can It really be pride when you claim to despise its very roots?!

Ruskie4Rent

I'm a ManU fan, been to OT only twice, but I still feel absolutly gutted when things don't go our way. So you're trying to say that the great joy and despair that my club gives me is not from the heart? It's annoying the way people try to belittle my love of football and my love of ManU because it is not a local team and I have to work and go to college instead of go to matches. So all those people can bite my proverbial scrotum, you don't know what you're talking about.