God's next Army

sovtek

Nuttzz wrote:

Anybody else notice the total lack of social skills of a lot of the students? They will get a wake up call in the real world

That reminds me of an overheard conversation between Bush and Cheney a few years back...
It went something like this:

Bush: "See him"
Cheney "Yeah he's a first rate asshole"

oscarBravo

mcgarnicle wrote:

Evidence is something that is not the opinion of two journalists that had their minds made up before they started the book.

Now I know you haven't read the book. It's also pretty clear that you're not interested in reading the book, because it doesn't agree with the conclusion you've already made up your mind about.

In reply to your point: evidence is something the book I mentioned cites, in spades. If you want evidence, read the book as suggested.

solas

I only saw this last night (early this morning) good docu and the best reason I've heard so far for the gun law's in America. Give them all guns I say.

[edit]maybe I should clarify what I was referring to:

A well regulated militia is a militia that is regulated by the citizens so that it will not get out of control or become unwieldy and tyrannical. This is precisely why Thomas Jefferson, the author of The Declaration of Independence and President of the United States, wrote that "the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government."

tallus

Jefferson was the man
I think he wrote the first draft of the constitution, but I may be wrong there.

Sand

I'm just curious how Christian values coincide with allowing corporations to poison people and allow them to not be answerable for it.
At the same time it's kinda funny to see how sheep-ily they do whatever their told even if it goes against their professed values.

Probably work for it on the basis of the lesser of two evils - Democrat support for abortion means they are the greater/more direct evil as far as *their* Christian values would go. Hence the whole hoopla over the SC nominations - the religious right have been working for decades to sieze control of the SC so they can undo the privacy interpretation that supports abortion.

solas

tallus wrote:

Jefferson was the man
I think he wrote the first draft of the constitution, but I may be wrong there.

apparantly so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence#Differences_between_draft_and_final_versions

normally I'm a bit pacifist but when I heard those kids discuss their views on gun laws, I thought it might be a good idea to protect the right to bear arms, just in case any of them actually do get into govt.

DublinWriter

This is exactly what you get when you create a society of ‘unequals’, where the gulf between the rich and poor is immense and we’re ‘customers’ rather than ‘citizens’.

I have this nightmare scenario in the back of my mind that this type of Christian religious fundamentalism will happen in Ireland in the next 20 years as we race to Boston rather than Berlin.

Don’t believe me? Look how more liberal the states was in the 70’s pre-Regan. The Republican Party implemented massive cuts in public education in the early 80’s and now we’re seeing the results with the lumpen proletariat of the American Hinterland believing the Bible as being literally true.

As Bill Hicks said, is it just me, or is there a certain irony in how creationists tend to look really unevolved?

solas

DW wrote:

This is exactly what you get when you create a society of ‘unequals’, where the gulf between the rich and poor is immense and we’re ‘customers’ rather than ‘citizens’.

how do you equate rich and poor with christian fundemntalism?

Even in liberal era in the states, the nature of religious belief varies greatly from Irish beliefs, mostly because the Irish are majority catholic (even if in name only), wheras American Christianity is vastly protestant, evangelical, baptist etc. Very different sets of belief. (one believes in free will the other believes everything is pre determined by God)

Even so, Ireland has moved away from religious education, as is noted by the ceasing of the CBS institutions and many more people are seeking to place their kids in secular schools, from primary upwards.

After everything Ireland has been through with regard to religious affairs (inc NI), I don't forsee us going down that road.

Cantab.

I believe that if a group of people want to set up a Christian college to promote their ideology, then fair play to them.

There's nothing stopping anyone setting up a college for liberal ideology either.

Also, the politicians and lawyers coming out of this college still have to be elected and selected, just like anybody else.

And besides, who says that a neo-liberal culture of nihilism ought to be imposed on a country?

I'd like Catholic versions of these colleges here in Ireland -The pontifical college in Maynooth has gotten a bit of a hammering in recent years.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

And besides, who says that a neo-liberal culture of nihilism ought to be imposed on a country?

the liberal nihilists, and we're right too

pH

Cantab. wrote:

I believe that if a group of people want to set up a Christian college to promote their ideology, then fair play to them.

There's nothing stopping anyone setting up a college for liberal ideology either.

Also, the politicians and lawyers coming out of this college still have to be elected and selected, just like anybody else.

And besides, who says that a neo-liberal culture of nihilism ought to be imposed on a country?

I'd like Catholic versions of these colleges here in Ireland -The pontifical college in Maynooth has gotten a bit of a hammering in recent years.

Here's a novel idea ... how about inclusive colleges and schools that just teach their students well. Where all, regardless of religious beliefs, race, culture etc can receive the best education possible, and leave the politics to the person and to optional clubs and socs that they can join?

Can you explain how going to a 'Catholic version here' would be any better than going to UCD/Trinity/DCU/UCG/UCC/DIT for your education and getting your spiritual/moral guidance by being an active member of a Catholic organistaion outside of lecture hours?

DublinWriter

solas wrote:

Even so, Ireland has moved away from religious education, as is noted by the ceasing of the CBS institutions and many more people are seeking to place their kids in secular schools, from primary upwards.

Really? Do give me an couple of example of non-Catholic church managed primary schools.

Regarding handover of the CBS secondary schools, that's sceduled to happen in the future.

Hobbes

Are there any liberal collages like that? Doubtful.

I see that the same hard core christan groups are now saying that beating your children is the christan way to raise them.

I think they should bite the bullet in the US and have religon classes. But teach all religons.

Dirk Gently

Cantab. wrote:

I believe that if a group of people want to set up a Christian college to promote their ideology, then fair play to them.

There's nothing stopping anyone setting up a college for liberal ideology either.

Also, the politicians and lawyers coming out of this college still have to be elected and selected, just like anybody else.

And besides, who says that a neo-liberal culture of nihilism ought to be imposed on a country?

I'd like Catholic versions of these colleges here in Ireland -The pontifical college in Maynooth has gotten a bit of a hammering in recent years.

The difference is that a religious government which this school wishes to set up would discriminate and oppress free thinking people.
A clear separation between church and state would not discriminate against religious groups, as it would be up to each person of faith to follow their churches rules.

Religion should always be an individual choice and not something to be imposed on a nation. A religious government who banned the use of condoms or refused non-religious sexual behavior is the same as a non-religious government banning the family and forcing people to have sex before marriage.
Neither is acceptable.

Keep religion out of government and let individuals of faith run their own lives according to their beliefs. The rest of us respect your beliefs and don't force you to abandon religion so religion must respect us and not force Christianity on the free people in society.

How does having liberal laws in a country discriminate against any religion?
People can always still choose to limit their freedom if they choose by submitting to religious dogma in their personal lives.
The right to choose is important. This school wants to take away that right to choose.

solas

DW wrote:

Really? Do give me an couple of example of non-Catholic church managed primary schools.

http://www.educatetogether.ie/
gealscoil

Cantab.

I think the argument that aethist/agnostic parents have no choice but to send their children to a Catholic primary school (by virtue of the fact that the vast majority of primary schools are Catholic) is a valid one.

However, this reality is not the fault of the Catholic church. Parents, as citizens, must realise that if they want schools with an ethos that is acceptable to them, they should get on to their local politicians and demand such schools.

Now I realise it is not as simple as this becuase a comfortable status-quo exists in primary education (and secondary to some degree) in this country. The situation as it exists in my opinion, is unsustainable and ought to be changed as it is not good for either side: aethist parents are unhappy with their children coming home talking about Jesus and the Church is compromised by virtue of the fact that so many non-believers are turning up to go through the motions whilst leading lives completely incompatible with the Church's moral teachings.

I, as a Catholic, feel very strongly about the whole issue of primary school education in this country. My suggestion, as a layperson, would be to shut down/sell off most primary schools that are catholic by name yet hethonistic by nature. I know of two young teachers, teaching in Catholic schools that dismiss the existence of God yet are teaching young Catholics of the future! Look at the lavish first holy communions complete with limosuines and helicopters! This situtation should not be allowed to continue as it is damaging to the Church (and indeed to the dishonest parents who send their children to such schools).

I would like to see a network of elite Catholic schools developing in society (private if necessary - but I don't see why the state shouldn't fund a public Catholic school over an aethist/Jewish/Protestant one) that have a strong ethos and are capable of producing strong educated people for the future. But I don't know if the current Catholic hierarchy have the drive to implement such a plan - they might have other ideas as to what to do with Ireland's primary schools. I trust them to make the right decision though.

I think the schools issue is going to be the next major issue for the church to deal with - I just hope we can come up with a solution that will not compromise the faith whilst satisfying the needs of society.

Dirk Gently

Cantab. wrote:

I think the argument that aethist/agnostic parents have no choice but to send their children to a Catholic primary school (by virtue of the fact that the vast majority of primary schools are Catholic) is a valid one.

However, this reality is not the fault of the Catholic church. Parents, as citizens, must realise that if they want schools with an ethos that is acceptable to them, they should get on to their local politicians and demand such schools.

Now I realise it is not as simple as this becuase a comfortable status-quo exists in primary education (and secondary to some degree) in this country. The situation as it exists in my opinion, is unsustainable and ought to be changed as it is not good for either side: aethist parents are unhappy with their children coming home talking about Jesus and the Church is compromised by virtue of the fact that so many non-believers are turning up to go through the motions whilst leading lives completely incompatible with the Church's moral teachings.

I, as a Catholic, feel very strongly about the whole issue of primary school education in this country. My suggestion, as a layperson, would be to shut down/sell off most primary schools that are catholic by name yet hethonistic by nature. I know of two young teachers, teaching in Catholic schools that dismiss the existence of God yet are teaching young Catholics of the future! Look at the lavish first holy communions complete with limosuines and helicopters! This situtation should not be allowed to continue as it is damaging to the Church (and indeed to the dishonest parents who send their children to such schools).

I would like to see a network of elite Catholic schools developing in society (private if necessary - but I don't see why the state shouldn't fund a public Catholic school over an aethist/Jewish/Protestant one) that have a strong ethos and are capable of producing strong educated people for the future. But I don't know if the current Catholic hierarchy have the drive to implement such a plan - they might have other ideas as to what to do with Ireland's primary schools. I trust them to make the right decision though.

I think the schools issue is going to be the next major issue for the church to deal with - I just hope we can come up with a solution that will not compromise the faith whilst satisfying the needs of society.

I'm not sure if you posted this here by mistake as it looks like a reply to the humanities debate we are currently having but I just want to pull you up anyway on your point about "dishonest parents".

How are the parents dishonest? They have to send their kids to school. They have no choice about that. Schools are run by religious institutions. It is the fault of the education system that parents must unwillingly send their children to these schools. To call parents dishonest is an unconvincing attack on them and it reeks of ignorance to me. Give parents a choice or else allow the catholic schools to teach Catholicism as a non-compulsory subject which children or parents volunteer for. This way you will have less "dishonest" people attending these schools.

We have separation of church and state in this country, there for it is up to the state to provide a religious free education as the state has the responsibility of providing that education. You cannot blame parents sending their kids to get a state education while not practicing Catholicism.

As I said I assume you posted in the wrong forum as this looks like a reply to the other debate over in Humanities. This post has nothing to do with a school in the U.S. mass producing politicians and judges for the purpose of assuming national power and making america a Christian State.