Polyrhythms

18AD

Would anyone know of any songs that have polyrhythms in them?

Different tempos, time sigs etc...

The more confusing the better.

Velvet Vocals

You could try checking out some west african music, I don't know any spcific names of bands or anything, but I've seen some DVD's of tribal music, and it's all pollyrhymic stuff. Most of it is pretty complex too.Check out rhythmweb.com they are usually a pretty good place to start.

Setun

Listen to Time Out by the Dave Brubeck Quartet. In Blue Rondo A La Turk there's a 12/8 - 4/4 bar trade, and plenty of other unusual time sigs, also Eric Dolphy Out to Lunch. Other than that, anyting with Elvin Jones I'd say.

Are you a drummer?

18AD

Thanks for the replies.

Nope, I'm a bassist

Zapp Brannigan

Its not Jazz but everyone knows it is Carol of The Bells. (well thats how I know it, TSO do a cover of it called Christmas Eve/Sarajevo 12/24)
Its a 3/4 over 2/2

Setun

Check out Gerald Barry for polymetry aswell Piano Quartet #1 [edit- #1 yup!]. Time sig changes at every bar at certain parts. Tis mad.

18AD

Yeah. I had to "study" one of his works for the L.C. last year. I really liked it. I think it was piano quartet #1.

Anyone know of anything similar to his stuff?

shatners basoon

Whilst not exactly jazz either the composer Steve Reich uses alot of polyrhythms and weird tempos, same for another great composer who goes by the name of Moondog who i highly recommend.

I second Elvin Jones too, he's crammed full of rhythm changes and combinations, probably my favourite drummer of all time.

For really obvious weird timings try the prog metal band Tool! Though alot of jazz is in non standard time anyway, like free jazz where you cant even find a beat let alone the time!:p

18AD

Cool, cool. Thanks for that.

Could you recommend some free jazz stuff? I've never actually heard any and wouldn't know where to begin.

Found this a good while ago, incase anyone's interested:
http://www.ancient-future.com/rhythm.html

quintron

Meshuggah. (Polyrhythmic/odd time sig metal band - Very good)

http://www.meshuggah.net

DadaKopf

Brubeck quartet isn't polyrythmic, just weird classical time signatures. Boring cornbread jazz if you ax me.

Obviously African trance music has polyrythms - some recent cool stuff is the music coming out of Kinshasa - Konono No. 1, and the Congotronics compilations. Reich was definitely interested in polyrhyms from him malarial trip to Ghana, then incorporated elements of Balian gamelan music, which is different again. Elvin Jones was definitely one of, if not THE, best polyrythmic jazz drummer, but also check out some Sun Ra stuff, and Cecil Taylor. Non-jazz craziness that springs to mind would be Don Caballero (Damon Che is the drummer) and, ugh, Meshuggah as someone said. I don't like 'em but they're amazing.

quintron

Meshuggah good if they ditch the "singer" :-)

Melanque

Can anyone offer some pointers to Elvin's particularly polyrhythm stuff? I have 'A Love Supreme', an album called 'Heavy Sounds', and Joe Lovano's 'Trio Fascination'; it's all good, but I don't hear so many polyrhythms.

Second the Don Caballero - also in that vein, a band called Hella, and our own "The Boxes" (http://www.laterax.com/boxes.htm), and Damien Frost.

There's a book called "Musicians Guide to Polyrhythms" (voted number six on Modern Jazz Drummer Magazine's list of the 25 greatest books of all time!!!!) - by a drummer called Pete Magadini. He's put out a lot of polyrhythm music.
http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Pete_Magadini.html

Paul Simon's song 'Truth' from Rhythm of the Saints has a great 3:2 feel; there's quite a lot of interesting rhythms on that album.

Plenty of crazy rhythm stuff happens in the Bad Plus, especially in drum fills. I don't know what's happening in there, but it's not conventional.

Frank Zappa was well into all sorts of metric madness, and one advantage of getting into his work is that it's been extensively analysed and transcribed. For example,
(although this guy seems to be confusing metric modulation / odd groupings with polyrhythms in places). Zappa wrote a drum piece called the Black Page full of that stuff, discussed at http://groups.google.ie/group/alt.fan.frank-zappa/browse_frm/thread/424f199ded7f2ff3/8370d180df37347f

Vinnie Colaiuta, Virgil Donati, Terry Bozzio and (especially) Mike Mangini are all 'phenomenal' drummers; their playing will generally have weird-time fills with glimpses of polyrhythm. You can find drum solo and drum clinic videos on youtube etc. I generally can't follow what's going on, but it looks impressive. Mike Mangini has some books about rhythm that are supposed to be for any musician: http://www.rhythmknowledge-usa.com/ - the drumschool link has an intro to some polyrhythm ideas.

The craziest polyrhythmic madness is perhaps 'Bone Alphabet' by Brian Ferneyhough. Things like divide a bar of 1/8 into six, do 3:2 over the last two of those 6, and subdivide those three into 5s - to take the only bit of it I can make any sense of. 11:8, 8:5, 6:7 all figure all over it. I dunno if anyone could really play it exactly as written, but it could be sequenced.

I think you can break down rhythmically interesting things into: odd time signatures; odd subdivisions; odd groupings; metric modulation; change time signature (change count, note=note); change time signature (change subdivision, bar=bar); polyrhythms. I find you can piss about with these things with the help of a sequencer or a good metronome. Amongst these things, I personally think polyrhythms have a fairly small space of groove. 3:2, 4:3, 5:2... maybe 5:3, 5:4. Beyond that, they can be interesting but I wouldn't dance to them...

One more link: there's a post in here with a list of odd-time jazz music which might be of interest to somebody: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.progressive/browse_thread/thread/d82f1fcc923a988f/cdefd29e61f067a1

DadaKopf

Check out Damon Che!!! Hella are good, but I get bored of them real quick for some reason. How about that Chris Corsano, eh?

Ah, I fought Jones' stuff with Coltrane around Stellar Regions and Impressions was polyrythmic. Still, never found much polyrythms in Boxes even though they're AMAZING. Actually, I'm listening to Fela Kuti right now, seems pollyrithmik.

som

Try listening to the Keith Jarrett / Gary Peacock / Jack deJohnette Trio, thats the best,most accesible free jazz I've listened to. the CDs are pricey, but dublin city library have a copy of their 'inside out' album in the music library in the ilac centre(if you live in dublin).

noh showband

Yes (the soopergroop), Close to the Edge. They cross-over time signatures in various places on the album. I've heard it live as well and it really goes like that (not just studio tom-foolery). As a bass player, you'll find it fascinating listening to how Chris Squire keeps the whole thing together.

eddyc

Not jazz bands but Tool and the mars volta have some nice polyrhythmic stuff, especially tool, their drummer is amazing!!!