The Hazards of Belief

Galvasean

“We don’t know why we do it, but we will never stop"

Sounds like the ramblings of a drug addict.

5uspect

Some people may say religion is a load of shite.
They might be right:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/best_virgin_mary_sighting_yet.php

ZorbaTehZ

A girl who decided she'd rather have surgery on an operable brain tumor instead of praying to jesus to get rid of it, was then disowned by her parents.

I had never heard of it before but the parents are members of the Church of Christ, Scientists... hilariously, members call themselves Christian Scientists.

I suppose one now knows which church to join if one has a death-wish... :eek:

Genghiz Cohen

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

I had never heard of it before but the parents are members of the Church of Christ, Scientists... hilariously, members call themselves Christian Scientists.

The divine Spirit had wrought the miracle — a miracle which later I found to be in perfect scientific accord with divine law.

Dave!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/02/us-daughter-pray-death

Girl died after father turned to prayer instead of doctors


A man in the US accused of killing his 11-year-old diabetic daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care has been found guilty of second-degree reckless homicide.

Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted over the death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes.

Prosecutors contended he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she couldn't walk, talk, eat or drink. Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called an ambulance when she stopped breathing.

Sitting straight in his chair in the near-empty courtroom yesterday, Neumann stared at the jury as the verdict was read. He declined to comment as he left the courthouse.

Defence attorney Jay Kronenwetter said the verdict would be appealed. He would not comment further.

Prosecutors also refused to comment, citing a gag order.

Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, testified on Thursday that he believed God would heal his daughter and he never expected her to die. God promises in the Bible to heal, he said.

"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," Neumann testified. "I am not believing what he said he would do."

The father testified that he thought Madeline had the flu or a fever, and several relatives and family friends said they also did not realise how sick she was.

Leilani Neumann, 41, was convicted on the same charge in the spring. Marathon county circuit judge Vincent Howard set October 6 as the date for sentencing for both parents, who face up to 25 years in prison.

Their case is believed to be the first in the midwestern state of Wisconsin involving faith healing in which someone died and another person was charged with a homicide.

Last month, a jury in the western US state of Oregon convicted a man of misdemeanour criminal mistreatment for relying on prayer instead of seeking medical care for his 15-month-old daughter who died of pneumonia and a blood infection in March 2008. Both of the girl's parents were acquitted of a more serious manslaughter charge.

Galvasean

Glad to see the book being thrown at these fools.

Medicine > Prayer

lankysexybeast

Galvasean wrote: »

Glad to see the book being thrown at these fools.

Medicine > Prayer

look at the story of bridget Cleary in the 19th century. we can't ignore that sometimes this is a form of meditated murder were they play that card to get away with it.

Dave!

Saw this thread yesterday in Paranormal. It should probably go in here also

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055637589

Disgraceful

pts

The danger of bragging about your sexual exploits:
Does kissing and telling mean a death sentence?

Summary of Article:

Last month, a 32-year-old Saudi man appeared on an Arabic satellite channel and discussed – without reservation and in great detail – his sexual likes and dislikes, his favorite sex toys and how he lost his virginity to a neighbor at the age of 14. Mazen Abdul Jawad described how he picked up women in the ultra-conservative Muslim Kingdom, brought them to his bedroom and had sex with them.

While most people were simply shocked by his stories, others used the opportunity to discuss the antiquated societal norms of the Middle East that don’t respect people’s sexual freedoms. Others called for Jawad’s severe punishment. Suggestions ranged from flogging him on live television, to stoning him in a public place, to cutting off his sexual organs and hanging him to teach the masses and send a clear message that this type of behavior would not be tolerated in Saudi Arabia, home of Islam’s holiest shrines

Scary stuff!

Dades

Holy hit machine: Pope to sing lead on a new album



One for the Christmas, ahem - I mean Winterval, stocking, lads!

5uspect

He's even got a white glove!

robindch

With those white clothes and golden bling, the delightfully camp Liberace springs to mind for some reason:

Doctors in Italy who prescribe the newly introduced "Abortion Pill" will receive an automatic excommunication, says the Vatican.

Link.

The Mad Hatter

robindch wrote: »

No, Mr Bond, I expect you to diie...

Galvasean

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

Doctors in Italy who prescribe the newly introduced "Abortion Pill" will receive an automatic excommunication, says the Vatican.

Link.

We should tel that lad from countmeout.ie
Might save him some hassle.

lankysexybeast

don't know were to put this so it's going here

i'm watching a show were there looking at heaven through all different religions and they have this girl who went into a coma and says se was n heaven and can vivdly remember it. she was in a coma she could easily have been dreaming and yet they don't even mention that possibility. there also showing all of the different religions and times, completely forgetting to notice that they were different!

there also forgetting a huge thing that everyone else does when they talk about the jews in the time of the old testemant, they did not believe that YHWH was the only god they believed he was the true god. they were henothists which means they believed in loads of gods. hence the story of the golden calf even though they had heard YHWH's voice.

there completely ignoring that maybe we just die and it's that simple. you can't ignore that arguement because it has no less volition than any of the other theories.

this is meant to be a proper show on the history channel and there not going into any of it. there taking (we'll call it) possible babilry to value. i hate the fact were we live in a world were this is the norm. as non-believers we have to explain ourselves more than believers who know nothing. a lecturer said that to me about one it that "it's harder to be an aethist than a believer because you will always be asked to explain yourself". :mad::mad::mad: just annoys me so much

Dades

There was a lot of hocus pocus on the History Channel tonight. Watched a few bits but it was all a bit, well, tabloid.

lankysexybeast

Dades wrote: »

There was a lot of hocus pocus on the History Channel tonight. Watched a few bits but it was all a bit, well, tabloid.

this one on the devil is quite good

Zombrex

Anyone watch the doc on Jonestown last night on TV3.

It was fascinating (surprisingly good for a US doc, which tend to be light weight).

I had no idea that the violence (they shot a US Senator and a bunch of new reporters who had flown down to South America to check on the status of the US citizens and then had a mass suicide) was largely recorded, including a horrific audio recording of Jones instructing the members that they needed to get the "medication" as they had killed the senator and now the US army was about the storm the place and torture them all.

He asked if there was objections and a poor woman tried to object but was shouted down by other members (with Jones saying over and over he was listening and respected her opinion, he didn't need to shout her down himself).

They had interviews with surviving cult members (only 7 out of over 1,000 survived the mass suicide at the main complex) one of which said after the order to sucide came he ran to his wife and child to find a nurse had put a syringe in of cyanide in the child's mouth and he was already dead and the wife had just taken the "Kool-Aid"

Horrific stuff, but what was morbidly fascinating was that you could see all the manipulate and tricks Jones had used over the years to gain control of these people, so even though many were unhappy and wanted to leave (and did not want to kill themselves) they were still under his control and believed him when he said the alternative would be much worse

Even some of the ex-cult members being interviewed still believed Jones had the power to faith heal and wouldn't accept testimony from others that described how he faked it (cult members would brake into houses of church goes to find details about their illnesses that Jones could then "read" from just looking at the ill person)

(stuck this here as mass suicide certainly qualifies as hazards of belief, if turns into a discussion on Jonestown perhaps a new thread would be better place to discuss it)

Flamed Diving

Wicknight wrote: »

Anyone watch the doc on Jonestown last night on TV3.

It was fascinating (surprisingly good for a US doc, which tend to be light weight).

I had no idea that the violence (they shot a US Senator and a bunch of new reporters who had flown down to South America to check on the status of the US citizens and then had a mass suicide) was largely recorded, including a horrific audio recording of Jones instructing the members that they needed to get the "medication" as they had killed the senator and now the US army was about the storm the place and torture them all.

He asked if there was objections and a poor woman tried to object but was shouted down by other members (with Jones saying over and over he was listening and respected her opinion, he didn't need to shout her down himself).

They had interviews with surviving cult members (only 7 out of over 1,000 survived the mass suicide at the main complex) one of which said after the order to sucide came he ran to his wife and child to find a nurse had put a syringe in of cyanide in the child's mouth and he was already dead and the wife had just taken the "Kool-Aid"

Horrific stuff, but what was morbidly fascinating was that you could see all the manipulate and tricks Jones had used over the years to gain control of these people, so even though many were unhappy and wanted to leave (and did not want to kill themselves) they were still under his control and believed him when he said the alternative would be much worse

Even some of the ex-cult members being interviewed still believed Jones had the power to faith heal and wouldn't accept testimony from others that described how he faked it (cult members would brake into houses of church goes to find details about their illnesses that Jones could then "read" from just looking at the ill person)

(stuck this here as mass suicide certainly qualifies as hazards of belief, if turns into a discussion on Jonestown perhaps a new thread would be better place to discuss it)

Sounds like your bog-standard religion, to me.

robindch

This appears on something called Israel National News, so make of it what you will, but the story as reported is quite unpleasant:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133214

OK-Cancel-Apply

robindch wrote: »

This appears on something called Israel National News, so make of it what you will, but the story as reported is quite unpleasant:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133214

Something negative about Iran and Islam on an Israeli site? Never! :pac:

ChocolateSauce

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Something negative about Iran and Islam on an Israeli site? Never! :pac:

link wrote:

Mesbah-Yazdi answered: "The necessary precaution is for the interrogator to perform a ritual washing first and say prayers while raping the prisoner. If the prisoner is female, it is permissible to rape through the vagina or anus. It is better not to have a witness present.

Unless the paper is lying outright, I rest my case.

Dades

Ayatollah Mesbah-Yazdi wrote:

...rape before execution brings the interrogator a spiritual reward equivalent to making the mandated Haj pilgrimage [to Mecca], but if there is no execution decreed, then the reward would be equivalent to making a pilgrimage to [the Shi'ite holy city of] Karbala."

It's quotes like this that make me wish for a second Great Flood.

pts

An update on the women in Sudan who was arrested for the heinous crime of wearing trousers. She was found guilty and faces prison. Full story.

Flamed Diving

How dare she.

Galvasean

pts wrote: »

An update on the women in Sudan who was arrested for the heinous crime of wearing trousers. She was found guilty and faces prison. Full story.

People say I'm intolerant for looking down on other cultures...

pts

Only in 'Merica. High school marching band can’t wear evolutionary T-shirts. :rolleyes:

The offending T-Shirt:

Dades

Band parent Sherry Melby wrote:

I was disappointed with the image on the shirt,” Melby said. “I don’t think evolution should be associated with our school.

Would Sherry Melby please leave the gene pool.

Galvasean

Pollitt said the district was required by law to remain neutral on religion.

“If the shirts had said ‘Brass Resurrections’ and had a picture of Jesus on the cross, we would have done the same thing,” he said

Since when was evolution a religion?

Goduznt Xzst

More crazy religious bias from across the pond:

http://www.examiner.com/x-2044-Atheism-Examiner~y2009m7d1-Indiana-man-denied-No-Gods-though-state-offers-In-God-We-Trust-license-plates

Skrynesaver

Sometimes even prayer won't help

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/10/devout_catholic/

5uspect

Skrynesaver wrote: »

Sometimes even prayer won't help

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/10/devout_catholic/

I'm just back from Vienna and visited many churches, and survived unscathed.

Dades

Skrynesaver wrote: »

Sometimes even prayer won't help

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/10/devout_catholic/

The Final Destination films spring to mind. :eek:

pH

The dangers of attending church regularly.

Many Women Targeted by Faith Leaders, Survey Says
One in every 33 women who attend worship services regularly has been the target of sexual advances by a religious leader, a survey released Wednesday says.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/09/AR2009090901724.html

kiffer

pH wrote: »

The dangers of attending church regularly.

Many Women Targeted by Faith Leaders, Survey Says
One in every 33 women who attend worship services regularly has been the target of sexual advances by a religious leader, a survey released Wednesday says.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/09/AR2009090901724.html

1 in 33? that's ~3% that's not all that surprising ... Men are men.
a more interesting number would be how many religious leader types used/abused their influence to gain sexual favours... and is either this or that number any different from other groups such as employers or police officers.


Also... 33? that was Jesus's age when he died... 1 in 33? take 1 from 33 you have 32! 3 + 2 = 5! All Hail Eris!

philologos

What defines a "sexual advance" according to this study? Is it merely the claim that one has been "sexually advanced" or by evidencing that the act actually took place?

Interestingly pH leaves out the section in the article dealing with measures that have been taken by people in religious groups to try and limit sexual abuse in the article from the Rabbinical Assembly of Conservative Rabbis to the United Church of Christ. This is something which can only be praised.

pH has additionally avoided this line:

Researchers say they don't know whether the incidence of clergy sexual misconduct had changed over the years. Nor do they know whether sexual wrongdoing by clergy is more, or less, frequent than in other well-respected professions.

Hm, it doesn't seem that this is an argument to suggest that sexual approaches are higher within church settings than in other secular settings.

5uspect

Interesting development from the Mormons:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/09/deluded_but_with_good_intent.php

It seems that some degree of critical thinking may yet exist, however small.

pH

Charles Darwin film 'too controversial for religious America'

A British film about Charles Darwin has failed to find a US distributor because his theory of evolution is too controversial for American audiences, according to its producer.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6173399/Charles-Darwin-film-too-controversial-for-religious-America.html

@Jackass - I guess if what you're saying is that you're happy that those wielding religious power, those who dedicate their life to your God and telling others how to behave, you're happy that they're no worse than a non-religious person?

If you set the bar so low, you can hardly fail to be impressed - Christian Morality - "A lifetime of reading and preaching the bible - doesn't make any difference" - an impressive claim I'm sure.

philologos

pH wrote: »

@Jackass - I guess if what you're saying is that you're happy that those wielding religious power, those who dedicate their life to your God and telling others how to behave, you're happy that they're no worse than a non-religious person?

It just feels ironic, that you are claiming that this is any more of a hazard than in the real world.

Clearly the people in these denominations of Judaism and Christianity have already shown themselves to be more vigilant in ensuring that this doesn't happen within their own groups than secular groups have been outside of it.

I'm not particularly happy that these things happened, what I am pleased about is that the churches are actually doing something to stop these things from being repeated.

pH wrote: »

If you set the bar so low, you can hardly fail to be impressed - Christian Morality - "A lifetime of reading and preaching the bible - doesn't make any difference" - an impressive claim I'm sure.

Again, see my main point in the first paragraph. I'm still curious as to what defines a "sexual advance" for the purposes of this study. It's strange that they don't give a definition in the article.

Are the claims just taken on their word, or are they substantiated?

pH

Jakkass wrote: »

Are the claims just taken on their word, or are they substantiated?

Again, I like your thinking on this! Taking the claims of "[those] who attend worship services regularly" on their word is definitely something we shouldn't do lightly. Glad to see you're as sceptical as me about how honest the religious really are.

philologos

Considering that false claims against church ministers are also quite common, these things do need to be assessed before ruining peoples reputations over it.

See this for one: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/mhkfmhsnsnoj/

Its a fair question to ask how these cases of "sexual advances" are defined.

I just found it interesting the way you took one line in that article, and ignored many other important points that were contained in it.

Galvasean

pH wrote: »

Charles Darwin film 'too controversial for religious America'

A British film about Charles Darwin has failed to find a US distributor because his theory of evolution is too controversial for American audiences, according to its producer.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6173399/Charles-Darwin-film-too-controversial-for-religious-America.html

What creeped me out was this:

Movieguide.org, an influential site which reviews films from a Christian perspective, described Darwin as the father of eugenics and denounced him as "a racist, a bigot and an 1800s naturalist whose legacy is mass murder". His "half-baked theory" directly influenced Adolf Hitler and led to "atrocities, crimes against humanity, cloning and genetic engineering", the site stated

1) How can people of such authority hold such ill-informed views?
2) How the heck is that a film review?

kiffer

yeah... Wasn't Hitler a Lamarckian Eugenics type...
Also having spoken with the creationists on the other forum at length we know that: a. Even most of them accept that at least basic selective breeding works...
And b. It would not have been morally wrong to kill off all the male lines of an entire tribe keeping only unbred females of their tribe to breed with... Thus selecting against the genetic male rather than the culture itself... Otherwise the the possibly pregnant women would not also have had to die.


Thus it can be claimed that selected breeding of humans is not biblically wrong (do not allow your enemies to breed by killing even unborn or infant males)...
And we also know selected breeding of humans would work... although I do imagine it could back fire pretty quickly...

Does the bible prohibit castrating slaves, prisoners, criminals or so on? It clearly allows the wiping out of undesired male lines by killing at the very least... :-D

Stercus Accidit

Jakkass wrote: »

What defines a "sexual advance" according to this study? Is it merely the claim that one has been "sexually advanced" or by evidencing that the act actually took place?

Scepticism of claims of sexual abuse of the clergy hasn't proved to be a good thing yet, cough cough, ryan report. After all, they have been placed on a moral platform often for no good reason, they are in a position of power and righteousness over others, there is a community stigma about even coming forward about such an abuse, they have been forced to live an unnatural sexual lifestyle because of superstitions.

While it is valid to want a clearer definition of the accusations, the church has proven to be an exploiter of their position, so I'd be a lot less sceptical of an accusation brought against them, especially given the risks to the accuser.
I'd be happy enough if these advances were limited to grown single women or men and with normal social norms of dating, rather than the alternative.

Interestingly pH leaves out the section in the article dealing with measures that have been taken by people in religious groups to try and limit sexual abuse in the article from the Rabbinical Assembly of Conservative Rabbis to the United Church of Christ.

Limit sexual abuse? How about informing the authorities and pursuing prosecutions where necessary, rather than acting on the premise that the church is the one true law, its members above the laws of the plebs.

This is something which can only be praised.

Except for the endemic nature of cover ups and self imposed slaps on the wrist, example, RCC. Leave the policing to the police, and maybe long term jail sentences and public prosecution will limit sexual abuses.

philologos

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

While it is valid to want a clearer definition of the accusations, the church has proven to be an exploiter of their position, so I'd be a lot less sceptical of an accusation brought against them, especially given the risks to the accuser.

Your basically saying, accept the study as it says without thinking about the finer detail.

pH's article also shows us in detail how the churches and the synagogues in the USA have put measures in place to stop this from happening in their churches again. Isn't that to be praised?

I'm quite aware that this has happened in the past, I question the figures and their accuracy nonetheless.

As for "the church", what church, this study includes numerous different denominations.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

I'd be happy enough if these advances were limited to grown single women or men and with normal social norms of dating, rather than the alternative.

As would I, I hardly support adultery.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Limit sexual abuse? How about informing the authorities and pursuing prosecutions where necessary, rather than acting on the premise that the church is the one true law, its members above the laws of the plebs.

Read the article. Please just do.

In the United Church of Christ, ministers must attend a workshop on clergy sexual abuse every three years, and those seeking jobs in the ministry must have their names checked against government sex offender lists, said the Rev. J. Bennett Guess, spokesman for the 1.2 million-member denomination.

Most already do cooperate with the police and authorities.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Except for the endemic nature of cover ups and self imposed slaps on the wrist, example, RCC. Leave the policing to the police, and maybe long term jail sentences and public prosecution will limit sexual abuses.

Why do you assume that I am supportive of this? I'm not here to defend the Catholic Church and their involvement in child abuse.

1 in 33 is actually quite low in comparison. It shouldn't be happening at all, but the churches in the US seem to be getting their acts together to deal with it.

Considering that 1 in 4 females in Ireland are sexually abused as children, this rate is very good.

Galvasean

Jakkass wrote: »

Considering that 1 in 4 females in Ireland are sexually abused as children, this rate is very good.

Woah! Are you serious? Source?

philologos

Galvasean wrote: »

Woah! Are you serious? Source?

Apologies, one in five, but still an atrocious statistic.
One in six for males.

http://www.oneinfour.org/about/irishstatistics/

Dades

^^ I don't believe those statistics. ^^

As in, I question their validity.

kiffer

1 in 5 women reported sexual contact before the age of 17... Then by the next paragraph sexual contact becomes abuse... How do the define abuse?

To be blunt I don't count sex between 'consenting' 16 year olds as being anything close to child abuse... I've a funny feeling this site might count it as such