The Hazards of Belief

obplayer

bigmo2310 wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

Life in a Christian 'fundamentalist' school in the UK



This thing that I dont get about this is how is there not more fuss over what these schools teach. What do OFSTED do all day? This school teaches that evolution doesnt exist or that homosexuality is wrong! Can you imagine if someone opened an independant school teaching that Hitler was right, or that the second world war never happened, or worse still if this was an islamic school? The Daily mail would jizz in their pants over the amount of leverage they could give that. Its an absolute joke.

My feeling is that everyone is afraid of being accused of not being PC. You are not allowed to say that some values are simply wrong.

Brian Shanahan

bigmo2310 wrote: »

This thing that I dont get about this is how is there not more fuss over what these schools teach. What do OFSTED do all day? This school teaches that evolution doesnt exist or that homosexuality is wrong! Can you imagine if someone opened an independant school teaching that Hitler was right, or that the second world war never happened, or worse still if this was an islamic school? The Daily mail would jizz in their pants over the amount of leverage they could give that. Its an absolute joke.

The thing about the current government and Tubercollosis Baccilli's before it is that they are very keen on religiosity. Therefore any school with a religious push (unless it's a muslim push in a state comp.) gets severe lattitude for what it can and can't do.

For example in the early days of TB, it was revealed that he pushed Emmanuel Schools Foundation, a company set up by Peter Vardy (a man who got rich off selling cars in the NE of England) specifically to set up schools that taught creationism and other nutball christian ideas, very strongly in the academisation process (where a person could get to own a state built, state maintained and state staffed school for a one-off payment of £2m, about 1/10 of the annual maintenance costs of the average school back in the '90's {must have been looking at the Irish system}). When it was revealed TB said of it:
“I’ve visited one of the schools in question and as far as I’m aware they are teaching the curriculum in a normal way. If I notice creationism becoming the mainstream of the education system in this country then that’s the time to start worrying."


And then you've got the current situation where Ofsted will send people sharing the religion of a religious school to inspect them. And the more fundamentalist the school, the more fundamentalist the inspector, if possible. So you get people who think it is their duty to protect the spreading of the gospel/torah/[insert holy book] message going in and deciding on the fitness of the educational system an increasing percentage of the English & Welsh youth are experiencing (as academisation and "free" schools are being forced in everywhere, and taking over a large part of the education system).

the_eman

A reservoir of water 3 times larger than all the oceans identified near Earth's core? How about we name it 'The Sea of Noah'?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25723-massive-ocean-discovered-towards-earths-core.html#.U5t_Sioa3y4.twitter

pauldla

the_eman wrote: »

A reservoir of water 3 times larger than all the oceans identified near Earth's core? How about we name it 'The Sea of Noah'?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25723-massive-ocean-discovered-towards-earths-core.html#.U5t_Sioa3y4.twitter

Oh I'm sure some already have...

Hotblack Desiato

I know this sounds bad, but anyone got a more reputable source than New Scientist?

Brian Shanahan

ninja900 wrote: »

I know this sounds bad, but anyone got a more reputable source than New Scientist?

I know what you mean, my brother once described NS to me as the Daily Mail of the popular scientific literature.

the_eman

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I know what you mean, my brother once described NS to me as the Daily Mail of the popular scientific literature.

So I wonder when the flood waters come over the people in Noah's time were the people saying "Ohh, maybe we should have paid heed to those trashy old lower class rags we tend to look down upon".

obplayer

the_eman wrote: »

A reservoir of water 3 times larger than all the oceans identified near Earth's core? How about we name it 'The Sea of Noah'?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25723-massive-ocean-discovered-towards-earths-core.html#.U5t_Sioa3y4.twitter

http://blueandgreentomorrow.com/2014/06/13/huge-underground-ocean-discovered-near-earths-core/

"The water is not in liquid form – it is not even ice or vapor. It is trapped inside the molecular structure of the minerals acting like sponges in the mantle rock. Thanks to the intense pressure and temperatures of more than 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit, some water is squeezed out of the rock as if it were sweating, lead author of the study Steve Jacobsen, of Northwestern University, explained ".

I think it would take a very long time for the flood to have happened that way, and before you say 'but God can do anything!', why not give up trying to find scientific explanations then? Just say to everything 'God did it!'. I asked this question in primary school and was told to stand in the back of the class.

Nodin

the_eman wrote: »

So I wonder when the flood waters come over the people in Noah's time were the people saying "Ohh, maybe we should have paid heed to those trashy old lower class rags we tend to look down upon".

No, because there was no "Noah's time" or flood.

Hotblack Desiato

It rained a bit heavily somewhere in the middle east for a few days a couple of thousand years ago and somehow the story got blown out of all proportion...

Brian Shanahan

the_eman wrote: »

So I wonder when the flood waters come over the people in Noah's time were the people saying "Ohh, maybe we should have paid heed to those trashy old lower class rags we tend to look down upon".

I'm sorry but I don't treat fictional stories as if they were true. Please either try to find a real event to fit your analogy, or rework your analogy to acknowledge the fictionality of the "flood" and the books from which you got the story.

PopePalpatine

obplayer wrote: »

http://blueandgreentomorrow.com/2014/06/13/huge-underground-ocean-discovered-near-earths-core/

"The water is not in liquid form – it is not even ice or vapor. It is trapped inside the molecular structure of the minerals acting like sponges in the mantle rock. Thanks to the intense pressure and temperatures of more than 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit, some water is squeezed out of the rock as if it were sweating, lead author of the study Steve Jacobsen, of Northwestern University, explained ".

It's almost as if creationists are ignoring this bit because it dumps another few shovelfuls of dirt onto the grave of their myth's scientific accuracy. :rolleyes:

AstraMonti

Penn

It is funny to think that a common criticism against atheists is that because they don't believe in God/afterlife, there's nothing to stop them going out and killing people. Yet if someone did go out and kill people, but then started believing in God/afterlife, that's fine. Welcome to Heaven, buddy!

kylith

I wonder if those Christians would be so welcoming if they knew that Dahmer was gay.

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/mcaleese-asking-bishops-advise-on-family-life-bonkers-1.1834452

Former president Mary McAleese has described as “completely bonkers” Pope Francis’s plan to ask a synod of bishops to advise him on whether church teaching on the family should change.

She said there was “just something profoundly wrong and skewed” about asking “150 male celibates” to review the Catholic Church’s teaching on family life.

Commenting on a planned October synod in Rome on the issue, she said: “The very idea of 150 people who have decided they are not going to have any children, not going to have families, not going to be fathers and not going to be spouses - so they have no adult experience of family life as the rest of us know it - but they are going to advise the pope on family life; it is completely bonkers.”

...


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/the-cumulative-effect-of-scandals-has-a-devastating-impact-on-the-church-1.1834370

The cumulative effect of scandals has a devastating impact on the Church
<snip>
Church people are angry too. It’s easy to say that was then and this is now, that society was different 50 years ago, but one expects the church to operate to a higher moral standard, irrespective of time or place.

Church people are also angry that this story has been spun in a sensationalist way that presents the church in the worst possible light.

There is also the gleeful anger of those presented with another opportunity to crucify the church. They are genuinely outraged by the Tuam revelations, but they are thrilled that the church is on the defensive again. Comments on social media reveal the depth of their antipathy.

I mean, really???

I'm not thrilled, I'm sickened, angry and appalled - but not one bit surprised, unfortunately.

Nobody wants more revelations of shocking scandals like this. It'd be nice to think that there are no more horrors still to be discovered, but sadly that's unlikely to be the case. We must expose the whole truth as best we can.

The church does know where all the bodies are buried, though, including the scandals that haven't yet come to light. They want as much as possible of past scandal to be hidden and forgotten about, they want the things which are revealed to be drip-fed over as long a period as possible. They want the public to become desensitised to it.

Nodin

ninja900 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/mcaleese-asking-bishops-advise-on-family-life-bonkers-1.1834452


..........

Has the light gone on in Marys head? Never seemed to in her husbands.

kylith

ninja900 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/mcaleese-asking-bishops-advise-on-family-life-bonkers-1.1834452

Former president Mary McAleese has described as “completely bonkers” Pope
Francis’s plan to ask a synod of bishops to advise him on whether church
teaching on the family should change.

She said there was “just something
profoundly wrong and skewed” about asking “150 male celibates” to review the
Catholic Church’s teaching on family life.

Commenting on a planned
October synod in Rome on the issue, she said: “The very idea of 150 people who
have decided they are not going to have any children, not going to have
families, not going to be fathers and not going to be spouses - so they have no
adult experience of family life as the rest of us know it - but they are going
to advise the pope on family life; it is completely bonkers.”

It was something like this that got me on the path to atheism. When I was about 12 the priest was giving a homily about how to raise children and I remember thinking 'what does he know about raising children, he doesn't have any'. That got me thinking about what else he might be talking about that he didn't know anything about, and here I am now, godless, all because Fr. L. waffled on about something he was ignorant about.

SebBerkovich

ninja900 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/the-cumulative-effect-of-scandals-has-a-devastating-impact-on-the-church-1.1834370

So... among the many awful things written in this terrible piece

Though some critics will never believe it, and no institution can ever be perfect, [..]

An organization that let 800 dead babies die in it's care is "not perfect" that might be the worlds greatest understatement.

the church is a far safer environment now for the vulnerable than ever before.

:

Safer?... than a place that institutionalized rape and helped hide paedophiles within it's ranks... it sure as **** better be, the bar could not possibly be any lower!

recedite

kylith wrote: »

I wonder if those Christians would be so welcoming if they knew that Dahmer was gay.

From my understanding of it, they think he has been cured of that, and all his other vices, by the "grace of god" falling upon him. Shortly before he got beaten to death. A brutal death probably makes him seem holy in their eyes. Atonement and martyrdom and all that $hit.

Hotblack Desiato

The religion of peace claims more victims:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-27862510

At least 48 people have died after al-Qaeda-linked militants attacked hotels and a police station in a Kenyan coastal town, officials say.
...
The BBC's Anne Soy in Mpeketoni says she was told the gunmen shot dead anyone who was unable to recite verses from the Koran.

obplayer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKDlyjce-UM

It's a funny commonality with "liberalism" and Christianity, the "sure we're all as bad as each other" stuff. :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

A confession.

Today I -

- voluntarily attended a church, despite the fact that no ceremony on behalf of a friend or relative was taking place;

- voluntarily contributed to a church collection;

- brought my children along to participate in the madness;

:eek:


It's our 'village' (large suburb) festival this weekend and as part of this, our local CoI is having an open day. Seeing as Kid A goes the CoI school next door (and Kid B is on the waiting list) we thought we'd see what the story is with all this crazy non-RC worship thing. It's not the way we were brought up!

I wasn't sure if it was worse to be a catholic (-ex!) or atheist going in there, but in spite of all the things I was told in my upbringing, I didn't burst into flames and it all looked deceptively normal in there. Quite nice and neat and tidy actually. That's them protestants for you, lure you in with order and bake sales and cleanliness :pac:

Turned out the fella snoozing in a deck chair at the door was the vicar, he's a laid back kinda guy

We went up to the upper level, the ability to play 'C'mon baby light my fire' on the church organ would have been phenomenal but the flesh was lacking. Had a Father Dougal 'do not press this button' moment when passing the bell rope, although I resisted the temptation, but no sooner had we gone down the stairs than someone else rang it :rolleyes: and the vicar didn't even mind. Bah.

Put a few quid into the restoration fund. It can do with it and it's an architectural landmark nationally never mind locally.

Went out back and looked at the 1000 year old celtic crosses and wondered whose unmarked grave I may have been standing on to do so :eek: there's part of an old church wall too which is a national monument

There's a round tower across the road but that long since ceased to be part of the church's property, although it must have been at one point. At least the OPW seem to be doing a good job of looking after it. We got tickets to a tour of it last year (didn't apply this year as Kid B is too young and would object to being left out) and a heritage centre is due to be built.

Turtwig

ninja900 banned

Bannasidhe

Turtwig wrote: »

ninja900 banned

Quite right too.

I know for a fact he recently purchased a book by A. Rand.

Purge him!

PURGE HIM WITH FIRE!

:pac:

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Quite right too.

I know for a fact he recently purchased a book by A. Rand.

Purge him!

PURGE HIM WITH FIRE!

:pac:

uh oh :pac:

Nodin

Good news...yes, it happens.

"A court in Khartoum has ordered the release of a Christian woman on death row, according to Sudan's state news agency.
Meriam Ibrahim was sentenced to 100 lashes for adultery and was to be hanged for apostasy after refusing to renounce her faith last month. Her case has become the focus of an international campaign.
"The appeal court ordered the release of Meriam Yahya [Ibrahim] and the cancellation of the [previous] court ruling," Sudan's SUNA news agency said on Monday."


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/sudan-announces-release-meriam-ibrahim-death-row

Bellatori

Nodin wrote: »

Good news...yes, it happens.

"A court in Khartoum has ordered the release of a Christian woman on death row, according to Sudan's state news agency.
Meriam Ibrahim was sentenced to 100 lashes for adultery and was to be hanged for apostasy after refusing to renounce her faith last month. Her case has become the focus of an international campaign.
"The appeal court ordered the release of Meriam Yahya [Ibrahim] and the cancellation of the [previous] court ruling," Sudan's SUNA news agency said on Monday."


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/sudan-announces-release-meriam-ibrahim-death-row

Somewhat old news really... brought about by appeals from Islam, the religion of peace? Probably not... I doubt most of the world's muslims care, those that do are probably like the 36% (Pew Research) of British muslims who think a death sentence for apostasy is just fine and dandy.

This result was brought about by threats of immediate withdrawal of millions in foreign aid. Money talks...

Can't believe that woman was forced to give birth shackled to the ground
I know it happens other places too and the whole thing is horrible

Nodin

bluewolf wrote: »

Can't believe that woman was forced to give birth shackled to the ground
I know it happens other places too and the whole thing is horrible

On a side note and not to deflect from the main issue - Unfortunately giving birth shackled in some form is not confined to the places one might think though, and seems to have nothing to with religion. You'd expect it in less enlightened patriarchal parts.

I never would have expected this, for instance, which is the state in connection with I first heard of the practice
https://ihrclinic.uchicago.edu/page/shackling-pregnant-prisoners-united-states

Nodin

Bellatori wrote: »

Somewhat old news really... brought about by appeals from Islam, the religion of peace? ............

There really is nothing worse that the sweeping generalisation.

Bellatori

Nodin wrote: »

There really is nothing worse that the sweeping generalisation.

Well, yes, I suppose calling it the religion of peace was a rather sweeping generalisation.

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

uh oh :pac:

We put up with you because of the calming blue and your tolerance with my editing bad
grammar into your post.

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

On a side note and not to deflect from the main issue - Unfortunately giving birth shackled in some form is not confined to the places one might think though, and seems to have nothing to with religion. You'd expect it in less enlightened patriarchal parts.

I never would have expected this, for instance, which is the state in connection with I first heard of the practice
https://ihrclinic.uchicago.edu/page/shackling-pregnant-prisoners-united-states

Oh I know - they mentioned it in "orange is the new black" and it was in the news recently too IIRC. It's inhumane :mad:

Hotblack Desiato

Nodin wrote: »

Good news...yes, it happens.

Good news - the judicial system says it no longer wants to kill her.

Bad news - some rampaging mob probably will do the deed for them

Hotblack Desiato

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Quite right too.

I know for a fact he recently purchased a book by A. Rand.

Purge him!

PURGE HIM WITH FIRE!

:pac:

Look, all I said was, this piece of halibut a jaffa cake really is a cake, stale biscuits go soft but cakes go hard, and McVities took the UK VAT man to court to prove it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_cake#Categorisation_as_cake_or_biscuit_for_VAT

QED.

Hotblack Desiato

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/generations

"Generations: 10 decades of Irish life
The interviews in this series, conducted by Rosita Boland, reveal perspectives on our country from nonagenarians to people in their twenties. They will combine to form a compelling account of Ireland over the past century."


So far they have interviewed people who are 90+, 80+ and 70+

Most say they are weekly or daily mass-goers, and describe themselves as catholic

However many of them are rather less sure on the afterlife question. For example:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/i-don-t-understand-all-the-moaning-about-seamus-heaney-his-poetry-didn-t-rhyme-1.1750697?page=2

Luck plays a big part in life. Blessings from God, I call it. I’ve been very lucky in my life. If I was in any crisis I’d call on the Lord to help me, and he generally does. I’m a Catholic, and my faith is very important.

I go to Mass every Sunday, and unless the weather is cold I go every morning. I feel I have a lot to thank the Lord for, and the least I might do is to go to church.

Death possibly is the end, I think. I don’t ask any questions, though. I’m not one for probing. I just keep going to Mass and paying my respects to the Boss.

We often discuss cultural catholicism here but it always seems to be 30, 40, 50-somethings that people have in mind. Not habitual massgoers and not the OAP generations. It seems that even among the RCC's strongest demographic, doubt and disbelief is rife even if abandonment of ritual isn't.

Another example:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/dan-gallagher-87-i-go-to-mass-every-morning-partly-to-see-who-s-still-alive-1.1789648?page=2

I do think there’s a very strong possibility that there’s an afterlife of some form. I go to Mass every morning, partly to see who’s still alive, but partly in case there is a hereafter. I suppose you could say I have a bet on both horses. Sometimes I feel like death is the end of it.

It’s a much simpler thought, and in recent years, that’s where I’m coming from. What would I be doing in heaven only playing cards with other people who got in too? But if there is a heaven, there has to be a hell. So I still say my prayers, just in case.

RikuoAmero

ninja900 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/generations

"Generations: 10 decades of Irish life
The interviews in this series, conducted by Rosita Boland, reveal perspectives on our country from nonagenarians to people in their twenties. They will combine to form a compelling account of Ireland over the past century."


So far they have interviewed people who are 90+, 80+ and 70+

Most say they are weekly or daily mass-goers, and describe themselves as catholic

However many of them are rather less sure on the afterlife question. For example:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/i-don-t-understand-all-the-moaning-about-seamus-heaney-his-poetry-didn-t-rhyme-1.1750697?page=2



We often discuss cultural catholicism here but it always seems to be 30, 40, 50-somethings that people have in mind. Not habitual massgoers and not the OAP generations. It seems that even among the RCC's strongest demographic, doubt and disbelief is rife even if abandonment of ritual isn't.

Another example:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/dan-gallagher-87-i-go-to-mass-every-morning-partly-to-see-who-s-still-alive-1.1789648?page=2

Pascal's Wager...jebus, it should be mandatory that people get an education in logical fallacies before being allowed to pick a religion or none at all.

norrie rugger

Nodin wrote: »

There really is nothing worse that the sweeping generalisation.

As opposed to forcing a woman to give birth, under threat of death, while shackled to the floor???

Really? Nothing worse?

Nodin

norrie rugger wrote: »

As opposed to forcing a woman to give birth, under threat of death, while shackled to the floor???

Really? Nothing worse?

What do you think got her there? Some crap about all Christians doing x, y and z if they convert.

norrie rugger

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-24/sudanese-woman-freed-after-apostasy-case-re-arrested-at-airport.html


Rearrested trying to leave the country??

Nodin

norrie rugger wrote: »

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-24/sudanese-woman-freed-after-apostasy-case-re-arrested-at-airport.html


Rearrested trying to leave the country??

Sad, pathetic and cowardly behaviour.

Bellatori

Nodin wrote: »

Sad, pathetic and cowardly behaviour.

Indeed.... listening to radio 4 this morning before this broke it was suggested that the delay in anything happening was that a lot of Christian groups had protested and the Sudan Gov't did not want to be seen bowing to pressure from them hence the delay. Clearly the EU and US need to make it clear that they DO mean business when they stated they would cut the aid budget. What worries me is that they are now focussed on Syria and this woman will be left to the mercies of Sudan.

recedite

I go to Mass every morning, partly to see who’s still alive...

They say that the birds sing in the mornings for the same reason.

Nodin

recedite wrote: »

They say that the birds sing in the mornings for the same reason.

Reminds me of the grandmother. Ear glued to the death notices on Radio Na Gaeltachta.

Bannasidhe

Nodin wrote: »

Reminds me of the grandmother. Ear glued to the death notices on Radio Na Gaeltachta.

Or John Lydon's 'Religion'

'Do you pray to the Holy Ghost
When you suck your host?
Do you read who's dead
In the Irish Post?

Do you give away
The cash you can't afford?
On bended knees
And pray to Lord'

Hotblack Desiato

Nodin wrote: »

Reminds me of the grandmother. Ear glued to the death notices on Radio Na Gaeltachta.

Sure they don't know themselves nowadays with the rip.ie app. (if there isn't one, there should be!)

Cabaal

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28010234

A Nigerian man has been sent to a mental institute in Kano state after he declared that he did not believe in God, according to a humanist charity.

Mubarak Bala, 29, is said to have been forcibly medicated by his Muslim relatives, despite being given a clean bill of health by a doctor.

Nodin

Cabaal wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28010234

'Take drugs, they'll help you believe'.