The Hazards of Belief

recedite

As he's a chemical engineering graduate, he probably knows more about the drugs than the people shoving them down his throat. But that won't get him out of there.

Hotblack Desiato

So.. if the alternative is incarceration or death, is it rational to refuse to fake belief?

obplayer

ninja900 wrote: »

So.. if the alternative is incarceration or death, is it rational to refuse to fake belief?

But unfortunately sometimes things only change when enough people are willing to stand up and say 'this is nonsense'. As long as no-one is willing to do this the irrational and deluded religious mob will get away with their craziness.
Having said that I am quite willing to admit I am vey uncertain whether I would have the courage to do what this man has done, but I salute him and all like him and hope that in a similar situation I wold be brave enough to do likewise.

Hotblack Desiato

Well, put it this way - if I could avoid, say, losing my job or property, or having to skip the country, or facing threats of serious physical harm, for myself by suffering some minor inconvenience for half an hour a week and uttering some mumbo-jumbo I didn't believe in, it might be worth doing. And none of these are as bad as prison or a death sentence. It's not the courageous thing to do but if you believe you've only one life to live, martyrdom becomes a lot less attractive.

A lot of grown adult cultural catholics here are doing the exact same thing rather than risk a row with their mammy FFS...

obplayer

ninja900 wrote: »

Well, put it this way - if I could avoid, say, losing my job or property, or having to skip the country, or facing threats of serious physical harm, for myself by suffering some minor inconvenience for half an hour a week and uttering some mumbo-jumbo I didn't believe in, it might be worth doing. And none of these are as bad as prison or a death sentence. It's not the courageous thing to do but if you believe you've only one life to live, martyrdom becomes a lot less attractive.

A lot of grown adult cultural catholics here are doing the exact same thing rather than risk a row with their mammy FFS...

And if everyone thought that way we would still be living in the middle ages. Which is why I salute the man and hope, not by any means know but hope, that I would do likewise in his situation.
As for the grown adults who won't risk a row with their mammy....words fail me.

Hotblack Desiato

I didn't ask whether it was right to resist, but whether it is rational.

obplayer

ninja900 wrote: »

I didn't ask whether it was right to resist, but whether it is rational.

That depends on whether you are thinking of just your life now or of future lives. Dealing with global warming makes no sense if you are just thinking of your own life but if you are thinking of the lives of your descendants', and your families descendants', it does make sense.

Turtwig

I wonder this too. Especially when you consider that throughout history many revolutionaries grew up in relative prosperity but still risked their lives so others could have a better standard of living. That takes an unbelievable amount of courage. Or perhaps, more cynically, a public death wish. The hypothesis that some humans have a desire to be martyrs. Dying for something as opposed to dying for nothing.

Me? I think I'm a coward if radical Islam took root here I'd probably just keep my head down, stay out of trouble and try to keep doing what I'm allowed to do. While being as nice as possible to others. I'm simply too scared to lose whatever quality of life I have. I suspect many people I know would be the same too. To rebel would likely mean death or worse!

What about you guys would you rebel?

Don't get me wrong I'm (we're?) grateful that people do rebel for better standards of living. I just don't think I'd be one of them.

Thankfully these days protesting don't really carry much risk in our society. Probably its greatest virtue.

smacl

ninja900 wrote: »

I didn't ask whether it was right to resist, but whether it is rational.

Personally, I don't think martyrdom is either rational or sensible, and would question how much long term good a martyr does for their cause other than briefly placing it in the spot light. Reading stories on Amnesty international, causes seem better served by working for them over protracted periods of time, often involving a life time of small sacrifices. While I fully accept that some people will be entirely intransigent when it comes a fundamental point of principal, it is my belief that there is often more to be gained by playing the long game.

If you think about it, martyrs are essentially fundamentalists, which would make me wary of them.

legspin

ninja900 wrote: »

Sure they don't know themselves nowadays with the rip.ie app. (if there isn't one, there should be!)

Maybe it's just me but I find it quite ghoulish. My wife loves it though.

recedite

Every right thinking person should be prepared to make some small sacrifice for "the community" even where the cost/benefits ratio to themselves personally does not add up. Even if this means just picking up a piece of broken glass from the sand when leaving a beach that you will not be returning to. Or trying not to contribute to global warming. Martyring yourself is something else entirely.
Getting back to this Nigerian guy, we don't know much about him, but I would not be surprised if he was somewhat "unorthodox" mentally, perhaps he is further along than most on the autistic spectrum. Maybe the local mullahs are using this as an excuse to incarcerate him, because he has challenged their belief system. When in fact a guy like that could be a valuable member of society, given the right job. He could be a Nigerian version of Sheldon Cooper

RoiSoleil

recedite wrote: »

Every right thinking person should be prepared to make some small sacrifice for "the community" even where the cost/benefits ratio to themselves personally does not add up.

This is interesting when you consider the highly individualistic nature of right wing American christianity found in the Republican Party.

recedite

I meant right as opposed to wrong, in terms of ethics, but yes right wing politics is more individualistic than left wing. Whether right wingers are excessively so is open to debate. They would obviously not agree with that themselves. But looking at the character of Jesus in the bible, he is portrayed as a lefty, and not individualistic at all.

Nodin

Now and again something happens to remind one that there was a time when being in a certain kind band was viewed as almost being in a subversive organisation. Unfortunately its still like that in certain places.....


I recommend the video, as it shows some rarely seen Russian Orthodox martial arts.
http://www.metalinjection.net/shocking-revelations/marilyn-manson-shows-in-russia-cancelled-thanks-to-religious-extremists

robindch

Could pubs be open on Dry Friday next year? Fine Gael's Imelda Henry seems to think it's a runner.

http://www.thejournal.ie/pubs-good-friday-1552389-Jul2014/

The Journal wrote:

Imelda Henry wrote:

“THE CLOSURE OF pubs on Good Friday is a legacy of our past which does not recognise the massive changes in the country and the manner in which pubs have changed in recent times. I believe it is high time we moved on from this outdated law.”

That’s the view of Fine Gael Imelda Henry who has published a Bill that would make it legal for pubs to serve alcohol on Good Friday. The legislation will soon be debated in the Seanad. Henry is a publican from Sligo who was nominated to the upper house by the Vintners Federation of Ireland. She said that the ban was “no longer realistic”, but added that pub owners could remain closed on Good Friday if they wished to do so for religious reasons.

Imelda Henry wrote:

“The Irish pub has evolved significantly in recent years. Almost 60% of Irish pubs now serve food. I believe that it is no longer realistic to expect one key sector in our hospitality industry to close on a day when shops, restaurants and other businesses are open.

The pub is an intrinsic part of the Irish tourism experience, both for domestic and international visitors. Research shows that pubs are one of the top three tourist experiences and one of Ireland’s top selling points.

At Easter weekend, a time when many people take a break, I believe they should be able to avail of the Irish pub experience. If any publican wishes to remain closed on Good Friday for religious reasons they would of course be free to do so.”

LeinsterDub

If the pubs close will I be expected to work good Friday? I'd rather the free day off to be honest

robindch

The Egyptian government decides to deploy a team of psychiatrists to "eradicate atheism" and other kinds of "profanity" from the country:

http://richarddawkins.net/2014/06/govt-announces-campaign-to-save-youth-from-atheism/

Turtwig

This is phase one of the psychiatrists plan to take over the galaxy. Mark my words!

recedite

robindch wrote: »

The Egyptian government decides to deploy a team of psychiatrists to "eradicate atheism" and other kinds of "profanity" from the country:

http://richarddawkins.net/2014/06/govt-announces-campaign-to-save-youth-from-atheism/

Turky pointed to the ongoing standoff between politics and religion, and arguments concerning how those two realms should ideally interact, as direct causes for an upsurge in both religious extremism and atheism.
“The ongoing conflict will lead youth to either be religious extremists or push them more toward profanity and atheism,” Turky claimed.

He seems to be saying that the youth now recognise the part religion has played in fueling the ongoing conflict, and so they either choose to join in the fight as fundamentalists, or opt out as atheists. Interesting that he singles out the Sinai peninsula as the worst offender. Its a touristy area between Israel and Eqypt, long exposed to westerners visiting the Red Sea resorts on the southern tip of Sinai, and quite a few Israeli tourists go there too.

Brian Shanahan

recedite wrote: »

He seems to be saying that the youth now recognise the part religion has played in fueling the ongoing conflict, and so they either choose to join in the fight as fundamentalists, or opt out as atheists. Interesting that he singles out the Sinai peninsula as the worst offender. Its a touristy area between Israel and Eqypt, long exposed to westerners visiting the Red Sea resorts on the southern tip of Sinai, and quite a few Israeli tourists go there too.

Actually the probable reason is a bit more prosaic. Sinai is a stronghold of the Muslim Brotherhood, so it is the main focus of the opposition to the military dictatorship which overthrew Morsi in a coup d'etat (not that I'm a fan of Morsi or the MB, but a democratically elected president is the rightful leader of a country no matter how much you dislike him, and also the military is a lot worse than the MB in Egypt).

recedite

Yes, on re-reading the article he says "previously" they targeted religious fundamentalism in Sinai. Now it seems that they will target atheism and lack of belief, presumably as a sop to keep the MB supporters "less unhappy".
In Sinai the native Bedouin typically live inland, are uneducated, are very religious and generally resent any Israeli presence (with good reason).
Egyptians working in the resorts on the coast are very different, much more laid back and open to Israeli and western people and ideas (and money).

robindch

"Russian Priest: World Cup is a ‘homosexual abomination’ because players wear gay shoes"

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/07/07/priest-world-cup-is-a-homosexual-abomination-because-players-wear-gay-shoes

Pink News wrote:

A Russian Orthodox Priest has claimed that the World Cup is an abomination because players wear brightly-coloured shoes. Writing in his column on Russian People’s Line, Priest Alexander Shumsky claimed that players are promoting a “gay rainbow” by wearing green, pink, yellow and blue shoes.

He said: “Wearing pink or blue shoes, [the players] might as well wear women’s panties or a bra. “The liberal ideology of globalism clearly wants to oppose Christianity with football. I’m sure of it. “Therefore I am glad that the Russian players have failed and, by the grace of God, no longer participate in this homosexual abomination.”

Russia exited the competition in the group stages, failing to win any of their three matches. The priest also criticized the “unthinkable” hairstyles of some of the players in the tournament. Last week, FIFA’s anti-discrimination boss criticised its lack of action against homophobic chants at World Cup matches.

Fans of both Brazil and Mexico fans were heard chanting homophobic insults, but FIFA dropped its investigation against Mexico, concluding that anti-gay chants by the country’s fans were “not considered insulting”.

magicbastarder

Gaoth Dobhair priest forbids yoga

http://donegalnews.com/2014/07/gaoth-dobhair-forbids-yoga/

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

"Russian Priest: World Cup is a ‘homosexual abomination’ because players wear gay shoes"

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/07/07/priest-world-cup-is-a-homosexual-abomination-because-players-wear-gay-shoes

My guess is that he lost big at the bookies and is sore over it.

Turtwig

magicbastarder wrote: »

Gaoth Dobhair priest forbids yoga

http://donegalnews.com/2014/07/gaoth-dobhair-forbids-yoga/

Actually know a few Catholics who took to the running craze that has engulfed the country. They don't agree with yoga because of spiritual stuff. However, when they heard yoga supposedly prevents injuries they started practising it. It's ok though because it isn't for spiritual reasons. Dafuq?

TheChizler

Just discovered one of our old UCC Electrical Engineering lecturers has a Jesus-blog. He reads like an academic Waters; one of the titles is The divergence of faith and faculty. Has put a whole new perspective on the time I laughed off being told that was proof of god.

Nodin

Turtwig wrote: »

Actually know a few Catholics who took to the running craze that has engulfed the country. They don't agree with yoga because of spiritual stuff. However, when they heard yoga supposedly prevents injuries they started practising it. It's ok though because it isn't for spiritual reasons. Dafuq?

I was under the impression that Yoga (as practised in the "West"), was stripped of Religious connotations......

recedite

The stretching exercises are irreligious, but there is some element of commonality between chanting prayers in a church and meditation/mind relaxation during yoga, such that there is an element of competion between the two. Plus the fear that it can lead to "Buddhism through the back door".

There seems to be a big craze for angels at the moment too. Someone says the other day "are you interested in angels?" as if it was a TV program or a sport or something. You'd think the church authorities would be concerned about the wackyness of that, but it doesnt lead anywhere except back to Christianity in the end, so they don't seem to mind.

Vivisectus

I came across that stuff a few years ago. To my utter bafflement I came across a group of about 16 middle-aged ladies who seemed to be enthusiastically engaging in what I can only describe as re-inventing a vaguely Christian-based animism.

They had little statues and shrines, passed angel-booklets around, made little offerings and prayers to these angels, swapped anecdotes on how these angels had helped them in various miraculous ways and seemed to be quite enthusiastic about the whole thing.

I was fascinated. It was like watching a new type of Voodoo being born.

the_monkey

Ramadan on again ... ridicolous , people working in jobs that they are responsible for the safety of others (drivers etc) and they are hungry and a danger to themselves and others.

But it has a "religious" reason so they can't be touched for it - if I did the same and said "I'm on an extreme diet" i'd be sacked.

RTE radio being PC and giving this rubbish air time...

SebBerkovich

the_monkey wrote: »

Ramadan on again ... ridicolous , people working in jobs that they are responsible for the safety of others (drivers etc) and they are hungry and a danger to themselves and others.

But it has a "religious" reason so they can't be touched for it - if I did the same and said "I'm on an extreme diet" i'd be sacked.

RTE radio being PC and giving this rubbish air time...

Can't say i agree with you, i'm generally of the opinion that people have the right to diet as they see fit. As long as no one else is adversely affect by their actions.

I see it as a civil liberties issue, not a religious one.

the_monkey

SebBerkovich wrote: »

Can't say i agree with you, i'm generally of the opinion that people have the right to diet as they see fit. As long as no one else is adversely affect by their actions.

I see it as a civil liberties issue, not a religious one.

Normally I'd agree, but when they are putting other peoples lives in danger it's not on , I had a friend in holiday in Morocco last year and he told me how the bus driver nearly crashed, also his taxi driver had an incident too , maybe it's not a big deal in Ireland, but in most of the muslim world it's quite hot right now

Brian Shanahan

TheChizler wrote: »

that was proof of god.

I duck duck goed "mathematical proof of god" to see how they try and justify that statement (if you have such handy I'd be happy to receive a link), and came across this nuttyness from Ask.com. A funny read, if it weren't so sad.

PopePalpatine

I'm watching "Jesus Camp" on Netflix right now, and...bloody hell, it's like the camp workers and attendees are a Christian ISIS (not the agency Sterling Archer works for, of course).

Nodin

"FORMER presidential candidate and Eurovision song contest winner Dana Rosemary Scallon arranged treatment for her brother in the 1970s after he was accused of indecently assaulting a child, a court has heard.

The opening day of the trial of John Brown (60) - who is accused of five charges of indecent assault against two children - heard Ms Scallon told the child’s mother that he had been cured after seeing a priest. "
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/dana-told-childs-mother-her-sex-abuse-accused-brother-would-be-cured-by-priest-court-hears-30419238.html

Sweet jesus tonight.......

TheChizler

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I duck duck goed "mathematical proof of god" to see how they try and justify that statement (if you have such handy I'd be happy to receive a link), and came across this nuttyness from Ask.com. A funny read, if it weren't so sad.

It always amuses me how the mathematical proofs of god inevitably are based on unjustified initial assumptions, universe came from nothing, which obviously translates directly to 0 + 0 = 1 etc.

It wasn't online unfortunately, just us taking notes from him drawing on an overhead. 1/sqrt(8.8541878176.. × 10−12 F⋅m^−1 * 1.2566370614...×10−6 H⋅m^−1) equals the speed of light in free space, which of course is too perfect a coincidence therefore perfectly designed, therefore goddidit. The class just looked around at each other assuming he was joking after he said this.

PopePalpatine

Nodin wrote: »

"FORMER presidential candidate and Eurovision song contest winner Dana Rosemary Scallon arranged treatment for her brother in the 1970s after he was accused of indecently assaulting a child, a court has heard.

The opening day of the trial of John Brown (60) - who is accused of five charges of indecent assault against two children - heard Ms Scallon told the child’s mother that he had been cured after seeing a priest. "
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/dana-told-childs-mother-her-sex-abuse-accused-brother-would-be-cured-by-priest-court-hears-30419238.html

Sweet jesus tonight.......

It looks like Dana couldn't care less about a foetus when it's born.

wp_rathead

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'm watching "Jesus Camp" on Netflix right now, and...bloody hell, it's like the camp workers and attendees are a Christian ISIS (not the agency Sterling Archer works for, of course).

Saw that alright - jaysus they really hate Harry Potter

Penn

SebBerkovich wrote: »

Can't say i agree with you, i'm generally of the opinion that people have the right to diet as they see fit. As long as no one else is adversely affect by their actions.

I see it as a civil liberties issue, not a religious one.

I remember watching one of those Police Camera Action type shows maybe about two years ago. A Muslim police officer was chasing a suspect but couldn't catch him. He said himself that if he wasn't fasting for Ramadan he might have been able to catch him.

I agree completely that people have a right to fast if they want, whether it's for religious reasons or not. But there are times when fasting can have consequences on your ability to perform your job.

swampgas

TheChizler wrote: »

It wasn't online unfortunately, just us taking notes from him drawing on an overhead. 1/sqrt(8.8541878176.. × 10−12 F⋅m^−1 * 1.2566370614...×10−6 H⋅m^−1) equals the speed of light in free space, which of course is too perfect a coincidence therefore perfectly designed, therefore goddidit. The class just looked around at each other assuming he was joking after he said this.

The whole point (in my mind anyway) of c = somefunction(mu, epsilon) is that light is a wave, and waves travel at speeds dependent on the properties of the medium. So the equation is entirely unsurprising.

It's not like c, mu and epsilon are three random constants picked out of thin air that magically satisfy the equation.

TheChizler

He worked it out using some non-obvious Maxwells equations way so didn't cop the explanation; that light is an EM wave. Also was a bit in shock hearing that come out of a doctor of science's mouth.

robindch

in the Phillipines, the church is thrilled that any members who practice medicine can refuse to hand out contraceptives:

http://www.rappler.com/nation/62974-philippines-catholic-bishops-medics-birth-control

Rappler wrote:

MANILA, Philippines (UPDATED) – The Catholic Bishops' Conference of the Philippines (CBCP) said Catholic medical workers can refuse to implement provisions of the newly-approved Reproductive Health (RH) law, as the Supreme Court upheld the rights of “conscientious objectors.” The CBCP corrected a report by Agence France-Presse on Thursday, July 10, that said the CBCP “is encouraging members who are medical workers to refuse to implement a newly-approved birth control law.”

“What the CBCP brought to the attention of Catholic health care professionals are their rights as enunciated by the Supreme Court when it passed upon the law, particularly the rights of conscientious objectors,” CBCP president Lingayen-Dagupan Archbishop Socrates Villegas said Friday, July 11. “The CBCP will always urge Catholics to obey all just laws but in all things to abide by the prompting of a well-formed conscience,” Villegas said. It is the latest move by the powerful church hierarchy in the largely Catholic Philippines against the reproductive health law that was declared constitutional in April.

The law compels the state for the first time to provide free condoms and contraceptive pills. (READ: Without RH law, contraceptives will run out in Payatas) A "pastoral guidance" issued by bishops this week explains how government health workers can legally refuse to dish out contraceptives on ethical or religious grounds, Marvin Mejia, executive secretary of the Catholic Bishops Conference of the Philippines, told Agence France-Presse.

"Obviously, Catholics should not, on moral grounds, seek employment in the very government agencies that promote artificial contraception," reads the guidance. (READ: Next in RH battle: Full implementation by DOH, LGUs) "But if circumstances compelled them to be employed in such agencies...said Catholics should be aware that they cannot be forced to promote, distribute or dispense artificial contraceptives against their religious or moral conviction."

The CBCP pointed out, however, that “the accommodation granted the conscientious objector... does not extend to emergency cases, as when the mother's life is in danger.” “When a patient, for example, is rushed to the emergency room who has, with the help of a backstreet abortionist, commenced the abortion procedure that is botched, although the fetus has already been destroyed, with the result that she is bleeding profusely, the health-care providers cannot refuse intervention or treatment on the ground of conscientious objection but must take all steps necessary to save the life of the mother,” the bishops' conference said. “This exception is based on natural law, which calls for the preservation of human life,” it added.

The Church is an influential force in the Philippines, which counts around 80% of its 100 million-strong population as Catholics. Abortion and divorce remain banned in the nation. The deeply controversial birth control law was finally approved by the Supreme Court last April 8, ending a 15-year campaign by the Church to stop state-sanctioned family planning coming into force. It also mandates that sex education be taught in schools. However, the law allows for moral or religious objections.

Conscientious objectors are required to immediately refer patients to another service willing to supply information or birth control, but the church disputes this. Father Mejia said bishops are set to organize seminars in their dioceses to inform government health workers of the law's provisions. "The Church recognizes that it is already a law...but it's very important for people to know their rights," Mejia added.

RikuoAmero

LeinsterDub wrote: »

If the pubs close will I be expected to work good Friday? I'd rather the free day off to be honest

This is something that has bothered me for the past few years. Where I work, the business closes on Xmas and Easter Sunday (nothing I can do about that), but for Good Friday, we're given a paid day off later in the year if we happen to be scheduled for it. I've never felt like I could justify being given that day, since I'm atheist. Good Friday is just another Friday to me, there's nothing special about it, therefore I don't feel as if I have to be compensated for it.
I understand the practical argument - just take the paid day, but there is a part of me that really wants to take it to management about not being given that day. Any thoughts, guys?

Hotblack Desiato

I've no choice in the matter as my workplace is closed on 'good' Friday. And do I feel the slightest shred of guilt about that - hell no - not while Ireland remains one of the countries in Europe with the least number of public holidays.

Sulla Felix

We're open on a friday but town is usually dead so we go home early due to lack of custom. I'd imagine the same would be true if we tried opening on xmas or stephens' day, or sundays for that matter.

robindch

Religious leaders in Saudi Arabia threaten to pray that Adel Fakeih, the Labour Minister, dies from cancer, unless he blocks women from working in lingerie shops.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/12/26/257217.html

The solution, it seems, might come from Russia - just ban lingerie.

Al Arabiya wrote:

A group of religious figures in Saudi Arabia have threatened to strike the labor minister who seeks to create jobs for women with “deadly prayers.” They threatened to pray that he gets cancer like his predecessor Ghazi al-Gosaibi, who died of the disease in 2010.

During a meeting at the labor ministry on Tuesday, about 200 religious figures accused Minister Adel Fakeih of executing a “Westernization” plan and asked him to ban women from working in lingerie shops within a month or he will face their dangerous prayers.

The ministry began in 2011 enforcing a decision to replace salesmen with Saudi women at lingerie shops in a bid to create jobs for women and meet the demands of female customers embarrassed to buy lingerie from salesman.

During the meeting, various religious figures successively attacked the minister and gave him little time to explain his decision and its benefit for the Saudi economy and for Saudi women.

One religious man told the minister, “I supplicated against a senior official at the ministry and he received the (cancer) disease and he died; this was because he began implementing the feminization decision,” according to al-Eqtisadiah newspaper. The man reportedly referred to previous Labor Minister Gosaibi.

Another religious figure told the minister that the government’s job is to employ women and not to decide where they should be employed.
Addressing the minister, another man said, “I am warning you, do not ignite sedition; we only came here to provide advice; your ministry has thrown our daughters in places that don’t suit their values.”

After a wave of attacks the minister finally snatched an opportunity to respond to the bearded men in front of him. He defended the decision to employ women, saying that women occupied jobs during the era of the Prophet Muhammad, adding that it made more sense if women rather than men are in charge of selling women’s lingerie.

The minister further told the congregation that they should take their case to court if they saw that his ministry is violating the law.

robindch

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/irish-priests-and-nuns-are-now-facing-extinction-30434849.html

Irish Independent wrote:

Data from an annual Vatican Library publication reveals that the number of ordained and professed people in the Catholic Church in Ireland has declined over the past decade.

The number of diocesan priests has fallen by 13pc from 3,203 in 2002 to 2,800 in 2012.

During the same period there was a drop from 2,159 to 1,888 priests who were with orders or congregations.

"We're facing extinction," said Fr Brendan Hoban, part of the leadership team at the Association of Catholic Priests.

"If the church hasn't priests the church can't survive."

Compiled from the Statistical Yearbook of the Church, the figures also reveal the number of women in the Irish church has declined dramatically too.

Thargor

Id say married priests is an inevitability now (not a hope of letting some stupid woman do it *spits*), it will be interesting to see them spin that, were they wrong all along or did god change his mind? Wonder if thats why the PR people told them they had to replace nasty old hitler youth pope with this friendlier model?

recedite

robindch wrote: »

..unless he blocks women from working in lingerie shops.

Seems like an ideal job for the gay men of Saudi! They can handle the lingerie without becoming titillated.

Mr. CooL ICE

Can't help but think of this