The Hazards of Belief

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/irish-priests-and-nuns-are-now-facing-extinction-30434849.html

Fr. Hoban wrote:

"We're facing extinction," said Fr Brendan Hoban, part of the leadership team at the Association of Catholic Priests.

"If the church hasn't priests the church can't survive."

I know this is kind of evil but:

SebBerkovich

robindch wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/irish-priests-and-nuns-are-now-facing-extinction-30434849.html

The article also points out...

[The] figures also reveal the number of women in the Irish church has declined dramatically too.

Umm... i wonder what could have brought that on...

norrie rugger

robindch wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/irish-priests-and-nuns-are-now-facing-extinction-30434849.html

African missions to Ireland

vibe666

how about the hazards of unbelief? :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IfwaY-F4SM

Aenaes

Muslims in China afraid to fast during Ramadan: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-28263496

Brian Shanahan

Aenaes wrote: »

Muslims in China afraid to fast during Ramadan: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-28263496

What happen's when you go up against a state religion in a repressive state.

And if anyone thinks that China doesn't have a state religion, you should really have a look of the meld of Mao worship and confuscianism they've going on there.

Sulla Felix

norrie rugger wrote: »

African missions to Ireland

Don't know how well that'd go down. The people who still attend church in this country tend to be a conservative lot, not sure how they'll take to it.

Cabaal

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Don't know how well that'd go down. The people who still attend church in this country tend to be a conservative lot, not sure how they'll take to it.

They won't like it one bit,
I was in a church once where a missionary was visiting and he was telling stories about Africa... To be fair they were interesting stories.

Still didn't stop around 10 people walking out soon after he took the altar.

Czarcasm

Cabaal wrote: »

They won't like it one bit,
I was in a church once where a missionary was visiting and he was telling stories about Africa... To be fair they were interesting stories.

Still didn't stop around 10 people walking out soon after he took the altar.

But how many people didn't walk out?

Turtwig

Several billion because they weren't in the church to begin with.

*Joe Duffy laugh*

Eeden

Kids from religious backgrounds find it harder to separate fact from fiction

Results from a study published in the latest issue of Cognitive Science suggest that 5- and 6-year-old kids from religious backgrounds judge fact from fiction differently than those with non-religious upbringings.

Nodin

Nasty shower of scumbags

"Christians were fleeing Iraq's jihadist-held city of Mosul en masse after mosques relayed an ultimatum giving them a few hours to leave.
Messages telling Christians to leave the city by today were blared through loudspeakers from the city's mosques yesterday.
The Islamist State jihadist group took over the city last month.
A statement was issued saying Mosul's Christians should convert, pay a special tax, leave or face death."
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0719/631783-iraq/

robindch

Eeden wrote: »

Kids from religious backgrounds find it harder to separate fact from fiction

Their religious leaders must be pleased indeed.

AstraMonti

9 sinister things the Christian right does in the name of God

TwoShedsJackson

I suppose this is really a benefit of belief but a born-again Christian who wouldn't shut up about Jesus at work has got himself €70,000 in unfair dismissal case

Brian Shanahan

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I suppose this is really a benefit of belief but a born-again Christian who wouldn't shut up about Jesus at work has got himself €70,000 in unfair dismissal case

You know what, if I were one of his work colleagues I'd sue for €71,000 on the basis that listening to his constant bull**** made my life a living hell.

And frankly proselytising to all and sundry when you're doing your job should be a sackable offence.

Oh and the equality officer is a ****ing idiot, who is incapable of carrying out her duties in a manner befitting the graivitas and importance of her role:

She said the ban placed on him from sharing his faith between 9am and 5pm impacted disproportionately on people of his religious faith.

So freedom of religion is the freedom to impose your religion on others in a public setting now?

[Mod: Brian asked me to edit this post because his edit window for this particular post had expired. He'd like to apologise to anyone who may have offended by his choice of wording. ]

oscarBravo

As I understand it, it's possible to appeal an Equality Tribunal finding to the Circuit Court. I really, really hope TCC do so.

marienbad

oscarBravo wrote: »

As I understand it, it's possible to appeal an Equality Tribunal finding to the Circuit Court. I really, really hope TCC do so.

It is essential they appeal it, unlikely though. Some precedent

Hotblack Desiato

Another bizarro decision:

http://bocktherobber.com/2014/07/speeding-charge-struck-out-against-religious-brother/

kylith

http://www.alternet.org/belief/how-i-went-being-southern-baptist-preachers-daughter-open-atheist?page=0%2C6

The daughter of a Baptist minister talks about her journey to atheism, and about her attempted suicide at the age of 11; not because she was depressed but because she wanted to go to heaven.

robindch

Nodin wrote: »

Good news...yes, it happens.

Sudan 'apostasy' woman Meriam Yahia Ibrahim flies to Italy

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28460383

BBC wrote:

A Sudanese woman who was spared a death sentence for renouncing Islam has flown to Italy after more than a month in the US embassy in Khartoum. Meriam Yahia Ibrahim Ishag and her family flew on an Italian government plane, accompanied by Italian minister Lapo Pistelli.

Her father is Muslim so according to Sudan's version of Islamic law she is also Muslim and cannot convert. She was raised by her Christian mother and says she has never been Muslim.

Mr Pistelli, Italy's vice-minister for foreign affairs, posted a photo of himself with Mrs Ibrahim and her children on his Facebook account as they were about to land in Rome. "Mission accomplished," he wrote.

Mrs Ibrahim's husband, Daniel Wani, also a Christian, is from South Sudan and has US nationality. Their daughter Maya was born in prison in May, shortly after Mrs Ibrahim was sentenced to hang for apostasy - renouncing one's faith - sparking global outrage. Under intense international pressure, her conviction was quashed and she was freed in June.

She was given South Sudanese travel documents but was arrested at Khartoum airport, with Sudanese officials saying the travel documents were fake. These new charges meant she was not allowed to leave the country but she was released into the custody of the US embassy in Khartoum.

Last week, her father's family filed a lawsuit trying to have her marriage annulled, on the basis that a Muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non-Muslim.

Nodin

"The UN says militant Islamist group Isis has ordered all women and girls in Mosul, northern Iraq, to undergo female genital mutilation (FGM).

UN official Jacqueline Badcock said the fatwa, or religious edict, applied to females between the ages of 11 and 46.

She said the unprecedented decree issued by the Islamists in control of the city was of grave concern."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434

Nuts at it again.

Dublin Red Devil

The only hazard to believers is themselves, They're own mental state. Belief is a mental illness caused by the brain being starved of knowledge, logic and common sense and being filled with nonsense, lies and fear

PopePalpatine

The problem is that the hazards aren't restricted to themselves because they can vote, run for public office and pour their money into lobbying.

swampgas

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

The only hazard to believers is themselves, They're own mental state. Belief is a mental illness caused by the brain being starved of knowledge, logic and common sense and being filled with nonsense, lies and fear

A bigger problem is that in a democracy, you have a situation where the law can reflect the delusions of the majority.

Czarcasm

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

The only hazard to believers is themselves, They're own mental state. Belief is a mental illness

I was going to let this go, but I really can't. You make a statement like that, and then you use this to explain it -

caused by the brain being starved of knowledge, logic and common sense and being filled with nonsense, lies and fear

Seems to me your own belief is based on being starved of knowledge, logic and common sense, which has led to you spreading your own particular brand of ill informed nonsense, lies and fear.

the_monkey

Czarcasm wrote: »

I was going to let this go, but I really can't. You make a statement like that, and then you use this to explain it -





Seems to me your own belief is based on being starved of knowledge, logic and common sense, which has led to you spreading your own particular brand of ill informed nonsense, lies and fear.

Which nonsense, lies and fear ?

Czarcasm

the_monkey wrote: »

Which nonsense, lies and fear ?

That belief is a mental illness. Here, this person has explained it well, it's well worth a read if you can make the time -


http://freethoughtblogs.com/brutereason/2013/12/07/what-this-depression-survivor-hears-when-you-call-religion-a-mental-illness/

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

"The UN says militant Islamist group Isis has ordered all women and girls in Mosul, northern Iraq, to undergo female genital mutilation (FGM).

UN official Jacqueline Badcock said the fatwa, or religious edict, applied to females between the ages of 11 and 46.

She said the unprecedented decree issued by the Islamists in control of the city was of grave concern."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434

Nuts at it again.

Maybe bullshitters at it again....

"Doubts are growing about the authenticity of an edict attributed to the Sunni Islamist group Isis controlling the Iraqi city of Mosul about female genital mutilation (FGM)."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28466434

obplayer

Czarcasm wrote: »

That belief is a mental illness. Here, this person has explained it well, it's well worth a read if you can make the time -


http://freethoughtblogs.com/brutereason/2013/12/07/what-this-depression-survivor-hears-when-you-call-religion-a-mental-illness/

Sam Harris explains...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWJfdRpHWuk&feature=player_detailpage#t=459

Czarcasm

obplayer wrote: »

Sam Harris explains...

I presume you're referring to his statement at 7:42 -

"This to me, is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe, by the billions, what only lunatics would believe, on their own."

Well all that shows is that Sam Harris as intellectually capable as he is, has a very poor understanding of mental illness.

I'll bet you haven't even read the link I posted though. That's OK, I wouldn't expect you should have to inform yourself, only if you want to.

I've probably dragged the thread off-topic enough now talking about mental illness. I just wanted to point out that belief is not a mental illness, and it's a fairly ignorant and lazy correlation.

However, this thread is not about the hazards of mental illness, it is about the hazards of belief, so I'll let it get back on topic.

the_monkey

robindch wrote: »

Sudan 'apostasy' woman Meriam Yahia Ibrahim flies to Italy

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28460383

It's good she got out, but it's funny , it reminds me of a psychic who was ripping of a family that James Randi exposed as a fraud - the family went to James Randi months/years later to thank him saying how grateful they were and they realised that he was just a fraud .

So you think they learned something - but then they told him that the found a new psychic - and this guys the real deal !!

obplayer

Czarcasm wrote: »

I presume you're referring to his statement at 7:42 -

"This to me, is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe, by the billions, what only lunatics would believe, on their own."

Well all that shows is that Sam Harris as intellectually capable as he is, has a very poor understanding of mental illness.

I'll bet you haven't even read the link I posted though. That's OK, I wouldn't expect you should have to inform yourself, only if you want to.

I've probably dragged the thread off-topic enough now talking about mental illness. I just wanted to point out that belief is not a mental illness, and it's a fairly ignorant and lazy correlation.

However, this thread is not about the hazards of mental illness, it is about the hazards of belief, so I'll let it get back on topic.

I'm referring to...
'If you wake up in the morning thinking that saying a few Latin words over your pancakes is going to turn them in to the body of Elvis Presley you have lost your mind. But if you think more or less the same thing about a cracker and the body of Jesus you're just a Catholic.'

I did read your link and it says nothing new.

The belief in things that are normally considered insane is definitely a 'Hazard of Belief'.

Dublin Red Devil

Knowledge is the biggest enemy of faith. Its the reason they burned books in the old day, because they knew If people gained knowledge, They would soon see that the word they were being preached was exactly what it is. Complete and utter nonsense. There aim is to keep people in a state of child like ignorance so they can indoctrinate people into taking this nonsense as reality


As a child you believe what you are told, Your only guide in life being the people who raised you, The environment in which you live, It's all the knowledge you have.

Losing ones religion is a possess, a person revolution. As you gain more knowledge and start to see this world for what it is, You can distinguish fact from fiction, sense from nonsence, Bullsh1t from reality

If you are an adult with a basic education, If you are of sound mind and you still believe in a supernatural being, You do have mental illness

Czarcasm

obplayer wrote: »

I'm referring to...
'If you wake up in the morning thinking that saying a few Latin words over your pancakes is going to turn them in to the body of Elvis Presley you have lost your mind. But if you think more or less the same thing about a cracker and the body of Jesus you're just a Catholic.'

I did read your link and it says nothing new.

The belief in things that are normally considered insane is definitely a 'Hazard of Belief'.

Your argument would be on very shaky ground if we were to apply that same rationale to behaviors throughout history that were normally considered a sign of mental illness.

Belief in a deity is not by any stretch normally considered a sign of mental illness. In fact only a very small minority of the population would consider a belief in a deity an indication of mental illness.

The correlation is made because of the stigma that surrounds mental illness, and it's nothing more than a cheap shot. In fact, apostasy is a far more abnormal behavior than belief in a deity, but you wouldn't insinuate that they suffered from a mental illness, because absence of belief is also not normally considered an indicator of mental illness either.

If the link I posted had given you nothing new, then that is an indicator that you are unwilling to be open-minded enough to accept new ideas and perspectives, and you are unwilling to have your beliefs challenged - the belief that belief is a mental illness.

I personally have always maintained that the beliefs themselves are harmless, but it is how other people choose to act based on their beliefs, and how they attempt to influence and interfere with other peoples belief that can either be helpful, or indeed as the thread title suggests - hazardous.

Czarcasm

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

Knowledge is the biggest enemy of faith. Its the reason they burned books in the old day, because they knew If people gained knowledge, They would soon see that the word they were being preached was exactly what it is. Complete and utter nonsense. There aim is to keep people in a state of child like ignorance so they can indoctrinate people into taking this nonsense as reality

There are numerous reasons for book burnings, but that's pretty much been proven a futile exercise as human beings were able to communicate their knowledge through other media, long before books were widespread, and even now people are finding new media to spread their ideas, despite some people's efforts to silence them. The thing is though, that while Dawkins has one million followers on twitter, the Pope last time I checked had over TEN million. It seems in the new medium that people are far more interested in what the Pope has to say than listening to what Dawkins has to say.

The Internet has more or less levelled the playing field, and yet there seems to be ten times as many mentally ill people as there are, well, sane people! Something clearly doesn't add up, right?

As a child you believe what you are told, Your only guide in life being the people who raised you, The environment in which you live, It's all the knowledge you have.

You were a child yourself once. Did you believe everything the people who raised you told you? Everything? Really? I certainly didn't, I questioned everything, and from my experience of children, they have minds of their own too, and they're usually fond of questioning everything. Children are FAR from the "template" human beings you're trying to put across.

Losing ones religion is a possess, a person revolution. As you gain more knowledge and start to see this world for what it is, You can distinguish fact from fiction, sense from nonsence, Bullsh1t from reality

That's the theory anyway, but the reality is far different obviously. I see the world one way, you see the world another way, and I don't claim to be any more knowledgeable than you are. Reality is only a byword for perspective, and having your perspective changed can indeed be a personal revolution. It can also be a source of great personal conflict. For some people, enlightenment works, for others, it just doesn't. If you try to take a person's faith from them, you could potentially do more harm to them than good. YOU might think you're doing good, but all you're doing is forcing your version of reality upon another human being. If you truly believe human beings can evolve, then you must allow their enlightenment to happen naturally, and it does, just look around you at all the posters here who were raised in a religious setting and are now no longer religious.

If you are an adult with a basic education, If you are of sound mind and you still believe in a supernatural being, You do have mental illness

How can a person be of sound mind if they have a mental illness?

Even leaving that aside (allowing for the fact that I may be reading it wrong, because it makes no sense to me anyway), I am an adult with a third level education, a number of qualifications in a number of disciplines, and I still believe in a supernatural being. What qualifications have you that enable you to state for a fact that I am suffering from a mental illness, and can you direct me to a source for your diagnosis in the DSM or the ICD-10, either will do.

(We'll completely ignore the fact that you have never spent any time with me or sat down with me for a chat before you formed the conclusion for your diagnosis of a mental illness)

obplayer

Czarcasm wrote: »

You were a child yourself once. Did you believe everything the people who raised you told you? Everything? Really? I certainly didn't, I questioned everything, and from my experience of children, they have minds of their own too, and they're usually fond of questioning everything. Children are FAR from the "template" human beings you're trying to put across.

From another thread...
Kids from religious backgrounds find it harder to separate fact from fiction

Results from a study published in the latest issue of Cognitive Science suggest that 5- and 6-year-old kids from religious backgrounds judge fact from fiction differently than those with non-religious upbringings.

TheChizler

the_monkey wrote: »

It's good she got out, but it's funny , it reminds me of a psychic who was ripping of a family that James Randi exposed as a fraud - the family went to James Randi months/years later to thank him saying how grateful they were and they realised that he was just a fraud .

So you think they learned something - but then they told him that the found a new psychic - and this guys the real deal !!

Hold on, how is James Randi a fraud now?

Sulla Felix

TheChizler wrote: »

Hold on, how is James Randi a fraud now?

No, they realised the psychic that Randi debunked was a fraud. At least thats how I read it.

Czarcasm

obplayer wrote: »

From another thread...
Kids from religious backgrounds find it harder to separate fact from fiction

That's hardly surprising. Dublin Red Devil has already pointed out that a person's ability to distinguish fact from fiction is dependent on their environment and the knowledge to which they are exposed. Here's another study -


Revisiting the fantasy-reality distinction: children as naïve skeptics.

Abstract

Far from being the uncritical believers young children have been portrayed as, children often exhibit skepticism toward the reality status of novel entities and events. This article reviews research on children's reality status judgments, testimony use, understanding of possibility, and religious cognition. When viewed from this new perspective it becomes apparent that when assessing reality status, children are as likely to doubt as they are to believe. It is suggested that immature metacognitive abilities are at the root of children's skepticism, specifically that an insufficient ability to evaluate the scope and relevance of one's knowledge leads to an overreliance on it in evaluating reality status. With development comes increasing ability to utilize a wider range of sources to inform reality status judgments.

Would you also suggest that we prevent children from indulging their imaginations and remind them that imagination has no useful purpose as it engages parts of the brain that conflict with reality? How far are you willing to go to impose your version of reality on a child's imagination?

Are all fairy tales, folklore and legends, all manner of fantasy and fiction to be eroded from society because they aren't factual, they are not reality?

That sort of ideology sounds far more hazardous to humanity than religion. You're talking about engineering a society devoid of imagination, creativity, inspiration, art, all forms of expression borne of the human mind that doesn't jig with your perception of reality.

In that society, there would indeed be nothing new, because we would all be forced to conform to accept that reality is just what we see around us, and nothing changes it, nothing can change it, and nothing will ever change it. We stop learning, we stop growing, we stop evolving.

TheChizler

Sulla Felix wrote: »

No, they realised the psychic that Randi debunked was a fraud. At least thats how I read it.

My apologies!

the_monkey

Sulla Felix wrote: »

No, they realised the psychic that Randi debunked was a fraud. At least thats how I read it.

Exactly, James Randi helped them by exposing the charlatan "psychic"


love this ..

Brian Shanahan

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

Knowledge is the biggest enemy of faith.

It's the biggest enemy of all totalitarian (Edit: Authoritarian may be a better fit here) systems, including religions. Because when people have knoweldege, the dictator has lost them, because the people know he's lying and more importantly what he is lying about.

Knex*

Can't quite put into words how badly this sits with me. Sad and disturbing, are among a few thoughts.

Two More New York Infants Given Herpes in Jewish Mouth-to-Penis Ritual

Brian Shanahan

Czarcasm wrote: »

You were a child yourself once. Did you believe everything the people who raised you told you? Everything? Really? I certainly didn't, I questioned everything, and from my experience of children, they have minds of their own too, and they're usually fond of questioning everything. Children are FAR from the "template" human beings you're trying to put across.

You still believe in the, plainly impossible, Abrahamic god, don't you? Clearly then you didn't question everything you were told.

No child does, because as an evolutionary strategy questioning those in authority before one is mature or experienced enough to formulate one's own theories of the world is pretty much a route towards species extinction. And some of that continues over to adulthood, how many people are still willing to take a "medicine" whether genuine or woo simply because a person (usually older man) in a lab coat and with a nice authoritative manner tells them it'll do them good? How many take vitamin supplements or the latest "super" food just because someone wrote (without knowing themselves, but projecting the false idea that they did) that these things are the cure to all (or at least the most feared) ills?

Czarcasm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

You still believe in the, plainly impossible, Abrahamic god, don't you? Clearly then you didn't question everything you were told.

But what if I actually DID question everything I was told?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=90136401

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88541826

No child does, because as an evolutionary strategy questioning those in authority before one is mature or experienced enough to formulate one's own theories of the world is pretty much a route towards species extinction.

I've already demonstrated that children DO question what they are told, they push their boundaries and defy authority all the time, because that is how they learn where their boundaries are. Questioning authority is actually how a person matures and experiences things which lie beyond the boundaries imposed upon them by authority. Think about a baby that learns to walk - the first thing they do is try to escape the confines of their cot and explore the world around them. They put themselves at risk, I know that, you know that, but the baby isn't particularly concerned about their impending extinction when they push beyond their own limitations. Rather than lead to a species extinction, pushing our boundaries in defiance of authority is how we as a species have learned to evolve.

And some of that continues over to adulthood, how many people are still willing to take a "medicine" whether genuine or woo simply because a person (usually older man) in a lab coat and with a nice authoritative manner tells them it'll do them good?

If that person has the qualifications and the experience that informs their opinion, then I would say it might be prudent to trust their judgement trumps mine. A consultant surgeon with 20 years of experience in orthopedic medicine is going to be able to be able to make a more informed judgement call on my condition than me who spent a couple of hours poring over a few articles I found on google. There's every chance of course he could be wrong, but that is the risk I have to take, based on my faith in the consultant's knowledge.

I wouldn't trust a mechanic's opinion on open heart surgery, because that would be silly, no matter how informed they think they are, because they would have very little experience and knowledge of open heart surgery compared to a consultant cardiologist who's performed the procedure on hundreds of patients. By that same token, I wouldn't trust my cardiologist's opinion on how to perform maintenance on my car's engine. For that I'll go to a mechanic.

How many take vitamin supplements or the latest "super" food just because someone wrote (without knowing themselves, but projecting the false idea that they did) that these things are the cure to all (or at least the most feared) ills?

Plenty of people do, because plenty of people won't be bothered to question what they're being told, but that's not necessarily a trait peculiar to belief in a deity, that's more a trait that is a hazard of human nature. Earlier in this thread we had obplayer link to a ten minute clip of Sam Harris who has a Ph.D in cognitive neuroscience, so you'd imagine the guy would know that belief in a deity is not indicative of mental illness, and yet, because he is also an anti-theist, he uses his knowledge to further his own agenda and perpetuate ignorance about mental illness by conflating religious belief with mental illness.

obplayer chooses to believe what Sam Harris is saying because it confirms his misguided belief that the two are somehow related, and Sam Harris would know what he's talking about, so does that mean Sam Harris' opinion should not be questioned?

Thankfully, there are some people who WILL pull Sam Harris up on his assertions -

Anthropologist Scott Atran has criticized Harris for using what Atran considers to be an unscientific approach towards highlighting the role of belief in the psychology of suicide bombers. In the 2006 conference Beyond Belief, Atran confronted Harris for portraying a "caricature of Islam". Atran later followed up his comments in an online discussion for Edge.org, in which he criticized Harris and others for using methods of combating religious dogmatism and faith that Atran believes are "scientifically baseless, psychologically uninformed, politically naïve, and counterproductive for goals we share".[78] In The National Interest, Atran argued against Harris's thesis in The Moral Landscape that science can determine moral values. Atran adds that abolishing religion will do nothing to rid mankind of its ills.

Source: Wikipedia

Brian Shanahan

Czarcasm wrote: »

But what if I actually DID question everything I was told?

If you did you wouldn't now believe in that being. It's extremely hard to believe in an impossibility when you properly investigate it, to the point that you have to actively deceive yourself as to the information you have acquired.

Czarcasm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

If you did you wouldn't now believe in that being.

Is it impossible for you to understand that because I questioned everything I was told, that I would arrive at a different conclusion to your own?

Many of the world's most eminent scientists disagree on many different fundamental points of principle.

It's extremely hard to believe in an impossibility when you properly investigate it, to the point that you have to actively deceive yourself as to the information you have acquired.

Hmm... I guess if we were to apply your theory to actual scientific investigation and discovery, say for example the history of human endeavors to take flight, then Wilbur and Orville Wright should have accepted that human flight was an impossibility which merited no further investigation (actually we could go back further and tell Leonardo da Vinci to stop dreaming, that Icarus and Daedalus was a myth and human beings simply don't have the musculature to support attempts at flight). It didn't stop them believing in what they were told was impossible, and I think you'll agree with me that humanity is all the better for their unwillingness to be confined by the bounds of other people's perceptions of reality at the time.

I'm not sure how much more leeway the Moderators will allow with this diversion from the main thrust of the thread, I hadn't meant to take it this far, so maybe if you like we could suggest the Moderators break it out into a new thread?

Hotblack Desiato

We now return to your regular scheduled lunacy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28464009

Astrology-loving MP seeks health answers in the stars


A Conservative MP has spoken of his belief in astrology and his desire to incorporate it into medicine.

David Tredinnick said he had spent 20 years studying astrology and healthcare and was convinced it could work.

The MP for Bosworth, a member of the health committee and the science and technology committee, said he was not afraid of ridicule or abuse.

"There is no logic in attacking something that has a proven track record," he told BBC News.

"I am absolutely convinced that those who look at the map of the sky for the day that they were born and receive some professional guidance will find out a lot about themselves and it will make their lives easier," he told MPs.

Eeden

"Proven track record" ???